I've been a gas/heating engineer 20yrs, and an F gas air con installer for about 15 in the east midlands area, I'm busy, busy. In all that time from my customer base I've had ONE serious enquiry for a HP installation, the client was a multi millionaire and knew the value of a pound, after weeks of enquiry and calculations on my part the project was dropped, because it was only the grants available at the time that made the install cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I fitted a boiler. I've been called to service non functional HP installs, and cant get the original (National) installers to answer my emails or even the manufacturers. Without OEM manufacturer training how can you diagnose a faulty PCB or inverter board on these things? It's complication gone mad. Servicing? Repairs 10years after installation? Even a large regional air con contractor I know has completely rejected moving into this field, due to the afterservice minefield. This reminds me of the "Green Deal" scam a few years ago, or Prescotts' Home Information Packs fail. Toys for the rich. Rant over👍

If the industry ever wants to get over the bad reputation heat pumps have they need to improve their installer training. This one is particularly bad physically but a lot of installers either don't know how to or can't be bothered to set them properly for maximum efficiency. Sad state of affairs but it's good that's people like you are showing what can be achieved👍

As annoying as it must be for you having to fault-find someone else's installation, it makes for a good video! Kudos for taking this one on and showing how it should be done.

I’m not a plumber but have an interest in renewables and love your videos. I find them all very interesting… Keep up the good work! 👍

Well done Szymon. Sometimes these things are sent to try us mate. I look forward to part 2! Good to see you at InstallerSHOW too, thanks for coming to see us. :)

Great, honest content as always. We're just doing our second arotherm plus install (our first with HGA) and follow your stuff very closely. Look forward to seeing how this one works out. I often think we should be showing more of these jobs; the ones where you go and remedy a bad installation. Something MCS should be driving really, to hilight the differences in good and bad installations since they have the biggest platform, in theory. Keep up the good work 👍

Very cool to see the how it's often done 😮 vs how it should be done. We're just in the middle of doing our own diy UFH and installing a little 3.5kw ASHP. Whole system is very simple, single zone, no electric actuators, no tank (heating only), no buffer, no volumiser, no diverter valves, just UFH loops and a diy towel rail (28mm copper). We have been round a few friend's 'pro' installs and immediatly see poorly insulated external pipework with zip ties and uninsulated ball valves all over. They also seem to be crazy overkill in complexity and size! Time will tell if our little install will be sufficient, but the heat loss calcs etc sugest it will be more than enough... Anyway, you're videos are super helpful, looking forward to seeing how this one plays out. 😊

I like how you methodically fault find. And I like the way you got on with laying the ufh pipes again without whining like most traders.

Ah man, what a cliffhanger 😲 I loved this troubleshooting episode. Makes for great viewing and very interesting 🤔

Very interesting video how your modifying the system to function properly. You explain very well. Waiting for the second part 👌😎

Enjoyed this and the button moon themed music. Looking forward to part II

Szymon great job, great work! 😊 I had similar issue with heat meter by underfloor heating. I got 200 mbar pleasure drop by 0,7 m3/h just on heat meter. For test purposes I replaced heat meter with 130 mm long 1” pipe and flowrate was as I expected 😅 (I didn’t read all of 150 comments, hopefully somebody else had a similar issue).

Great to see someone showing the complexities & applied problem solving that skilled trades do everyday.

Syzmon you are really knocking them out of the park with this one and what a cliffhanger.🤣 Given the labour cost of this project a new pump and plate heat exchanger is likely the ‘expedient’ next step. When is part 2 (and part 3)😀👍😉

This is why I don’t want a heat pump. I have picked tradesmen in the past, who despite research have under performed. Also my good friends have just had a heat pump installed. I will be interested to see how they survive their first winter. While some of the rads have been increased in size the downstairs uses existing micro bore. Also I can hear their heat pump from the opposite side of the street.

Great video looking forward to episode two 👏😎

A master of your profession

I'm not an installer either, but this is both very interesting to see and thank you so, so much for sharing this knowledge with the world. In the next 0-3 years, when I plan to be having conversations with various installers in order to select one of them to install a heat pump for my house, I know I can already ask/watch for things like: are they paying attention to the size of the existing pipes? Will they add insulation through the wall? Etc. Edit: since you cannot install the system for all of us: an checklist/"how-to select an installer for a heat pump installation"/"things to watch out for" video might be perhaps a nice idea? How can we "separate wheat from chaff" and not end up with something like what you initially encountered at this location? 🤔🤔

I like the format of that video ! Troubleshooting is really the best way to learn IMHO. I guess the problem is solved now 🙂 but I had instantly an idea to be able to exclude or not the heat exchanger : is there a port inside the heat pump to measure the pressure between the main pump and the heat exchanger (which should be in that order in the internal circuit) ? Or better : pressure measurement port before & after the heat exchanger, which allows to verify that the delta P across the H.E. is as expected or not ?

Thanks so much for this debugging session, I learned quite a bit! I would also love to learn what manual pipe bender you own, where did you buy it ( general brand is enough, ill look it up! all I can find are hydraulic ones for this diameter ) ? Thanks so much for your time!

Oh no...what a cliffhanger!😅 I'm an interested potential customer not a plumber...sir, I worry when I see scree being put directly onto those underfloor heating pipes...i wonder what on earth would happen if one should leak? This is an absolutely fascinating example of how one must be careful to get the right person in to do the job. An ordinary householder would never be able to tell if a hear pump was being fitted correctly without researching using your videos. Thank you for enlightening me. 👍👏

Mate if only everyone showed your level of technical and practical understanding there wouldn’t be the shoddy work around but sadly that’s not the case , can’t wait for part 2 👍

Nice informative video mate!! Thank you! 👍🏼👍🏼

Great Job as always !

This is amazing we need to be doing this in the states!!! Great video and lots of knowledge learned! Thanks mate!! One question is that heating and cooling an inverter?

Great video! Awesome editing!

This exemplifies just how complex heat pump installation is and why it needs to be done by genuine experts.

Oh I wish you were here in Washington DC. The Contractor is horrible! You should see my HVAC electrical upgrade from gas to electricity . The company caused a power outage to my home and blew out my spa turning the power back on doing his own heavy up. He didn't label the breakers as he took them offline. You could become a billionaire in 30 days. Stay away from Greenscape Environmental Services in Washington DC. My problems sound like this case. It's not the heat pump it's the installer. The guy says he is use installing on new construction homes. I wish he had came to that realization before he put my 1939 all brick colonial in a coma. Keep spreading the knowledge. Thank You

Best sort of jobs to improve problem solving skills. Going to be esential for all the bad installations that are out there. Company i work for are a service provider (service, repair and commission) for one of the bigger heat pump brands in the UK. Some of the standard of installs we see are shocking.

Hi Szymon, great video cant wait for this conclusion of this..im thinking of putting in underfloor heating connected to a combi., But i want to future proof this installation. So was thinking 22mm pipe for the underloor piping for a total area of 60m. I know this isnt your normal way for these videos ,but what do you think?

As a fresh engineer, i am intended to educate myself at heat pumps. I like your work. I suspected the exchanger too but it seems a lazy pump slowing the flow down.

Oh you left us on a cliffhanger! I'm sure you'll do it. What brand of diverter valves do you usually go for?

Looks a great job again

Great video!!! Have you got a link for the 32mm pipe cleaner / deburer?

Hmm nightmares 😮.. my assumption goes to DHW tank heat exchanger if it’s not stainless steel. I use to have same or similar problem with one tank coil . Or poor circulation pump. Cheers for all effort 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Looking forward to part 2

Urban and his team are an absolute credit to the industry. Great video as always. However what was the initial installation cost of the system and what was the cost of UFH and remedial works ? 20 grand and counting for a HP system that still doesn’t work ? For people already facing a financial squeeze this makes no sense.

Unexpected strainers can be a real nightmare. I've heard of issues with ball valves that have integrated strainers in get blocked and no-one knew they existed! Is there a way to measure the flow when you powerflush? This might help you find the blockage?

Im not familiar with grant heat pumps but just had a quick read on the manual (r32 grant aerona3) and saw that you can change the dip switches to change the output of the circulator, comes as default on maximum speed but worth a check if not already checked. I assume the poor flow rate is on both the heating and hot water. The pump chart shows a max of 20l/min at 12m head at speed 3 on the pump. To have rubbish flow rate on just the coil as well you would be right in thinking the plate heat exchanger on the outdoor unit. The smallest amount of debris will play havoc on flow rates, more so if it has a sika flow sensor like other brands. When refreshing the flow rate reading on those sika flow rate sensors you will notice the flow rate fluctuates by massive amounts which indicates debris within plate.

What a cliffhanger! Good luck with the investigation, excellent video. The Sontex heat meter display will also give you a reading of the flow/return temperature and a real-time readout of the heating power being delivered. If a heat meter was installed there's a good chance they was also an electricity sub-meter installed with the original installation. You should be able to calculate the COP of the unit in its original state by reading the kWh of heat from the heat meter and kWh of electricity. Do grant use an internal or external pump? What's the spec?

Great detective work and re-fitting of a poorly installed and designed system. Such a shame there are heating engineers out there fitting heat pumps to this poor standard and taking customer's money for it.

it is sad thing to see this video. Not because of results ..but because once you see real professional it is sad thing to know there are so many 'professionals' out there that they don't care or they don't know how to test system and they will just leave it as it is ..On other hand it is good there are professionals who knows what they are doing so there is still hope for some ppl :)

Pipe work sizing is really interesting. I have seen the Heat Geek’s videos on it. One thing I don’t understand about using 35 mm pipe. Usually the heat pump have 28mm connectors (certainly that is the case for Valliant). Why does the heat pump only have 28mm connectors if 35mm pipe is needed?

Have you tried turning it off and on again?

Weather dependant mode activated at all? Have you a way of checking head psi? R32 at 55 degrees LWT would require at least 55barg discharge psi. I didn’t hear the compressor ramp up fully and suspect a low gas charge could be holding off a pressure transducer possibly. Any backup heaters activated? Keep up the good work.

If you ever find yourself in Devon, pop in and you can advise me on what to get, obviously with tea scones jam and cream.

I overheard a plumber on the train explaining to a friend that he’d had a customer who’d booked the installation of a heat pump with someone else, and how he’d lowered the flow temperature on their boiler to 40°C to test for a week “because that’s all you get from heat pumps”. They apparently phoned him back the next day asking him to raise it again because they were freezing and cancelled the heat pump booking. Perhaps that plumber was the installer of this system? 😂

Hello sir,for 6kw heat pomp what size of pipe should it be?

So you’ve upsized the primary heat pump F&R to 35mm?? But you’ve “re installed” the Grant Mag One filter?? Well it restricts the pipe size to less than 28mm in diameter?? This pipe sizing is getting out of hand now. We have 13kw heat pumps on 28mm and running bang on. We have a 26kw cascade system 2no 13kw heat pumps through a LLH split over two zones each of roughly 12kw and primary pipework sizing is 28mm to LLH and each zone off of the LLH is of 28mm with a 25/80 pump on each zone and running with ease and no complaints of heating issues 🤷🏼‍♂️ These systems people are over complicating them for what they are.

Thanks

A good plumber must have a lot of patience ;)

Excellent plumber.

Is it fixed?

What a mess to correct. From a troubleshooting persective I would get an electrician to check if it is all connected to the specifications in the manual. I would also install a smart energy meter to see what's going on realtime. I don't know what type this is and what is controlling it, but sometimes a factory reset or a firmware update or reinstall does wonders for modern electronics. I assume the thermostat is calibrated and you have also tried turning it off and on again. And just maybe (however unlikely) the problem is not inside the heat pump, but a case of really bad luck with some of those pipes inside, as were moved and there was a lot going on with builders onsite. Can you do a flow test of the entire system with a pump instead of the heat pump? This will also prove to the customer that your part is working just fine. If warranty on the existing heat pump has expired, maybe just replacing it with a big Vaillant is the better choice if the customer can still claim some incentives, the newer heat pump reaches a much better SCOP and the customer can start using the property sooner.

Fit your gauges on the outdoor see what discharge pressure your getting . Work out your subcooling from your condensor. High discharge temp high subcooling would point to underperforming plate exchanger . Is there any Service settings you can access on unit to interigate the outdoor unit?

I think it's going to be a new heat exchanger or if the clients flush, a new ASHP

How many grands to fix, 5?

Gas boilers compensate for a lot of poor design choices. You do not get away with them with heat pumps. I never install such pipe sizes for that size heat pump. Rather impressive set up, my guess pump issue. Cheers from oz

Curious what do you have in your home? Do you have a heat pump ?

At this very moment, half our electricity is produced by burning gas. By the time that electricity reaches your heat pump almost two thirds of the energy within the gas has gone to waste. My heat pump is off from May to the end of October so it doesn't really benefit from solar from the grid. To cap it all, offshore wind companies are pulling out from installing more turbines on the basis that the costs have risen too high for economic viability. With electricity costing four times as much as gas I can't foresee being able to run my ashp next winter.

Crossed pipe ?

what is the circuit volume ?

Wow that installation was so bad. Feels like the property owner could have a legitimate claim or possible lawsuit against the original installers if it really had no chance of performing even close to what was promised. Not sure how that works in the UK though. Just seems like a huge waste of money for them :(

I guess you don't have bypass option between flow and return (on your new 35mm line) to open up and check the flow rate then. That would point you to the right direction (heat pump or system). Good luck to find out what is the issue. I'm looking forward to learn.

Szymon, can we have an update please? Did you find out what was causing the low flow rates?

Will be follow up video?

This type of install has to be worth the engineers time. If they're going to spend all this time working out a tailored heating system for a specific property you can expect to be paying those heating engineers a hefty sum.

Copper is a really limited resource we really need to use something else, why not use PEX?

I blame Grant, for making their aerona units ‘as easy to plumb and wire as a boiler’ 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ It’s a shame, as the Chofu unit isn’t terrible.

The easy cure and the cheapest . Take out the heat pump Grant vortex external oil boiler Job done 😂😂

Sad fir the homeowners. Cowboys will keep you in business mate.

An S-Plan is not the right piping configuration for a heat pump system, of that size. You need hydraulic separation.

Another poor grant heat pump installation - we go to so many that use the magic white box and running via an S plan setup.

Presumably the original installer didn't have the luxury of builders putting a slab in to hide the 35mm pipes and being able to install underfloor heating?? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is a bit misleading.

Your having as much luck as my underfloor unit in the us , it has a flow of just 24m s no one could work out why , that’s why after two years I went to an air to air system two units, one doing the main living room , the other upstairs in line us style duct and defusers in. 4 rooms of the annex, get this 40mm insulation and still only 15 c 1900 sq ft 2 zones The biggest waste of money I end up using solar and off peak to charge the 250 litre cylinder twin immersion coils both 3 kwh b rated cylinder, and completely empty twice a day due to household

Any news?

Very interesting but all I see is £s flowing out of the doors and windows! Heat pumps are for wealthy people, most folk can't afford this level of engineering.

Clearly, theres a problem with the install, but theres still the same problem after all of the work, Maybe if the "blockage problem" was fixed all this work may not have been nessercery, So lets await the next and hopefully final episode.

One day you'll get these systems for nothing because let's face it most people won't be able to afford it. When that happens it's going to be an absolute disaster. With installation teams expected to complete these in one day. It will be possible but corners will be cut.

So long as we use gas to generate our electricity I can't see heat pumps being relevant. Take nuclear, we'll over half the heat goes to waste. In France, during this heatwave, nuclear output has to be reduced to save overheating the local environment. I like my hot water about 60°c and its useless thinking my heat pump can do that economically. Here's a big one, heat pumps fester away full time in the winter, this means they are using a lot of electricity at peak times, which is really bad! The stupid things can't economically provide high enough temperatures to use phase change technology to ease the load at pinch points. If you look at the big picture, say we put in several million heat pumps tomorrow they would HAVE to use gas generated electricity at negative CoP 2 or 3! I tried to get an ashp, 7 years use, repaired and it was going to cost in the thousands. If I'd spent the £16,000 on solar panels and battery I could have made most of my own power during the summer, then, come winter, the battery would help the Grid at peak times which would save more gas than my wretched 16kw. ashp.

This is the heat pump equivalent of a 30kwh ideal logic

I'm not against heat pumps but they seem to be more problematic than a conventional gas boiler. I just think you risk creating problems for yourself by switching to a heat pump, for example the family in this video had a whole winter where they were cold. I'd rather keep my gas boiler and stay warm, even if it costs a bit more.

Prime example of why this is one of the worst jobs In the world. I do this job and hate this job with a passion. I used to love it, but the better I’ve become the more I hate it. Any apprentices watching avoid at all costs and go be a spark.

We had a new system fitted, guess what they use internal insulation The system was meant to be installed into an insulated shed. It is not and 100% cowboys 2:03

Name and shame the cowboys.

40mm plastic, jezz how impractical is that

Shame you don’t name the original installer.

Something is telling me that pump is goosed. Doesnt matter how dirty the system is, the pump should still be strong after 3 years. These units are terrible mate, i know you wanna do a good job, but heat pumps arent the answer. 12 kw gas system boiler would be perfect for that house with no issues

So all that expense work and you did no fault finding first. That's really bad as it is the heat pump and pump that are the issue.

Which is why nobody wants air source heat pumps.

What happens when 20 million of these thing are installed!

So you can spend thousands on a heat pump only to find out later it costs a lot more and doesn't work. Maybe wait for better options in the future.

Spend a fortune... get a cold house.... not a great ad for the industry really. Hope it has a happy ending.

Who would ever have a heat pump installed? They are so complex and expensive with so much more pipe work than conventional central heating, plus the ongoing maintenance issues. Without subsidies they just don’t work, and this country can’t afford subsidies for much longer.

I hope the BUS can claw back the £6k grant from cowboys who install like this.

Heat pumps. Another big con.

HP's dont work .. do not install them ! stick with gas and oil boilers .

Quality mate