Heir & Spare: Elizabeth & Margaret (2023) FULL DOCUMENTARY | HD

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Royalty TV

Royalty TV

Жыл бұрын

Heavy is the head that wears the crown, but heavier is the burden of being next in line.
The British Royal family is built on the traditional duty until death. For every heir to the throne, there is a spare.
Elizabeth and Margaret, two sincere sisters - but younger sister Margaret is really left in the sidelines.
The heir and the spare is really what concludes their relationship - they grew up to be opposites.
Despite being close during their childhood and teenage years, the looming pressure of the crown meant that Princess Margaret struggled to find a meaning in her role, and this, defined the sisters relationship.
They were both princesses, but only one could be Queen.
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Пікірлер: 645
@erpollock
@erpollock Жыл бұрын
This is a very kindly documentary. Whoever has produced it, has related the facts with compassion. That Margaret died at 71 and the Queen lived to 96 shows that the Queen led a life of healthy habits. Her sister did not. And the Queen always had the support of her husband, and Margaret did not, sadly.
@ksbesq8597
@ksbesq8597 Жыл бұрын
Her sister was tormented by her “2nd” position life. She was not unlike Harry.
@charliekezza
@charliekezza Жыл бұрын
​@@ksbesq8597Margret put duty above love. I don't think she was anything like hazbeen
@ksbesq8597
@ksbesq8597 Жыл бұрын
@@charliekezza Margaret’s # 2 spot drove her bat shit crazy! She didn’t put duty before love; she was told who she could and could not merry! The rules changed and the Queen gave Harry and Meghan her blessing; so, just stop!
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 Жыл бұрын
@@ksbesq8597 - Well, in a sense she did put duty before love. She could have married Townsend, but she would lose all her royal privileges. She chose not to wed him. Being #2 must be difficult, Prince Albert suffered as #2 to Edward VIII, Prince Andrew acted out with Charles as the Heir, and now Harry going bonkers. In reality, they should have been thrilled to have that life with relatively none of the stress. Margaret drank and smoked too much. She damaged her health. I think the smoking did more damage than the drinking.
@ksbesq8597
@ksbesq8597 Жыл бұрын
@@charliekezza Margaret didn’t have a choice! Harry had a choice and the Queen approved. Most of the mess about Harry and Meghan is built by the media; Harry’s book is about his need to set the record straight and tell his side of the story. It’s all been done before. The bottom line is that this is a sick institution whose wealth was I’ll-gotten through its theft of the common wealth countries’ resources and riches. It’s time for the relic to be put down like the parasite it is. William will be the last king of England!
@tonyathomas9540
@tonyathomas9540 Жыл бұрын
Elizabeth II was exceptional, rarely made mistakes she couldn’t recover from or learn from. She truly embraced her role and she did dedicate her life to service, a life well lived.
@morrisonscott702
@morrisonscott702 Жыл бұрын
Hey there! I came across your comment and I just had to reach out and say hi. Your perspective really caught my attention and I would love to get to know you better. Would you be interested in chatting sometime? Looking forward to hearing back from you!
@sheilabloom6735
@sheilabloom6735 Жыл бұрын
Her very big mistake was refusing to allow Charles and Camilla to marry, forcing Charles into a loveless marriage with a very young, innocent girl.
@emilinebelle7811
@emilinebelle7811 11 ай бұрын
@@sheilabloom6735 Yes, I agree but other than that she really did her best to follow the rules of her duty as queen of England. She really did her best.
@Breeanna73
@Breeanna73 10 ай бұрын
​​@@sheilabloom6735ive it a rest Diana was not an innocent girl she played the media and the paparazzi like a fiddle she used to ring them up to tip them off where she was. The problem Americans know f.ck all about her games she played. She was the first to cheat in her marriage to Charles and had many affairs with married men. She busted up 2 of her close friends marriages by screwing their husbands
@Cuhnievel
@Cuhnievel 9 ай бұрын
@@sheilabloom6735I think her biggest mistake was getting smashed by her cousin and marrying him
@LEGACYFOCUS
@LEGACYFOCUS Жыл бұрын
"Come on Margaret" Shows that Queen Elizabeth II was sensitive to her sisters feelings and understood her role as a leader/Queen. Wanted them to feel like a team.
@zzzbbbooo
@zzzbbbooo Жыл бұрын
Well, Margaret was still a child then. Elizabeth was four years older, she would naturally remind her sister of things she needed to do.
@cjosborne9430
@cjosborne9430 9 ай бұрын
@LEGACYFOCUS Amazing how you see virtue and intent from the elder sister nagging her baby sister. Elizabeth would have been MORE concerned that Margaret was holding her back and, by extension, the sisters were holding the parents back. Elizabeth has a penchant for being "on time" and views slackers as sinners. Your notion that she held Margaret in regard is made false by the ways she punished Margaret over time. Elizabeth gave herself much more leeway than she allowed for Margaret. While Elizabeth denied Margaret ONE husband for any length of time, Elizabeth awarded herself with TWO husbands for life. If that was not enough, the Queen was the head of the Church of England, which demanded adherence to the fundamental laws of the C of E, which included virtue, fidelity, and the absence of adultery and the absence of entertaining a second (common law) husband from 1959 until he died in 2001. Margaret's possible marriage to a divorced man hit the front pages, just because Margaret was the SISTER of the Queen who was head of the C of E. Yet, those same papers HID THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND when the Queen herself had a child with her lover and then kept the lover (Lord Porchester) on her personal payroll and traveled the world (Kentucky, Saudi Arabia, Ireland, etc.) with him, looking at horses to buy since she paid him to be her "Racing Manager" until he died in 2001. TWO SETS OF RULES! One for the governor and another for the governed!
@DavidStacey-hy9qz
@DavidStacey-hy9qz 5 ай бұрын
Lol😂 what a bad lie
@mariegemma5809
@mariegemma5809 3 ай бұрын
@@cjosborne9430Elisabeth never had a second marriage wtf are you saying 😂
@mgithaiga1
@mgithaiga1 Жыл бұрын
What a coincidence that all four family members died in the year ending in the number 2. King George VI 1952, Princess Margaret 2002, Queen Mother 2002, and Queen Elizabeth II 2022.
@magicmonkey1645
@magicmonkey1645 Жыл бұрын
The Duke of Windsor A.K.A King Edward VIII died in 1972. In 1992 Windsor Castle caught fire. That very same year Princess Anne got divorced and Prince Charles and Princess Diana got separated It appears that very year ending in the number 2 is a bad year for the Windsors. Maybe in 2032 or 2042 it will be King Charles III or one of his siblings or even a different member of that family. I think that they are cursed.
@mgithaiga1
@mgithaiga1 Жыл бұрын
@@magicmonkey1645 maybe, but nothing happened in 1962, 1982, 2012
@magicmonkey1645
@magicmonkey1645 Жыл бұрын
@@mgithaiga1 True. I think sometimes they get a break from it because nothing happened in 2012 either.
@mgithaiga1
@mgithaiga1 Жыл бұрын
@@magicmonkey1645 something bad can't always happen in a year that ends in 2
@magicmonkey1645
@magicmonkey1645 Жыл бұрын
@@mgithaiga1 Yeah, that is a good point to be fair. But I still think that they are cursed because for a few generations each generation has had at least one person that caused/causes conflict for the family, usually it is the spare but once the heir. First, it was was The Duke of Windsor A.K.A King Edward VIII then Princess Margaret then Prince Andrew then Prince Harry.
@Celisar1
@Celisar1 Жыл бұрын
It is the fault of adults if children don’t feel equally cherished and valuable. Why didn’t they give Margaret the same education as Elizabeth or a really good education in itself? And why didn’t their bring them up to be equally strong and supportive to each other? Lack of time or money?? 🤔
@kimmillard9445
@kimmillard9445 Жыл бұрын
Elizabeth was going to be Queen, no matter what, whether David (Edward VIII) abdicated or not as he had no heirs. The difference was that she acceded to the throne in 1952 when her father died rather than 1972 when David died.
@anyaw340
@anyaw340 Жыл бұрын
Not true. If he hadn't abdicated, it would've meant that he didn't marry Wallis Simpson, which would've meant that he was in a position to marry married a younger woman in her 20s/early-mid 30s instead. That woman could've produced several heirs for him. Elizabeth could've easily ended up a distant heir if Edward VIII hadn't abdicated.
@arielsclamshellbra
@arielsclamshellbra 7 ай бұрын
​@anyaw340 what we know of him suggests he couldn't have children so...
@kimmillard9445
@kimmillard9445 7 ай бұрын
​@tmw.. , correct. Most historians seem to believe HE was the problem and not who he was married to.
@tsunamis82
@tsunamis82 11 ай бұрын
It’s a bit ironic that when young the princess were dressed in the same clothes but weren’t allowed to have the same education. I resented my parents who didn’t hold education as being important so later on in life, someone asked me what was stopping me now? I went on to get a double major degree and a Masters. I was the first in my family to go to university. With 4 children, and as a single parent I could not afford to study for a PhD but learning is life long. I am still learning new things.
@nickyjones2709
@nickyjones2709 2 ай бұрын
Congratulations 🎉. I think that's marvellous what you've achieved, you should be really proud of yourself. It's massive and I'm impressed ❤🎉🎉🎉
@baylorsailor
@baylorsailor 2 ай бұрын
I'm glad Elizabeth was the first born. She was perfect for the role of Queen.
@kasie680
@kasie680 Жыл бұрын
I love that Elizabeth had a queens wave from age 10
@quiltfreak64
@quiltfreak64 Жыл бұрын
As long as Charlotte is living Queen Elizabeth will never be gone. She looks just like her at this age.
@lorifintel9784
@lorifintel9784 Жыл бұрын
Yes but I hope she doesn't feel that pressure growing up.
@LM-hv9xm
@LM-hv9xm 11 ай бұрын
Charlotte seems to have a good head on her shoulders. Like her great aunt Anne.
@bmbutler2
@bmbutler2 11 ай бұрын
She looks like her father who looks just like his mother. People see whatever the media tells you to see. I sometimes miss the pre-internet days. 🙄
@quiltfreak64
@quiltfreak64 11 ай бұрын
@@bmbutler2 the media didn’t tell me anything. Geez I see Queen Elizabeth you see her father. What difference does it make?
@cjosborne9430
@cjosborne9430 10 ай бұрын
@quiltfreak64 BALONEY! Charlotte has the LONG oval face of her father, with dark straight hair and dark eyes. Elizabeth had the typical "Windsor" heart-shaped face with soft ash curls and grey eyes. THEY LOOK NOTHING ALIKE and it is a fools errand to pretend. That is WRONG to both people. And WHY does "looking like" someone else even matter? It is their brains, beliefs, behavior, focus, interest, commitment and mannerisms that determine their character.
@tatianamechenici225
@tatianamechenici225 Жыл бұрын
She was so beautiful and maybe is not easy to be the second. After all, Her Majesty and princess Margaret were sister but different. That is what makes us all, unique. RIP for both
@alexandrasylviaaalto556
@alexandrasylviaaalto556 Жыл бұрын
The affection with which this documentary was presented, is not lost on the viewer. Thank you.
@DavidStacey-hy9qz
@DavidStacey-hy9qz 5 ай бұрын
It's a PR stunt to hide the disgusting and despicable truths of the royals
@h.huffen-puff4105
@h.huffen-puff4105 11 ай бұрын
I'm always astounded that these narrators think they know what the royal princesses thought and felt.
@theelitemanticore151
@theelitemanticore151 8 ай бұрын
Elizabeth is my Pride, Margaret is my Joy.
@user-ol8cz5up1j
@user-ol8cz5up1j Жыл бұрын
Princess Margaret wasn't just beautiful. She was intelligent, modernized, capable and sensitive. A loving and caring mother, a brilliant pianist. She was president or patron of many organizations especially for children and AIDS. Unfortunately she was bullied hard by the press, misunderstood and misrepresented. Of course she wasn't an angel... nobody is.....
@seansmith445
@seansmith445 Жыл бұрын
That is the first time I've heard her called a brilliant pianist.
@user-ol8cz5up1j
@user-ol8cz5up1j Жыл бұрын
​@@seansmith445 when she died her nephew king Charles, then prince of Wales, spoke on tv about her unique talent in piano.
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 Жыл бұрын
@@user-ol8cz5up1j - “unique” could mean just about anything, not that she was a brilliant pianist, it could mean she played with her feet.
@user-ol8cz5up1j
@user-ol8cz5up1j Жыл бұрын
@@mchapman1928 so her nephew meant that his beloved aunt used to play piano with her feet.... okay....
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 Жыл бұрын
@@user-ol8cz5up1j - A bit dull aren’t you. …..”could have” …….it’s sarcasm. The word unique can have several definitions…..some favorable….some not favorable. It means different.
@nickroberts-xf7oq
@nickroberts-xf7oq Жыл бұрын
The same sibling rivalry that exists between William and Harry. 👑 Queen Elizabeth 2 was truly beautiful.
@oceanfive8201
@oceanfive8201 9 ай бұрын
Yes but Margaret knew she would never be queen she just wanted more duties to do, she was loved her sister so much that she was asked why she looked sad at her sister’s coronation and she responded “I knew I wouldn’t be able to spend time with my sister as much” does that sound like harry to u😭
@Fightforyourdreams2024
@Fightforyourdreams2024 7 ай бұрын
​@@oceanfive8201Leave Harry alone! 🙄
@oceanfive8201
@oceanfive8201 7 ай бұрын
@@Fightforyourdreams2024 he’s a spoiled brat that gets special treatment from ppl like u so no I won’t
@patriziavalentini4055
@patriziavalentini4055 5 ай бұрын
Non erano affatto rivali
@lgbtes
@lgbtes Жыл бұрын
What really bugs me is how they denied education to Margareth (maggie as she were sold by the Establishment on the media). At least they could give her that and she, maybe, just maybe, could turned out different
@notever_everytime5074
@notever_everytime5074 Жыл бұрын
Aristocratic girls in their time were educated at home, except for "finishing school" or a year at the Sorbonne studying art, or something similar. It's sad, true - but that's the way it was. Even regular girls were only expected through age 16 at the time, going on to A levels (and especially to university) was considered unwomenly for a high born lady. They thought their girls only needed to understand how to run country estates, manage household staff, and entertain.
@zzzbbbooo
@zzzbbbooo Жыл бұрын
Well, Margaret really wasn't much of a trailblazer. She had both parents around her little finger - if she'd wanted an extended education, I'm pretty sure they would have given it to her.
@bmbutler2
@bmbutler2 11 ай бұрын
“Margie?” It is truly amazing how people write as if they really knew any of these people.” 🙄
@gabiiceschin
@gabiiceschin 11 ай бұрын
@@zzzbbboooshe did ask for it, her mother refused. In her words “ me and my sister were educated by governess and we married well, one of us very well”. The queen mother even admitted that was a mistake she made. Margaret was only aloud to receive an education to be a good lady and wife and that’s it.
@gemoftheocean
@gemoftheocean 10 ай бұрын
@@gabiiceschin ALLOWED
@margarita1395
@margarita1395 5 ай бұрын
Margaret supported her sister Elizabeth with pride and to the best of her ability. Who are we to judge! Let one walk in one's shoes for just one hour!
@fastgurrrl
@fastgurrrl Жыл бұрын
I'm a 54 yo Californian, and I appreciated this production. Ty very much.
@rosee9952
@rosee9952 Жыл бұрын
In my own personal thoughts, being spare would be more easygoing with privileges without hard responsibilities than heir. So, I would rather prefer being a spare. But many spares do not think so.
@anyaw340
@anyaw340 Жыл бұрын
Spares don't think so because, as spares, they are still the 3rd or 4th most important member of the royal family (after the monarch, the monarch's spouse, if applicable, and the heir). They are also next in line to the throne once their sibling ascends if their sibling has no children. They have many of the same responsibilities and stressors as an heir, but are often demonized and lambasted by the media because it makes a great storyline. It's a highly visible position, so it *does* come with hard responsibilities and expectations. Can anyone remember only William being spoken about, but not Harry? No, it's always been "William and Harry", and people have taken just as much interest in Harry as in William (possibly more). So, the "spare" is still a highly visible position with immense responsibility, and they are still expected to conduct themselves in a certain manner. There's nothing easygoing about it.
@carmenl163
@carmenl163 10 ай бұрын
In my country, the Netherlands, all the spares (Princess Irene spare of Queen Beatrix, Prince Friso spare of King Alexander and Princess Alexia spare of Crown Princess Amalia agree with you. They are all very grateful for the privilege and very thankful for their freedom. Maybe it's a British issue?
@isabels5460
@isabels5460 Жыл бұрын
Extraordinary documentary of the royal sisters. I have. no words to express my admiration for their loyalty and duty to each other and to their country. IDK if its right for me to say but i never felt sorry for a queen. QE endure so much in her life, but even then she always got up on her feet to go on with her labor. Princess Margaret was so beautiful and expiring, she was always there supporting her sister and mother, and i want to add that even though it was a life of privileged for her, she was never happy, she was more content i might say. Beautiful documentary and thank you for making it
@jeanmyers1787
@jeanmyers1787 2 ай бұрын
I don’t think she was at all content which why she drank and smoked to excess. She wasn’t allowed to marry her love and married a man who was bisexual and had many affairs whilst being spiteful to his wife. When she died, early and in very poor health there was no room in the tomb for her to be next to her father so she was cremated so she could be next to him. I think the man who truly loved her.
@annetteolson2428
@annetteolson2428 Жыл бұрын
They should have worked with Margaret to have a position that she could have fulfilled. That would have fixed the problem.
@ryanborder189
@ryanborder189 8 ай бұрын
The Queen was beautiful, Margaret was stunning. I read a book about Margarets hoity attitude and how she could be incredibly rude to people. Bizarrely she went up in my estimation-no one that rude could not have been intelligent and spirited. She was trapped by her positioN and frustrated by her gilded cage-and she could not give it up-she really was a great beauty for her time.
@louisemccoy9410
@louisemccoy9410 6 ай бұрын
Attitude that of Anne !
@jeremiahthomas2050
@jeremiahthomas2050 7 ай бұрын
Was so awesome to see Margaret support her sister all her life. Even to her death. She lived an amazing life, and is truly missed ❤️
@renatesailer-schattin8731
@renatesailer-schattin8731 6 ай бұрын
0ü 😊
@KeithBeez
@KeithBeez Жыл бұрын
The way Elizabeth held Margarets hand ❤️❤️❤️
@levent.a.7280
@levent.a.7280 10 ай бұрын
What's so unnatural? That's what all older siblings do
@KeithBeez
@KeithBeez 10 ай бұрын
@@levent.a.7280 The way she held her hand shows she loves her sister dearly. Don’t make this into something it’s not 💙💙💙
@cjosborne9430
@cjosborne9430 10 ай бұрын
@@KeithBeez No, it shows that Elizabeht was OBEDIENT in obeying her mother's orders when they were mugging for the camera. DO YOU honestly believe they did not know that they were being photographed? Their LIVES ARE SCRIPTED. They have total privacy inside the Palaces and Castles but they have to CONTROL what happens outside. WHERE do you think Diana learned the tricks and turned it back on them? You can't be so naive! (You have no working knowledge of siblings or sisters.)
@consciouscreator2526
@consciouscreator2526 4 ай бұрын
@@cjosborne9430The late Queen hardly show emotion in public. She wiped away a tear at Princess Margaret’s funeral. I think they love each other. So much that Margaret was fiercely loyal to the Queen even though personal life was unhappy
@ageeibc6029
@ageeibc6029 Жыл бұрын
But Margaret remain faithful till the end. Elizabeth loved her dearly. No toxic relationship between them although Margaret was the wild child & loved dearly by her father, George.
@denisebolton7191
@denisebolton7191 Жыл бұрын
Such a beautiful story.
@gayatrimatapurkar933
@gayatrimatapurkar933 Жыл бұрын
This documentary reminds us of grace beauty dignity worthy of respect.
@charliekezza
@charliekezza Жыл бұрын
They loved each other very much. The Queen became an incredible Queen and Princess Margaret became the party Queen
@cjosborne9430
@cjosborne9430 10 ай бұрын
@charliekezza Why does Margaret have to the "Queen" of anything? What is your problem with reality?
@charliekezza
@charliekezza 10 ай бұрын
@@cjosborne9430 because she was a party Princess, she was loyal, regal, totally committed to the Queen, the Queen mum and the king, she chose her commitment to the crown over her own happiness. Simply put Princess Margaret was a bloody legend
@Wildflowers516
@Wildflowers516 Ай бұрын
An amazing woman ! Trail blazer for all women, she was from a very different era then now . I don’t think there is another person that even comes close to HMTQ in her dedication and length of time serving the people ♥️ I truly hope she’s with her husband, Princess Margaret, her mom & dad; surrounded in love ❗️ You are missed ♥️🙏🏼
@tammihunter5913
@tammihunter5913 Жыл бұрын
Every time I watch these videos or see pictures of Princess Margaret in her 20s and 30s, I can't get over the resemblance my mom had to her.
@Ionabrodie69
@Ionabrodie69 9 ай бұрын
🙄🇬🇧
@JustAThought155
@JustAThought155 Жыл бұрын
The first 13 seconds, LOOK AT THE QUEEN MOTHER!!! Wow!!! We DO NOT see class like that anymore!!! Did you see her??? Fabulous!!!
@Christine16425
@Christine16425 Жыл бұрын
C est ce que je me disais aussi , la classe 👍
@therealsophiemary
@therealsophiemary Жыл бұрын
Isn't that something? She always looked like she was going on fashion parade. The way they would all show up in furs and dripping in diamonds to movie premieres..
@anyaw340
@anyaw340 Жыл бұрын
That has nothing to do with class; it has everything to do with money.
@therealsophiemary
@therealsophiemary Жыл бұрын
​@Anya W not true. People with money can still dress like slobs. Megan Markle is a perfect example of that.
@firdoshvirjee3592
@firdoshvirjee3592 8 ай бұрын
The queen mother was not a nice person,how can she live with the fact that her own nieces were abounded in a mental institution no visits,no birthday greeting o Christmas not also a card.She was cruel to Prince Philip. I suggest that she was no goody goody.She cared only about hersekf
@Fightforyourdreams2024
@Fightforyourdreams2024 7 ай бұрын
I'm 66, and the only thing I remember about PM when I was growing up, is seeing her on TV, at parties, glass in one hand and cigarette in a holder in the other hand.
@la__katangaise
@la__katangaise Жыл бұрын
Margaret was just radious and gorgeous😍
@jamescairns4051
@jamescairns4051 11 ай бұрын
I think Margaret would have been a fantastic author. Maybe she did write under a pseudonym?! I believe she could create and channel and produce wonders!
@Covers_Cuddles_Care
@Covers_Cuddles_Care Жыл бұрын
I think it is better to have more than 2 children so that the one who is the "Spare" is not neglected.
@Ionabrodie69
@Ionabrodie69 9 ай бұрын
Most families aren’t Royal or that important..so the issue of a spare is not an ISSUE.. 🇬🇧
@mariegemma5809
@mariegemma5809 3 ай бұрын
@@Ionabrodie69 in wealthy, aristocratic, or just extremely conservative it’s like this the first born has everything except showing feelings and emotions
@christophersermeno8631
@christophersermeno8631 3 ай бұрын
Favoring one over the other is incredibly short sighted....putting aside all the inherent unfairness and sibling rivalry it causes....had no one ever stopped to think what would happen if the chosen heir also abdicated, was mortally wounded...or came to an untimely end?...it makes good sense to bring up both the same....
@lauralutz4538
@lauralutz4538 Жыл бұрын
I think, Tony was a sex addict & Margaret was doomed to have a cheating husband no matter what she did. Tony turned hateful & bitter, that was a mean & childish & also unforgivable thing to become. He married into the RF to impress his aloof mother not for love of Margaret or of any intention to try & remain faithful. He impregnated a woman during the time of their engagement. Poor, Margaret but she never knew, I don’t think.
@eunicestone6532
@eunicestone6532 Жыл бұрын
I wonder if she knows now??
@kate_cooper
@kate_cooper Жыл бұрын
@@eunicestone6532 You know she died in 2002, right?
@lauralutz4538
@lauralutz4538 Жыл бұрын
@@kate_cooper Yes, Of course. Past tense .
@rubiborges8772
@rubiborges8772 Жыл бұрын
Se veían muy buenas y lindas Elizabeth y Margareth, desde pequeña Elizabeth tan prudente y bien portada, por eso su padre decia: "Elizabeth es mi orgullo y Margarita mi alegria".
@margaretdesaubin4456
@margaretdesaubin4456 10 ай бұрын
Elizabeth was just as beautiful as Margaret and wasn't an alcoholic or chain smoker she was also extremely spoilt by her father her attidude is similar to prince harry ....what about me ...
@RoyalDuggars
@RoyalDuggars Жыл бұрын
George VI supposedly said "Elizabeth is my pride, Margaret my joy" that had to rankle both, if true
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 Жыл бұрын
“My joy”
@RoyalDuggars
@RoyalDuggars Жыл бұрын
@@mchapman1928 typo
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 Жыл бұрын
@@RoyalDuggars - Yes, I realized that, but others may not have known the quote.
@olgicamiljkovic6113
@olgicamiljkovic6113 Ай бұрын
Oni nisu englezi oni su nemci
@annmolloy8600
@annmolloy8600 Жыл бұрын
Elizabeth, after her grandfather died, was always going to be heir presumptive until her uncle had children, which looked very unlikely.
@catarina0927
@catarina0927 Жыл бұрын
They were both beautiful, but Wow Margaret was very very beautiful.
@takohamoolsen2486
@takohamoolsen2486 11 ай бұрын
Princess Margaret was an extraordinary snob and could be very cruel. She was unnecessarily cruel to her grandmother, Queen Mary, claiming that she was a 'morganatic commoner' and would say it to her face too. She used to taunt her own mother, QEtQM and her own children for being non-royals as well. Even Diana and Sarah Ferguson didn't escape her sharp tongue. We, of course, know why now she did it.
@326lindsey
@326lindsey 8 ай бұрын
Why did she do it ?
@takohamoolsen2486
@takohamoolsen2486 8 ай бұрын
@@326lindsey Because PM was royal born, unlike her mother, grandmother and her children. She used to hold it over them all the time. PM had an inferiority complex, her sister was older, in line for the throne and she felt she was of no consequence, so made up for it in other ways.
@326lindsey
@326lindsey 8 ай бұрын
@@takohamoolsen2486 thank you.
@ageeibc6029
@ageeibc6029 Жыл бұрын
I love to watch the late QE2. I followed her closely during my student days until today. This is the 4th Generation royals T.Q.
@paleobc65
@paleobc65 Жыл бұрын
Wow! You must’ve seen a lot
@renaenolen8461
@renaenolen8461 Жыл бұрын
One of Queen Victoria's granddaughters were allowed to divorce around 1900.
@therealsophiemary
@therealsophiemary Жыл бұрын
These are very good. Thank you for uploading them.
@juliepeterson6639
@juliepeterson6639 5 ай бұрын
Beautifully done! Thank you!
@emilinebelle7811
@emilinebelle7811 11 ай бұрын
I loved this. Thank you for sharing!
@traceycosley4709
@traceycosley4709 Жыл бұрын
William and Harry could have so had this kind of relationship, queen Elizabeth n Margaret made it work. Until they passed.
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 10 ай бұрын
Margaret as she aged, started to resemble old Queen Mary, her grandmother.
@sazfretz1945
@sazfretz1945 Жыл бұрын
Lovely film. As a keen Royal family admirer, I think the deep hurt inflicted by Prince Andrew was also a factor in the Queen's death.
@cjosborne9430
@cjosborne9430 11 ай бұрын
@sazfretz1945 You may be an admirer, but you know none of the facts. No, the Queen was NEVER disappointed in Andrew; she adored him AND his father. And, she knew that Harry was NO RELATION to her, and was NOT blood, so she couldn't care less about the little zit.
@Ionabrodie69
@Ionabrodie69 9 ай бұрын
Andrew one of her favourites and Andrew was set up by a piece of American trash.. as i suspect you to be. ( American anyway ) 🙄🇬🇧
@murdochmclennan3510
@murdochmclennan3510 9 ай бұрын
@@cjosborne9430 It is absolute NONSENSE to assert that Prince Harry was not related to Queen Elizabeth. Get your facts straight instead of spewing garbage.
@olgicamiljkovic6113
@olgicamiljkovic6113 Ай бұрын
Baš je kraljica bila mlada
@madeyed2702
@madeyed2702 11 ай бұрын
A touching story of two sisters. They had an extraordinary life as Queen and Princess - yet in so many ways, they had a normal sibling relationship that filled with normal rivalry, happiness, sadness and camaraderie. It's fascinating to learn about the Windsor line, and how fate seemed to steer them all in the right direction. Started with the death of Prince Albert Victor, which led Mary of Teck to marry his brother, George - and started the Windsor line. I am not so sure if the monarch would survive had Mary married Albert instead of George due to the differences in their characters. Then you have Edward VIII who renounced his throne to marry Wallis Simpson, which forced George VI (another spare) to become King. I see similarities of characters between the two Kings & Q. Elizabeth. They were all calm, dignified, faithful to their spouse, loyal and dutiful to their country. I see the same characteristic traits in K. Charles too and P of. Wales. And they all had/have strong spouses who provide great support and comfort to them during good and difficult time. So hoping and crossing my fingers that the British Monarch will continue for a very long time. On that note, I hope Harry will wake up one day and take a good look at the wonderful examples of Princess Margaret and Princess Anne on how spare should behave and support their Queen/King.
@cjosborne9430
@cjosborne9430 11 ай бұрын
@madeyed2702 Faithful? Queen Elizabeth had Andrew with Lord Porchester. (Then, put Porchy on her payroll, where he remained (as her common law husband) until he died in 2001. THAT IS NOT FAITHFUL! The Queen hurt Philip AND allowed her awful mother (the Queen Mum) to berate Philip around the clock for YEARS and never stood up to her mother to protect her husband. THAT is why Charles and Anne bonded so young (when they were very small) to TRY to protect their father (Prince Philip) from the evil tirades of the Queen Mum. (The QM wanted her daughter to marry Porchy (aka,, the 7th Earl of Carnarvon, whose family owned Highclere Castle (aka Downton Abbey) and the Treasures of Tutankhamen (brought back by the 5th Earl), and sat on 5,000 acres, and had a title of Countess for her daughter. But, good King George VI recommended that his daughter marry Prince Philip, who was a pauper, but had much better bloodlines. When good King George died in 1952, the QM was a beast and blamed Philip for everything. After 7 years of abuse, Philip left for a long trip. The QM brought in Lord Porchester and Andrew was born 9 months later. (The Queen was then 33 and he was 35.) Philip, Charles, Anne, and later Edward, had to live with Andrew (the favorite) and his revolting father, who traveled the world with the Queen, always with the excuse of looking at horses to buy, for the rest of their lives. If you have not followed all the characters since the birth of the Queen Mum (1900) and who her parents actually were, there is much to learn about their situation.
@ronhatcher4692
@ronhatcher4692 10 ай бұрын
​@@cjosborne9430recall
@auntkaz815
@auntkaz815 10 ай бұрын
King Charles III was not a faithful husband.
@murdochmclennan3510
@murdochmclennan3510 9 ай бұрын
@@auntkaz815 Charles was unfaithful to Diana, but I doubt he's been unfaithful to his real love, Camilla.
@tinatin7949
@tinatin7949 8 ай бұрын
​@@cjosborne9430interesting version. I read another: Elizabeth, having fallen in love with Philip as a teenager, set an ultimatum to her father that if he did not give his consent to her wedding with Philip, she, Elizabeth, would refuse
@lorifintel9784
@lorifintel9784 Жыл бұрын
I dont understand why they both didn't get excellent tutors
@Bassey_NZ
@Bassey_NZ 3 ай бұрын
It was the era. Both Elizabeth and Margaret received the usual education for aristocratic young women at that time. They spoke French fluently, were taught a bit of geography, history, art history, dancing, music (Margaret was a very good piano player), drawing and painting (Elizabeth did some lovely art work as a young girl), how to ride horses etc. The only extra that Elizabeth got were some lectures in constitutional history because she was the heir to the throne. Both were under educated in terms of today's academic subjects. Margaret was very knowledgeable about the arts. Her son has talked about the art education his mother gave him and his sister, Sarah. Margaret did a lot of charity work and public engagements for her sister. She supported her sister and the monarchy all her life.
@LilyLamll
@LilyLamll 7 ай бұрын
I love everything about this video! 😍
@keynan313
@keynan313 11 ай бұрын
Imagine if he didnt abdicate, i wonder how different the royal family would have been today
@olgicamiljkovic6113
@olgicamiljkovic6113 Ай бұрын
Možda bi bila bolja
@marytv9362
@marytv9362 11 ай бұрын
Elisabeth era la regina vera e propria ma Margaret era regina di bellezza e stile... 💓
@mariaevans5793
@mariaevans5793 Жыл бұрын
Fate made the right one Queen .😑🇬🇧
@thornbird6768
@thornbird6768 Жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed this ❤
@mariaevans5793
@mariaevans5793 Жыл бұрын
Excellent video, great narrator and narrative !!!!🙂🇬🇧
@janet20257
@janet20257 Жыл бұрын
I agree 😊 Greetings from Ohio USA 🇺🇸❤🇬🇧
@j.t.1215
@j.t.1215 11 ай бұрын
Pretty good, but she didn't "soon" die after her mother; it was over 20 years later. God rest their souls. xxx
@davidpar2
@davidpar2 11 ай бұрын
The narrator meant that the queen died soon after becoming progressively unwell, which began immediately after Philip’s death
@gabiiceschin
@gabiiceschin 11 ай бұрын
Princess Margaret was so loyal and loving to her family. She was the spare who haven’t received an education, was bullied by the press and didn’t receive the permission to marry the man she loved and still she never said a bad thing about her life. She’s the true spare who suffered so much and still remained so beautiful inside besides everything.
@carmenl163
@carmenl163 10 ай бұрын
That's not completely true. She complained a lot. Everyone knew about how miserable her life was. She was very different from Andrew or Anne, who both also had to deal with the spare complex, but just weren't as victim-like about it.
@gabiiceschin
@gabiiceschin 9 ай бұрын
@@carmenl163 her lady in waiting wrote a book about the monarchy and she stated that Margaret was never the type of person who victimize herself. She said the only thing she ever complained was about not being better educated. You won’t find a single interview of Margaret complaining about her life or her family. If people think she was miserable that’s their own judgement, she never said a thing about it
@carmenl163
@carmenl163 9 ай бұрын
@@gabiiceschin The fact that there is no public record of her complaining doesn't mean she didn't do it. Also, the view of a dedicated servant/employee isn't the most objective one. If Margaret wanted a better education, then she should have got one. I put myself through 2 studies (while working a full-time job), so why couldn't she? I think this is typical behavior for her. Although I can't really blame her since she was brought up in a fairly useless institute that gave her the impression she was somehow entitled to the best and didn't have to take any responsibility for her life.
@gabiiceschin
@gabiiceschin 9 ай бұрын
@@carmenl163 she was a girl in the 40’s, that’s why. But as an adult she indeed thought herself and was very educated in the arts. Since there’s no public record of her complaining you and me can’t state a thing about it, cause we didn’t know her. But her biographies and friends always portrait her as women who hated victimization. Her lady im waiting and friends talked about her own marriage and the violences she was facing and how Margaret always gave advices to her about not crying, about standing up and looking for a divorce but to never put herself in a victim position cause that can’t bring any good. She being upset about her poor education is not a victimization, she educated herself but had the understanding that was unfair and a bit misogynistic not receiving proper education because she was a girl. But in the end she was very loyal to her family and never exposed them or harmed them.
@mrjay6483
@mrjay6483 Жыл бұрын
I miss the Queen
@inesica4285
@inesica4285 Жыл бұрын
You have Camilla so called "Queen" 🤣
@jamieryman
@jamieryman 10 ай бұрын
I suddenky cant use the 👎 which is strange. This is a lovely documentary about sister's who's dedication to duty & the Royal Family set an example. Margaret wasnt too busy kr self important to be a working royal & i didnt appreciate that as much until that ugliness the former royal caused.
@LJLe
@LJLe Жыл бұрын
I love the Queen but Princess Margaret truly has my heart ❤ they were truly close to the very end.
@la__katangaise
@la__katangaise Жыл бұрын
Me too ! Margaret was radious😍
@Ionabrodie69
@Ionabrodie69 9 ай бұрын
Then you’re easily pleased by surface beauty and charm… our Queen was wonderful .and rather like William and Harry im thankful our Queen was the eldest.. 🙄🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧
@la__katangaise
@la__katangaise 9 ай бұрын
@@Ionabrodie69 Don’t say bullshit ! Margaret was very intelligent too
@wcfheadshots240
@wcfheadshots240 Жыл бұрын
Strange how they always dresses the girls in matching outfits. At least Modern Princess Katherine dresses her children in a similar color palette.
@jfebacher
@jfebacher 10 ай бұрын
Just lovely
@soniami1936
@soniami1936 2 ай бұрын
It has been a grave mistake to educate only the eldest to be king. All princes in a line of succession must be educated on equal terms. Because it's never guaranteed that the first one will be king. Therefore, their siblings must also be educated in the same way, so that they are prepared and the crown and the family it rules are not at risk. This must be change.
@truecynic1270
@truecynic1270 Жыл бұрын
Tough birthright - beautifully handled but difficult
@Tom-wl2dn
@Tom-wl2dn 8 ай бұрын
I think if Margaret had been given a higher education she would've had a purpose in life as opposed to just being a Princess. Sadly she married an awful cheat and spent the rest of her life regretting it. Knowing how her sister turned out I think the Queen understood Harry due to Margaret's situation. However I'm certain she had no idea he would turn against the family. Sad. she died reasonably young at 71.
@NSMerryweather4771
@NSMerryweather4771 5 ай бұрын
I've often wondered why The Royals were not allowed to marry after either party had previously divorced when Henry VIII created church of England for exactly the point of being able to divorce and remarry.
@karinkesel5577
@karinkesel5577 4 ай бұрын
God yes!! I don't get it!!🤔
@rosiebottom3870
@rosiebottom3870 4 ай бұрын
He didnt divorce them - C of Aragon was annulled, A Boleyn executed, Jane died, Ann of Cleves annulled, Katherine Howard executed, C Parr survived him. With these annulments he became a bachelor again who had never been married. He wanted the catholic church to annul his marriage to Aragon (he had no grounds for divorce). Rome refused and so he broke with Rome to get the power to annul. The word divorce has been used over the years but its incorrect.
@gubjorggisladottir3525
@gubjorggisladottir3525 Жыл бұрын
Heir & Spare: What about Edward and Albert, sons of King Georg V or for that matter other brothers?
@aileenbuckle8062
@aileenbuckle8062 Жыл бұрын
What did I miss there? How could have Diana have left a wreath at the Queen Mothers funeral in 2002-she died in 1997? At 01:08:43 -it says miss you darling daddy-so- wrong tribute footage there.
@brigittebenjamin9528
@brigittebenjamin9528 Жыл бұрын
Her card is written, 'dearest daddy'...
@aileenbuckle8062
@aileenbuckle8062 Жыл бұрын
@@brigittebenjamin9528 I know~ but they were talking about floral tributes to the Queen Mother~ but showing footage from Earl Spencer’s funeral flowers.
@mrsandmom5947
@mrsandmom5947 Жыл бұрын
Charlotte is so much like Elizabeth
@d14551
@d14551 Жыл бұрын
A few health issues? King George VI had lung cancer!
@kendallnicol3338
@kendallnicol3338 Жыл бұрын
Discriminations among the members of a family is something really very bad. And sad.
@auntiegc7880
@auntiegc7880 10 ай бұрын
Elizabeth was destined to be head of state so of course she was treated differently to her sister 🙄
@kendallnicol3338
@kendallnicol3338 10 ай бұрын
@@auntiegc7880 oh, really 🤪?
@oceanfive8201
@oceanfive8201 9 ай бұрын
Did u not just watch what I did? Margaret got extra attention from her parents and the queen was left to herself, sounds like she grew up with more love, same goes for harry, Diana was said to spoil and give more attention to harry than William, if anything that’s cruel on the heirs.
@dr.debbiewilliams4263
@dr.debbiewilliams4263 Жыл бұрын
There is a woman who is named Margaret, who was a seamstress at Mt. Airy Church of God in Christ. She used to make all of the uniforms for the church. She should be featured as a designer. If I am not mistaken, she made her own clothing. She's absolutely amazing! Amazing! I thought about her the other day when I heard they were replacing Queen Camilla's designer. I have no idea where she is, but she and Ron Wilch are excellent. There's also a woman who designed clothing in Germantown named Danita.
@bmbutler2
@bmbutler2 11 ай бұрын
And what does that have to do with anything?
@edronc2007
@edronc2007 7 ай бұрын
What's your point?
@nighni459
@nighni459 4 ай бұрын
Wtf?
@aimeereal5122
@aimeereal5122 9 ай бұрын
Both Elizabeth 1 and Elizabeth 2 were the best Queens ever.
@olgicamiljkovic6113
@olgicamiljkovic6113 Ай бұрын
U čemu su bile dobre U jahanju
@janicepargh5155
@janicepargh5155 Жыл бұрын
Townsend divorced because of Margaret.
@sandragreed4098
@sandragreed4098 5 ай бұрын
It’s intriguing that Diana left a handwritten message on the occasion of the Queen Mother’s death stating that: ‘I’ll miss you dreadfully darling Daddy, but will love you forever’ I wish these videos were edited correctly!
@patriziavalentini4055
@patriziavalentini4055 5 ай бұрын
Una famiglia meravigliosa..unita
@mrskenscott9643
@mrskenscott9643 Жыл бұрын
Strange that Princess Margaret named her son David when she, the Queen, and the Queen Mother blamed the abdication of Edward VIII.. known as (uncle) David to the family.. caused the early death of their beloved father/husband King GeorgeVI.
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 Жыл бұрын
I think she may have had a deep sympathy for Edward VIII. She may have been able to relate to his predicament….abdicate or marry the person you love. Who knows really?
@Girl-rj3qe
@Girl-rj3qe Жыл бұрын
Even Queen Elizabeth herself named her son Edward
@AngeleenBrown-sc7sq
@AngeleenBrown-sc7sq Жыл бұрын
The queen Mother had a favourite brother named David who died in WW1 I think that was who Princess named her son after.
@s.h.7613
@s.h.7613 Жыл бұрын
It seems throughout history Royals only use about 25 names so she didn’t have many to choose from
@mchapman1928
@mchapman1928 Жыл бұрын
@@s.h.7613 - Meghan must have added #26…….Archie Harrison. That’s about as un-Royal as it gets. His name sounds like the manager of a XXX movie house in Liverpool. That was her first jab at the RF.
@tonemarieantonsen1597
@tonemarieantonsen1597 9 ай бұрын
I don't think Margaret entirely knew what being a Queen was all about it's a inherited burden. Margaret could have engaged herself in many causes as art ,fashion 🎨
@Carrick1
@Carrick1 Ай бұрын
We miss you Your Majesty. 😔
@katbrown1449
@katbrown1449 Жыл бұрын
A few bits of stock footage of the Victorian era streets. Hey, its fine with me, I love old pictures and films lol.
@josielawrence1970
@josielawrence1970 5 ай бұрын
I think the idea of a "spare" is very much overstated. You might remember that William IV had no children, and that is how his niece Victoria came to the throne. There's always someone waiting in the wings that can be installed as monarch.
@beverlyannjohnson9679
@beverlyannjohnson9679 7 ай бұрын
This is an interesting video as it brings the current history about the 2 current Princes so similar. History has a bad track record of repeating.
@wandah9468
@wandah9468 Жыл бұрын
They should have educated the girls together, though there would be only 1 Queen. I'd guess Margaret was as capable as her older sister of learning the ropes of the job. Putting myself in her shoes, I'd resent it, too. She wanted to be her big sister's right hand woman and she could have done it. I wonder how many times she tried and was refused. Ok now I'm ready for a drink.
@joanyow7952
@joanyow7952 Жыл бұрын
can't be two captains.
@bnic9471
@bnic9471 Жыл бұрын
I can't unhear the narrator's "King George the Sick."
@Mixedbaby76
@Mixedbaby76 Жыл бұрын
Princess Margaret looks like she would be that Royal member who will slap Meghan on the face
@ksbesq8597
@ksbesq8597 Жыл бұрын
Nope I bet she would have shown Megan the most compassion because she understood the anguish of not being able to marry who you want. Why all the hate for Meghan?
@PleiadesNebula
@PleiadesNebula Жыл бұрын
true. She had both the character and honour.
@demitasse22
@demitasse22 Жыл бұрын
Oh she absolutely would. They all would. That’s why they left
@leahengland6704
@leahengland6704 Жыл бұрын
@@ksbesq8597 because she deserved it. meghan the complainer is very jealous person! 🐍
@larchitecte5287
@larchitecte5287 Жыл бұрын
​@@ksbesq8597 Compassion like with Diana?
@michaelcraigjesso6043
@michaelcraigjesso6043 Жыл бұрын
This whole Heir and Spare that gets repeated is weird considering they were never in direct line to the throne until Elizabeth was 10 when Edward abdicated.
@marionbayley1351
@marionbayley1351 Жыл бұрын
Yes they were. Edward VIII had no children so his brother, George VI. was his heir & Elizabeth was next in line. Once a child is born into the royal family they become part of the line of accession.
@anyaw340
@anyaw340 Жыл бұрын
@@marionbayley1351 That was only a technicality. Edward was relatively young and unmarried, so it was a given in society at the time that he would eventually marry and produce heirs, and push Elizabeth down a few spots down in the line of succession. It wasn't as if Edward VIII had been married and still had no children after many years (which would've meant that one of the couple could probably not produce children). People expected Edward to eventually have children. No one expected Elizabeth to remain next in line, so the "heir and spare" storyline didn't apply to them.
@bmbutler2
@bmbutler2 11 ай бұрын
Just drives views.
@swampophelia2098
@swampophelia2098 3 ай бұрын
Oh stop with the heaviness of the spare……… they get a free ride for life, no matter how much they have it’s never enough 😊
@josepha.r5839
@josepha.r5839 10 ай бұрын
Margret (and perhaps Elizabeth and their father) may have thought her as 'natural' for the role of monarchy but I think it would have been disastrous for her and the kingdom. If her personality was much like that in videos, books, made-for-tv series then she would probably been worse off and miserable. Too much of a 'wild card'. Nobility and Government would clash. Better that Elizabeth inherited that role.
@emiB7890
@emiB7890 10 ай бұрын
Both are history👑
@janicepargh5155
@janicepargh5155 Жыл бұрын
Margaret was a poor judge of men.
@user-ol8cz5up1j
@user-ol8cz5up1j Жыл бұрын
Townsend was an excellent choice...
@Wareaglegirl9960
@Wareaglegirl9960 Жыл бұрын
Harry followed in her footsteps
@LibertyStation92106
@LibertyStation92106 Жыл бұрын
Poor judge of everything. No impulse control, arrogant, rude and judging Diana while Margaret herself brought scandal with the affair with Peter Townsend.
@user-ol8cz5up1j
@user-ol8cz5up1j Жыл бұрын
@@LibertyStation92106 her affair with Townsend wasn't scandalous...it was the stupidity of the establishment.
@demitasse22
@demitasse22 Жыл бұрын
Well she was practically a child
@costernocht
@costernocht Жыл бұрын
At 13:00 Elizabeth is described as having had "a mean left hook". Thirty-two seconds later Margaret is described as having had "a pretty good left hook." So I suppose we should assume that Elizabeth's left hook was superior to Margaret's, though the latter might have possessed a superior right cross.
@bmbutler2
@bmbutler2 11 ай бұрын
🙄
@DantePerez-wf7hl
@DantePerez-wf7hl Жыл бұрын
When their father becomes king, Elizabeth becomes HEIR APPARENT, and margaret is heir presumptive? The narrator mistakenly identifies the 2 heirs
@LynxSouth
@LynxSouth Жыл бұрын
No. Elizabeth was the heir presumptive b/c she was a female; if her parents had had a son at any point, he would have superseded her. At that time, only males could be an heir apparent.
@Rhianalanthula
@Rhianalanthula 4 ай бұрын
As that law has now been changed, Charlotte's position remains, and Louis is not placed before her.
@peterjones334
@peterjones334 9 ай бұрын
How wonderful this royal family/
@leahmichaelides4146
@leahmichaelides4146 Ай бұрын
Queen Elizabeth was the more beautiful sister with a nicer character. Margaret supported her sister unlike Harry who's trashed his family.
@lizzyloughton7501
@lizzyloughton7501 Жыл бұрын
if Edward had married a single aristocrat young lady Elizabeth would have not been Queen and Margaret would not have been the spare and Charles would not be having a Coronation
@meeeka
@meeeka Жыл бұрын
And no one in England would still speak English. Edward would have become king, that flat board of a broad would have become queen and cleared out the Crown Jewels.
@YvonneWilson312
@YvonneWilson312 Жыл бұрын
And if your mother hadn't married your father you wouldn't be here to write that comment. The whole of life is full of what ifs, chance encounters, choices and their consequences.
@lizzyloughton7501
@lizzyloughton7501 Жыл бұрын
@@meeeka it's heading that way now without Edwards help
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