Retreating Blade Stall/VNE in Helicopters

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Helicopter Lessons In 10 Minutes or Less

Helicopter Lessons In 10 Minutes or Less

6 жыл бұрын

Welcome back to Helicopter Lessons in 10 Minutes or Less!
Check out my ebook covering this and more! Get your copy on iBooks: itunes.apple.com/us/book/id144...
or on Kobo for Android, Windows and Desktop users: www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/heli...
Once again, I'm Jacob and in this video we're talking about Retreating Blade Stall/VNE. Before watching this video I'd recommend checking out my previous video Dissymmetry of Lift - Expanded ( • Dissymmetry of Lift - ... ) where I explained the different aerodynamic regions of the rotor disk. That is because this video builds off of that one quite a bit.
Just like how an airplane's wing can stall at lower speeds, the same can happen to the retreating blade of a helicopter. However, unlike planes, in helicopters this occurs in high-speed flight. In my last video I introduced the 5 aerodynamic regions of the rotor disk which included the positive stall region. This region is experienced on the retreating side only and is due to greater angles of attack at high forward airspeeds. The other regions include reverse flow, negative stall, negative lift, and positive lift. If a pilot does not understand the effects of flying into this condition, he or she could soon experience violent changes to aircraft pitch and roll as well as a temporary loss of control of the aircraft's flight path.
From here we will talk about some causes of retreating blade stall conditions. The first is excessively high forward airspeed. By this I mean operating at or above the speed labeled as VNE in your operators manual. VNE stands for velocity never exceed. This is the speed that engineers have determined that either retreating blade stall or structural damage on the aircraft can occur. Another calls is low rotor RPM. As you may remember from my previous videos on the lift equation, velocity has an exponential affect on lift and drag. Because of this, if NR (rotor speed) is too low, a stall condition can form on the retreating side of the rotor disk even easier. Too much forward cyclic can also contribute to retreating blade stall. This is usually a byproduct of too much for cyclic inputs to compensate for center of gravity being too far aft. This causes excessively high pitch angles at the 9 o'clock position which can aggravate a stall. Lastly, too high of a collective angle can cause retreating blade stall. Some manuals list high gross weight, high G loading, and high density altitude's as causes but these are major contributors. Helicopters can fly in all of these conditions without experiencing retreating blade stall. But when a helicopter attempts to fly at too high of a gross weight or too high of an altitude or with too much G loading in relation to collective angle applied, retreating blade stall can occur.
That said, there are a few symptoms as you approach retreating blade stall. The first being vibrations, potentially a vertical bounce as the blades stall at the 9 o'clock position. Depending on the control rigging you may feel and effectiveness or stiffening of the flight controls as well. These should be your first indication or hint to calm down whatever maneuver you are doing. Because the next will be the uncommanded pitching up of the nose and rolling in the direction of the stall side of the rotor. This could be potentially violent and resultant temporary loss of aircraft control.
It's best to avoid entering retreating blade stall to begin with. But if you find yourself in this condition the first thing you should do is lower the collective. This does three things: first it reduces angle of attack, next it reduces airspeed of the helicopter, and lastly it increases blade speed (NR). Next you should reduce the severity of the maneuver and adjust flight controls for normal flight. In some aircraft, more specifically those with semi rigid teetering rotor systems, the helicopter may attempt to self correct and you might not experience all of these conditions. But, if you continue to aggravate the retreating blade stall condition mast bumping can occur.
That wraps up retreating blade stall. It occurs when the retreating blade can no longer compensate for dissymmetry of lift and begins to stall. It is the most limiting factor for high-speed helicopter flight. Thanks for watching! Don't forget to hit like and subscribe below. Be sure to like us on Facebook as well. As always, safe flying!
If you're just getting started and want more information, pictures, and more explanations, I'd recommend reading the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook - amzn.to/2ifPlnZ. If you've already got a basic understanding, and want to further your professional helicopter education with advanced helicopter concepts, I'd recommend reading Cyclic and Collective, by Shawn Coyle - amzn.to/2ifQGLx

Пікірлер: 75
@CaptainHelisim
@CaptainHelisim 4 ай бұрын
There are some youtubers who have the incredible gift of being able to incite viewers from one video to the next in an incessant cycle of wonder and learning. Paul Harrel and Agent Jay Z are two that come to mind. And this gentleman. I continue to wonder at the vast array of special conditions involved in helicopter flight. This particular one is modeled to some degree in Microsoft flight sim but most of them are not and I lament that. For that non-zero number of people who mostly enjoy flight in a simulator but have the privilege of the occasional taste of the fruit of actual flight, it's a disservice to not model these various conditions so they command with some level of confidence and knowledge of limitations. I do a lot of fancy pants things in simulation that I have little to no idea if I could actually get away with, how close to disaster I am, etc. I would like to fly fancy pants, but within the limits of what reality would allow. And Microsoft doesn't do a very good job of identifying and enforcing those limits. I may be a very small minority of simulator pilots that care about that which is probably why Microsoft doesn't dedicate a lot of resources towards it. Anyway, all this to say good job, enjoying your array of lessons.
@vichy7661
@vichy7661 3 жыл бұрын
You are the teachers teacher, most could learn from your teaching abilities to convey information.
@MaxT1999
@MaxT1999 3 ай бұрын
Always keep coming back to these.
@ddtddt8493
@ddtddt8493 6 жыл бұрын
We’ll done Jacob. Informative and clear as per your habitual style. We feel pampered. Thanks a million
@timmfrey
@timmfrey 5 жыл бұрын
Awesome series! Thank you so much! Huge help
@shockerthreeone
@shockerthreeone 6 жыл бұрын
Another great video, Jacob. Keep them coming!
@seannforce2690
@seannforce2690 6 жыл бұрын
Great video. I really enjoy your concise teaching style. Keep em coming!
@thumperjdm
@thumperjdm 6 жыл бұрын
@Seann Force---Agreed. The 10 minute format is perfect.
@rogueace9897
@rogueace9897 4 жыл бұрын
I wish he would bring back his video, preparing SIFT as part of a warent packet and these videos have been invaluable
@Lucasbourgeois19
@Lucasbourgeois19 4 жыл бұрын
Just took the SIFT yesterday after watching all of his videos -- they're a great help. I passed with a 55. Good luck to you!!
@davidwallace5738
@davidwallace5738 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks again sir, looking forward to the next lesson!
@guasavecamachomontoya4967
@guasavecamachomontoya4967 6 жыл бұрын
Great video, thanks so much, I admire your Job, keep going, excellent explanation, I asked for this video, I was waiting for
@0justLook
@0justLook 6 жыл бұрын
Great Vid Jacob. Thank You so Much
@salehaljraid6499
@salehaljraid6499 4 жыл бұрын
Awesome as always sir.
@TheBeingReal
@TheBeingReal 2 жыл бұрын
Nice job on this series. 👍🏻🚁
@L3v3LLIP
@L3v3LLIP 3 жыл бұрын
Nice, 150 seconds and I knew why the DCS hind rewards going to fast with banking left into the ground :D
@crazedpilot1
@crazedpilot1 3 жыл бұрын
So I guess I'm not the only one hear for DCS then lol
@brucechu4763
@brucechu4763 6 жыл бұрын
Great video.thank you so much
@samwise9122
@samwise9122 2 жыл бұрын
I’m late to the party but these videos are a huge help! Thanks
@marklacy5011
@marklacy5011 Жыл бұрын
Great refresher vidro
@mariojorgepiresdasilva9956
@mariojorgepiresdasilva9956 3 жыл бұрын
Good vídeo ! 👍🏾🚁
@milesbrown8016
@milesbrown8016 2 жыл бұрын
Very well explained. Thanks….
@matthewdowdy3933
@matthewdowdy3933 6 жыл бұрын
Really like these videos great job! Could you do a video more in depth on the aerodynamics of autos? I've seen diagrams showing different lift components but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why an upward airflow would drive the blades if they are pitched up. Thanks and keep up the good work!
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 6 жыл бұрын
Matthew dowdy. Will do. An expanded version of autorotations is in the plans for future videos.
@matthewdowdy3933
@matthewdowdy3933 6 жыл бұрын
Awesome!
@sudeerakulathunga4645
@sudeerakulathunga4645 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks Jacob ..
@kumarnage4678
@kumarnage4678 2 ай бұрын
Thankyou so much..,I want many more about its transmission
@Striptouroverlasvegas
@Striptouroverlasvegas 4 жыл бұрын
Can you please explane the difference between negative stall and negative lift and positive stall and positive lift? Thank you.
@ronkukler330
@ronkukler330 2 жыл бұрын
Great lessons more plse
@valcye
@valcye 6 жыл бұрын
Very informative series thanks. Could you explain the counter rotating blades. All i can find is the cancellation of torque, Can they turn 360 degree? Auto-rotation? etc.
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 6 жыл бұрын
valcye. I've never flown or studied coaxial systems before. But I'll add that to the list of topics for research. Thanks for the feedback! I'll see what I can do.
@valcye
@valcye 6 жыл бұрын
Looking forward to it Jacob, many thanks for your lessons.
@abdulazizalrashed6604
@abdulazizalrashed6604 2 жыл бұрын
You are my hero
@chrisbutler4413
@chrisbutler4413 4 жыл бұрын
Could you please make a video about transient TRQ?
@MikinessAnalog
@MikinessAnalog 2 жыл бұрын
I had always thought the ONLY issue was with extreme high airspeed causing the advancing blade tip to go supersonic resulting in a loss of lift on that side, but I was wrong.
@michaelhegyan7464
@michaelhegyan7464 4 жыл бұрын
As a private pilot, unfortunately, a stall may have occurred in Sikorsky helicopter accident.. involving former basketball ball player, Bryant.
@flyjuice
@flyjuice 4 жыл бұрын
Michael Hegyan I doubt it.
@michaelhegyan7464
@michaelhegyan7464 4 жыл бұрын
@@flyjuice right.. before, I read aopa brief, pilot had over 8200 hours, however, should not have flown with visibility of less than three miles. Plus, he had no terrain tracker..deadly mistake
@flyjuice
@flyjuice 4 жыл бұрын
Michael Hegyan I agree, I think it was pilot error, VFR to IMC.
@notthefather3919
@notthefather3919 4 жыл бұрын
@@flyjuice i am not questioning anything, but why would the helicopter descend into the terrain at such a high rate is speed if not for a stall? What are some other potential causes of that?
@juliahayden9213
@juliahayden9213 4 жыл бұрын
It was not engine failure, according to the pleminary NTSB report. Belly was also shown just before impact. This is very likely...
@pabloroderopostigo
@pabloroderopostigo 3 жыл бұрын
Interesting information but, if you were to lower the collective after a violent uncomanded pitch increse due to the stall, the rpm would go crazy
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 3 жыл бұрын
It shouldn’t be an excessive or extreme movement of the collective. It should be just enough to reduce some angle of attack and reduce the severity of the maneuver and to reestablish control. But you could see rotor RPM fluctuations in the process.
@carlinsimpson7041
@carlinsimpson7041 4 жыл бұрын
thaaaank you for these videos!!! my instructor just doesn't know how to get some concept across in class and you can do it in 10 minutes. your literally getting me through my cpl haha. thanks man!!
@jeremylakenes6859
@jeremylakenes6859 Жыл бұрын
So. I don’t see where you explained why the speed induces the stall. Because the retreating blade too slow compared to the relative wind?
@kylefort7761
@kylefort7761 6 жыл бұрын
To prepare for my SIFT for the Army I have read the "Helicopter Flying Handbook" (FAA-H-8083-21A) cover to cover would you be able recommend which chapters I should focus my studies on?
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 6 жыл бұрын
Kyle Fort. I'd focus on having a clear understanding of chapters 2 and 3 which deal with aerodynamics. But don't stop at aerodynamics with studying. Check out as many SIFT test prep guides as you can covering the other evaluation topics as well to get a great score.
@kylefort7761
@kylefort7761 6 жыл бұрын
Well do thank you!
@tomasrosenberg3430
@tomasrosenberg3430 Жыл бұрын
Thanks!! :)
@asgbdhj
@asgbdhj 5 жыл бұрын
what about phase lag and how it's fully recognized at the 6 o clock pos. good video but you didn't say why the helicopter rolls to the left.
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 5 жыл бұрын
ashbdhj. Not many references described why other than stating the drag on the retreating side has increased dramatically. So the phase lag causes the pitching up while the drag causes the roll to the retreating side. Good question. Sorry I don’t have a textbook answer for you.
@dallas7984
@dallas7984 4 жыл бұрын
would the reduction of lift, hence retreating blade stall, cause the roll to the left? i mean the retreating blade is not producing any lift while the advancing blade is, so it rolls to the left and pitches up (due to gyroscopic procession)
@imachavel
@imachavel 8 ай бұрын
I feel like every pilot has a worst fear. Well maybe some don't maybe some say that their worst fears what everyone else is worst fear is getting into one of the bad situations a helicopter can get into. This one is definitely mine. I've never been able to explain why. The main two reasons though that I can think of why this is the most terrifying scenario for me the first one is that it's something we can't go practice. Everything else we can basically practice. I mean aside from this and mast bumping and Low G pushover. But can we practice Auto rotations? Yes. Can we practice hover autos? Yes. Can the instructor purposely leave the alternator off on the startup and then not allow the students to take off and then explain to them they need to go reread the Poh to understand why taking off with the alternator is such a bad idea? Yes. Can we practice IFR? Yes. Can we practice LTE? Maybe not exactly but we can practice way too much pedal in One Direction. Can we practice Hydraulics off? Yes. Can we practice Vortex ring state recovery? Absolutely. Can we practice getting lost on a cross-country and then finding our directions again? Yes. Can we practice bad radio communication? Well that one is practiced automatically just by making so many mistakes communicating. Can we practice recovering from retreating blade stall? No absolutely not. The other reason I can think of why it freaks me out so much is the scenario it involves you being in. It's not just critical blade stall. It's not just pushover. It's not just gyroscopic precession and a lack of control. It's not just being overweight and the disc can't handle the load. It's not just a lack of control of the helicopter. It's not just instruments telling you everything is fine and obviously the helicopter is not. It's not just an uncontrollable vibration in the helicopter. Now where is with most issues you can somewhat some of the issues simply that "this is the issue" and to recover from the issue you "mostly do this and a little of this to recover." To me retreating blade stall is "first this happens and then it gets worse and then this happens and then it gets worse and then this happens and then it gets worse and then this happens and finally what could happen is who knows maybe the helicopter flips over and you fall out of the sky or maybe you blade stall and follow the sky or maybe you lose control and the helicopter shakes apart or maybe you inadvertently pull back too hard on the cyclic and chop the tail or maybe you encounter a mast bumping issue to recover from it you clearly want to reduce your speed but you don't want to do it too quickly you want to lower the collective and then go aft cyclic but nice and slowly nice and slowly nice and slowly nice and slowly just reduce the speed reduce the angle of attack." It sounds simple enough but we obviously can't go practice it and to me it makes auto rotations seem easy. It's just a number of things that go wrong and the main thing is obviously you're pushing way too fast and the rotor cannot handle even lift distribution anymore the advancing blade and the retreating blade and the advancing are and retreating are are not coordinating and one side of the helicopter is getting left in the other isn't and before you know it everything is just going bad first this happens and then this and then this and then this and then before you know it to recover you got a very slowly slowly slowly do this otherwise this is going to happen and this and this and this and this and this. To me this is the worst nightmare scenario. To me. I don't know about other Pilots. I can't say everyone has their own thing that really bothers them. And by no means am I trying to say those other things would not bother me. No emergency scenario is something you really want to go through whatsoever if you can try to avoid it whatsoever. But definitely retreating blade stalls one of those things that keeps me up at night that I just think constantly "wow I wish I wasn't even something that could go wrong." Additionally I feel like all your intuition would tell you to do the opposite in retreating blade stall. I feel like whenever you're having a problem with the helicopter the one thing you want to do is either get forward motion or increase the RPMs or both. The engine goes out and you're doing an auto rotation try and get that kinetic energy going to try and get those RPMs trying to get that forward speed don't overdo it but make sure you have that power. Really high density altitude? Try and make up for it with power with forward speed and RPMs. To me retreating blade stall is like that one scenario where all the things that you would intuitively do to get out of a stall are just going to make you still even more. Okay yeah you can say the same thing about Vortex ring state. You can say the same thing about getting too much of a Glide or not enough of a Glide or getting critical blade stall in an auto rotation where you added too much RPM you had too much forward speed you lost too much RPM you lost too much forward speed. Okay you're in Vortex ring state and instead of adding power you want to reduce the angle of attack and reduce the power the more power you add the worst it is going to get. But once again I feel like those things are things you go in practice you go and practice those things and you realize from experience that in this situation you want to do the opposite you don't want to add too much speed you don't want to add too much power you don't want to add too many RPMs you want to oppose that intuition and create an opposite intuition did in this situation you just need a certain amount of RPMs and a certain amount of power in a certain amount of forward speed and you can recover from the problem. To me though retreating blade stall is like every bad thing that could happen the helicopters stalling the helicopters flipping over the helicopters potentially shaking apart the controls are not going in the direction you want them to because you cannot compensate for gyroscopic precession with a pitch horn anymore it's like everything with the helicopter is just messing up backwards. I suppose the scenario to recover a simple enough kind of like Vortex ring State you just lower the collective reduce that angle of attack and then you can go after cycling instead of forward in Vortex ring state. But it's like aside from the fact that the helicopter controls aren't doing what you want them to do I feel like retreating blade stall creates a situation where the helicopters also about to shake apart or something as though you've created ground resonance. It's just an unexplainable nightmare to me and of course if I watch my density altitude and I watch my speed and don't over weigh the helicopter then I'll never have to worry about it. But wow is that scary or what? The thing could just totally tip over upside down before you nose down to the ground uncontrollably as well as maybe many other problems. We must remember what creates lift with a helicopter Bernoulli's principle and even lift distribution. We must remember why dissymetry of lift is something the rotor system has to compensate for whether it's with a fully rigid or semi rigid or fully articulated rotor system. We have to remember the teetering hinges allow the blades to Teeter allowing even lift distribution we must remember the coning hinges allow the blades to Cone independently of each other allowing the blades to operate and continue to create lift while changing the disc directions with the cyclic and the pitch angle with the collective without worrying that the coning will be either be excessive and the blades will not be able to properly produce lift or that the blades will not be able to cone whatsoever and handle the disc loading the weight of the helicopter whatsoever. I'm sorry if I got any of that explanation backwards where it's more of a vice versa thing. But you know what I'm saying. Retreating blade stall to me challenges all of the reactions of pilot would have of how to recover from a situation and at the same time challenges all of the reactions of pilot would have where practicing the recovery is something that you can just never do. I guess just remember your VNE remember the weight remember the density altitude you're working with for the day and practice the feeling that if you think you're going too fast for one reason or the other try and slow down but first lower the collective and reduce that angle of attack before going after cyclic. And just pray something you're never going to really have to recover from it because you're never going to get into it if you're smart enough. And try not to have nightmares about it like I do 😢 edit: also increasing rotor RPM with the governor does not seem intuitive along with lowering the collective and going aft cyclic
@Junior-os4zd
@Junior-os4zd 4 жыл бұрын
Why would the nose of the helicopter pitch upward ?
@bangeek111
@bangeek111 3 жыл бұрын
Because of gyroscopic precession. Any force acted upon a rotating body will be manifested 90 degrees later in the direction of rotation. The advancing blade will be producing more lift than the retreating blade, causing uneven lift on your left and right sides. 90 degrees later means you are physically experiencing that unequal lift at your nose and tail. Thus, pitching up.
@sid5645
@sid5645 4 жыл бұрын
Is that flight footage in Alaska? Looks familiar! Also, great videos!
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 4 жыл бұрын
Na it’s upstate New York. I hear Alaska flying looks just the same!
@vichy7661
@vichy7661 3 жыл бұрын
@@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 from the Lake George NY region of the Adirondacks
@mehdi9933
@mehdi9933 4 жыл бұрын
What's the relation between the angle of attack. And collective angle I didn't understand ?
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 4 жыл бұрын
Collective really controls angle of incidence, not angle of attack. Angle of incidence is a mechanics angle whereas angle of attack is an aerodynamic angle. By increasing collective angle, you increase pitch in the blades, but depending on the amount of induced flow, you may not increase the angle of attack.
@mehdi9933
@mehdi9933 4 жыл бұрын
@@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 I need really to reopen my student books.... Hhhhh thanks for you
@josephgagnon2253
@josephgagnon2253 5 ай бұрын
I thought it was a slight roll to the right, mainly nose up, but also a bit to the right due to gyroscopic precession acting 90 degrees later, thus to the right. Anybody heard this before?
@andylikesyourkite
@andylikesyourkite 4 ай бұрын
It depends on whether it's a CCW or CW rotor system. The effect would be opposite on a CW system due to the right side being the retreating blade.
@henryleschen5141
@henryleschen5141 3 жыл бұрын
An excellent video but can you make your printing larger for those of us who have older eyes.
@unknowkskills87
@unknowkskills87 4 жыл бұрын
Hey, Jacob, Out of curiousity, Why dont you mention the blade flapping high on the advancing side and low on the retreating side??? This is was a pretty critical piece of my DoL lessons and yet its simply not mentioned here.
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10
@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 4 жыл бұрын
I don’t mention it in this video because I go over flapping more thoroughly in my Compensation for Dissymmetry of Lift video. I try not to put too much into one video so it’s easier to understand. Sorry for any confusion.
@unknowkskills87
@unknowkskills87 4 жыл бұрын
@@helicopterlessonsin10minut10 No hey dont worry about it! Ive been doing 8-10 hour sessions prepping for my CFI checkride(which btw your illustrations have helped an untold amount) so my brain is a little burnt, haha, and I didnt notice the 3rd video until after, I apologize.
@imanuddinyunus4539
@imanuddinyunus4539 3 жыл бұрын
During low rpm , as long as you don’t pull up too much collective , it won’t create retreating blade stall .. thanks 🚁👌
@zachbrenner9959
@zachbrenner9959 2 жыл бұрын
So, you're saying I SHOULDN'T exceed the velocity never exceed?
@praditpueng4423
@praditpueng4423 11 ай бұрын
Why turn right increase RPM.
@KBS117
@KBS117 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you. I say this is what happened to the kobe helo crash.
@themonkeydoo3
@themonkeydoo3 4 жыл бұрын
After deciding to switch to helicopters I also purchased the sportys helicopter add on videos and they are a complete waste of time in comparison to these
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