Great insights as always! It's so bizarre that Willem Darry never uttered a peep about this Dornish alliance, and even more bizarre that Dany and Viserys were literally left to beg on the street, when they allegedly had an entire kingdom behind them. The whole thing is just bizarre. You make so much sense in these analyses ☮️

I think offering marriage deal to Daenerys is just offering a fake olive branch. Dany turns it down because she's suspicious of the deal or because she doesn't particularly fancy Quentin... But maybe time will come when she needs Dorne's aid or their allegiance but Dorne isn't willing... They can simply throw that offer back to Dany's face, tell her they tried working with her but that she refused them. How passive-aggressive of Doran, if true 😅

Quentyn went through a gauntlet of trauma and all for nothing

Yours is the best new(ish) ASOIAF channel out there right now. I'm a big fan of In Deep Geek, LmL, etc., but they mostly stick to the expanded lore (great! cool!) while you take a hard look at the plot of the series itself. Keep up the good work!

Either Doran is reeeeeaaaalllyyy terrible at making plans, or he's not telling the truth. but why would he send his children into danger with a lie? that's the part i just cant grasp. like c'mon dude you're literally setting them up for failure (and death). either way he is playing too cautious and that will be his fatal mistake in my opinion. like a foil to Ned who was to bold and obvious. Doran keeps his cards too close to his chest, trusting no one else with the plan, and thats why the plan will fail

I'm in the middle of watching all of you ASOIAF videos and I'm really enjoying it. I like your pacing and voice and how you analyze the books. I'd listen to you talk about anything really.

Amazing video. I fully agree. Doran sends his kids because no matter what happens, it’s a win-win, or more of a win-win-win. First of all, if neither of them marry a Targaryen, House Martell has falsely presented itself as an ally to the eventually arriving Targaryens and is playing a long game. This was his logic in sending Quentyn. He knew it would fail, but wanted it to fail safely, as he knows Targaryen egos, and correctly predicted that Daenerys would see Dorne as an ally after this. Later, once he learns about Aegon, he tells Arianne the lie of wanting Targaryen restoration so that she will think she’s in the fold and will be motivated to act on his behalf. And he sends Arianne to Aegon so he can find out whether or not Aegon is real. If Aegon is real, Doran will support him- that would make Aegon his nephew. If he’s not real, Aegon still also thinks that Dorne supports him. And if he isn’t real, and Arianne returns alone, then he gains extremely valuable insight. And Arianne has proven her loyalty and efficiency.

I think what you're saying makes sense, but I also think it neglects the textual evidence. The obvious meaning of the subtext in his chapter is that the reason his plots are all failing is because he's been overly cautious in his scheming. He did want to ally the Targaryens to overthrow the Baratheons and Lannisters, but he waited too long and now all his plotting is come to naught.

I love the idea that GRRM told us that Doran fucked up on the first page: Like the oranges, his plan is overly ripe. He waited too long and his option have rotted away. Not sure if GRRM would go for an anticlimax, but it would be funny!

Marrying his son to the Lannister/"Baratheon" daughter was a smart choice, given the lack of heir to Lannister lands. And the Baratheons are neighbors to Dorne. Plus her gender makes her move to Dorne instead of them sending away a family member. Suddenly they have a claim to two other kingdoms while not giving away claims to Dornish lands. This could be a great spring board to exporting Dornish culture and giving precedence to a daughter's claim in Westeros. This is regardless of who sits on the iron throne itself. And if they support a Targaryen reconquest Dorne would gain the most, especially with a female regent.

One thing that’s probably good to mention: by sending Arianne and Quenton to marry Aegon or Dany, if either of his kids ‘win’, he guarantees a Dance of the Dragons. The way to prevent a Targ civil war is Aegon/Dany, take one out with marriage and that option disappears. It also is sending his kids to two sides of a potential civil war which is hella stupid.

I'm not sure what his endgame goal is, but the means to achieve it he already said himself: let his enemies kill each other while his own (family/subordinates) blood isn't spilled. Yeah, he's big fat liar, but in this one occasion he's speaking the truth because it makes sense.

I think part of the key to the mistery it's metanarrative: what's the tale that GRRR Martin is trying to tell with Doran Martell. I think he's truly seeking a Targaryen restauration; but he's trying to be nice guy about it, so it's total foil for littlefinger, who's the other side of the coin: the manipulative heartless bastard. So Doran Martell it's the study of the cerebral, careful guy who wants to do his best, without killing more people than needed or having collateral damage.

Ah yes the dornish master plan.

your channel is great, it's always good to find fresh asoif content

I always think the theories people come up with about how Doran is actually a galaxy brained genius are entertaining

Saying Doran Martell wants to restore Targaryen dynasty is like saying that Vladimir Lenin fights for the Romanovs.

Arranging marriages through intermediaries was acceptable courtly behaviour in Medieval Europe. Catherine of Aragorn was engaged to Arthur Tudor (Henry VII's eldest son) without the pair ever meeting, as was Anne of Cleves to Henry VIII. While neither of those marriages were successful, they were seen as legitimate. And breaking an engagement was extremely serious - Richard III claimed his nephew Edward V was illegitimate because his father was engaged to somebody else prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville (Edward V's mother).

He doesn't necessarily want a Targaeryan restoration. He wants revenge on the Lannisters. If that means putting a Targaeryan on the throne than so be it.

Regarding Doran sending others to make pacts for him, I feel like his mobility issues should be taken into account here. Off the top of my head, I dont think hes capable of moving such long distances so that's why hes forced to send Arianne and Quentyn for him. As for Oberyn, I'm not sure if Doran had the same health issues at the time but I wonder if he felt it would raise too many eyebrows if he traveled himself all the way to Essos, where everyone knew the remaining Targs were.

I think this is very strong, also interesting. Thankyou

Please go to Preston Jacob's channel and watch his Dornish Master plan, and Deeper Drone playlist. He covers this extremely well.

Depending on which side you take but both sides agree Rhagar cared about Elia because he didn’t try and have his 3rd child with her, knowing it would kill her

I don’t know what Doran’s intentions are, but I feel like maybe his intention was, as suggested, gaining a form of truce/ally ship with the targaryens. Because from the information we have. It seems like a basic négociation tactic. Ask for more to get to what you really want. Quentin ask for mariage, she says no, but because she doesn’t want him as an enemy, she offers something else. Like a promise? (Or a trust to then potentially stab them in the back, she wouldn’t suspect the family whose simping for her) And I wonder if you think that Oberyn was also left in the dark? Or was only told a half truth. If I remember correctly, book Ellaria Sand called him out on his secrecy and was conflicted with Doran’s « reveals ». Anyway, thanks for your vidéos! You might get me to read the books again! 😊

You make some good points-- but I think your contention that marriages and treaties can *only* be made by Doran Martell personally is incorrect. Rulers sending ambassadors to other courts to treat with them is an established fact in European history, so we can only assume this to be the case in Westeros and Essos as well. So Oberyn and Quentyn definitely could have made pacts on Doran's behalf *if* Doran had given them the authority to do so. He doesn't seem to have in Quentyn's case, which supports your theory, so my objection is basically on pedantic grounds. Not hatin', just sayin'. I agree that Doran is unlikely to be all "Rah, rah, Team Targaryen" in light of his history with the family. However, another KZfaqr made a persuasive case that Rhaegar had colluded with Doran to negotiate an annulment of his marriage to Elia before marrying Lyanna. This video actually has solidified that for me, because you've pointed out how much more real power Elia would have had as a princess in Dorne compared to being queen in Westeros. Rather than being the poor, cast-off wife fanon has painted her as, Elia might have been eager to end her marriage to Rhaegar and get away from her crazy father-in-law. You've also made me wonder if Doran Martell straight-up tried to kill off his son Quentyn by sending him on an impossible mission with almost no resources or support. Seriously, he could have disguised Quentyn as a wealthy merchant so that he could have traveled more safely and comfortably, and arguably just as discreetly, without torquing off a famously-ruthless mercenary company. Again, just sayin'.

I think all the marriage alliances are just plays at loyalty. He would never ship off his daughter to a son of the mad king after what happened last time. And quentins marriage proposal seems so bad it must be intentional. I think doran arranged them expecting them to fail and fall through but to keep the idea that dorne is supportive and is trying to ally with the targaryens. They would never see a dagger from the house that tried to ally itself twice with the targaryens with marriages

Dany laughs at Quentin cause he's the frog prince and makes a comment on it, then asks him, "Are you enchanted my prince?" Let's not forget she's still a teenage girl who is understandably attracted to the sexy bad boy men around her, Quentin is no Dhaario. Secondly, their heir and prince of Dorne comes to offer a marriage proposal that is certainly legally binding and Quentinn has been given authority by his liege father to do so. An example could be when Queen Rhaenya gave leave to her firstborn son to negotiate an alliance with the Starks, during the Dance of the Dragons; same idea.

Looks like someone saw Preston's Deeper Dorne series. I agree the marriage pact is very suspect and it is quite likely fraudulent to some degree. So if Doran isn't looking for a Targaryen restoration, it is difficult to answer what he really wants, and why he is even putting up this pro-Targ front in the first place. None of the other Great Houses are putting up a pro-Targ pretence, so what does this give the Martells? It is really strange.

Whatever his plan maybe, It'll never ever stop puzzling me why Doran would send an unprepared Quentyn on such an obviously silly and dangerous quest that was so clearly doomed to fail, and Doran should've known that. YES, Doran is known to be a little too cautious,and it'll probably be his downfall, but he's also considered to be one of the smartest players out there, whilst The Quentyn Quest shows the exact opposite. Would he really sacrifice his own son? And whatever for?

They might have asked whether their sister was OKAY with Rhaegar having another wife when she could not have any more children - as long as her kids were still legit.

The Sand Snakes are destroying their branch of House Martell while Doran is literally playing 4D chess.

Love channel

So things to keep in mind: Rhaenys is still alive, she is hiding as Oberyn’s bastard, the Sphinx (which is a clue itself to read Oedipus about Daenerys/Aegon), Sarella/Alleras. The real Quentyn left with his mother, this Quentyn was fostered in the Seven’s side of Dorne, sent on a mission with nobody loyal to “Dornish law” side of Dorne. The only reason Elia didn’t work out is that Robert got lucky in his rebellion, otherwise Rhaegar would have removed Aerys peacefully and Aegon(Griff) would be future king, maybe even Rhaenys (likely Elia and Arthur’s kid) if Rhaegar was assassinated and Elia pulled a Cercei-like coup. Elia raising Aegon to respect Dornish law might influence him to cede throne to a all Dornish Queen, Rhaenys. Aerys wasn’t really mad, probably just a monarch. He was right Rhaenys was not a Targaryen, right Rhaegar was planning a coup, probably eventually right about Rhaella cheating, and right about Tywin and the Lannisters; his former best friend and Aerys most trusted actual son Jaime. All things to make him justifiably paranoid.

Dr Bashir!

What if Dorian Martell is trying to bring back the Blackfyre's and end House Targaryen with Aegon?

I mean I agree Doran’s plans are incredibly stupid and doomed to fail, but if as you and many others are proposing he was actually fully aware of the dangers involved and actually planned for them to fail, it just seems even more stupid for him to actually send his children on these missions and why doesn’t he at least give them hints as to his true motives, like the best outcome would obviously be them returning without success, but the others are an alliance with the Targaryens, which he doesn’t actually want and would have to find a way back out of, or far worse and more likely, his children end up dead or hostages to be used against him, like if Doran was actually this galaxy brained individual, why would he actually send his children on these suicide missions, to me the only thing that even remotely makes sense is that he actually wants them to succeed

I really don't trust Doran. He has a habit of giving jobs to his family members that end up getting them killed because of their personalities. Which means he is either a lot stupider then he tries to make himself out to be, or he is actively trying to get most of his family killed. And until he proves himself to be an idiot I am just going to assume that it's the second option. Granted I think most of Salty(?) Dornish to be untrustworthy. Almost all the stories in their history are about them not caring about the common people. Also for house Martell, why is it that they go on and on about Dorne not really having much natural resources but they always dressed in silks or cloth of gold. They have to be getting money from somewhere. Given there seemingly close connections to the free cities of Essos, I am almost sure that the Martell's are part of the slave trade. Though I really want more proof one way or the other before I really decide that is what is going on And the story about Nymeria doesn't make much sense to me. If they where fleeing the Valyrians how did they sail right past them instead of going north even if that did mean having to leave their ships earlier then they did. If they where mostly non warriors why did everywhere they land treat them like they where the stronger force and back down giving gifts and trying not to fight. So besides the Martell's and the Rhoynish really not seeming to be trustworthy do I actually have a thought about what Doran is trying to do? Well for one thing I think that Quentyn was a lot more told to get a Dragon then he was to get Danny. It is possible that he Nettles one of the Dragons and the burnt body is someone else. I am not sure how much I believe that theory but it does seem very possible. However I think that Danny is going to come back to find both the Dragons have been taken to Westeros without her. Who stole them and how is really up in the air. As for Arianne I think her story is really going to mirror her brothers. As for what Doran is doing, well he is going to lie some more, pretend he is ill when really he is way overselling it. Granted everyone around him seems to believe him. And he is going to try and kill off all his family until his youngest son is his heir. I am not really sure why he wants his youngest son as his heir, granted both his older children are a bit...foolish? It is interesting to note that if a long night happens Dorne is actually going to be fairly well off, they might even get more rain then normal. Not that I think Doran really has any thoughts about the long night, the only way he would would be if he is somehow a magical character which besides being a character who embodies the Stranger he doesn't seem to be. Plus other characters embody Death in the story without being magical.

There was a signed and sealed letter.

I dislike the Quenton chapters looking back its a story about a person set up for failure failing and I don't know how interesting of a story that can actually be. While it's a clear subversion of the usual hero's journey arc it's rather ham-fisted all the way through that this is a "bad idea" At least with the Ned / Robb subversions you think they may win at certain points one never truly gets that feeling with Quenton; besides maybe joining the windblown. It also really sullies Doran as a character because how can one look at the "I can get you to Volantis but from there it's up to you" and still consider him cunning. If he's heard about danys Slaver Bay's campaign it's impossible he hasn't heard about the total war conditions it created and both the land route "Demon Road" and sea route "Summer Sea to the south of Volantis" are notoriously dangerous. It's much more likely he ends up enslaved/killed by Mantarys or basilisk pirates than ever reaches Meereen. He should've at least sent agents (that arent his core familial unit) to see if dany even intended to migrate to Westors or at least remains unmarried given that has a good chance of not being the case given medieval marriage alliance politics.

You can’t really blame Rhaegar for not falling head over heels for Elia, it was arranged and all knew there was no love in it

Doran is a fool, a deconstructin of the scheming Lord. He's is going to lose everything to his schemes, after that probably go full Toad of Dorne and challenge Daenerys, this man will get a dragon killed even if it means his doom. Maybe a cousin will take over Dorne later. When you have taken the road of vengeance better dig two holes one for your enemy and one for yourself.

So I'm not the only one who thought it's incredibly odd that Arianne wants to be queen so badly, I'd be like: No thanks dad, let me rule my own country already, who wants to be a decorative womb?

Tbh i just don't like to think about the Martells because I get angry yet again with D&D for throwing away the plotline and the extra seaspns needed to fully fledge it