I think one of the cruelest jokes history played on Sparta is that it didn't have an epic end of being destroyed in battle, it just slowly faded into insignificance.

I'd like to think that unworthy spartan babies weren't wholly useless: they became a part of Sparta's air force

“I’m as tired as a Mycenaean Helot,” has always been a favorite phrase of my grandfather to express his need to rest after a long day, before he retired. He likes to flex his obscure knowledge.

Sparta was on the level-grind, and other players could see their hours played and base size. BUT Sparta never completed any main story quests, never went outside their starting area, never got high-level items, and rarely teamed up. Sparta needed to touch grass, instead they chewed bones.

One of my favorite lines from the movie Meet the Spartans, which is a parody/troll of the movie 300, is when King Leonidas refuses to work with Xerxes. Xerxes says to the Leonidas "You'll regret this. Sparta will be wiped from the history books!" Leonidas hilariously responds with "Well that doesn't bother me, because I can't read!"

Sparta is the civilization equivalent of dumping all your stats into just strength

Sparta being so stereotyped now makes sense to me. If only outside or secondary sources on them survived it would of course mean that they wouldn't be seen in a nuanced light. It would be interesting to see how they actually lived, but that was sadly denied by themselves. Good video 👍

I think one of the best epithets for Sparta is that they were never conquered... ...because they were rendered wholly impotent after pissing off basically entire ancient world. The last mention in actual history of the "noble and ancient Sparta" was as a tourist trap for Roman travelers and source of beefcake bodyguards for fashionable and rich Roman women.

Absolutely insane to think that there may have been entire city-states like Sparta that we don't know anything about, simply due to the ravages of time.

Spartans had no fear of their enemies because they knew they had more to fear at the hands of their own people

Madness? THIS IS… a highly educational video, please show yourself out

“Biggest export is pithy quotes and VIOLENCE” Classic Mandalore

The Spartans are always a funny one. When I first heard the legend of them when I was a kid I was like "holy macaroni! These guys are the coolest dudes ever!!!!" Then I got older, did some reading. Found out about how their society was only possible cuz they conquered and enslaved the entire population of a neighboring area to do their food growing and whatnot for them, etc etc. For every "Wow!" aspect of the Spartans there were quite a few accompanying "well.." bits. That said, whenever the Spartans come up in conversation the first place my brain goes to is "Fuck yeah, dude! They were awesome!" Then I remember all the rest of it. Like I loved the movie 300 despite myself, but in the theater when Leonidas mocks the Athenians as "boy lovers" I was like "the Spartans had INSTITUTIONALIZED PEDERASTY!!!!" A couple years later I met a dude about my age on one of the occasions my Ma dragged me to her Crazy Church (an non-denominational jawn which seemed to take the most bizarre reading of anything they could) who IDOLIZED both Spartans and Samurai yet was also homophobic to a degree I'd rarely encountered. My Ma had told him I train in koryu bugei (old school Japanese martial arts) so he glomped on to me. He'd go off about Spartan bravery or Samurai cleanliness and then express disgust at "butt pirates" and "pillow biters" and I'd be like "well if ye like Spartans and Samurai I've got some very very bad news for ye..."

For anyone interested, I highly recommend Kieron Gillen's graphic novel Three which is the story of three Helots trying to escape Sparta in the aftermath of the Battle of Leuktra (one of Sparta's worst defeats) and focuses heavily on the highly self-defeating and self-destructive and cruel society of Sparta. It was inspired, according to the author, by his experience reading 300 by Frank Miller and getting increasingly angry at all the scenes of the Spartans going on about Freedom and how Free they were and how they were Fighting for Freedom and how everytime that happened he would yell at the pages "YOU HUNTED SLAVES!" It is an excellent and bittersweet tale and thoroughly researched.

I will always remember the idea that you only got a tomb stone in Sparta if you died in battle for the men or if you died during childbirth for the women. Both acts for Sparta and highly valued. The shear x = y of Sparta is hilarious

Athenians: Those Spartans were a speedbump at Thermopylae and have been coasting on it ever since...

.... and then centuries later the mighty Sparta became little more than a tourist trap for Roman travellers.

The more I listen to your and other videos on Greek history and mythology, the more I realize how hilariously misinformed I actually am about said history.

The more I learn about Sparta, the more I can't help but think literally the only thing I can truly respect about it is having some kickass one liners.

I’d love to see an episode on the history of Georgia! It’s an often overlooked country and it’s an interesting one at that

What's really interesting is that after the Peloponnesian War Sparta's hegemony over Greece only really lasted as long as the Persians were interested in keeping Sparta in charge. When Persia was at war with Sparta 9 years later, they bankrolled the anti-Spartan alliance that started the Corinthian War, the Peloponnesian War's less popular but arguably just as impactful Sequel. The only reason that Sparta won the Corinthian War was because the Persians swapped back to supporting the Spartans after destroying the Spartan navy and realizing that Athens was reclaiming some of the old islands and in a position to potentially rebuild the Delian League with many more allies than the first time around. The resulting "King's Peace" of 387, which was essentially Persia saying "Athens gets a few islands back, but there will be no more leagues or alliances, and Sparta is authorized to enforce this treaty through any means they see fit". After Sparta got wrecked at Leuctra in 371, they were unable to maintain the King's Peace due to the loss of men, material, prestige, and Persian funding because Persia was dealing with it's own issues.

"enslave a whole entire population of helots to farm, we have more time to exercise now" is one of my favourite qoutes from blue now

"They don't care about dying, just losing!" - Juliette Lewis, "The Way of the Gun"

The medieval urge to not eat without entertainment

Fun Fact: sparta is kinda famous for it army right but it was also a great place for music back in the day as well, it is said that semi-legendary musician terpander held the first first musical contests in sparta and tyrtaeus made elegies for the spartans (both military and political) in war against there enemies

Spartans really took Abusive Husbandry to a 10 in their leadership style, huh.

Here's a joke for you: Sisyphus, while doing his punishment in Hades sees Oedipus Oedipus: What's up Rolling Stones! Sisyphus: What's up motherf*%er!

Historia Civilis has an interesting video on Sparta in which they evaluate the Spartan mindset, that being of invaders in a hostile land. Really colors a lot of decisions Sparta as a culture made, such as their militarism and general callousness.

The worst thing for Sparta? Alexander the Great told them they weren't worth conquering. Ouch I'm surprised you didn't mention that Blue.

I've heard Sparta compared to an ancient Greek North Korea. This video kinda backs that up.

Got any thoughts on the comic book series Three by Kieron Gillen? Here's some general info from Wikipedia: Three has been described as an "equal and opposite response" to the view of Sparta presented by Frank Miller's 300. Gillen was inspired to create the comic when he read 300 and was enraged by its glorification of Sparta as a "free" society despite having a huge slave underclass. He initially intended to portray the Spartans as pure antagonists, as the Persians were in 300. However, while researching for the book he came to the conclusion that the Spartans also suffered under their harsh society and the requirements it placed on them, and became more interested in presenting an objective and historically accurate image of ancient Sparta. Professor Stephen Hodkinson of the University of Nottingham, a leading expert on Sparta, consulted on the book.

Don’t forget about how due to the Sparta’s program of training warriors from the age of seven was basically killing the city slowly. Due to how deadly it was Sparta never had a population growth when they started it, it just got smaller and smaller. 😂

“Are your principles not engraved in all hearts, and in order to learn your laws is it not enough to go back into oneself and listen to the voice of one's conscience in the silence of the passions? Let us learn to be satisfied with that, and without envying the glory of those famous men who are immortalized in the republic of letters, let us try to set between them and us that glorious distinction which people made long ago between two great peoples: one knew how to speak well; the other how to act well.” ― Jean-Jacques

An appropriately laconic account of Sparta. 😉 I'm going to drop a Thucydides quote I used for your last ancient Greek history video also. I will just add that not having a bunch of epic stone temples no doubt altered how we perceive Sparta but perhaps the most lasting monument to Athens is not the Parthenon and other stone ruins, but it's literature as touched on in the video. For I suppose if Lacedaemon [Sparta] were to become desolate, and the temples and the foundations of the public buildings were left, that as time went on there would be a strong disposition with posterity to refuse to accept her fame as a true exponent of her power. And yet they occupy two-fifths of Peloponnese and lead the whole, not to speak of their numerous allies without. Still, as the city is neither built in a compact form nor adorned with magnificent temples and public edifices, but composed of villages after the old fashion of Hellas, there would be an impression of inadequacy. Whereas, if Athens were to suffer the same misfortune, I suppose that any inference from the appearance presented to the eye would make her power to have been twice as great as it is. (The Peloponnesian War, 1.10.2)

Would have liked a mention of the «Spartan Heiresses», which is an often overlooked part of the pop-cultural «Macho-Man» image of Sparta: That due inheritance laws favouring widows and daughters (Helot-lands was Public land divided among Spartan Citizens, but Spartan lands was private owned, another common misconception), a small group of Spartan Women owned as much as 30-40% of Spartan land (according to Aristotle), and bought off any land reformers in Sparta, hence giving another explanation to the Spartan Conservative Nature/Stagnation. As such Sparta was known more for their (powerful) women than as individual great warriors: Their martial greatness came from military drills of working together as a unit, enabling their small army to outperform larger but less disciplined armies, not speak of their huge population of Helot Slaves. This in turn explain why the Spartan seldom went on expansionistic wars after the 7th Century (viewing the wars with Persia and Athens as existential wars of defense by approaching enemies), as they were far too concerned by acting as a Ancient KGB against their Slave Helot Population and enjoying their spare time: Since they had their slave to all the manual work, every Spartan Citizen was essentially a Nobleman, who could focus on physical training, hunting and partying, whereas most Hoplites of other cities were more like Militiamen who had to tend their own farms back home.

“SPARTANS What is your profession?” “SLAVE HOLDERS!”

My favorite history channel! The blend of historical accuracy, nuanced takes, and hilarious observations is unmatched!

"Have you ever lost your shield in battle?" "...I have." "Then you are a Spartan no more."

I do feel Blue skipped over what is probably the biggest reason Sparta eventually just faded into a shadow of their former glory, and also a third reason why they were so dependant on their allies. Because as it turns out, tossing your slightly weaker children out of your society has a VERY important effect on the most important metric for ancient success: population growth. Even at the height of their power, the Spartans could muster 10,000 hoplites at best (for example the disastrous Battle of Leuctra), and because of the strict policy of discarding lacking children, every soldier that was lost for Sparta was far more devastating than for other Greek city states, who often had smaller armies and lacked training, but had a bigger pool of population to rebuild that army if it was beaten on the field. And once the Spartans were defeated properly once, they simply could not provide enough fresh blood to refill those ranks, even with their women strong enough to bear more children than the average Greek housewife. In that regard, it is no surprise that almost exactly a century after their dethronement as hegemon of the Greek world by Thebes, the Spartans had to resort to their women taking part in the fight to fend off an invader army from Epirus, and not even a century after that completely losing their independence to the Romans, by then not even playing a major role in the coalitions made by Greek city states anymore.

Thanks for pointing out the brutality of Spartan society. Funny how movies and games praise and idolize them, and carefully fail to mention their brutal enslavement and abuse of the Helots. Other Greek cities had slaves, but the Spartans were in a league of cruelty and terror all their own. IMO Sparta kinda just needed to collapse; their entire existence and way of life was built around that brutality and even obsessed with it. Thankfully the Helots were _eventually_ freed by Thebes, and I can't imagine the joy of that day, finally escaping generations of terror and abuse. Beyond that, I get the impression the Spartans just degraded to the point of irrelevance and were swept up by later militaries as a formality.

I wonder if Sparta's fading into obscurity inspired the line, "Old soldiers never die, they just fade away."

I hope we come to understand Sparta more, because WAY too many people seem keen on replicating the "idealized" version of it. I partially blame 300 for this.

You didn't mention the other big part of Sparta's society the Perioikoi, which were a large number of free non-citizens, that were basically the inhabitants of all the cities in the territory of Sparta that were not Sparta or Amyclae. They weren't citizens, so no voting rights, no veto right in the Peloponese League, but on the other hand they had to obey Spartans leadership and to participate in the army ^^ At least they were free contrary to the Helotes XD

Blue, I have to say, over the past few months you've made me have a new appreciation for ancient history. Keep up the good work!

i love the maps this episode!! the detail on those coastlines... my hand is cramping up imagining drawing them lol

You forgot one of the most important cities in Sparta's history: Megalopolis, the city founded as a check on Spartan ambitions that aided in keeping the old Spartan state confined to it's hospice bed.

THIS _WAS_ SPARTA

Great Video, thanks for your hard work. It’s always a highlight 😊

I was about to give Blue credit for his restraint over NOT making a 300 reference, but then I read the description.

I just finished Gates of Fire the other day and it occurred to me that I'd never seen an OSP video on Sparta. Then this drops! Woooo!

i could listen to blue talking greek history for hours, looove his pronounciations of cities especially!

Excellent video. Here’s some more fun Sparta stuff: The period of Sparta’s military dominance lasted about 100 years, which seems a lot. But really isn’t when compared to other ancient cultures. During that time they were impressive their win/loss record was better than the Romans but it was only during that time. Go outside that 100 year period and there’s a distinct decline in effectiveness. Looking at the works of Xenophon a Greek philosopher who actually lived with and fought beside Spartans there’s evidence that one of the real reasons for their success was less they were the toughest around. And more they’re just the ones who trained in an organized fashion. Their military structure actually had a full array of tanks and chain of command. No one else in Greece had this. This allowed the Spartans to actually maneuver on the battlefield. Most other phalanx battles basically were basically set up at the start and then there was remarkably little control over how the soldiers behaved after. And other city-states learning this and adjusting their militaries is part of the reason for the aforementioned military decline. The Thebans were the first to really implement it and would you look at that, the first major defeat of the entire Spartan army in 100 years at Leuctra. Philip of Macedon would also basically steal the infantry command structure of the Spartans, and added his own improvements to the cavalry that was further tweaked by Alexander. Another fun thing that famous Spartan outfit of the lambda shield and Corinthian helmet was not even the primary outfit of the Spartans during their period of military hegemony. The lambda shield was only implemented at the tail end of it (after Thermopylae) and not long after that the Corinthian helmet was abandoned for the Phrygian helmet which admittedly looks weirder but allowed easier communication which was good for the Spartans because they’re the army that actually communicated to each other in the battle. A bit of time in the video was used to discuss how Sparta received aid from Persia during the Peloponnesian War. I think it’s worth noting everyone was trying to get money from Persia in that instance. The Spartans were just more successful than the Athenians, of course they were the Persians hated the Athenians. But I will point out. The Persians gave the Spartans money for their navy. Because the Persians understood that the Spartans mucking about against the Athenian navy would only weaken the navy but it was unlikely that the very army focused military would ever really expand to become a real naval power. But the navy was only one problem the Spartans had. Arguably more direct was that the Spartans didn’t have siege equipment to topple the Athenian walls. You know who did? Persia. But the Persians never once gave any aid to Sparta in that department.

I've never felt more sure that the assassin's Creed franchise is actually a conspiracy led by history teachers to get children to learn about history than I do right at this moment realizing that I know most of this information already because of Odyssey; because it got me interested in the culture and I did additional research on my own. Which seems to be a common thing among assassin's Creed players.

I did notice the keeping to topic, well done!

This was really cool, I love your videos.

I took Ancient Greece and Rome in college. I really wish I could’ve gotten more out of it but our teacher’s French accent was so thick, it was hard to understand him. Plus we almost thought he died multiple times throughout the semester lol. The only thing I got out of that class was that Spartan food was terrible and they drank very strong wine lol

Great job 👏🏽 as always

Sparta is so interesting! Thanks for the video!

Always magnificent videos

I love the concise videos, but I can't be the only one who would like to hear Blue just go down the rabbit hole :D

Don't forget the Spartans' biggest weakness - they are chronically late. To everything. They were supposed to be at Marathon, they were supposed to have more troops at Thermopylae, but their army can't ever get anywhere on time because they won't march on any of their many, MANY holy days. That's actually another aspect of Sparta and its reputation - they were considered by many Greeks to be the most religious of the city-states, with the most devotion to the rules and rituals. An interesting mix with their often brutal pragmatism elsewhere.

Thank you for the video.

I find it fascinating that societies with a level of paranoia with not enough pragmatism to shore up that paranoia become problematic. Sparta so scared of its own image being eroded it made itself less reasonable to its neighbors and allies.

If ancient Athens reflected itself on Athena than does everything on Sparta reflects on Ares?

More stuff like this please

So I watched the 2+ hour Rome one. Awesome. First recommended is the Minoans. Great! Then each recommended after covers the various stages of ancient to classical Greece including Alexander the Short-Lived! (love your nicknames) This has been a most excellent snow day. Are you going to do a longer Greece Re-Summarized? From the Minoans to the Roman conquest of Greece maybe? (You know who probably deserves the title "Great" even less than Alexander? Aelfred lol. Whoopdie do you fought of the Great Heathen Army and saved Christendom. Anything sounds cool when you say it like that 😁)

new OSP? Im here for it

I would love to see you guys do a video on Ares. Just like sparta, he isn't exactly as simple as the stereotypes make him out to be.

Pretty massive oversight to not mention the Laconian helots. Also, they never threw babies off cliffs. Leonidas himself had a gammy leg.

THIS IS AN AWESOME BIRTHDAY GIFT

Any other Michigan State alumni/students feeling a skosh uncomfortable after this video? 😅 Though It *did* just dawn on me how massively ironic it is that our best reputation is as an *agricultural* school--the helots get theirs back!

Always love a good Sparta Vibe Check.

For those looking for more info on how Sparta's reality differed from the thousands of years of propaganda and myth-making about them, I recommend reading A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry's blog series, "This. Isn't. Sparta.". A thorough examination of how Sparta operated (in a manner that doesn't sugarcoat how utterly awful their society was) and how its reputation developed. All through the lens of contrasting Sparta's popular depictions (most prominently in the film _300_ ) and even many ancient sources, with evidence not ideologically motivated.

You say four tiny villages, as the map shows five. I am confused. I must know the exact number of villages!!!

Is there a place where I can look at more of the art you used? I have no idea how to google ancient greek paintings...

A video about ancient Greece that ain't a half hour long? Madness, I tell you.

One thing you misrepresented here is that Sparta does not appear to have been normal before the conquest of Messenia, rather the state was already built on the back of Helots, and the Messenians simply let the Spartans collect far more wealth and provided them with far more Helots than they had previously had.

For everyone interested in Sparta I highly recomment the podcast "Let's talk about Myths, Baby" and her series on Sparta with a ton of expert interviews.

Hi, it's me, /u/Iphikrates! It's great to see my posts become part of the research for such a fun and informative video. Keep up the good work! If anyone is looking for further reading, there should be an absolutely state-of-the-art new introduction to Sparta out soon(ish) by Stephen Hodkinson, one of the world's most prominent scholars on Spartan history. In the meantime I recommend Nigel Kennell's "Spartans: A New History" (2010).

Sparta can be summed up as "Buff because Paranoia"

Thanks for information of spartan

Needs more Cleomenes and Delphic prophecies.

haha, having just played Odyssey, 2:50 jumped out at me, lol Such a beautiful game. I want to get the DLC and play through Atlantis.

Sparta took Paranoia and said "I like this, let build everything around this"

Any comments on Sparta's connection to Ares and chains?

Blue if you’re looking for video ideas for Pride Month, the Theban Sacred Band would be real cool

Do Lisbon next

I already kinda forgot about the n't meme, so the Shipn't threw me for a loop lol

This good.👍

Famous psychological point of view it does make a whole lot of sense.

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!

Blue exercising _wise restraint_ on greece? that sounds like a good video topic...

0:22 actually I would say they lost the Thermopyles due to a tactical blunder, despite having been put in a superior position by Themistokles. And they didn't really rise to the occasion either. About 10.000 people fought on the Greek side in that battle only about 300 of them from Sparta. Somehow they always seem to have a holy day when the Persiens come knocking. Still Leonidas got the command of the land troops and he fucked it up while Themistokles was kicking ass at see.

My favourite sparta fact is that the elites were BANNED from even TOUCHING money

Good hustle Blue

Leonidas is probably one of my favorite Spartans, next to Bassidus.

Nice.

not really related to the video but it's good to see percy supporting the dissemination of history XD

No mention of Agesilaus II, or the laws of Lycurgus and the Spartan constitution? Xenophon is a good source on Spartan history from his Hellenika to his Scripta Minora

Any chance you can do Occitania/Occitanie? It's really like a second country hidden inside france