Agreed - and I think with the continued fall in battery prices, the decision to get into renewables will soon become a no-brainer, even for those who can't (or don't want to) have solar panels. All the best for 2024!

Will you be passing the saving directly onto customers?

I did not know about the vat reduction. Thank you! I'm in a flat so no solar for me. I was considering a givenergy all in one. Even more so now!

Yeah, it's great to see the government fixing what was a recognised omission from the scheme. And I have a video on battery-only installations coming up soon! :-)

Yes that was a big factor when I had my system installed. Waiting to add batteries after the initial install would’ve meant they would’ve cost 20% more. Glad to see that changes in Feb 👍

Nice!

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Wow didn’t know that I will have to look into that thanks for the info.

Thanks Dominic! 😀 Yeah, it’s a lot more effort, but well worth it - too much misinformation out there!

This is great to hear, Alistair - thanks for sharing! It's still a big purchase so experiences like you're having will help people make the decision :-)

10k in bitcoin 12 months ago would of made ya 16.5k profit 🎁

@@Dale-11 But that would have been a gamble, the 600 pound saving on the electricity bill was a cast iron guaranteed amount of cash in the pocket.

@@andrewallen9993 gamble no, risk investment yes like all trading, I've got battery and solar nice little savings per year but best investment definitely not.

Most batteries will approach end of cycle life 6-10years. No the best of investments to be fair

Totally agree, and, as it happens, I’m talking about this in my next video, all about battery-only installations 👍🏻

But beware…. Customers should not presume that their solar / battery installation comes with this capability “out of the box”. Most don’t unless specifically requested - due to additional expense of switchover wiring and whole house earth-spike. I.E. this feature relies on more than just inverter capability as I found out when my (GivEnergy) installation was being commissioned. Customers interested in this capability need to specifically ask about this feature before installation starts.

@@beillynoy Good point, and one that I'll pick up on in that video - thanks!

not an option where i live, you can not produce in "island operation" its not allowed do to safety they say. we almost never have blackout and brownout is never happening.

That might be OK in the US where I understand you have crap grid reliability but it is not as simple as that. Here in the UK any grid tied system must shut down when there is a power cut. This is because, when the power is restored the connected equipment must output power that is in phase with the grid. If that does not happen huge currents will flow accompanied by instant blowing of the main supply fuse.

Haha! If only that *were* my office! My real office (behind the green screen) is not as tidy - studio lights, cables and papers everywhere! 🤣

Hi Steve, thanks for your kind words. Yeah, I think we're aa long way from a centralised control system that can manage entities (inverters, batteries, EV chargers, solar diverters etc.) from different manufacturers. For that, we need standards, and it'll take a few years before the industry develops those. I'll keep an eye on things though, and am happy to do a video in time :-)

Thanks Robert - and sorry about the focus problem!

That's brilliant - thanks for sharing!

That's so very kind of you - thank you! :-)

That’s true 👍🏻

Sounds good Peter - I’d be interested to hear how things go 👍🏻

Hi Adrian, you're most welcome - and thanks for the insight into the Slovakian market - very useful. Here's a utility that I'll be releasing soon, which you might like to try, in order to test if there is an ROI for a battery (only) solution: garydoessolar.com/utilities/batarazma/

@@GaryDoesSolar Thank You Gary for reply. I consider spreading awareness as 50% of our work. To give You an insight into central-european prices for homes (not businesses!). We usually (I mean Slovakia, Czech republic to a certain degree) have 2 tarrif bands - peak and off-peak. Price consists of electricity price and system service price per kWh. So neglecting monthly fixed fee for connection point we have two components of price per kWh: constant "service price of electricity delivery per kWh" and variable "peak or off-peak electricity price per kWh". "Service price of electricity delivery per kWh" is around 7-9 eurocents. Prices for homes are heavily subsidized resulting in "peak or off-peak electricity price per kWh" being in range of 6-11 eurocents. So practically we have electricity for about 16-20 eurocents per kWh. 4eurocent difference does not pay itself when you need to account for around 10eurocents per kWh of battery amortization. I see these subsidies causing an issue of wider adoption or motivation into investments of homeowners into such systems, as economically from an individual homeowner perspective they do not pay off sooner than in 10 years. However i see this as part of "one's critical infrastructure". It is not about just price of electricity, but about services as well. With your own battery you have basically UPS for your whole house. When more people work from home, suddenly it makes more sense for those people to have this perspective on the topic, but again, we are speaking of not very large group of people to whom this matters. Businesses however pay around 40 eurocents per kWh, but are facing more beraucracy from the state, so overall PV energy adoption is slower than it could be.

@@Adrian-foto Cheers for the extra detail, Adrian - much appreciated. Yeah, bureaucracy is always going to be a problem - that really needs to be fixed first in order to drive adoption.

You're most welcome, Nuno :-) My general view of Tesla is that they seem to know what they're doing - even if some of their moves seem strange at first. The PW2 is the gold standard of home batteries - everyone who has one (or more) seem to love them, they just work, with little or no intervention - and all the other manufacturers are now copying the PW2 specification as a result. I believe the PW3 is actually a move into the mass market, especially for those who cannot or don't want solar. And coincidentally, this is the topic of my next video in fact - battery only solutions :-)

You might be interested to watch this video, which explains the rationale for the PW3 design: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/g5-Tl7F0lq_XqIU.html

I know I was pretty annoyed by the change in the Powerwall 3 inverter situation. When I had my 18kW solar system installed in 2022, we had to wait a couple years before we could install batteries, and we went with Enphase microinverters for the ease of a future powerwall installation, thinking by then the PW3 would be out and we'd get more bang for the buck. Now it's coming out and our system is completely incompatible.

That sounds like a pragmatic approach. I'd love to hear if it pans out as you expect because I'm looking to get a heat pump myself at some point - thanks! Feel free to email me@GaryDoesSolar.com if you prefer not to comment here...

I wish I had more time, and I'd be able to do this, especially for different regions around the world. But I trust in an open market, that healthy competition between suppliers will keep prices in check...

Sounds great - and actually, I'd argue that by exercising your batteries as you do you're reducing greenhouse gases even more, as the grid doesn't need to burn as much marginal generation fuel :-)

If you are on the FIT scheme your generation meter must be solely connected to your solar inverter.

I am all for looking after the environment , however when singing the praises of solar, battery and wind we only look at a fraction of the story. When you look at the whole picture none of these products are as environmentally friendly as they are being projected . Lets not fool ourselves, those singing the loudest are normally the ones who are profiting, the damage being done to the environment to produce the so called environmentally friendly products are totally ignored. A classic example of this is Ethanol being put into petrol to clean up the emission , totally ignoring the fact that it takes 9.3 lts of dirty Diesel to produce 1ltr of ethanol, not everything is as green as we are being told.

That’s just brilliant 😀 and it opens the door to more and more people making the jump to solar 👍🏻

Panel prices have certainly fallen. But mounting equipment for panels have really shot up in price. My inroof panel adaptors for instance have gone up from £30 to £100. It’s quite shocking considering it’s just moulded plastic!

My recent 4kw panel quotes have shocked me at the £££

@@tonyfeasby1437 As is lower or higher?

@@anthonydyer3939 That's crazy eh? I still have faith in the free market though. Other manufacturers of the same, should easily be able to undercut... but only if there is enough competition for such items?

Do you charge your battery at night using cheaper electricity? I usually have a near full battery in the morning which lasts all day with no problems (GE 8.2 kWh). You could sell me your 9.5kWh battery to part fund your AIO (said with a part tongue in cheek).

Yeah, I would certainly have considered the AIO too, if it had been available. We're still at the stage where going green is really only open to early adopters with cash on hand to fund the hefty up-front costs, but I think that's changing soon... :-)

@@eddyd8745 Hi Eddy. Yes we charge the 9.5 battery at night @7p/kWh during a 6 hour 11.30pm to 5.30am window (Octopus Intelligent Go). When needed the car gets charged overnight as well & we also run time delayed appliances overnight when possible as well. Unfortunately, "management" is a fairly high energy user 🥴. The kettle always seems to on, the floor steamer & carpet washer in constant use to clear up the latest cat accident & the tumble dryer (heat pump now) & washing machine always running - & there's only two of us in the house now!! Consequently our existing 9.5kWh GE battery is not enough (at least in winter). I could add another 9.5kW battery relatively easily (almost plug & play) or, ditch the existing 3.6kW Hybrid Inverter & battery & go for the previously mentioned GE All In One system. Not sure I want the upheaval or extra expense of the AIO plus I probably need to get G99 approval (which could be refused) cos the AIO is 6kW AC output. Apart from the G99 approval, the problem is the AIO has a 13.5kW battery on board which although larger may not be enough for us, especially if we want to ditch our Gas CH & run a Heat Pump at a later date. Extra batteries can be added to the AIO (future option according to GE). We are retired so are home most days so the heating is on during the day & set back at night. Currently gas boiler, rads, HW cylinder with an Eddi for excess solar - not happening in winter. Adding an extra 9.5kW Gen 2 battery to our existing 9.5 gives us a more healthy 19kW of energy storage & for less money than the cost of an AIO - circa £6k (incl VAT currently) without installation cost. An extra 9.5kW battery is circa £3,200 (incl Vat currently) & theoretically we could charge the 2 x 9.5kW batteries within the 6hr cheap rate window overnight. Thanks for the offer but I think I need to think about this a bit more to see what direction I need to go. The problem is by next week something else will have come along to change everything😩

I am happy I added another 3.2 kWh battery last autumn. That now gives us 9.6 kWh. I don’t use it overnight, I just charge it. I get it to kick in around 7am and it lasts until around 9pm. We are planning on getting a heat pump. I am not sure how much that will use on a daily basis. I am waiting until the VAT change and will look at getting another 3.2 kWh battery. It is nice to be able to add on when required.

Thanks for the detailed reply Colin. I'm fortunate, in some respects, that I don't have any unnecessary management fees! 🤣I think that the additional 9.5kWh battery would seem to be the best option for you. Like you I would have gone for an AIO if I were doing the journey again. I'll probably look at getting another battery, probably just an 8.2kWh one, fitted when the VAT gets removed next week. I'm trying desperately not to get dragged into further costs for very little gain, but it is a bit addictive. Regards, Eddy

I heard that all Nissan Leaf models from 2013 onwards are approved for use with the FE-15 bidirectional charger (V2G). If that's the case, then those models can be used as home battery storage whilst connected.

Great stuff. And I’m hearing that CATL (who manufacture a third of the world’s li-ion batteries) is cutting prices even further this year! Bring it on 👍🏻

Thanks Billy - yeah, I screwed up on the setting up of my iPhone SE camera - I'll try not to make that mistake again! Glad you enjoyed the video :-)

It's great to see companies attempting to push the boundaries! :-)

Thanks! Distributors, retailers and installers adding their mark-up, likely…

I love it that there are companies all over the world now investing a huge amount of time, money and effort into new battery technologies. The real winners, regardless of which technologies win over each other, are the consumers. In the end, I don't wee really care what happens inside the battery pack, so long as it provides sufficient capacity, longevity, charging and discharging speeds for the intended application(s). I don't think it will be too long before one of the technologies being explored (including the ones that you mention) proves itself worthy... :-)

Ambri batteries operate a 500°C which isn't practical for a home-sized battery. Sodium ion cells started appearing on alibaba at the end of 2023 so we might see home batteries using them in '24 or '25. Enervue's NiH redox-ish battery looks interesting too.

For a Home battery pack weight is normally not much of a problem. My home battery packs consist of 'Old style' deep cycle lead acid cells, set in a rack alongside my house. A well tried technology, that is completely recyclable.

Lithium battery prices will fall 50% by next year.

Yeah, it's going to be an interesting year for batteries, I reckon :-)

I recommend you watch this video, which I think will answer a lot of your questions ok👍🏻 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rp5jp5SaqLO8qKs.html

Yikes - feeling lucky we chose QCells QHome package over the SolarEdge one now. Thanks for the feedback.

Hi Richard, that's a pretty good return on your system - fantastic. And sorry to hear about the troubles you had with SolarEdge inverters - crikey! Maybe just waiting maybe 3 months and there will be further prices drops on batteries - enough to persuade you to spend some of those returns on a further ROI? :-)

@@GaryDoesSolar My high ROI was accomplished by a combination of high charges per kilowatt hour and lots of sunshine year-round. I’m prepared with a very reliable electrician who also installs solar to hook me up when I’m ready to proceed with batteries.

@@richardcoughlin8931 All the best with that Richard, and I'd love to hear how it all goes 👍

Microinverters work out more expensive and are pointless unless parts of your solar array are shaded at various times of the day.

You raise a large (and very important topic) - one that I can't answer right now, but I'm soon to make a video on the merits of battery-only installations... a good starting point!

@@GaryDoesSolar Cheers. It would be a shame if people in denser housing - which should be better for the environment all things being equal due to taking up less space and allowing for short distance higher volume public transit - are locked out of other opportunities to limit their carbon emissions for historical structural reasons.

@@GaryDoesSolar Quite an important one Gary. I live in a pretty large Victorian end terrace with a 'beautifully pitched' NNE-SSW facing roof. Guess which side has a bloomin' dormer window? Could probably only get 2 kW on it (3 floors up!)

Hi Stuart, thanks for the insightful comment. I have a Gen2 GivEnergy battery and even with a 3.6kW discharge, I'm finding it difficult to keep the house load under that - especially around peak times! I think the solution really is where Tesla (and hopefully others) are taking us with the new Powerwall 3 - an >11kW discharge rate... Hopefully, you'll see from the video that in a few years, price won't be anywhere near as much of an issue as it has been in recent times.

@@GaryDoesSolar I think the trick once the honeymoon period ends is to not fret too much, especially during main evening meal periods! I was semi tempted by the Givenergy All in One, but even that can only sustain peak loads of around 7kwh for very short periods. My parents touted buying my system from me, which would have offset the cost / trade in, but they're still on the fence, and I'm not unhappy with what we ended up with. Good video as ever!

I plumped for the Alpha Smile 5 ESS with a nominal 5kw discharge (actually less than that , depending on temperature). Brilliant bit of kit , it very very rarely can't cope with the house load (PV generation added on top of course which is a bonus in the summer) We are totally electric now , heat pump , cooking , cars etc. All together our electric bill for December was £125. It should be all paid back by 2030.

@@rico4229 Just looked it up. Impressive kit 👍

@@stuartburns8657 I think doing it again and 1 year on I would try and get a system which better integrates with everything else going on in the house. I think GivEnergy and Myenergi are going down that route. But you can wait forever for a perfect system!

Sorry to hear that your roof space doesn’t allow for a useful solar system. As it happens, my next video (out in a few days) will help answer your question… 👍🏻

Yeah, and I made mention of this in my latest video (just uploaded) - such great news! And I think the battery revolution is coming quicker than maybe people thought! :-)

My pleasure, Mike. A 6.2% rate is pretty good, I have to say, and I can't fault your strategy. Let's see how things pan out over the next 6-12 months :-)

@@GaryDoesSolar yes it was good. I just nipped in before it closed. I am getting 5.2% at the moment with Skipton BS (base rate -0.19%) but this one has closed now as well.

PS Premium Bonds not so good only about 3.2% over the past year.

Thank you 🙏 😀

I talk about that in this video here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gKtipMKQ3KzHm2Q.html

Thanks Alan, and I wish I had more time to be able to investigate this - especially for different regions around the world. I put my trust in an open market though, with healthy competition between suppliers keeping prices in check...

I'm not familiar with this product, sorry. You could post a question onto a solar forum (e.g. this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!

Great to hear, and I’m not surprised, Richard 👍🏻 All you need to do when selling your home is show prospective buyers the savings they’ll achieve… easy argument to show increased value!

Hi there Joan - yeah, a video on this is definitely on the cards. Being able to make use of a large battery asset that is sitting on your drive a large percentage of the time has to afford benefits in principle, but I want to understand better what the downsides might be as well. And the trouble I've got is that currently, there's not enough real-world experience of V2G/V2H yet, which I'd want to study. I'll keep an eye on how the market evolves - thanks for raising!

I have a car with V2L capability and I was looking for a way to use that facility to act as a battery for my house. Those electricians I have spoken to suggest that using the battery to supply my house is currently not possible as the frequencies from the battery and the mains are likely to be different. Yes I could use the facility on a standalone basis to power a kettle or some other appliance but not as the equivalent as a home battery. They all basically said wait for V2G technology which ( hopefully) will be coming next year ( or later this year 2024) with a two way vehicle charger. If anyone has successfully used the V2L to supply their house, ( and not just as a stand-alone system) I would be interested to hear and what technology they have used.

@@peterjones6640 i foumd a KZfaqr that is using his MG4 to store energy at low peak and reselling it back to the grid at high prices

It's currently pretty hard to use a car as a home battery. There are two main issues: 1. the car's inverter isn't designed to accurately match the frequency and phase of the grid - it's not a 'grid tied inverter'. 2. the car doesn't know how much power to produce. A home battery usually has a device to monitor how power flow between the house and the grid. Until there are standards for this, built into most cars, V2G systems need to use an external inverter connected to the car's DC rapid charge port. That makes them big and expensive.

@@robinbennett5994the idea is to transfer energy from the car battery to the home battery at a constant rate and let the home inverter control the consumption of the house but to only draw power from the home battery. This way the car battery only have to deal with the recharging of the home battery at one constant load is like going on the motor way if this makes sense

Thanks Jim. And I think a battery-only style tariff could soon happen… I’ll be covering this in a video soon 👍🏻

@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you Gary, we'll see I guess. I keep nudging Octopus but they tell me to use ones I don't qualify for. Innovation would most probably tip me over.

Have a look at the open source home assistant software and BottleCapDave's plug in for Octopus. This allows you to set up target rate sensors for the cheapest or most expensive periods of the day - however long you want. So you could get to say, 1600, see how much juice you have in the battery, then decide to export for one hour at the best price over the next three hours. Or export for two hours if you have more juice in the battery. Or don't export at all if you don't have much left. So far I have this working the other way around with my hot water immersion, i.e. heat water at the cheapest three hours of the day. Admittedly that is a much simpler problem to solve. I'm planning a givenergy all in one and am pretty sure I can get a reasonably optimised export strategy setup this way. I live in a flat so no solar for me. Another thought is prioritising export for octoplus saving sessions might be best financially (and environmentally?) Dave's integration reports those sessions, too. The octopus APIs are brilliant, they are a proper tech company.

@@cad4246 Thank you so much for posting this 😀it's a really helpful pointer and one I'll certainly follow up. Really appreciated!

​@@cad4246 thank you for this. My knowledge of HA is zero sadly and my wife's even less. I've seen in one of Gary's later videos that there is a paid service which would achieve broadly similar but with less potential to finesse. I'm sold on the battery and I like Agile but the control {and learning curve) concerns me. Perhaps I just may delay and hope GE decide to improve their native automations - but I'm not holding my breath. I do very much appreciate your help though, thank you!

Difficult as the answer will surely depend on the manufacturer of the battery and the aggregate performance data of the actual product to date, but my gut feel is that the lifetime would extend by 10% (as you're cycling 10% less than others might be)? You can't avoid calendar aging though, where your battery will surely deteriorate anyway, regardless of its use.

Yeah, I'm hoping that over time, this happens too, and I'm confident it will...

Yeah, it's quite an educational experience having such kit in the home! I wish my electricity bill (pre-solar) was as low as yours! All the best! :-)

Hi Geoffrey, true, but at least it's clear everything's heading in the right direction :-)

9.5 kwh is far too little if you are running a heat pump in January and it is cold outside.

@@rogerphelps9939 absolutely agree. I have a heat pump and it can get through anywhere between 20 and 80kWh in a day depending upon outside temperatures. That's way too much to ever have sufficient battery storage to supply with cheap overnight electricity, nor could I charge it up overnight either. I was using the 9.5 to illustrate how challenging the payback calculation is. In fact at the moment we only have a 5.2kW battery which will see us through most ;but not all) of the peak period. We moved to Octopus agile in October and it's actually working out pretty good, about 18/19p average unit rate. Yes more battery would reduce that further but I'd never get enough storage for every winters day

Wow - what an amazing price! And I totally agree with you, it's not about what one single manufacturer does, it's about the effect that this has on all the other manufacturers - problems drive solutions :-)

The really strange thing was that after I'd paid the money, pulled the order trigger....and...keep in mind...it takes about 60 days from China...I have continued to receive quotes....with some of them being 20% lower than the price I paid. I don't regret my choice...at some point you have to either jump in or decide you will never pull the trigger because prices will continue to trend down for a long time in my opinion. In my case I've built my own batteries so I"m comfortable with what I think is an almost "not warranty" choice on my part. If any of the cubes have a problem, it will be me pulling them apart, deciding if it is an individual cell or the bms that is the problem and putting them back into the rotation. I'd also be curious about your stance on "cycles" and depth of charge and discharge. I get guys suggesting you do everything you can to make the battery last 10,000 cycles when it cost 30 or 50,000 dollars. It is far less of an issue if it cost 10,000 dollars. My stance is that if my batteries will last 5,000 cycles (and what does "last" really mean...dead...or just lower capacity at that point in time?) In my case...5,000 cycles is more than 10 years! One...I'll be 75! Two...there will be stuff that is exponentially better and far cheaper. So...I'm aiming at full charge, almost full discharge every day. I still have a discussion to have with you on your views on micro inverters vs string inverters....to be continued on that video or...we'll save it for another day! Love your videos and thoughtful approach to making this whole thing interesting for guys like me. @@GaryDoesSolar

@@houstonstarbuck Thanks for this extra information and also your kind words, Scott, and yeah, no problem - email me on me@GaryDoesSolar.com anytime 👍

How do you use Alibababa and not get scammed?

@@satekeeperbuyers protection i think

Wow - that’s great to hear, and with battery prices falling since then, payback periods will inevitably come down 😀👍🏻

Great new about your batteries (although I'm using 10kW, not 10MW - unless you're also running a small power station??) I agree on new build houses - there are no excuses not to do this - I mean, even if was one of the options offered by manufacturers to buyers, I'd imagine most would go for it, such is the general availability of information today...

@@GaryDoesSolar you are correct i mage typo error

@@martspar9075 No worries! 🙂

Can’t for the life of me understand why all new builds don’t have to have a minimum amount of soar, say 1kw per bedroom

Yeah, great news :-)

@@GaryDoesSolar Is that only if installed by an installer, ie not zero % if you fit it yourself.

Is that if you pay to have them installed or can I just you buy one myself and fit it?

@@edc1569 Unfortunately, the UK VAT relief is only available if the battery is supplied and fitted by a professional installer.

@@GaryDoesSolar well, someone that is VAT registered, although they ought to be qualified as well.

I completely agree, and thankfully, there are plenty early adopters, to make all this happen. And with an expected 11% decrease in prices expected per year, and the impact of inflation, a 50kWh for $10,000 is maybe closer than you think :-)

Gary, with all respect. Can you show us that you will earn money with this sytem before the end of the lifetime of the battery?

@@marjanklaver6669 That's quite e a general question as there are a lot of factors involved, including amount of sun, daily energy usage profile, size and output of the battery and the smart tariff you're on. That's why I developed this model, so that people can set it up for their own particular circumstances to see how much they could save - let's say over a 10-year warranted battery lifespan). garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/

It's incredible, eh? And I think the price drops are only just getting started - so much so, I've got another video on batteries coming out soon...!

@@GaryDoesSolar 12v 100ah batteries are ubiquitous and now under £200 from several manufacturers .

That seems a pretty good price - thanks for sharing!

Lol - not good!

Great point, Nick! And I have to say, the future of batteries is looking very good indeed... :-)

So my understanding is that the VAT relief is only available on an installed battery (by a professional installer) and it would be on the cost of the battery and the cost of installation combined. Of course the installer would need to be VAT registered as well for the relief to apply. Definitely worth shopping around (as you are indeed doing). Good luck! 🤞🏼

Yeah, I plan to make a video all about V2G/V2H technology at some point. I'm not sure it replaces a home battery but it compliments it very well.

@GaryDoesSolar would this work? I run a 7.9 turbo diesel compressor on a daily basis for work it's all factored into the cost of the job so basically free to charge a dc battery off the alternator what sort of kwh would 150amp on say 8 hours charge achive? I have enough room on the truck etc just firing ideas out I like the idea of being able to harvest power from energy I'm getting paid to use 😏

Yeah, there’s certainly a lot of misinformation going around. And that’s why I try to ground what I cover in my videos with reliable sources 👍🏻 Overall, it always pays to shop around…

Sounds good!

I’d be keen for Sodium based batteries because the resources come from sea water.

Yeah, I wasn't really away of them until I researched for the video. I'm definitely keeping an eye on the technology now, as for stationary storage at least, it looks to be a real winner. I just love how scientists and engineers keep on pushing the boundaries... I mean it's essentially just salt! :-)

@@GaryDoesSolar Well, salt is technically any base reacted with an acid. But yes, sodium is in “common” salt. The thing I find disheartening is that sodium based batteries seem to be this new amazing technology when that’s the technology route we should have gone down decades ago. Instead, millions of acres of habitats and ecosystems have been torn apart and polluted just to refine a few grams from tonnes.

@@oliverpolden Great point, Oliver - I should have said "common salt" 😃 Yeah, sometimes certain technologies find it hard to get the limelight (and therefore funding)... it looks like Sodium-ion is soon to have its day though!

Millions of acres of habitats and ecosystems have not been torn apart. Most lithium comes from salt lakes of very low ecological value.@@oliverpolden

Sorry :-(

Great advice. Also, what is their support like? For example, do they routinely solve issues raised on online forums?

@@GaryDoesSolar also, how do they get recycled? lead acid batteries are easily recyclable. No need to mine for new minerals.

I have a video on this coming up… 👍🏻

Hi Roger, I don't agree with this, sorry. The benefit of a home battery is that you can buy energy cheap overnight, then use later to avoid drawing from the grid at a higher import rate. It doesn't matter if you use it to power a heat pump or any other appliance in the home - it's still cheaper energy.

There are certainly so-called net-metering tariffs around the word, where exported energy is the same price as imported energy, and in that respect, the grid acts like an infinite battery. But... my understanding is that these tariffs are slowly disappearing. Take Australia for example, between 10am and 3pm, the grid absolutely does not want exported solar - and so only pay a few cents/kWh for it. That said, it's not something I've had time to research properly yet, but I would like to understand the long term effect of such tariffs... I'm of the view that the world needs a lot more batteries than it has, because batteries are great at levelling out the spikiness of wind and solar. Finally, if the batteries are sodium-ion, we may not need to do that much digging...

Hi John, yeah - the expected change in legislation on battery-only installations in the UK is very welcome! It's true that some manufacturers will try to use this as an opportunity to increase their profits (by not passing on the VAT cut) but that behaviour generally only works in established markets. The consumer solar market is nowhere near mature yet, and with so many new entrants (who will absolutely pass on those savings to secure a share of the market) I'm not too worried - the incumbents will follow, if only to preserve their current share of the market :-) Hope things are going well with your heat pump. I want to get one at some point, so researching as much as I can at the moment. Agreed, a bigger battery can only help!

Having a battery ready system, with hybrid inverter, this is very welcome if I can get the maths the work!

@@michaelheathcote9488 Hi Michael, as you're looking at the sums, here is a sneak preview to a free utility I'll be releasing soon - let me know what you think: garydoessolar.com/utilities/batarazma/ 👍

⁠@@GaryDoesSolarthat’s pretty good. It’d be nice if the before tariff could have a night rate too (e.g econ 7). Tbf these kinds of calculators should also include cost of funding ie the interest you are still paying from the capital expense or interest not earned via alternative investment - though a lot of the time for consumers that can be zero due to leaving in current accounts etc…

@@rjScubaSki Thanks for the feedback. My plan is to make a Pro version of the same, with additional features - I'll add your suggestions to the list - cheers 🙂

I totally agree - and it's going to be an interesting next couple of years - not least with the CATL announcement (see my latest video) :-O

Agreed!

That sounds like a great deal you got. Would love to hear how you get on with it. Yeah, sorry about the lack of focus - there are so many things that have to go right for a successful recording, and some of those (things (audio, video) you don't really get to review until after it's all done. My New Years Resolution then is to get better at that! Ha! :-)

Oh no! Worth phoning the supplier, to see if they can do anything - e.g. cancel and re-order the same for a later install?

@@GaryDoesSolar Unfortunately its installed and I doubt this Gov will allow claims before February on the Vat. Ho Hum. Thanks for the information though and this is a great channel.

See my latest video which goes live in about 15 minutes 👍🏻

Yeah, sorry about that. I’ve no idea what happened. I use an old iPhone XE to record my videos and I must have pressed the wrong button - and of course I didn’t notice until I’d finished recording. My New Year’s resolution is now to carefully check the video settings three times before I record! 🤣👍🏻

I’d argue the reality of it is that both are happening at the same time. Nothing wrong with that. Many people prefer to have their own battery storage to protect them from blackouts.

I like your thinking on this. There's definitely a burgeoning market for all sizes of batteries for all manner of applications around round. I like it! :-)

A hybrid inverter is required for DC Coupled batteries. AC Coupled batteries have their own inverter or charge controller. See here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rp5jp5SaqLO8qKs.html

@@GaryDoesSolar thanks, did order Powerwall some years ago but still no Powerwalls in Sweden. And as we have DC/AC inverter’s already seems like AC batteries is the best choose for us.

In a mature market, that can certainly (and does) happen, but luckily, the solar and battery market is still immature - and because of that, incumbents can easily be replaced by new upstarts, and those upstarts have no choice really, *but* to pass the cost savings on, IMHO

I think there are still some aspects to be proven, for example, longevity and reliability. I'm sure it won't be long though before it's used widely for at least stationary storage :-)

There's a chance we might get to that point in the next 12-24 months, but what's stopping you contracting the battery purchase and installation work with your electrician, who can then reclaim the VAT? I don't see any con happening here. Irrespective, the chart I showed in the video show that battery prices are expected to fall 11% year on year. What's not to like?

Because nearly everyone wants to make money out of the materials they supply it is not giving everyone the opportunity to search for the best price. Vat free is vat free zero rated is what it says zero rated for every body.

Agreed, we need to ensure the highest safety we can when dealing with batteries, in just the same way as we have to do with gasoline.

That’s great to hear!

It’s always worth shopping around - and also keeping an eye on social media forums - people will share when they see good deals on batteries 👍🏻

Ok, ok, fair comment! In my (weak) defence, I was trying to be funny :-) The truth is that whilst it is technically possible to make sodium-ion batteries using sea water, it's far from efficient. There are much better sources - here's what ChatGPT4 said: Sourcing sodium compounds for sodium-ion batteries typically involves obtaining purified and high-quality sodium compounds suitable for battery production. The best and easiest sources of sodium compounds for sodium-ion batteries include: Sodium Carbonate (Soda Ash): Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), commonly known as soda ash, is a readily available source of sodium. It is used in industries such as glass manufacturing and can be processed to obtain high-purity sodium carbonate for battery production. Sodium Sulfide (Na2S): Sodium sulfide is another sodium compound used in some battery technologies. It can be produced from sodium chloride (table salt) and hydrogen sulfide (H2S) gas through chemical reactions. Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda): Sodium hydroxide (NaOH), also known as caustic soda, is a strong base and a potential source of sodium for battery applications. It is widely used in the chemical industry and can be produced through the chlor-alkali process. Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3): Sodium nitrate is a sodium compound that can be used in some battery chemistries. It is commonly found as a mineral called nitratine. Sodium Phosphate (Various Forms): Different forms of sodium phosphate, such as sodium iron phosphate, can be used in specific types of sodium-ion batteries. These compounds can be synthesized or obtained from certain minerals. ...

Which country are you in?

@@GaryDoesSolar UK

Worth looking at Octopus Energy for very good off-peak rates, particularly Flux and Agile tariffs. Even better if you have an EV - look at Go and Intelligent Go tariffs 👍🏻

@@GaryDoesSolar thanks

Eon next have recently launched an EV tariff - 6.9p per kWh between midnight and 7am here in the UK

But even where you live, people can still save money with batteries by storing excess solar generation, for use later on instead of pulling from the grid?

Yeah, agreed - it’s quite an expensive outlay just for EPS 👍🏻

Covered here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rp5jp5SaqLO8qKs.html

😀

It’s all still Li-ion. I think the installed base is mainly NMC, but for new home battery sales today, It’s predominantly LFP due to lower pricing and increased safety.

Wow - I wasn't aware of that. Any particular reason?

because the load you add to the grid? (But i guess its just a dumb political reason)@@GaryDoesSolar

@@lukululu9759Such a shame the some countries don’t see the tremendous benefits of local generation. That will change over time…

Agreed - hopefully, the home battery market will benefit from the growth of the EV battery market before too long...

Yeah, I’d agree - they’re setting the standard for how batteries should be designed 👍🏻

Things could change very quickly: www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67912033

Feb 2024 - yes, and it's great to see. And should pave the way for more people to make the jump to a sustainable future. I'll be making a video shortly on battery-only installations...

The analysis I carried out in my recent battery ROI videos didn’t show that. I found that it’s always better to self-consume the battery energy than export (import price saved > export price made)

Completely agree - I reckon there will be a huge consumer market for second-hand batteries. In fact, that is needed to support increased new purchases as well 👍🏻 bring it on!

What’s your point?

I'm fine with contentious statements, but not without data/support to back them up. Please add or I'll remove your comment.

@@GaryDoesSolar Not contentious at all. Ive had quotes for solar, payback on battery's was minimum 17 years - far better off paying the $ off my mortgage. would you like a copy of the quotes?

@@timorumThanks for coming back to me on this. The problem I’ve got is that your statement was a blanket one - that solar was not financially viable - yet, the data you’ve presented to support that is a set of just one example (you). Not very scientific.

@@GaryDoesSolar Perhaps it is my example but its had to see how a different example would change the sums enough to make is remotely viable. Happy to send you my quotes and powerbill to do the math.

@@timorum I'm sorry, but you're missing the point. I don't doubt that you in particular have not been able to save money using solar as you claim (so no need to send documentation). But that's a data sample of 1, and from such a small sample size, that you cannot conclude it's impossible for anyone else to save money. Therefore, your generic statement, "save money absolutely not", cannot be backed up with data. Do you not see this??

Sounds like you've got a good setup there! :-) How are you finding the Cyber Truck?

Hope my videos on costs are useful to you 👍🏻

Saving the planet is not really the issue. The planet will survive regardless but its ability to support life is the real issue here.

@@narrowboatlongpod4176 Haha true - but I think it's a safe assumption that we want the planet saved with us still on it 👍

Yes, because that's the main chemistry used for home batteries today.

As it happens, we’re using a lot less electricity today than we used to…

@@GaryDoesSolar We’ll have to see how this plays out but there are places that are trying to phase out natural gas and propane etc. in favor of all electric based homes. Same thing applies to gas and EV’s.

I agree 👍🏻

Assuming you're in the US, yeah, costs for solar and battery do seem to be higher there. Is it mainly the installation costs?

@@GaryDoesSolar It’s the combination of both materials and labor.

True, but maybe the potential earnings are deteriorating all the time? Most crypto currencies are going "proof of stake" instead of "proof of work" ...