Horizontal hive with insulation winter hive collapse

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Charnas

3 жыл бұрын

Horizontal hive winter collapse. Ventilation and condensation problems Hive collapse do to moisture in the hive

Пікірлер: 40
@Thomas-wn7cl
@Thomas-wn7cl 2 жыл бұрын
I have limited hands on bee keeping experience, but a lifetime of carpentry experience. Critically, there was an air gap between your insulation and your hive top bar covers. Or to think about it in another way, you had a air gap between a moist heat source and your insulation. Never leave an air gap between your insulation and your heat source. Think of a cold can of soda on a hot humid day. It beads up with water. Moist heat meets intense cold and the moisture beads up. Now do the same thing but with beer cozy tight around the can. The beer cozy is insulation applied directly to the surface, which moderates the temperature difference and stops the moisture from beading up. A beer cozy an inch or two away from the can won't stop the moisture from beading up in the hot humid weather and it will drip down the can. I think this is what happened to your hive. The gap between you vented insulation board, which is a vapor barrier by the way, became cold and that chilled your cover boards. This led to warm moist air inside the hive meeting ice cold top cover boards, which released the moisture in the hive. If this were a house, I would apply tight fitting paper faced fiberglass insulation (3 1/2") directly over the top bar covers with the paper faced down towards your moist heat source (hive). I would remove the insulation board from the lid and have a highly vented roof assembly above your insulation. Aluminum, other metals, and plastic are also vapor barriers, and will trap moisture. Best of luck
@bfvader
@bfvader 2 жыл бұрын
EDIT - nevermind - just saw your more recent update! :) I'm in the process of building an insulated long Langstroth for myself - one of the things I'm considering for overwintering is making three 10-frame "moisture quilts" to divide my hive into thirds. Basically a 2inch tall box with a canvas or 1/4" hardware cloth bottom filled with wood chips instead of the cover boards. The moisture should travel through the material and wood chips, condense on the foam insulation, then drip back down onto the woodchips and be absorbed without raining down on the bees. Thanks for sharing the video and reminding everyone how important ventilation is, not just insulation!
@citrumpet1
@citrumpet1 3 жыл бұрын
I have a bunch of hives and live in the north. Only leave the frames you need over winter in... No extra empty ones. Move all frames to center. Leave a vent space under follower boards on both sides for air to circulate. Keep vent open on bottom. Don't ever put top board vents over brood. Build a square top about 5 inches high... Not angled. Put insulation sheet on inside top of cover, and keep side vents below the insulation. This is what I do and no moisture problems. Nice building techniques on your hive BTW. I would keep side vents below insulation though in the roof instead of putting a hole in the insulation.
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
That makes sense with the vents. It was hard to find any good information on Webb about winter the hive. Not giving up on it yet will make some modifications and hope for the best. The vertical hive is easy as I got a good handle on it just the horizontal hive I'm still learning about it. Thank you for your input and a good idea and also thank you so much for a comment I greatly appreciate it. God bless. Happy Easter
@davidlayne8755
@davidlayne8755 Жыл бұрын
If you didn't put screen in those holes and the bee's want them closed they will close them it makes no difference what size screen... Note 1 inch of wood is equal to 6 inches of insulation... It looks like you over did the insulation in your top...I know you had vent holes ...
@pauljones8463
@pauljones8463 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for posting this video. It must have been hard to do. Its heart breaking when things like this happen. but by posting this information it will help others prevent it happening again. Its all very well following the normal principals of ventilation. But when we are dealing with creatures with minds of their own that decide to interfere , these priciples can go to pot. Horizontal hives are not well known and its a steep learning curve, but by sharing success and failure we will eventually get it right. good luck in the future
@gerekwhite1778
@gerekwhite1778 3 жыл бұрын
Sorry about your bees! So sad, but thank you for sharing where we all can learn from success and failure. At least you know what caused the colony’s collapse and now you know what to do to fix the issue and I know that you will and you will have a better video to show next year! 👍🏽 Keep going, your efforts will be rewarded!
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
Every comment every thought means a lot. Thank you for watching. I truly appreciate
@rstlr01
@rstlr01 2 жыл бұрын
Here in Southern Minnesota I never worry about top venting or side insulation. Reason being that I use refletix and 2 inch pink board in place of inner covers. This keep dew point on the sides of the hive. Honestly most that moisture probably came into the hive after they were dead, since it was probably a Queen failure. Good luck this winter.
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 2 жыл бұрын
Im going to try this. Thank you
@Thomas-wn7cl
@Thomas-wn7cl 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, it looked like he had an air gap between his frame cover boards and his insulation, which would make the boards drip with from a moist hot interior hitting ice cold frame covers.
@evonnewhalen9794
@evonnewhalen9794 3 жыл бұрын
beautiful hive
@michaeldautel7568
@michaeldautel7568 3 жыл бұрын
Put a DeHumidifier in the same room as your open Hive and it gets the moisture out. Just empty the water out. You should look at your set-up from a Moisture cycle not a Insulation perspective. The Hive 4 Pack I describe is the arranging of 4 Hives 2 deep body in a square and then wrapping with paper backed fibreglass battens and a lid to keep the snow off. This arrangement over wintered the hives with Temps reaching -40 in Northern Alberta. The Enemy for Over-wintering is moisture control and minimizing the useless space that is included in the Hive requiring energy to Heat, using energy creates moisture from the respiration of the shivering cluster.
@Michael-yl2iq
@Michael-yl2iq 3 жыл бұрын
I am starting to keep bees this year. Getting ready to install packages into hives this weekend. I will be very interested to see what happens after your changes. I have just built 3 Layens design hives that are similar to your own. Different size frames but basically the same overall horizontal design. Only difference is I left 3" open space below frames and have a gable roof. I have plenty of space for absorbent material between frames and gable roof with vents. So after seeing your experience I will place absorbent material in the fall. Please post any other thoughts you have.
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
2 big keys to this all is 1 vent better to have too much then not enough. 2 moisture absorbed material for winter months. Bees don't die because it's cold out side. As long as they are healthy and the mites count is low they will work hard keeping the hive warm in the winter. But by doing so there is a lot of condensation which they create and if there is nothing to catch that then it will drop on them and they will drown. If there is to much vents then some can be closed but to try to create the vents in the winter when there is not enough then you can brake a cluster and they won't survive. Good luck if you have any questions i can answer please send me a message. And thank you for your comment.
@SilentDeath002
@SilentDeath002 3 жыл бұрын
i have been building these horizontals for years. take a look at one of my flat roof horizontals and pay attention to the bottom drawer vent locations, frame cover vents and dormer vent locations on the sides of the roofs. its better to have more vents then you need then you have the option to reduce air flow if need be. also in the roof i install a bag with saw dust, (i have two the same size) that absorbs any extra moisture ,and switch one out with fresh bag and let the first one dry out. this keeps the excess moisture in check and stops any moisture build up and stops mold inside the hive. any questions, ill be glad to help you out. note, i would not use that foam in the roof in that way. thats for the bag of saw dust
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
I was going to remove the roof and then the top trim and make the trim higher @ least 2" so I can install a box with wood chips to absorb the moisture. The fum board i can't remove because I glue it but was thinking to install more vents. If you have a link to how you build yours please attach it love to watch it. I'm still learning a lot on the horizontal hive not much experience in that. Thank you for your comment it makes sense
@SilentDeath002
@SilentDeath002 3 жыл бұрын
@@charnas2790 pick up a few of these bags from amazon to contain and maintain control of the wood chips www.amazon.com/Linen-Burlap-Potato-Sacks-Pack/dp/B01H5ZMH1C/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=burlap+bags&qid=1618050754&sr=8-2 they are cheap and you want to be able to rotate the bags so one is air drying while the other is in the hive absorbing excess moisture. you can trace a rectangular pattern around a major part of the fum board and cut it out with a jig saw and use that as a support for the bag to lay in, just might need a few strings going across for additional support.
@SilentDeath002
@SilentDeath002 3 жыл бұрын
@@charnas2790 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/etNhncJqxs-Yqps.html there is a link to one of my you tube flat roof design horizontals. shows inside view on one ,and a complete set up beside it. i do make peaked roof and double deep horizontals, and even make them out of 2 inch cedar
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
@@SilentDeath002 does bags are big. Do you fall them so they are double layer. On my vertical hive I use cotton cloth to absorb the moisture it works great. But with the horizontal hive didn't do it
@SilentDeath002
@SilentDeath002 3 жыл бұрын
@@charnas2790 my idea was to save you from having to rebuild your roof. it already has enough room. the board you have attached with vent to your inside of the roof? leave say 3 inches around on all edges and cut a rectangular part out of the middle. fabricate some cloth straps and fill bag so its about 2 inches thick and place in opening. use straps to secure it so it wont fall thru. now up on the out side of the roof , same area bags are in you want some vents. that allows air flow from bottom of hive,thru brood area, and thru the bags and out the vents. thats what you want for a horizontal. its easy to set them up for a lot of air flow. if it ever becomes to much air, cut a piece of foam to close off one or two vents. lack of air flow promotes mold. we can take care of your problem easy lol. by the way , nice job on your horizontal build.
@venerablev4835
@venerablev4835 3 жыл бұрын
You are being too tough on yourself here I think. Doug has another video out where he has had similar issues, and I found you after searching for more opinions on horizontal hives. The thing I noticed was he had circular vents on the sides and there was a screen vent in the bottom. Also his frames seem butt together flush at the top. I hope you have already discovered a solution, thanks for showing your experience.
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
Im working on it not giving up just yet. Thank you for your comment and thanks for watching
@joostsmit1767
@joostsmit1767 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing.Could it be that your hive is too well build??Building a Top Bar Hive by Phil Chandler and Keeping Bees with a smile by Fedor Lazutin might give you more information about solutions for condensation. The use of shellac and the eco floor were for me very helpful,and no vents and straw on top worked quite well.Good luck!
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
The goal was to give the girls good warm home for winter as it gets cold in the north east. Though was if insulation is apply they would work less in the winter to keep them warm. As with everything. Insulation and ventilation are the key to success. If you saw the amount of bees that got removed was just amazing. In the season the hive was putting numbers like crazy. If I aply same method with catching moisture and ventilation that I use in the conventional hive. Today they would be flying. I already have plans drown up and will make new one over the winter. Thank you so much for your comment and thank you for watching.
@michaeldautel7568
@michaeldautel7568 3 жыл бұрын
Cold does not Kill Bees, Moisture and Cold and Moisture and Heat kills Bees! I built a Insulated shell around my Hive 4 pack and the Bees all died because of the Condensation from the Bees breathing not being able to get out. A similar Hive 4 pack just wrapped with fibreglass batts survived with no moisture Problems. I believe mosture from the bee breath condensed on your styrofoam lid cover and the moisture rained on your top boards and started dripping into the frames. this I believe caused the bees to try and seal off the vent holes with Deadly results!
@MrMagicDennisWeir
@MrMagicDennisWeir 3 жыл бұрын
I overwintered bees in a long Lang like yours. I believe your moisture problem developed due to the type of insulation used. Need to remove and use "breathable" insulation. Everything else is OK.
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
And yes sir. You are right about that. That's for sure. Going back to drawing board and improving what I mess up. One thing is when your colony dies because of other factors then because i didn't think through the winter months it was my fault. Not giving up that for sure
@1wildwackywoman
@1wildwackywoman 3 жыл бұрын
@@charnas2790 I’m no expert, but here’s a thought. Since the bees closed off the vents in your cover boards, moisture was not able to escape. What if you had another set of cover boards with vents and swap those out in the winter when the bees are clustered and not moving around much. I’m just starting my research on using long Lang’s, so I know next to nothing about horizontal beekeeping.. I’ve been old-school for five years with standard 10 frame Langstroth hives. I appreciate you making this video. You are helping to pave the way. You may have lost some bees and I can definitely hear the disappointment in your voice, but by sharing this video, you were helping more people to be successful. When we all share our experiences, the hive box will continue to be a better environment for the bees. In my research, I go so far as to read the comments on the videos that I consider have value. Someone else commented about breathable insulation. I’m not sure what that is but it sounds like a better choice than that solid foam. I live about an hour from the coast in SW Washington State, USA. 500 ft level and fairly moderate temperatures. We get a lot of rain, pretty much 8 months out of the year. On my Langstroth hives, I swear by what we call a garden top, which just means it has a pitched roof. I never use anything like a quilt board or cedar shavings or anything like that. I have never had a problem with moisture, ever. I successfully overwintered four colonies this year. I live on a city lot that is just under a quarter of an acre.
@pwkeely
@pwkeely 3 жыл бұрын
Did opening it up cause them to lose the air pocket they had heated up?
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately not. By going through the entire hive today frame by frame. I was shaking each frame and the amount of water that was in them. It was not enough air flow as well nothing to trap the moisture. Sadly you know the outcome but I have a solution. Not giving up on this insulation hive yet. Thank you so much for your comment. Grateful to get some responses from people. Thank you
@pwkeely
@pwkeely 3 жыл бұрын
@@charnas2790 I am building some hives soon for a Mid April NUC delivery. Excited and nervous!
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
@@pwkeely trying new things only expends our knowledge even if we fail.
@pwkeely
@pwkeely 3 жыл бұрын
I follow you for that very reason. I am thinking about video documenting my adventure. The good,The Bad, and the Ugly. We can't all be rockstars out the gate and my mistakes might help someone else succeed
@cmathews5909
@cmathews5909 3 жыл бұрын
@@pwkeely I literally read about this in Dr. Leos "Keeping Bee's With a Smile" last night on page 55 - I lost my colony last July to SHB after upgrading to larger hive so I study to avoid more rookie mistakes. I was checking out the cover of your hive and it seemed that it was missing the ventilation holes suggested in the book. The top hole is supposed to made earlier in the season and the bees are suppose to make the adjustments to airflow first with their bodies and then with propolis. I see the vent on the side but maybe you added the insulation and that obstructed airflow. Otherwise, great looking hive.
@gregw3437
@gregw3437 3 жыл бұрын
You never stated your mite situation clearly as if this is a non-issue. Some non-named strips placed during the unclear time. Most likely it IS the primary issue. But anyway: - have to have air pockets (must remove part of the frames as not necessary - have air pocket instead) - just use filtering insulation above (I use polyester blankets folded over) - think how is your own house is insulated - you have freely ventilated attic with filtering insulation layer - do the same for your bees. - as well good to have larger under-frame air-buffer; too shallow long hives are not great in cold places I use Layens configured as I listed and the moisture is never an issue for me (in a colder part of US Midwest). It is the mite management that gets me.
@charnas2790
@charnas2790 3 жыл бұрын
Mites count was done in the middle of peak time that was in midle of July and @ the peak of August and as well going in to the winter months. That was not a issue here. Just moisture. By staying on top of the mites as goes for that issue I'm almost 95%success rate as goes for the rest of my hives and even the one I lost. Lesson learned. In the process of remaking the hive. Thank you for your comment and thoughts and thank you for watching and sharing