i have two immortal daughters

And they were two beauties!

+ phillip the second, Alexander the great's father studied tactics from Epaminondas since he was raised in Thebes as prisoner -guarantee (sorry my English is not my main language)

@@monsteras90 Correct. Interestingly, the tactics Philip used at the battle of Charonea were very similar to the battle of leuctra. Epaminondas and Pelopidas must have mentored him well.

@@TheStrategos392 Cheronea is 10 kilometers from where i live btw. There is a huge monument of a lion there that macedonians eraised to honour the sacred band that fought to the last man and hold their ground to the end.

@@monsteras90 so in English “prisoner-guarantee” is “hostage,” but “political prisoner” or “political hostage” would also work for people you suspect aren’t familiar with that particular custom. You also would have wanted to say “Thebes as a prisoner.” Missed an “a,” not a big mistake. Pretty solid grasp, I don’t even know a second language so you’re at least one up on me.

@@TheStrategos392 yea I didn't know anything about him before this video. And after watching, I read about him. He invented the Refused Flank deployment! Lol I use that strategy nearly everytime I play a war game ( warhammer 40k & Necromunda). It works everytime too! So long as my dice rolls hold average and my dumbass doesn't move the models to a position that contradicts the strategy lol.

@friendlyTroll (laughs)

Sparta would not use helots in its army.... the perioikoi possibly, but never helots. The Spartan state had virtually enslaved the population of Messenia at the end of the 7th century BC (these were the helots). The group was brutally oppressed by the Spartan homoioi (or Equals), a practice which offended the other Greek city states. Epaminondas, having disrupted Spartan power at Leuctra and at 2nd Mantinea did much to revive the Messenian state which contributed to the eventual demise of Spartan society.

@@Lonigo77 From Britannica: "During wartime helots attended their masters on campaign and served as light-armed troops and sometimes also as rowers in the fleet." And the Wiki on the Battle of Plataea: "According to Herodotus, the Spartans sent 45,000 men - 5,000 Spartiates (full citizen soldiers), 5,000 other Lacodaemonian hoplites (perioeci) and 35,000 helots (seven per Spartiate).[33] "

@friendlytroll um, how old are you? You were there? You forget the VICTORS record history, not the defeated.

That's a trope. And not a true one. Sparta won the Peloponnesian War, but it was an Athenian who wrote the history. Losers always write their versions of history.

Their world dreams died at the invasion and defeat at Syracuse 414BC …..

@@RoyalZarak Actually, they made a comeback until their arrogance again caused a later downfall.

@@charleshimes1634 yes the prob for the athenians was not the money but how they used them for their own good life.

There are many similarities between spartan and roman government system.

They were a sort of Prime Minister, the real Commanders were called "Efori". They decided to stop the battle that the spartans wanted to continue

@@OkurkaBinLadin They were both autocratic/oligarchic slave states. Of course everyone in the region practiced slavery to some extent in the era, but Sparta and Rome were particularly egregious, and both states were built by slavery, and absolutely and fundamentally relied on it. Persia, for example, judging by primary sources had a much smaller slave footprint. Slavery was a part of the Persian Empire, but it wasn't the foundation of the state and its economy.

Perfect!!!!@!!

Very true! We can add that quite probably the longer Theban spears did outreach the Spartan ones in the initial clash, killing or wounding most of the experienced and ablest soldiers (including the king Kleombrotus) who were drawn up in the front rank, and before the other ranks were able to put their shorter spears to good use, the Theban 48-50 deep formation pressed forward, in the classical "othismos aspidon" (push of shields) that always followed the initial "storm of spears" of most hoplite battles. The Spartans were quite simply pushed back and rolled over by the four-fold deeper and heavier Theban column formation, and crumbled in their hundreds. This is why their casualties were so high, they did not retreat but were simply stumbled over, trampled to death and killed off. When seeing this, the rest of the army, which was composed of Peloponnesian allies, lost all their will to fight and quickly started to retreat, and then to fly. Again, most were simply cut down by the pursuing Thebans, as was common in most ancient battles. The big discrepancy in casualties between the victorious and losing side was not peculiar to this one battle, but was the usual outcome of almost all engagements in ancient times, as most losses were inflicted once one side had been broken, and was retreating in disarray, incapable of offering organised resistance, and was literaly cut down one by one by the pursuing enemy (at Leuktra, in particular, this was the work of the Theban cavalry).

​@@gabrielmendella Othismos theory is a myth. There was no organized pushing match in massive formations. It's a figure of speech for "clash". Same as we say "they clashed with their swords and their shields". It was not literal organized physical push from lines behind , but pushing the enemy to gain ground. Word othismos was also used when you "gain ground" or win a rethorical argument over your opponent. Of course there were some indivdual cases of pushing with a shield but massive shove almost never happened. There was only one mention of attempt massive shield shove at battle of Coronea in 394 BC, that historians like to use as argument for "othismos aspidon" but they forget the major fact that these were extreme circumstances when Thebans attempted breakthrough. Thebans were surrounded at ending phase of battle, when Spartans came behind them, so Thebans wanted to break through and retreat back to safety, charging with their shields at Spartan formation, and that proved fatal for the Thebans because many of them are killed in that massive push. Turns out that charging towards wall of spears will get you killed fast.

All interesting speculation but we really don’t know and are guessing, as were historians of the time. Informed guessing but like all guessing, it could be way off. I’m glad humans try to figure out what might have happened but we all need a huge dollop of humility in declaring with any assurance what “actually” happened.

@@tommyrq180 Unlike other ancient historians, Xenophon lived at time period when these battles happened. He was a soldier. He was there in Asia minor marching with 10 000. He wrote "Anabis". He lived in Lacedemon. His son died fighting alongside Lacedemonians so Im pretty sure he knew exactly what was going on. Besides, there is no interpertation or middle ground for "long weapons". Infantry at the time was using spears, so there is no guessing or speculation what spear with longer reach "could possibly mean". Of course we don't have any evidence from that time period therefore we can't be 100% sure but we can assume by using logic and deduction. We know Epaminondas was great inovator in military. We know Xenophon mentioning that in battle of Sparta, Lacedemonians this time had "longer weapons", he also mentioned skirmishes being placed among ranks of Theban "hoplites" (Alexander the Great used such tactics). We know Philip II of Macedon (father of Alexander) was hostage of Epaminondas, learning everything from him. And soon as he took power Philip II of Macedon reformed his army into phalangites. So we can assume with some certainty that Epaminondas was most liklely inovator of phalangites.

Welcome aboard! I am planning to verge into that territory after covering Alexander the Great!

@@HoH Awesome! Thank you for the great content again - have a happy holidays and I am sure I speak for many when I say I look forward to future uploads.

Even so, Aristotle spent many years in Macedonia tutoring Alexander and many Macedonians looked to Greece proper for cultural inspiration. This was similar to the "barbarians" of Roman times who admired and were influenced by Rome and adopted many Roman customs.

@@charleshimes1634 The Greeks themselves, especially the Athenian historians and orators often spoke of the "bar-baroi" as non-kinsman or non-Greeks and Phillip (after his conquest of the Greek city-states) was scolded by the Athenians and deemed a barbarian, because he was a Macedonian. And while the Macedonian nobility might have been taught to speak ancient Greek or taught about Greek culture, it didn't make them Greeks. Now when it comes to customs and culture, Alexander respected and incorporated many elements of the different cultures in his now vast empire (after conquering Persia). If I go back a couple of decades, Cyrus the Great (the Achaemenid king) subjugated many different people but always let them worship their own gods or cherish their own culture. As the Persian empire was expanding, so was it's multicultural society. Cyrus is even venerated in the Hebrew Bible as Cyrus the Messiah for conquering Babylon and liberating the Jews from captivity. And one of the idols that Alexander probably had was Cyrus himself. Remember, Alexander visited and was influenced by many different parts of the known world. He made many cities in his name and bearing his name.

Glad you think so!

I plan to!

pretty sure they were standing right next to them

You must be a Greek! Most Americans in school learn that Sparta won the Peloponnesian War and then Greek history stops for them until Alexander's time. Some Americans don't even know that much. I remember Charlie Rose on TV (Who always was trying to impress his guests about how much he knew about every subject under the sun) remark - "Aw, the Peloponesian War, Athens won that one". His guest on the show had to correct him. Charlie Rose was kind of a blowhard and it embarrassed him immensely. I loved it as I was not a fan of his. It's refreshing that your comment here shows that you've done much more research. Thank you. I, for my part, am waiting for an epic movie about the life of Alcibiades. Maybe you could be a consultant to such a project.

Excuse me but there are few points that make nosense. Cleombrotus I young and unexperienced? He lead literally three expedition against Thebes and Athens in 378BC, 376BC and 374BC respectively, having success in the last one in Boeotia and staying in there until 371BC. Most allies of both side didn't want to fight. Both Cleombrotus and Epaminondas were worried of desertion but mostly of the lost of their reputation in their home-cities. Epaminondas change the traditional formation used in classical greek warfare aiming to the command square, just where Cleombrotus was to eliminate him. About the Romans losing against the greek phalanx, you are forgotting that Pyrrhus not only can't break the roman formation, but also started losing ground. For that Pyrrhus send his secret weapons that was never see in Italy: War Elephants that scare in fear the romans. And even with that Pyrrhus lose much men what him expected. After losing Leuctra the Spartan weren't angry and want to keep the war. They were desperate that Thebes will just walk in their city easily and start pleading for peace. Also Xenophon, who was more friendly with Agesilaus II, admited that the spartan wheren't progressives in change they combat styles, that's one reason they cavalry, archery and skirmisher sucks. The boeotians didn't attacked Sparta because they wanted as a counter weight against Athens. Plus they set free the helots in Messenia and rebuilt the city of Megalopolis to make them a counter weight against Sparta, plus taking a lot of fertile land shrinking the already flimsy spartan economy. The Battle of Mantinea (362BC) is considered by most historians (ancient and modern) a Theban military victory, even if their leaders die in combat or by thier wounds. Plus the mantinean leader, Podares, die first. Thebes was destroyed by Alexander III of Makedon, but even him recognized their achievements who help him conquer the Persian Empire. and later after taking Persepolis dedicated his victories to "ALL THE GREEKS, EXCEPT THE SPARTANS." Where you get the info that the Sacred Band was killed by the mantineans? And to put an end, the romans keep Sparta has a tourist attraction park where they enjoy watching the Ritual Beating of the "young spartan warriors"

@@hernanreipp3321 answer when I can. I don't have my library with me. Updating. I remembered wrong in some parts, for example the sacred batalion was humiliated (not destroyed) from light armoured soldiers of Corinto, not of Mantinea who were allied. Cleombroto went in Beotia, but did nothing the first time, loosing a battle second time so the spartans had to call Agesilao. Didn't get the age. Mantinea was not a theban victory, I confirm, as Senofonte writes. Of course this is my opinion. I think that we really don't know a lot about the ancient wars and perhaps they were all different. Still updating and I'm not seeing a real spartan power. Attacking a city trying not to conquer it seems a little funny

Apart from making it easier to fill in gaps for longer and providing more stability against pushes, deeper ranks improve morale because everyone feels more confident with more allies around them. They also prevent fighters from fleeing - the ones in the front because they're firmly surrounded by allies, and the ones in the back (who'd have it easiest) by keeping them further away from the danger that would scare them.

I believe the gay story about the sacred band of thebes came from thebans disguised as women infiltrating their spartan overlords party and killing them thus starting the war

LOL! LOL LOL LOL! The Sacred Band. Legend. Cheers

I like the movie 300, and if I drove a pickup truck I wouldn't mind putting "Molan Labe" on it. Got no problem with the Sacred Band, kind of makes sense to create a military force of gay lovers. In battle your fighting for your fellow soldiers so it makes sense that they would fight harder for the one they love. Not too different than the Spartans and how they would create units that would have your family members in it to make you fight harder.

Thats the benefit of having an actual culture that isnt only We strong military

Sparta has achieved a legendary status though.

As much as we like to complain about our flawed democracies, fewer people desire to live in a pure military society where the cities are basically armed camps who have to keep close watch over the majority of the population who are basically slaves.

Literally, every soldier in front was pushed forward by the soldier in is back given a more strong offensive force when advancing and at the same time a strong defense when stopping enemy charges. That is the basic concept in the early phalanx formation. The spear is essential in these type of fight because his long range (in that times) and the wounds that inflict will disrupt the opponent formation making it hard to counteract. Also have in mind that to use the Dory (greek name of the spear) more effective the formation in the offensive need to have more men when attacking to break the opponent formation in defense. And yes is obviously that more men in a row will have better chances to beat the other row with fewew men.

Any academic source. But here as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes?wprov=sfla1

@@HoH lol yes i'm familiar with wikipedia and "modern academia". But, I prefer primary sources. I look forward to you providing a primary source

Give Pelopidas by Plutarch a read. I can't post everything here, but: ""So tribe might tribe, and kinsmen kinsmen aid." but that he should have joined lovers and their beloved. For men of the same tribe or family little value one another when dangers press; but a band cemented by friendship grounded upon love is never to be broken, and invincible; since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another. Nor can that be wondered at since they have more regard for their absent lovers than for others present; as in the instance of the man who, when his enemy was going to kill him, earnestly requested him to run him through the breast, that his lover might not blush to see him wounded in the back. It is a tradition likewise that Iolaus, who assisted Hercules in his labours and fought at his side, was beloved of him; and Aristotle observes that, even in his time, lovers plighted their faith at Iolaus's tomb. It is likely, therefore, that this band was called sacred on this account"

It depends - at the Battle of Naxos the Spartan navy was destroyed. I am not sure if that's what you're referring to.

More in the sense that the Lacedaemon weren't exactly known for that. It was mostly their allies like Corinth who actually supplied a fleet. A bit like the Persian fleet actually being Phoenician. Which might then seem pedantic but the city states were still very independent and varied.

@@quasima sparta had a fleet

lol

LOL!

That is a very arrogant comment. Thebes after Leuctra established themselves as the main force in Hellenic territory, even managed to invade Sparta territory and free elotes and messinians which were slaves of Sparta for centuries (that was unthinkable by then and sacred band played massive role in Theban dominance). Also in Chaeronea the sacred band was the only force of the allied army that did not fled, stayed and fought to the last man against macedonian cavalry, Athenians made the disastrous mistakes that cost the battle. Philip after the combat stare the dead bodies of the sacred band and said "curse to those who will speak ill about these brave men". They got buried all together, excavation appeared 254 men that were buried under a huge lion monument that macedonians eraised to honour the sacred band. They were the elite force of their time.

Shhh. You'll only invite scores of them on here to try to prove you wrong.

Were those here not real spartans

I'm currently working on the battle of Chaeronea. Contemporary Greek city-states did not consider Macedonians Greek. Their dialect was different and they considered the kingdom to lag in many respects.

@@HoH Well you have answered none of my questions but let's follow your way of thinking. Spartans thought of themselves to be superior to all other Greek city states. So, Spartans are the only Greeks. P.S. : Can you show a text that says what are you claiming?

@@HoH Dude come on. You have a history KZfaq channel. Claiming that Macedonians were not Greeks is embarrassing for you. Even the most zealous supporters of this lie(modern day slavs of North Macedonia Republic) acknowledged this in 2018. I mean what are you thinking 😂

@@HoH yet you place epirus which was pretty much the same with macedon as greek

Nowhere in the video did I say Macedonians weren't Greeks.

That's a myth

@@jothegreek it's not a myth, it's recorded in Greek history. Now I'm not homophobic at all I know what I like and don't like and I'm comfortable with my sex life, but you seem like you might have some insecurities saying "it's a myth" and then not providing an explanation. Also, "Myth" is a word that not long ago meant the same thing as "history" or "story".

@@Nervii_Champion it's a myth it's only referred by one writer that loved centuries later

@@jothegreek I highly doubt a unit that has been recorded as doing many many things by many different sources, but also pretty much every other army and country in the world has formed groups out of their most elite soldiers so to say this is fantasy is a bit far fetched.

@@Nervii_Champion what you doubt do some research the myth of gay lovers is based on the writing of one guy

Most of the greeks in that period considered the Macedonians barbarians like the Thracians. Plus a lot of ancient leaders in that times will said that he is the son/descendant of an anciente hero or demigod to support their acts of conquest.

You don’t know what you are talking about… Barbarians they call all who still have a different political system than the classic southern city states! Like the epirotes! Like the Macedonians. Both kingdoms! These “barbarians” have nothing to do with the other “ barbarians” like the Getes, or the Illyrians to the north that all Greeks knows them as not only enemies but also as different race of people! If Macedonians wouldn’t be Greeks then they wouldn’t participate to the Olympic Games where only proved Greek origin people could participate.. Also if Phillip was not Greek or Alexander, I am sure they would create another claim of a non Greek hero or DemiGod as you call it, and not two of the most famous Greek heroes! Listen.. Go have a cup of milk and then calm down..read real history and not propaganda..and then we can chat again.. Bye bye!

Also if you have the ba..lls and some money in the pocket, go travel to the original Macedonia in Greece (not the north Monkeydonia of the Slav thieves..) and visit the ancient capital of Phillip and Alexander , the city of Pella! Go to the tombs of the ancient Macedon Kings..Go read all inscriptions there..modern Greeks can still read them..Understand them and they can explain you, along with all the names of these people (Alexander, Phillip, Philotas, Hefastion, Cleopatra and thousand others) that have meaning only in. Greek Language… In any way you want to see this, in scientific, in dna tests that universities like Harvard and Yeil did and found that the Greek people of today have the same blood with the Mycenaeans and the Minoans and the southern Greeks the same DNA with the sceletons found in Macedonian tombs, will scream to you the same truth: That Macedonians were Greeks.. All the rest I leave it for archeologists , historians and museums..Go to NY the Met and see.. All the rest is garbage… PS: in modern times we like to say everyone is free to declare he is whatever he likes.. Well..I am sorry for you but the ancient Macedonians were saying they are Greeks, and that’s why the spread on all their empire the Greek culture, science and language.. All the rest is bullshit…