Legend has it once every thousand years Kyle will come out of the tyre warmer he sleeps in and make a new video 👀 already can’t wait for the next one!!!

There's going to be a few suspension videos with this model coming, hope you enjoyed this one! Drop any video requests below!

to address some possible disadvantage for this kind of heave spring, you have to be careful if you are using nonlinear motion ratio for your dampers/rockers. using nonlinear motion ratio with a T-bar type heave spring can result in higher roll stiffness, because the T-bar will not just rotate about the vertical axis but also pivot about the lateral axis resulting in compression of the heave spring in roll. Also your single wheel bump stiffness will increase, which may not be a problem for relatively smooth track surface on most of the permanent race tracks. but ie. for hillclimb cars, higher bump stiffness may cost you more performance that you gain with aero. in some cases it may be better to minimize your contact patch load variation than adding loads of downforce to the car, it depends mostly on the tyres you are using

I've seen that line on some racing simulations but never found a clear explenation. You fixed the issue, thanks :D

I have been trying to understand this concept for a decade now, since they were introduced in IndyCars. I finally get it! Thank you!

Here we go. Last time I looked at this was in milliken and milliken

This is fantastic! We just bought Dallara F3 with 3rd element suspension and i was very curious how it works and why does it have 3rd shock with spring. Now i know and because of you i fully understand it. Thank you, Kyle!

That was fantastic, really enjoyed the animated model of the suspension. This video really got me thinking.

Serious FSAE vibes on the aero

Learn something cool everyday. Hadn't even heard of this before; CAD models were insanely helpful!

All around best automotive engineering channel, there is!! Thanks a lot!!!

This was great! I have understood how the inboard suspension works but never knew about the heave setups. Very cool!

came for some aero stuff for uni project, stayed for the better than the professor explanation!!! GOOD SHIT!!

Great video! Taught me more than first year motorsport engineering!

Thank you, that was the simplest, clearest and most concise explanation of one of the cleverest mechanical solutions that I have seen in many, many years. Both setups that you put together were, to my thinking, the most excellent and elegant way that it could possibly be done and each solution perfectly suited the differing conditions required front and rear with, as you showed so well, the rear wheels that just go in a straight line can use a simpler but perfectly effective system and the sheer elegance of then setting up for the front wheels that turn and squirm in ways the rear is unable, well, thank you, I cannot tell you how pleased my mind is with what you have shared, thank you. By that I mean, with absolute respect, that in the way my heart responds when hearing a clever and very funny joke that spontaneously makes me laugh, when I hear music that stirs my soul, when I taste something that makes my knees go weak, that’s kind of how my mind feels at the moment, satiated and content having learned a great new treasure that some very, very clever person figured out and wow, good on them, that is sheer genius and good on you for showing us how clever they truly are, thanks mate, good onya from down under ,’o~)

Wow! Super interesting and quite clear explanation! Love this!

Back in the dickity day we used to run “Z” bars. Packaging on a modern open wheeler would not be great, but they may be a solution on a time attack car.

Awesome video ! Thanks for taking the time to share

wow im just enter in this motorsport world and your videos are so good!, awesome bro! keep going

This was way more interesting than I expected. And I came in interested to begin with :)

I love vehicle suspension systems. Unfortunately I know just a little about. That linkage in a front in this video is lit. Very well made video and thank for your work.

Suspension and aero stuff are rarely talked about in relation to power stuff. Subbed.

10:19 El tercer conjunto muelle-amortiguador sirve para limitar la altura mínima del eje, es decir, evita que el eje baje más allá de cierto punto, además contrarresta el efecto de la barra estabilizadora en línea recta, por lo que se puede emplear una barra estabilizadora mucho más rígida. Los conjuntos muelle-amortiguador no van unidos a los brazos de la suspensión directamente, sino a través de un "bell crank", de esta manera pasan a ser masa suspendida y se logra una disminución de la masa no suspendida con la consiguiente mejora en comodidad y rendimiento. Los 2 conjuntos muelle-amortiguador han de estar un poco más verticales (como en el Ferrari Purosangue) posición diagonal y no completamente horizontal, de esta manera podremos emplear una idea similar al sistema de amortiguadores TrueActive de Multimatic de Ferrari. Si bien es verdad que seguimos manteniendo el fluido magnetoreológico en contraposición a el mecanismo de orificios variables que tiene este sistema, la idea que copiamos es la tuerca y el perno de baja fricción que permiten retraer o expandir el eje del amortiguador, para levantar o bajar cada una de las 4 esquinas del coche de forma independiente y mucho más rapido que una suspensión neumática. Para poder implementar esta idea los 2 amortiguadores deben estar en diagonal, ni completamente horizontal, ni completamente vertical.

I learned so much! Thanks! great video

Great video. I'd love to see you develop this further with a discussion of the mono-shock design and how it separates heave and roll in comparison.

this will help me a lot . for assetto corsa car setups .

Great video, I noticed in the first set up the corner springs/dampers are only really controlling the warp mode, could you go into a bit of detail about removing them for a mono-shock design please? I have always been interested in them for a weight/cost saving measure but would be interested in some of the problems that may be present?

great vid thanks

Great video! I wonder with which Programm this was made?

Could you do a video visualizing the direction of forces between tire and road during a combination of turning and accelerating/braking and what happens if you do too much of both at the same time?

Thank you

I'd be interested in the different types and styles of various probes on F1 cars. Like all the metal dots underneath the Ferrari front wing seen in the picture of Vettel carrying it after a crash.

Great video Kyle!!!!! I have a request. Can you illustrate how you would implement a Tbar on the type of rear suspension setup your model uses ? I’m looking to do that on the front of a build I’m doing and would love to see your thoughts. Thanks!!!

Question: Is damping important for the heave spring ? Ie can it be just a spring rather than a coilovers, just like the anti roll Bar? Relying omly on the corner coilovers to do the damping. That way there's one less variable (heave spring damping rate) to worry about.?

Excelent explanation, eye opening on the setup options. Question: is it realistic to exploit the ride height vs downforce curve and the heave spring setup in order to implement the same effect as a flexy wing? I mean maximising down force at medium speed and trying to reduce drag at higher speed?

Remarkable to see in my lifetime the changes with suspension systems on open-wheel racers. Look back at some of the F1 cars of the 1960s, such as McLaren M7A, where it had exposed coil springs in the front and rear suspension. Car builders back then, such as Colin Chapman for Lotus and Dan Gurney with AAR Eagle seemed better aware of the aero drag of exposed coil springs; where they had the font suspension coil springs mounted inboard with their F1 racers.

Please please PLEASE come out with your course on aero design!!!

Really could do with your help on my Pulsar build, I’m moving the rad to be back I’ve got lots of options for ducting but I have no idea what who be best in terms of not having a negative effect on aero.

Very cool stuff. Do you know of any time attack cars in Aus running this kind of setup other than the ex JGTC silvia? Love seeing it.

what program is this? amazing video, complex linkages are something I've wanted to try an wrap my head around for a while

Hi Kyle, which programme are you using to illustrate your fantastic explanation? Thank you very much!

Fantastic. Does anyone place the other shock to only work from roll? Maybe from bell crank to bell crank but on opposite sides of the pivot?

Thanks for this great video - I am at the early stages of designing my own Exo road/track day car. I plan to have some wing and "ground effect" floor in the car. I was wondering if it is worth me using this T bar set up or is it only really any use with cars with large amounts of down force? If it would be good how do I work out the spring/damping for the T bar, also what size bar should the T bar be? Or is flattened tube an option so I can rotate it to change the amount of force needed to bend it (a bit like the chassis bars used on karts). Also does this system mean the suspension has an amount of anti-dive on the brakes?

Is the 3 element a spring-damper element with all the different adjustments (high/low speed, rebound, pretension etc) that usual suspensions present, or is it something unnecessary and left aside?

What do you think about using air bag suspension with ride height sensors to achive simular effect ? In road car based suspension systems retrofitting a air bag seems to be easier than 3 shock pushrod suspension.

I like that the heave damper eyelets are counter rotating

Maybe I missed it but it wasn’t clear to me how the heave setup you showed allowed for independent adjustment of heave and pitch. It seemed to me to be a heave/pitch sdu. Are there setups with independent spring/dampers for heave and pitch? Is there any benefit for that? I imagine an independent heave setup would necessitate a front and rear interconnect of some sort. Is that the case? Cool video! Thanks!

Hey Kyle I know KZfaq probably isnt the place for this but i am having issues testing 2D simulations with an fsae undertray. The data trend I'm finding shows the most downforce on the 2D under tray happens at a 0 deg inlet angle and this data doesn't match with an FSAE paper I'm trying to replicate. Is it possible to help with this issue with my simulations or to direct me to good sources that could shed light on what part of my simulations is causing my issues?

Could you please do a video on motion ratio regarding rockers increasing stiffness in bump so as to keep softer wheel rate at low aero and increasing for higher aero. This rate can be changed by rotating the rockers. Cheers Gary

8:22 What do you mean, the heave spring doesn't act at all in roll? The vertical tube of the T-bar is an anti-roll bar. If it's so rigid that it doesn't twist, as one wheel lifts 2", the lateral member of the T-bar moves straight back and the other wheel will lift 2" as well, compressing the heave spring.

There's a lot to this!

do specific race aero/suspension alalysis videos.

Can you do a video on the yamaha ox99 its a interesting design with a very weird front wing

Is it possible to run a high aero car very high off the ground and (highly) effectively use vortex generators to seal the underbody/tunnels/floor and also prevent rear tire squirt with the same vortex?

first you got me interested in aerodynamics, now you got me interested in suspension. I wonder what it will be next!

so on a regular car, it would be something that looks like a push bike rear spring and shock mounted in the middle of the front swaybar on a certain length of lever under the engine?

Awesome video Just a quick question: how does the system you showed in the front allow for the movement of one wheel independently?

How would you construct a Collapsing Heavy Spring? That is a heave-spring which will resist compression until the down-force reaches a certain level and then collapses at a controllable rate.

What about tuned mass dampers? These vibrate opposite to the main vibration cancelling out the movement.

can you explain the integral link rear suspension?

did you try and use the animation tool in fusion instead of using the drawing board?

Hi qucik question does anyone know what program Kyle is running for this video thank you.

@KYLE.ENGINEERS Where from you got this graph with a maximum downforce @ 45mm front height? Looks like so weird

So from what I understood this can be implemented in hydroneumatic suspensions, like the ones used by mclaren?

Would this ever be used in a road sports car? Thank you

Nice one. I know what to experiment with my old Lego F1 car I have laying around somewhere. It has probably been done before and might not be suited for this car anyway, but who cares? It's buildin' time! :)

Are so-called third sliders the heave dampers in other words? I have a sim car to set up and under the third spring, there is a third slider deflection readout. Is it the heave damper I assume then?

Hello Kyle, excellent video as always. I am however curious what that 4th suspension mode is. I can't seem to find info online. Roll, pitch, heave and (?). I can't seem to make out what that word is! Thank you!

Hey, you probably won't read this but what do you think about the car that Mad Fórmula has presented for this season of formula student?

One questions after having thought aber the anti-roll-bar… is the anti-roll-bar mechanically (as the levers are arranged) not an anti-anti-roll-bar 😅? Because, if one wheel moves up, the other wheel moves down… so, the only tendency to resist roll is due to the torsional resistance? Couldn’t this be improved by arranging the levers in a way where mechanical arrangement and forces support anti-roll?

One question, what if you remove the two springs at the back and only have heave spring in the middle?

This is so relevant to what is happening now with the porpoising on the new car. What if there was a mechanical way to control the damper on the heave spring relative to ride height? ie. much more dampening when car ride height is compressed beyond optimal? maybe even on the independent dampers on the corners? just to keep the bouncing frequency to less than the oscillation for that track. is this possible? and is it legal?

how do dampers switch the damping intensity/viscosity of fluid medium for fast vs slow bump, rebound. Is it possible to have a suspension that will be gentle on the drivers' bottoms (and allow for easier vision without porpoising shakiness) and still maintain stable aero platform (kinda like how f1 drivers would like the 2022 cars to be)?

The system at 11:14 does not have any anti role effect does it?

What software do you use for the simulation?

Do something on Nissan delta wing please

Does the third element helps pitch? Like when the vehicle is under heaving braking and the vehicle starts to pitch forward. Would the third element help to prevent the vehicle from bottoming out in this case if you have a very low ride height?

wait, I'm confused. Wouldn't the T-bar induce roll? sure the torsion spring would reduce it, but 1 wheel being pushed up (during roll), pushes the other wheel down.... inducing more roll...?

I have a topic for you. You are right downforce increases with the square of the velocity for traditional wing elements, but for ground-effect cars, downforce also varies with the height of the car's skirt, even at a constant speed. Your thoughts? Personally, I think this is the origin of the current porpoising problem.

One important thing to note as well is that heave spring makes the anti roll Bar less effective. When the car is rolling the ARB now has to work harder fighting the heave spring to lift the other wheel. So heave spring stiffness increase must also be accompanied by ARB stiffness increase to compensate.

What about pull-rod suspension?

If you have the heave spring and the torsion bar for roll you could just leave out the 2 "main" springs, right? Not that this would make a lot of sense considering you have to keep the dampers anyways...

At the rear, that heave spring/damper does anti squat too or you'd have another system for that? (And same question for the front)

This was really cool to learn about but there's still one thing that's puzzling me. How would a team set up a non linear spring so that its got linear motion up to around 150kps, then suddenly drops 2-3 inches then goes back to linear motion like what was on the Mercedes in 2021. I just cant get my head around how you can get a traditional spring or torsion bar or react like that.

Now I wonder, how to tune heave stiffness without affecting the pitch stiffness? Or rather how to isolate heave from pitch (in the way that this video showed isolation of heave from roll)?

make a video on PEUGEOT 9X8 how can they have a car without a rare wing, ik it is possible but how effective it is, KYLE plzzz

What about heave vs pitch? I guess there's no way to distinguish them without some front to rear connection, but maybe I'm missing something.

People asked for a video on turbo fans. He does a video on heave springs

You’re a badass ❤️

huh, I've never heard about wanting different behavoir for all four wheels vs just two of them, nor how that might be accomplished.

I want to see what this would do on my RC car.

In summary, if I understand correctly, you would want to bottom out the heave spring a little before the corner springs bottom out, for purpose of ride height control.

woo boy

So how stiff are F1 "springs" (F and R), 150N/mm, more...?

I didn't even realize that heave was a thing.

Now it seems Redbull and Mercedes also were able to create such a non lineair stiffness in their wings End of last year. How would that be executed?

Anyone else catch that spinning eyelet on the front heave spring?

ok got it, time to install it in my grandpa's 1969 toyota corona...

Ohhh that's how GT (BRZ SuperGT) cars suspension setup. I know the general idea from logic, and FormulaE yt video but, I dont know the detail of "why need 3 suspension?"

I remember Gordon Murray saying that that to much downforce leads to a stiff suspension on road cars. I always thought there has to be a solution to that.