Funny you said this, I aimed to get 2 plates before Christmas starting in the end of august, I got it mid way through October, my friends who started at same time as me have been stuck on the same weights. It’s crazy how much genetics matter. I also train harder than then though in my opinion

Some crazy data - that one study that saw people making over 4x the gains of others blew my mind. Imagine how heartbreaking it would be if your training partner was over 4x'ing your results hahaha. I would stop training with that person and probably end the friendship.

@@JoeDelaneyy XDDD

Yeah, took me 3ish months to bench 90kg at 67kg BW. On the other hand you got people who still can't do 1 plate after 6 months while weighing a fair bit more. Glad I got the long end of the stick.

I've been going the gym consistently with a decent diet for the best part of 6-7 years and still haven't benched 2 plates.

Get some

Why wait? Having fat is good for building muscle

Super happy to hear you're getting into it. Hope you have great success. Keep going man!

thought of gettin on trt?

you got this man

These comments are good, I think being skeptical is good we need discourse in the fitness industry not gospel.

Yeah, the assumptions in this video are bs. 8 Kg in 12 weeks on average xdddddddd Did Joe smoke some weed prior to this video or what

Very good points. Also, arbitrarily adding 1kg to account for a potentially better diet (just because not strictly tracked) and other protocols is lazy; we cannot assume linear increases at already such high numbers (7.5kg), maybe logarithmic at best if you're going to blindly account for stuff like that. Anyway... just goes to show how little is known (understandably) about this shit.

@@r34ct4 I don't think giving educated guesses is "lazy"

He didn’t say 8kg on average in 12 weeks - that was for genetic outliers in fairly ideal conditions. I can well believe the figures. I’m 39, nothing special genetically, have exercised all my life but never dedicated it to hypertrophy, but having put my mind to it I’ve gained 5kg of lean mass in 6 months, and that’s with a desk job and a family to work around, so see no reason why someone a lot younger, in ‘ideal conditions’, couldn’t gain a lot more….

what kind of life do you have, that you can sleep 10hours?

Any side effects of TRT?

@@jekabsd A good one, it seems.

Greg doesn't say that if you're a noobie, he says likely around 10 pounds in first year which is 4.5kg, still much less ill give you that

I could have overestimated, but I have only gone from 4kg (actual study data) to 5kg assuming some improvements in training protocols etc. So I don't think it's that far of a reach. That being said, the 4kg group was the best performing group, not the study average overall, and 56 isn't a huge sample.

@@cormacdonnelly5015 the 4kg is actual data so I think even 4.5kg for a newbie is quite low IF (emphasis on if) we assume they have consistently good training/nutrition.

greg never said this, just go back to his video back in 2019, where he poste dthe possible amount of muscle gained in 1st year(it says, 8 to 12lbs of lean contractile tissue)

@@guerilla0926 that's encouraging in that case then. But as mentioned in this video, consistency in all parameters is key.

with this video you just learned bullshit

I said 1-2 years lifting experience and 2-2.5kg - in fairness, you have chosen both upper limits. Also in fairness, my assumptions might be wrong, but at least the actual data is right. So if people who had been lifting for an average of 4 years, 3x per week, gained 1kg in 12 weeks training 3x per week (and 30% were women), what do you think actually IS possible for a 25 year old male with 1-2 years lifting experience training 5x per week? One of my mistakes was probably equating 1kg in 8 weeks to 1.5kg in 12 weeks, since it's probably not linear. So an early assumption may have thrown off my end result a bit, but I still think for the most part each of my specific assumptions are there or thereabouts. But if you disagree with any of them specifically, let me know which and what you would say instead.

@@JoeDelaneyy Firstly, I appreciate you taking the time and actually read through and reply to what I've said. I think even if you take the lower bands of what you've estimated then you're still looking at approx. 35 kg of lean mass over 4 years which is still a massive overestimate. Not many people have the ability to go from 70kg to 105kg through lean mass in 4 years, and certainly not anyone close to average genetics. I do agree that you can't extrapolate data from studies, especially since you've only used a few, and even they have a pretty limited sample size. But I think the main issue is that the studies used DXA scans which are notoriously inaccurate in terms of body composition measurements and will overestimate in most cases. For example, if the participants have become carb loaded with the addition of generally drinking more water the DXA scan interprets all this new liquid mass as 'lean mass'. Obviously this initial water weight gain diminishes very quickly and this weight gain continue over past the 8 week period which produces a massive overestimate anyway but especially when you extrapolate this data longer than the 8 weeks as you have done. This is only one inaccuracy of a DXA scan. I think in terms of estimating how much can be gained, you're better off using anecdotal evidence from experienced coaches (still inaccurate) as we just don't have studies that have accurately measured this over a large enough sample size - especially when the equipment to measure body composition even somewhat accurately doesn't exist. You know from your own experience that you haven't coached many natural clients that will have packed on 35kg in a 4 year time period without a big chunk of that being fat. I can throw out figures but I have no actual way of knowing what can be gained, no one does. If I had to take a guess an lifter with 1 years experience would be looking at 3-5kg given they had been eating and training well in the year prior. Through your own experience rather than study interpretation, what would you realistically estimate?

Watch the video from renaissance periodization on newbie gains they’ll always be waiting for you.

@@zacbrach thanks man I’ll look into that, have a good day

Take the research, and the assumptions on top of it, with a pinch of salt. End of the day, just try and see what happens ha!

Take the data in this video with a small pinch of salt (studies not set up to measure muscle gain), then take my assumptions with a bigger pinch of salt.

eeh i'm just dissin ya ;) enjoy the holidays mate

I mean, if 2 of 56 people gained 7kg and 7.5kg respectively (actually given as "fat free and bone-free mass") in the study, what do you think would be possible assuming the best possible genetics and training/nutrition protocols? It must be more than 7.5 kg for sure (unless by chance that study included the person with the best genetics to ever live) - so the question is just how much more? Maybe 9.5kg is too much, but I'm talking about the absolute maximum anyone could ever achieve assuming the best genetics/training/nutrition/recovery etc.

That also assumes your rate of muscle gain doesn't decrease at all after that first drop for the entire 3 years. I accept, it's a lot. Which of the assumptions I made (on top of the actual data) do you disagree with? Happy to be wrong, just interested to see.

@@JoeDelaneyy as a natural you should expect to gain no more than 2lbs of muscle a month, them guys you said who gained 8kg in 12 weeks must be on gear lol

@@JoeDelaneyy I disagree with the statement that a lifter with 2 years of experience can gain 2.5 kg in 12 weeks. If you look at the study you referenced, the average bench press 1RM was roughly 80 kg. In other words, this study was practically done on newbies (even though they had 4 years of training experience).

what about bone, organs and water. Just alone, we hold around 6-7 kg of water in our system.

@@adelfhipster3936 60% of us is water. Lean body mass is your full weight minus the fat weight that you carry, and that is shown by your body fat percentage.

@@MrOrthodox13 I understand, there is no correct way of measuring body fat and lean mass in the body though.

@@adelfhipster3936 Not 100%, however, if everyone is doing the same test, and these individuals did, the results will be relative to each other, which we can use as a benchmark.

@@MrOrthodox13 perhaps, although Ive seen people with very differenf bodyfat levels taking the same test and getting results that vary by a big margin with no correlation to anything. I agree, its the best we've got so we find a way to work with it. I just don't trust these things.

Emphasis on 'ideal conditions' for sure.

The experience levels like 'beginner' 'intermediate' or even 'advanced' refer to how quickly you make those adaptations generally. If you have been training for 8 years (solid training) you'd most likely be an advanced lifter. However if you haven't taken it seriously and went to the gym on and off, you still might be considered a 'beginner' or an 'early intermediate'. Not saying you have done this though, it's just an example. All depends how quickly you make those gains and there's only one way to know, ensure your training, sleep, recovery and nutrition are on point and go on from there.

I started in July at 74 kg and now carry 80. Had premium training and good nutrition advice.

the 1kg in 8 weeks is an actual data point from the research quoted/linked.

Well because for one the difference in test from 18 to 30 is pretty much irrelevant and the 30 year old has trained for much longer.

It's called muscle memory. Basically if you had muscle before and lost it, you're going to gain it back much faster than it took to get originally.

5x5

Exactly

For sure, most people couldn't do it. The average for that study (in the best performing group - that drank milk) was around 4kg. They were beginners jumping straight onto pretty good training protocols also. I don't think I've ever gained even 4kg in 12 weeks (muscle)

Follow the program, the MindPump guys answered this question several times, I know that you want to do more, but if you want good results follow it. Perhaps do some mobility work and/or trigger sessions on the other days.

I think training 4 vs 3 times a week would make quite a difference. But it depends how long your workouts can be and how much volume you can squeeze into one workout. Even if you can train for a long time (like 1.5+ hours) each session, there is some research that points to an upper limit of sets per muscle group per workout (about 12) that are 'productive' (which is why people tend to advise against body part splits, because they exceed that). Either way 4 is better than 3. How much better depends on a lot of factors. It's so hard to really nail down and solid watertight statements when it comes to lifting/gaining muscle.

no we dont

No. Greg is a pleb

I actually did photoshop the 'before' pic on the left of the thumbnail to make myself look smaller. Just for the record. I know the other photoshop is obvious but would also like to make that clear haha

@@JoeDelaneyy the lines of the wall of the 'after' is all messed up though

@@clbogas It wasn't supposed to be a convincing photoshop haha