How much friction does rope access gear generate

Рет қаралды 14,008

Күн бұрын

Friction in rope access gear, like gravity, is one of those things we have to deal with in rope access all the time. It can help us and on the other hand hinder us. In rope access we sometimes actually want friction to help us. For instance when lowering or descending, we can use friction to control our speed through our descent control devices or descenders. But when we start lifting things, the less friction we have, the easier we can defeat gravity.
In this video we will explore friction in our various every day rope access devices. This will tell us where to put which device in our system.
19 tests done and one thing is clear.... Things are not as efficient as they seem AND we have one surprise winner!
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Chapters
0:00 Intro on Friction
0:22 Testing setup explained
1:53 Test 1 Steel Carabiner
3:58 Test 2 Aluminum Carabiner
4:38 Test 3 Small Skalt Pulley
5:28 Test 4 Cresto Pulley
6:23 Test 5 Petzl Mini Traxion
7:03 Test 6 Petzl Rollclip A
7:57 Test 7 Rock Exotica Omni Block 1.1
8:56 Test 8 Petzl Rescue
9:40 Test 9 Petzl Micro Traxion
10:15 Linescale LS3 Discount
10:47 Test 10 Petzl Pro Traxion
11:20 Test 11 Petzl I’D
12:12 Testing Considerations
13:33 Test 12 Climbing Technology Sparrow R
14:46 Test 13 Petzl Rig
15:42 Test 14 ISC D4
16:51 Test 15 Petzl I’D Evac
17:40 Test 16 Skylotec Sirius
18:26 Test 17 TAZ Lov2
19:19 Test 18 Petzl Maestro
20:09 Test 19 CMC/Harken Clutch
20:20 Concluding Thoughts

Пікірлер: 77

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Were the results what you expected? Did you see any surprises

@KristjanKalda89 Жыл бұрын

Haven't used the Taz Lov2, but I think it's similar to Petzl Grillion, which seem to have significantly less friction compared to rig/ID. Good job on the tests, looking forward to next ones!

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

@@KristjanKalda89 Good one! I could have tested that as well! But to be honest, I think the Grigri/Grillon will be in between the Taz and I'd. There is a lot more surface area where the rope rubs compared to the TAZ. Now if I would know the Capstan equation, I could calculate it for you, but that stuff just hurts my head 😉. I also have Safeguard by Mad Rock I could have tested... Well, that will have to be in a part two for later...

@paulnosek714 Жыл бұрын

Great video man, gets the brain thinking hahaha keep it up we appreciate it!

@DerAndroid478 Жыл бұрын

I have the ID, the Sirius and the LOV3 so i was actually expecting the LOV2/3 to be lower but i didnt expect that much of a difference. i think an interresting follow up would be Pulleys with a Prussik and maybe other friction hitches for capture.

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

@@DerAndroid478 I know right, complete surprise to me too. A prussik should add minimal friction if any compared to any inefficiencies in pulleys. Nevertheless something I'll add is a follow up video. Just to be sure.

@HowNOT2 Жыл бұрын

I watched the whole thing. The biggest shock to me was micro and protraxion being very similar. And it’s crazy how the progress captures have so much friction. This could be a fun video to build off to see what I get and then change just one variable here and there. Good video

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

That micro traxion is definitely a good one! I knew it was good but I had not thought they would be this close. I've been thinking about splaying with some variables. Like one device different ropes (10-11 mm) in different states (wet,oil,fuzzy, new), or same rope, same model device, just different devices. Like get 10 I'd's and see the difference in that. We can work of that👍🏻👍🏻

@andrewhunter6536 Жыл бұрын

I wonder how awful an atc guide would be. I guess any z drag with that in it is already basically only a 2:1 without calculating the other losses

@robertasjuscius1092 4 ай бұрын

As irtata L3 myself for 13 years I've been surprised by the test results. My go-to is Petzl pulley all the time :))). Thank you for great effort in explaining this in detail. We had many debates (during tea times) about these topics but no one had solid proof. Until now! Thank you for your great work and effort. And I can relate posting anything on internet about rigging triggers shit out of some people. Specialy on linkedinn. I can fee you. Have a good and creative upcoming season.

@TheRopeAccessChannel 3 ай бұрын

Thanks man, I appreciate that 🙏😀🙏😀

@alporridge5228 Жыл бұрын

As a relative newbie I hear all the time that the Clutch is so much more efficient than the Maestro…maybe not after all. Thanks for the content

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Just keep in mind that this was just on test with on model each. If we take useability into account, the Clutch is better I think. So many more tests and variables to do haha. Maybe 10.5 mm will lessen de efficiency gap.. who knows

@YannCamusBlissClimbing Жыл бұрын

Good video! Happy to see the LOV2 perform as it is the only big rappel / position / fall arrest device I own. I noted all the loads I can read in your video and did my own calculations a bit differently. But I am +/- 1% of your calculated efficiency. All good! Keep them coming 🙂

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thanks Yann 😃. I'm not trying to be very precise. So I round up or down quite a bit. At least we get an indication of what is going on👍🏻👍🏻

@spiercevaughn Жыл бұрын

Really cool test! loved seeing the differences through the gear. Great set up.

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it! Thanks Pierce🙏🏼

@basigalvez8926 Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much Alex for your dedication, this video is very interesting. Good job mate!!!!👏👏👏👏👏

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

My pleasure!😃😃

@GionetTodesco77 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video, thanks for sharing…

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

@danielsantiagojaramillogar2533 Жыл бұрын

Awesome video. Thank you.

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

My pleasure Daniel 👍🏻

@evertongatto8944 Жыл бұрын

Excellent job!

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

@thugnasty333 Жыл бұрын

Incredible episode. Keep the nerd videos coming!! Thank you

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

More to come!👍🏻👍🏻

@Bendersnatchling Жыл бұрын

Love the fact you take your time! Not everything can be explained well in 15s.

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thanks, that is exactly the idea. Short form content is for other platforms. KZfaq is for more thorough explored topics

@jetseverschuren Жыл бұрын

Haha, ik was letterlijk een week geleden aan het overwegen om een vergelijkbare test te doen. Goed om te zien dat je in beweging test, super lekker bezig!

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thanks Jetse🙏🏼👊🏻

@aerialrescuesolutions3277 Жыл бұрын

I did watch the whole video, I always watch your videos to the end. Jim

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thank you Jim😃

@levig-man4103 Жыл бұрын

Excellent content 👌

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thank you 🙌

@user-zg5wt4xd4x 5 ай бұрын

This is very cool video! I dreamed of seeing something similar. This is not the first time I’ve seen your great videos. Thank you from Ukraine

@TheRopeAccessChannel 5 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@rubencastro676 Жыл бұрын

Hello Alex 😁 My reaction was the same as yours , a thought that the clutch and the maestro was more efficient! I already try out the Taz lov2 and it's a strange device for people that are use to rig /ID but with a lot of advantages and certifications , the results was shocking to me , it's more efficient then others descenders ! Keep the good work and thank you for sharing this type of knowledge, it's like you said on the video , this tests helps is to understand the pros and cons of the devices and where to put then on the system ! The video about the z rig , it was very eye opening and you get me doing exercises on MA systems and compare the theoretical with the reality! Thank you Alex ☺️ 💪

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Aweome!! Thank you Ruben🙏🏼🙏🏼. If that is what is keeping you busy, in the next few weeks I will be releasing 4 more video's on friction and MA systems. Enough to keep you busy and thinking for a while haha👊🏻👊🏻

@satriatv165 Жыл бұрын

Good jobs sir

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thank you! Part 2 is coming today :-)

@josephr.3558 Жыл бұрын

Would love to see a zigzag on this test!

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

I think it will be about the same as an inefficient pulley. Ill put it on the list for the next time👍🏼👍🏼

@matthewmurr8199 Ай бұрын

Anyone know how many friction point the CMC clutch has ?

@paulosaraiva1002 11 ай бұрын

lol!so sorry for your mic...thank you for your work!

@TheRopeAccessChannel 10 ай бұрын

Thank you too!

@jennywhite1425 Жыл бұрын

G'day Alex - excellent video once again! I wasn't surprised by the results but it is really good to see you demonstrate them all. I own 2 Clutches for the very reason you have shown: quite low friction and can be used as a personal descender on my harness. Also, the discount code on the LS3 doesn't work on their website - it says 'code doesn't exist' - just thought you might like to know. Keep up the great work with your videos 👍

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Hi Jenny, thank you😃 That fact, that you can use the clutch as a descender and that is smaller, is why I would also take a Clutch over a Maestro. And thank you for letting me know about the code. That was my bad. I posted the old code, it changes every month. TRAC-61c-Tg3 is the new code. for a few more days until it changes in december again.

@bobert12390 Жыл бұрын

I would bet a huge video on the sklotec sirrus using like the I'd video would be a big hit I'm having trouble finding video on real testing and reviews of the sklotec sirrus

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Agreed! I am working on a big Spark video now. It will take some time though. A first impressions video is coming this week!!

@33samogo Жыл бұрын

It is not surface area that make difference in "friction", it is a Bending Angle (BA). With carabiner in your case, the rope BA is let's say 135 degree, with descender BA is ~45 more on the exit of device, so ~180 degree in total in your case (factor of 1,3, but the "friction" increase exponentially) . Another factor to consider is Rope Banding Radius (RBR) and Rope Diameter (RD). In the case of carabiner the rope RBR is 10mm on 10mm rope, so the the "friction" will be higher than in case of descender, where the RBR is ~25mm on the cam and ~15mm on exit of device. If the RD increase the internal rope friction increase to, that is why is so nice hauling with thinner ropers. Another thing that increase the "friction" is V shape groove in the cam of descender, this little engineering trick increase the force contact between rope and cam so the system "friction" increase. And at last, the friction is not constant in all conditions, so instead of "friction" is better to say holding and braking force. As you can see there is too many variables in physics of this devices, that is why is so difficult to make one that works perfect and impossible to make one that will satisfy all your needs. My five stars out of five for Micro Traction and for your presentation 👌

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Thanks, If I read that it looks like you know what you are talking about. you understand the physics. And for what I want to showcase, I like to keep it as simple as possible. Things like kN and kg I use both and if something slides across a surface and makes lifting harder or lowering easier I (and many others) just call it friction. In a practical world it doesnt really matter why that is for 99% of the techs out there. I'll stick with friction ;-).

@33samogo Жыл бұрын

@@TheRopeAccessChannel No problem, just know that Bending Angle is a key to understand the "friction" in practical world 😉

@GiannisPrimbo Жыл бұрын

petzl L1D ? im really curious about the efficiency of the pulley

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

If you send it over I will test it😜😜😜. Kidding.. I wish I could, and I do not have one. According to the specs is should be similar to the micro traxion.

@gustavoperez9289 Жыл бұрын

You started by connecting the pulleys to a fixed metal point... and then you switched to a textile point. Do you think that the results are not so precise due to this change? Or maybe it doesn't affect much.

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

I dont think it matters. It was only the two carabiners that were clipped directly and that 2x the friction was already a known. Once it is loaded and moving it was all consistent. I mean the winch doesnt need to pull harder or softer because it is in a sling. that just stretches a bit first untill fully loaded

@xxstreme 11 ай бұрын

hello.please add gri2 plus

@TheRopeAccessChannel 10 ай бұрын

That should be really close to the old grigri. I’ll make sure to put in the next batch of testing 👍🏼

@aerialrescuesolutions3277 Жыл бұрын

My Taz Lov 3 says 9.5 max rope diameter. I only use it for going straight up a rope, that is why I bought it. A larger diameter rope really drags through it.

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

From the top of my head that 9.5 is for EN892 rope and under the EN 15151 standard. I think it goes from 9.5 till 10.5, The LOV3 is good for 10-11 mm EN1891A as well

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Just went and looked it up. These are the numbers from the site: EN 12841 type A, B and C on ropes EN 1891 A from Ø 10 to 11 mm, EN 15151-1 on EN 1891 A ropes from Ø 10 to 11 mm and on EN 892 ropes from Ø 9.5 to 10.5 mm EN 341 type 2 class C on Cousin 1425 EN 1891 rope Ø 10.5 mm EN 358 (LOV3+) with its LOVROPE lanyard it fulfills the relevant requirements of EN 353.2 with the exception of automatic descent tracking. It can handle a lot of different standards and rope diameters ;-)

@aerialrescuesolutions3277 Жыл бұрын

@@TheRopeAccessChannel I am just telling you what is written right on mine. I have tried 11mm rope in it and it is really hard to get the rope to slide. 10.5 works perfectly. Thank you for another great video. Jim

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Gotcha, do you have something like a sample model? To my knowledge the 2 and 3 had all the standards and thicknesses stamped on it. Or maybe in North America they don't? Or maybe I should say outside of the EU... I'm not sure I think they have to right? put all the relevant standards on the devices?

@aerialrescuesolutions3277 Жыл бұрын

@@TheRopeAccessChannel I tried to send you an email, what is the best way to send a photo? Jim

@FalenAnjel2 Жыл бұрын

The diamiter of the sheave seems small for the red pully, normally to have a better effectiveness the sheave should be 8x the rope diameter used. 08:12 Well you just mentioned what I was saying after a few more mins of watching. XD

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

Haha thanks🙏🏼🙏🏼😃👊🏻

@MrAclaudel Жыл бұрын

Bottom line: the Maestro is best for rescues. Right?

@TheRopeAccessChannel Жыл бұрын

It depends...... (always the answer) If you are interested in the most efficient progress capture/descent control device, then yes. But as a functioning multi purpose unit, then I think the Clutch is better, more versatile. Ability to load the rope when connected, can be used as a descender, smaller footprint and I think it is lighter. The difference between te two is small and because they are usually at the end of a 5:1 or 3:1 that difference is smaller again. But for 1:1 efficiency, the Maestro is more efficient..

@alirice2647 11 ай бұрын

Great video, keep them coming! Just discovered your channel and the videos on calculating MA have been very informative for me. Surprising to see how efficient the TAZ LOV 2 was. You can make it more efficient by rigging it inline with a DMM revolver rig like in this linked video: kzfaq.infooActlNvi-L8 I know it wouldn't be a fair test in this case, but it's a cool trick to know!

@TheRopeAccessChannel 10 ай бұрын

Great idea👍🏼. Thanks for sharing