I love these business side discussions. Dean did one about the financial breakdown of touring and it blew my mind. Your last discussion on road managing was incredible. More like this!!

I think Dave just added the "lost" money from tickets, merch, etc. on offdays at his 45k statement and also exaggerated the total amount a little bit 😉. Thank you Tank for the insight.

We are in a very sad place for the music industry and the fans. If artist can't make money selling music and can't make money touring, what's left? I easily see a future where live music is limited to large festivals. It just unsustainable to expect bands to lose money or barely break even touring. It's really sad, especially given that I think we are in a resurgence for rock music. Long live rock!

I can't enough of these type of videos Tank so keep them coming. It's fascinating to see what bands go through to stay on the road. Last year Nightwish played here in Dublin Ireland for the first time in 15 years. For unknown reasons they had to leave the two support bands plus the two big video screens in the Uk where their previous show was. I'm guessing hotel costs were one factor since current prices and availability are nuts right now. The venue was not sold out but still very full compared to other acts I had seen there within weeks of the show. Its 13000 capacity and I would imagine they had 9000-10000 people there. Still not enough to pay the bills I guess. Amon Amarth and Machine head doubled headed a show there a few weeks before to a smaller audience. Amon didn't get to use the flame/pyro in their opening set as they had at shows in the UK. I guess that was to save a bit of money because Machine head used it in their set.

These videos are awesome, its things as fans of live music that we never see or have to think about and you can see what goes into a tour and what it costs for the band to play for you

Just to clarify and update a few things… The numbers I went over were specifically for a day off, and there were a few things you could add in if you wanted to. Per diem for an entire touring party on that specific tour could run between $500-$1,000 per day depending on what the organization pays. You could also throw in insurance if the band got more than liability insurance for traveling, but you’re looking less than $150 per day even for a million dollar full coverage policy. Also, to Dave‘s point about Show days being more expensive… While I brought up the day on/day off payment for the crew, there are also other things like labor, venue security, rider, and more expense stuff that will absolutely make a Show day more expensive for a band than a day off. Also, recent and current Megadeth tours SEEM like they’d be bigger than what was suggested from the interview. However, all of this was based off Dave saying they are currently traveling in 2 buses, and then guessing what else they're carrying after that. I’ve seen people say their last tour had 4 buses and 5 trucks. Could be. Also could be the entire touring party and not just Megadeth. Again, this wasn’t to prove anyone wrong, and expenses for bands will vary from band to band.

I love your informative videos like this! I’ve been in event coordination and planning for most of my life- primarily in sports, and now weddings and events so this kind of info is right up my alley. Whenever I attend any kind of large production, I’ve watching everything and everybody and thinking about how everything came together.

Love your channel bro, I have always been into the inner workings of bands and tours and you cover it well!

Love these videos where you explain stuff from the business side of the music industry. You're great at explaining it so that it's easy to understand both the overall system and details. All these videos that come from your insight as a roadie/tech/tour manager are great at showing us a side of the music industry that most fans don't know much about. Keep em coming!

Tank! Yet again, another great video of the breakdown of touring these days. Your methods are so easily understood and I’m always finding myself wanting more!! Keep it up brother!!

Could you do a video on the arrangement of how the money from these shows is split? Like does the promoter give the band a guarantee and the promoter keeps the money from the tickets? Or does the band pay to rent the venue and the band keeps the money from the tickets?

absolutely love your channel. I'm such a nerd when it comes to the economics of touring.

After watching tank the Tech how much it cost to rent a tour bus, I would believe $45,000 a day.

Old timer here reminiscing about "back in the day". I saw Van Halen in 1981 for $10.50. A HUGE "cup o' beer" was $5, and a tour shirt was $20. In those days, bands made money off of albums sales, and only toured to promote album sales. TODAY...bands make next to nothing off of album sales...nobody buys albums/CDs anymore, and streaming services pay shit. Bands now HAVE to tour to make money...hence the outrageous ticket prices, and Lois Vuitton prices for "made in Honduras" t-shirts. Promoters want their cut, and now charge up to 50% ticket price in "service fees". Those bands still signed to labels must give a percentage of merchandise sold at concerts to said label for promotion. Waiting outside an arena by the tour buses won't score you an autograph, but $300 for a "meet and greet" will. I STILL love concerts, but am more selective as to which ones I will part with my hard earned cash to see. Gone are the days of working a sucky job, and STILL being able to afford to see 2-3 top bands a month.

It's more that they're not MAKING a bunch of money, but yeah, a day's salary for your crew is a day's salary. I'm trying to feel sad on behalf of national touring acts who make more in a week than I make in a year, but somehow it just isn't happening.

I really fucking love how informative your channel is.

YAY IM EARLY FOR ONCE! I love how informative your videos are and it always makes me question how much bands actually really do lose on their off days.

Again - your info is incredible. Thank you so much.

man thank you so much for doing these videos. really. very informative and interesting stuff.

Bro , this is one of the most interresting channels i discovered in 2023 , keep up the great work❤

As someone who isn't a musician and doesn't know shit about the music industry 😅, these videos are awesome! Even though none of this will ever apply to my life, it is still fascinating getting some insight on this! Awesome content bro!🤘

Hey Tank, great vid. man, love your insight and your honesty. Thanks for putting it together!

I find these videos on the business of music fascinating. It certainly gives an insight

I'm a new subscriber, very cool channel! I love hearing the "behind the scenes" details, fascinating stuff. Keep up the great work!

Thanks for talking about our interview man, love your channel! 🤘🏻⚡️🔥

Bearing in mind that everything has its cost, even in our own lives it has a cost, I take the example of a car, as a professional manager I have in mind that my car, even though it is parked in the garage, is costing me money , even if you have already paid for it in full, it costs money, the cost of each maintenance, the tyres, the small repairs that appear due to wear and tear, taxes and of course the fuel. As of now, I don't have any knowledge regarding tours, but in the field I work in (in the field of manufacturing cutting machines and robotic welding) I know what it's like to have to deal with all kinds of expenses that are inherent to production . These are overwhelming numbers. Ten years ago the cost was quite low for the standard of living we enjoy, but today to do the same the cost is ten times more than ten years ago. Nice video and keep up the good work!

Great Job TANK!

Well done. Loving the channel.

I don't know see how smaller bands make any money. Even an old, used rental tour bus is like 40k a month. Even only 1-4 semi trucks are very expensive. I've heard venues are taking part of the merch money now too. If you're only playing infront of 500-2000 people I don't see how this is profitable unless you could somehow play 30 shows a month.

I’m a new subscriber but just wanted to say … WOW Awesome stuff! really enjoy your show man! 🤘🏻

That stuff with Live Nation that you hinted towards... I would definitely like to know more about that.

good stuff man! another thought i had that is probably obvious is that prices could be higher for transportation because of the "revenge travel" phenomenon. People going on those trips they've always wanted to after being cooped up during covid...it's caused a surge in travel-related costs for sure. Safe travels on tour with EC!

Great video new subscriber. I agree with the assessment. Gas hotel food is outrageous. Another reason ticket prices are sky-high. I've been a bass player since early eighties. A buddy of mine since then Gary C has been a production manager for alot of bands touring. Last time I saw him he was Jason Bonham's production manager among others like Godsmack. Anyway he kinda opened my eyes to how much it costs to tour. Really enjoy the channel.

The bus discussion alone perked my ears up because the estimates of buses have huge differences considering how many luxuries and efficiencies each tour bus can have, with only big name bands getting able to get to the point of affording tour bus rentals. I'll never know each specific band's tour costs but the actual touring part of tour is what can destroy a band financially.

Great video as always! I am promoting a couple of shows a year here in Austria - club between 100 and 500 capacity - and while budget and finance can be frustrating, it is a very big part of the business of course. I am not doing this professionally, i.e. not making a living off it, but just for fun and it was eye opening at the beginning how much money goes into a show or even a whole tour. Thank you for sharing this so transparent and sharing your thoughts. From my experience, I would say 45-50k guarantee for Megadeth sounds about right. So maybe Dave really was talking about "losing" money when not playing and not the expenses. Very interesting video nonetheless! Much love from Austria! 🤘

Love your channel man.

Thanks Tank this was very informative video. A close friend of mine works with the band cheap trick and has for a very long time. Having seen how they take care of the crew is awesome and probably very expensive and then just everything else has to be a bundle. Take Care Brother

Always wondered about this aspect of the business. No BS just straight facts. Very well done. Thanks.

Interesting take. I work in entertainment and learning how much goes into this is crazy!!

Just found you. Great video. Would love to see a video about large promoters. Again great video.

Dang even the number you calculated was pretty wild. I feel like the $45k must be including what they would have made for a show. I find this stuff really interesting, and I knew nothing about any of this, before finding your channel!

Thanks for posting this, my estimate was 100k a month but I forgot some of the things you mentioned. I think the thing you missed, was paying the band, lighting guy, sound guy and the rest of the crew on their time off, assuming they get paid a salary.

He was including the band salary. Insurance wasn't mentioned. Consumables, such as food and drinks for the crew aka catering.

I find all this very interesting. I have at 47 rotations around the sun, just been thrown into this world of touring for the first time and while on the very low end (relatively) am experiencing these same issues. We started with an RV and several crew members and 3 months in, have whittled it down to the band members and the Tour Manager/FOH/driver in a Ford Transit van and I have taken on the role of Monitor guy for all of us. Everyone is pitching in with load in, setup and tear down and a few of us are even driving. I'm just happy to be doing it.

Surprised we havent seen you react to band maid - sense, one of there more recent songs and its a banger as always!

Cool video and thanks for doing this. To clarify, I have done Merch for Megadeth and they do more than that amount in just Merch so I don't think he was referring to income lost

I actually thought the sound/light rental fees sounded a bit on the low side. There's also other costs to account for: Insurance, accountancy, carnets, visas, flights, pre-production (set design/build, sound / light programming etc), rehearsal costs etc. Add those into the mix, and divide those costs by the number of days you are on the road, then Dave's estimation becomes highly believable. I wonder what Rammstein's daily cost is on their current tour?

Great content man. This is good info. Sadly, I think the future of music performance is sites like Twitch. Financially, tours don’t make much sense anymore.

Good discussion, also means many stops are now not feasible. I live in Adelaide (The Capital of South Australia), which now gets almost 0 music festivals with international acts. As a result a trip to a bigger city for me including ticket prices, airfares and accommodation is at a minimum of $1000 AU which is what I spent just to get to Knotfest. A great set by Megadeath. We get smaller individual side shows but the festivals are gone. Then when shows like Electric Callboy do come to Adelaide they are sold out in minutes (Tank are you coming to AU leg of that).

Cool channel man!

Tank, love the videos, I am the TM for Megadeth, and costs are arguably really high, post pandemic, it was a lot harder to source gear that would have usually been standard to find, there were premiums and cross rentals on all that... but yes so expensive to keep the machine rolling these days!

Interesting video. Wish I could join you and Electric Callboy in Montréal in the fall, but the show pretty much immediately sold out and I refuse to give a scalper my money.

Years and years ago,Mick Jagger said when they went on tour it took 3 months to get to the break even point .

hey thats my bus in the pic 😎 also, I was out with Mega on their last tour a few weeks ago, and it was three buses. and four trucks.

@TankTheTech I found your channel not long ago and have been loving all of the content. Thank you! Out of curiosity, what mic are you using?

So, based on this information and all the videos you’ve done, is it worth it in this day and age to tour?! It’s rough to see the amount of money lost and spent. You’ve been one of the best channels to watch regarding to this type of thing. Thank you dude 🤘🏻🤘🏻

Yeah, when I heard those figures my first thought also was it must include the guarantee they’re missing out on whenever they don’t have a show day

To the normal person, just adding up the expenses would be the cost. The Econ major in me would say, but opportunity cost to any economist/accountant is huge. It’s how we project the profitability of a venture ahead of time. I’m glad you mentioned it at the end. Honestly, that number Dave gave sounded low to me at first glance because I assumed opportunity cost 😂. If their expenses are 15-20k a day I’d sure as shit hope they make 25k-30k a night. Otherwise, it’s not really a profitable venture. When you add cost + opportunity cost, Dave’s number seems fair if not a little low.

I'm understanding things more than I did before, although I can't claim to understand completely what it's like for bands to tour. Last year when I saw Nightwish for the first time (in Colorado) I was not expecting a show the size of Wakken, but I do admit to feeling taken aback when they had a barebones stage setup not much more than a bar band or a mid-tier festival band playing at noon on the Friday of a 3-day weekend festival. Literally just them, their instruments and basic stage setup, and a few lights. I had looked forward to seeing the video screen behind them, and they didn't bring it. The lights, by the way, were gorgeous! They rocked the house with that infectious Nightwish energy and enthusiasm that I love so much about them. Now that I understand how prices have risen so much, and the fact that they were coming off 2 years of very little incoming revenue for anything (because of the lockdown), I have a better understanding of the show they brought us. The tickets for this show were only $65. I would have paid more to see them! But I think that as they tried to navigate the new landscape that touring became post pandemic, they brought us the best they could. All of that "icing on to of the cake" would have been nice to see, but they bright us the most important component. Themselves. And, in light of this announcement that they're on indefinite hiatus from touring, I am so glad they came to see us (or, let us see them, I guess 😊) This is the only concert I've been to in the last 5-6 years, so I have no other frame of reference to discuss within this topic. Thanks, Tank, for breaking it all down for us!

Good stuff man..

Dean Lamb has a great video about the cost of thier tour. He brakes it down pretty good.

Nice break down

Can you do a video on smaller bands like a mid level punk band. Metal bands and their stage setups are sometimes extravagant and seeing videos like this, no matter how interesting it is, makes it a bit discouraging for smaller bands. Van rental, gas, own equipment, a hotel once in a while (a planet fitness membership for showers is key as well), merch person and a roadie who worker for jagermeister and McChickens. That's reality for most touring punk bands..

Great vid cheers, I was also aghast when Dave mentioned that figure. One question I've always wondered about Touring is how mega bands, like Metallica with 72 Seasons, can book 2 years worth of concerts in advance and still keep that from leaking?

Very informative Tank. It's all supply and demand. Economics 101

I love hearing about the business side of music. Keep it up! But all these costs still do not justify the extra fees by Ticketmaster and Live Nation. I have seen so many shows in my life that I could have purchase two large dream homes by now with all these fees.

I mean can we cut Dave a break? He was speaking extemporaneously during an interview. Just the fact that he is aware of the costs of doing a tour is commendable. He is in my mind al savvy and intelligent band leader. Quit nitpicking him.

Tank, I love these videos, I have always wondered about the business side of metal. I have a question semi-related, I remember back in the mid 2000's hearing from touring bands that to get on say a festival like Ozzfest, second stage bands had to pay $100,000. Perhaps you have already addressed this in a video but is bands paying just to be on a tour the standard? what's the deal with this?

Thanks!

I was just at a Megadeth show in Canada. I was working with their Playback tech whose also running monitors and lyrics at the same time. I don't think they are running with a huge crew of techs. Maybe the fuel costs a boatload because Canada is huge and everything is spaced out lol. For some parts they likely flew the band members. They are running a bunch of Neurals for all their guitars. They did have one guy who they were flying in/out on the team (production manager/tour manager) but most were staying there. They put on a great show and I appreciate they were in smaller places in Canada that most bands don't know exist.

First ;) Another awesome video from Tank!

Hopefully we get to link on the Electric Callboy tour 🔥

Watching this video on my phone..for the first minute I kept trying to clean a smudge on the bottom/middle of my screen only to realize it was your mic...

Tours are complicated, has to be really tuff for newer up coming bands u could go broke! touring times are hard and difficult. Great Subject Tank thanks.👍👋🎶🎸🍺

Good stuff! Would love to hear how the relationship with the venues work. Arw the artists renting the venue, paying a set rate? Is there a sharing percentage of ticket revenue? Merch? If Dave is selling 3,000 seats at an average of $50, that's 150k gross, so, I'd guess the 'losing' 45k on an off day is purely expenses related to being on the road and not lost revenue?

I would honestly like to see how expensive a Rammstein show or Taylor Swifts new tour costs.

Some of those equipment rental numbers seem low but I am guessing the they are doing a production rental with multi week breaks figured in.

I'm wanting to put together a band some time this year. Maybe. I love playing shows and really want to tour. How do you get on a tour as an opener? Do you send out info to management companies?

So how do festival slots work? Im not sure if you mentioned that in your tour manager video or here. Here you've put them into expenses. Is it like bands just buying in? E.g. Sabaton getting to a festival, knowing what kinds of crowds they pull, buying the most expensive one which then is the main stage on prime time in the middle of a weekend or something? Do they sell that out immediatly and if then the Amon Amarth manager gets there they say 'sorry, biggest thing is sold out already' and they have to make a decision about if the next best thing is good enough? Are band interests collected and then auctioned or something? Or is it even based on popularity, cause the festival managers know the crowd a band draws in too, and they too benefit from it after all.

It depends on the venue etc. Madison Square garden is around $400,000 (pre pandemic) just to switch on the lights......

One big thing I didn't see taken into account is the tour manager and band manager cuts of everything. Plus mech table staff. Air fares is the band is traveling farther, Salaries of the people inbt he band were mentioned but not quantified. Plus bigger bands may also have a personal chef, or health consultant. Wardrobe staff. And quite frankly, I think those hotel esitates are super low.

While it's still far off what Dave said, it's still enough to make you realise why bands like Spiritbox still have day jobs when they're not touring.. These costs are mindbogglingly expensive. I don't know how there's any room for a band to make money after the label and managers get their cuts after all the expenses are covered.

Being in a touring band in the early ‘80’s, we were a support group, we got paid a flat rate weekly by our label, $500 per week, per man if we were on the road. And they kept us on the road a lot back then. 5 band and a driver in 1 bus, and a 20ft box truck for our backline. No lighting, or p.a., as that was provided by the headliner. If we had to spend more than 2 days waiting in say, Oklahoma City for a tour to hook onto, we’d book our own club dates. The band also received 3-5 thousand $ per show from the label, and each roadie (2), the band, (5), and driver (1) got $50 per diem. Back then we were responsible for the truck rental, and brought our own backline and instruments. The show that got us signed was our self-promoted show, headlining @ the L.B. Arena, and I remember renting 1 stack for backup, Tycobrahe for sound, and a lighting company. That 1 show on Valentine’s Day, in 1980, minus $300 for our 3 roadies, and no band salary, came in around $35,000. We paid a local band $500 for opening, and the Don Harrison band $3,000 for the second bill. It was $12,500 for the arena half house on a Sunday night. We got screwed in several places, but gained it back in others. You didn’t mention having to hire 6 Union stagehands, and having to feed them, too. I also didn’t add the $2,000 we paid to have our set videotaped, either. But we still got a big payday a couple of weeks later, getting signed after the gig, and being a stupid front load contract, they blew the other 2 offers away. Looking back, that gig more than paid for itself. We were on 2 labels, made 3 masters, all of which were rejected. We were a tax loss for the labels, and they made some $ by putting us on tours. Which is why we played so much on the road. I know times have changed, and knowing Mustaine, I’m sure he follows every penny spent for years. I’ll also wager he knows every trick to keep costs down, too. One thing he’s never been, was intellectually stupid. He made stupid decisions because of drinking, but he’s an astute guy. He’d probably teach you a few things, kid. 😁 thanks for the video, it was fun to reminisce. 👍

I mean if you add the venue cuts to expenses it of course increases on show days. He didn't mention the earnings on show days.

Its tough hearing people say they are losing money. If they are actually experiencing net business loss, its an entirely different story. I don't care what the expenses are until we know what the net business profit per show is & how much do the operating costs on off-days eat into that profit. I like how towards the end of the video you started to break this part down briefly.

I was under the impression that alot of shows rely on location sourced equipment like sound, lights and additional power, etc etc..And that equipment is leased locally

Thank you

Im union IATSE426 when Mega Death was here they had 3-4 busses and a more semi trucks than busses. They had a large Meyers PA with them. I know that had to be additional cost for sure.

Great video, hate that electric callboy isn't stopping in Nashville

I haven’t had a chance to watch the video yet and I plan to later after my shift is over. As an owner operator truck driver who runs team with my wife, we loose about $2,400 revenue, give or take some for every day we take off. That is just one truck.

In the German corporate event scene a technician usually gets half his daily claim on days off. E.g. he gets 250€ on an off day if he charges 500€ a day

Man o' man!! Festivals and concert halls or theatres, maybe convention-centers or hotels are the only top of the market I can see coming back in. Any band tour with an opener is dead model for touring for this year at least. We can't even model the population survivors, and the survivors of competent teams in all of these industries.

Also, megadeth has their own label called tradecraft which runs under the universal umbrella. Megadeth eats all their own costs, and they also (im not sure if they still do) have their own festival and cruise tour.

I do love the business discussions, in part because I use to do this many years ago, and it's shocking to see just how freaking cheap it is to rent audio and lighting now. Shocking really. I think Dave's comment makes sense if you consider "show income" versus a no income day. Perhaps the band is grossing 70k per show, and their net is 45k. If they don't work, it "costs" them 45k a day to be doing nothing. Lost potential, rather than lost actual. I can say from old experience that days off are often required on tours, especially if the shows are intense or the distances between venues gets too long. Few bands can perform 7 shows a week, most of them will squeeze 4 or 5 unless they are playing multiple nights in the same venue. Smaller bands doing the 1000 attendance or less tours are often doing it without their own sound and lighting package, and they may well play more shows. But once you start hauling your own gear and have to get the entire thing dragged in, set up, do the show, tear it down, load it out, and drive... it's hard to do more than 4 to 5 shows a week.

My friends band took out two Prevosts and all the expenses including driver fees and fuel was $4300 per day

One thing that people need to know... these estimates you are talking about are based on weekly or monthly rentals that are then divided down into per day for the sake of an average. A weekly or monthly rate is (usually) going to have discounts and not solely figured as a per day price in the actual estimates and invoices. If anyone tries to get a couple of consoles, mic package, cable package, etc.... for one lone day, it's going to be far more than 416.00... and probably an RF package of mics and ears would need to be in that too. Or else a wedge package. And that could include side fills and a drum monitor package. So... before anyone calls anywhere expecting to get all of that for 416.00 for a single day... It's not happening. Add a zero to that.

I was thinking he meant lost revenue for day off as well, but that makes very little sense when he continues to say it's more on a show day. Because while you do spend more on special effects, there should be more revenue. Off topic, one band I see you haven't reacted to which is actually quite big and often featured in the same festivals that feature Saltatio Mortis, Feuerschwanz, etc. is Scottish Pirate Metal band Alestorm.

Can we get a video how much bands(small medium or big) can make net abd gross. Csuse this is crazy even at 15k

where I'm from , Depending who people cater for, I have seen pricing gets changed by a ridiculous amount.

I enjoy your videos on the business side of the industry. What $ could Megadeth be pulling down per show? I know it varies somewhat by city/ festival, but any idea?