How Much Progress Can TH12 Do in 150 DAYS in Clash of Clans?
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4 ай бұрынHow Much Progress Can Be Made at TH12 Free 2 Play in Clash of Clans? Kenny Jo reveals the TH12 Upgrade progress 150 days after the TH12 Upgrade Priority 2023 Guide. Clash with Jo walks through the building upgrades since the 5th episode and includes laboratory progress and discusses the NEW Hero Equipment feature since the Town Hall 16 update in December of 2023.
★ Suggested Video:
New TH12 Upgrade Guide! How to Start in 2023
• New TH12 Upgrade Guide...
New Hero Equipment Explained!
• New Hero Equipment Exp...
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link.clashofclans.com/en?acti...
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★ My Clash of Clans Playlists
Town Hall 12 F2P Series (2023): bit.ly/TH12F2P2023
Town Hall 11 F2P Series (2023): bit.ly/TH11F2P2023
Level 1 Rushed Base Series (2022): bit.ly/Level1RushedBaseFix
Town Hall 14 F2P Series (2022): bit.ly/TH14F2PSeries
Town Hall 13 F2P Series (2021): bit.ly/TH13F2PSeries
Town Hall 10 F2P Series (2021): bit.ly/TH10in2021Series
Town Hall 9 F2P Series (2021): bit.ly/TH9in2021
Town Hall 12 F2P Series (2021): bit.ly/TH12F2PSeries
Town Hall 11 F2P Series (2020): bit.ly/38xhPBh
Town Hall 10 F2P Series (2020): bit.ly/31zZMXV
Town Hall 9 F2P Series (2020): bit.ly/2y3ofb7
Town Hall 8 F2P Series (2019): bit.ly/3c2coZJ
Town Hall 7 F2P Series (2019): bit.ly/3c1ozG5
Rushed Base Series (2020): bit.ly/RushThatBaseSeries
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@KennyJoGaming 4 ай бұрын
Happy Holidays everyone! What do you think about Hero Equipment so far? Even though they are a cool concept, I must admit I have mixed feelings about the new system.
@Ramana_G 4 ай бұрын
Hi Jo the equipment is coming again in future?
@KennyJoGaming 4 ай бұрын
@@Ramana_GI’ve heard the Epic Equipment will come back around in the trader for gems but nothing is fully confirmed from what I’ve seen.
@Ramana_G 4 ай бұрын
Thanks for reply
@DR...951 4 ай бұрын
@@KennyJoGamingI'm using vampstache and gauntlet and somehow I'm getting suspicious about my king is not dying when in ability after testing and looking my previous attack it even survive a FULL OR MAX SINGLE INFERNO ATTACK AND THE HEALTH DIDN'T EVEN MOVE
@kwabenaanokye 4 ай бұрын
Jo equipment is very good especially giant gauntlet
@titanrex0513 4 ай бұрын
I think that ores should be purchasable with raid medals
@ImJimik 4 ай бұрын
Very much agree
@kwabenaanokye 4 ай бұрын
Me too
@elnewbie2611 4 ай бұрын
Especially shiny ones because they require the most amount of ores per every level, I'm having problems with shiny and not glowy ones.
@Pain46790 4 ай бұрын
Probably gunna happen soon
@titanrex0513 4 ай бұрын
@@Pain46790 hopefully
@alexj.1286 4 ай бұрын
My opinion is that, I wish the default ability is upgradable using traditional way of upgrading the heroes using de and the new equipment is using the ores. Not all player are heavily invested in this game and not all clans are active in clan war.
@aqua0187 4 ай бұрын
👏👏.....I have the same opinion from the beginning
@bananamonke630 4 ай бұрын
yep same
@Random76544 4 ай бұрын
I think new ones are strong but they start from lv1 so its better mqke default ones 11 to 15 (max for th12) then focus on other things because if reach th13 still need blacsmith 7 and it is in th14 so 15 is max for th12 and 13 also they could nerf new things then you have lower default ones and low nerfed ones instead of every default equipment maxed
@aaliyan22 4 ай бұрын
I started 7 days after your first upload of this series and I have everything maxed except Mortars and Canons. Edit: I haven't spent a penny on the game. I had been saving league shop medals for th12 and higher. This made things much faster.
@jokerpro3038 4 ай бұрын
A building takes like 5 days to upgrade, how is it possible to have everything maxed😮
@simplevideosenthusiast7864 4 ай бұрын
@@jokerpro3038 There's something called "money"
@kevincuellar5726 4 ай бұрын
@@jokerpro3038dude had to have dropped crazy amounts of money lol
@TC-uh2xf 4 ай бұрын
either maxed for his TH maybe@@jokerpro3038
@mosesslai 4 ай бұрын
@@jokerpro30385 days comparatively is quite short, th12 with the new th16 time reductions th12 is quite quick now
@dragonchild1082 4 ай бұрын
For the gear, I would say focus on what you know won’t be nerf (the old gear) like the eternal tome and invisible potion
@captain_snowfall2245 4 ай бұрын
yeah your right also currently the best equipment is etarnal tone cuz 9 sec no damage is too good 2nd best it giant gaunlet
@suvigyakhare4303 4 ай бұрын
its a much better change imo, i would delay the hero upgrades a lot and would end up with high trophies but low hero levels. with this change i am able to participate in clan wars more often and the upgrading has become more of a passive task than an active one. im okay with delaying the upgrades as getting to level 11-12 provides a ton of value and is also fairly easy. every war almost guarantees 1 upgrade at the least so 2-3 levels a week isnt that bad initially. after leve 18 it is basically an endgame item which can be grinded out as you play along and hopefully they will add ores in raid shop to boost progression
@Moshiur_Rahman 4 ай бұрын
I upgraded to th12 as f2p like half a month before you, I maxed a week ago. Started upgrade to th13 so that it finishes exactly on 2024 😃
@lucaborioni99310 4 ай бұрын
Honestly my biggest concern rn is not being able to play heroes while upgrading, and even worse since i have them upgrading i can't partecipate in cw and therefore get materials.... they need to change heros upgrade somehow
@mungus42069 4 ай бұрын
Honestly, i think supercell should just let us use heroes whilst upgrading. Atleast in wars or cwl
@Jose-or3hq 4 ай бұрын
@@mungus42069 true, this is the only thing for me from stoping me from practicing proper teams in this game, not just playing sneakys all the time 😂
@PeacekeeperGaming7 4 ай бұрын
ready for th13 hope you and faby had a great christmas
@raducodreanu2309 4 ай бұрын
Adding to your point, I've seen some youtubers test equipment, and honestly because of how hard it is to obtain the resources required, it seems that (for higher th levels that already have high level equipment), it should make most sense to just max out the default equipment first.
@Random76544 4 ай бұрын
Yeah and if they nerf new ones it would be still good thing
@clashofclans_24 4 ай бұрын
Ores should be done available through raid medals making them more useful as of now 😊
@latoiban9284 4 ай бұрын
They should increase the maximum of raid medal to 10k, 5k can be blown up right away.
@aimietolcidas5571 Ай бұрын
They do now
@alternative-world 4 ай бұрын
I'm really excited for the th13 f2p series as I'm getting to the th13 the next week 😊
@princerajawat9585 4 ай бұрын
Omg joe what a timing I literally started my upgrade to th12 :)
@divyadivya8440 4 ай бұрын
One Question Jo , How did you spend your cookie medals On this account ?
@jaranaay3706 4 ай бұрын
Same question for me
@jakemullet9258 4 ай бұрын
So I started a new th 8 when the update came out, if you are a new player and starting with the black smith fresh it comes naturally from playing being even with everything else resource wise
@cowonafarmstrategy3449 4 ай бұрын
I think it's more likely they introduce better equipment in the future instead of nerfing equipment. It's essentially the same result though
@surge8307 4 ай бұрын
4:23 That's exactly how we feel with elite upgrades in clash roayle... It takes forever as a f2p or even as a pass player without a maxed account to get a seingle elite upgrade... and then the card could get nerfed
@jonathan_420 4 ай бұрын
Supercell is making both of these games more and more pay to win every time. It’s awful if you’re a f2p
@surge8307 4 ай бұрын
@@jonathan_420 ong I started playing brawl stars and they introduced 2 tiers of pass as well but they provide a lotta value. They haven't gone the p2w route there yet. Hoping it'll be healthy for a long time because I enjoy the game...
@randall517 4 ай бұрын
You just have to war now which I love. We even started another clan just for warring without heros. Ive already got the gauntlet to lvl 17 and a few of the other new equipment above lvl 10. Gonna be super hard for the casual player who never wars though. There needs to be another way to get ores without spending money. Would be nice if you could buy em with raid medals.
@rruhland 4 ай бұрын
It’s a lot of extra stuff to upgrade all at once. It’d be interesting to see how it works for someone coming up after this update.
@mikeyg6631 4 ай бұрын
Been on free to play and have been on th11 since end of September. Happy New Year's everyone ✨️
@shamsadtp7678 4 ай бұрын
Really useful content&, thank you for the free scenery 💫
@gredsz 4 ай бұрын
what free scenary
@Jose-Luis.Garnica-Sanchez 4 ай бұрын
They should allow you have ore bonuses from builder base attacks and clan capital attacks as well as troop events
@darianlee 4 ай бұрын
4:00 the apprentice warden gives more boost to high hp troops
@user-ev5rk1ld5z 4 ай бұрын
If you use the giant gauntlet ability right when the grand wardens eternal tome is going to go away it refreshes it’s invincibility timer so you can double the timer
@Dragon99790 4 ай бұрын
Take this down, gatekeep that stuff my man
@bolillo7016 4 ай бұрын
Love your videos! Greetings from México!!!
@chandraguptvikaramadityadu218 4 ай бұрын
ok so yeah I was wondering th12 f2p series you said builders should always be on heroes is this still valid even after hero equipment. should I lower this on my priority list now?
@samxsolos 4 ай бұрын
Thanks for this guide, My th11 will be th12 in 2d. Thanks 👍🏻
@princerajawat9585 4 ай бұрын
3 days for me
@KermitCzLP 4 ай бұрын
I missed out on the kings glove. Will there be an opportunity to get it?
@BonesBones-qx9jd 4 ай бұрын
I don't spend money, became th12 in September, now I'm like 85% something max, probably max out on January or early February.
@Ramana_G 4 ай бұрын
Hi the hero equipment is coming again in future?
@ethanmckibbin 4 ай бұрын
I started upgrading the rage gem on my TH12 account but then saw a bunch of people say on Reddit it's not good for using with dragons which is my go-to. I'm now wondering who to believe and if I just wasted a bunch of ore on something that's not actually helping me.
@an-unknownmonster6560 4 ай бұрын
The entire concept of the Hero equipment is really very good ,but the process of upgrading or maxing it gives a P2w vibe,i hope supercell really does something so this doesnt be something that is more difficult than upgrading hero already is
@Darian___ 4 ай бұрын
I don't really get a P2w vibe from it and the ores give a reason to participate in wars
@BonesBones-qx9jd 4 ай бұрын
@@Darian___you can gem any ores on weekly deals ( that trade thing on the side of the base ) so definitely the first P2w thing of COC. It's weekly but still can be bought .
@austinpowers1061 4 ай бұрын
Its not really P2W considering how extremely easy the ores are to get. Once you push up to a high league and participate in war, you can fully max out a piece of equipment common equipment (from level 1 to 18) in only a single month. Something like that was unthinkable before, as to get max hero abilities you would have to level ur heroes to max, which would take literal years sometimes xD
@Darian___ 4 ай бұрын
@@BonesBones-qx9jd brother you can gem everything in this game. By your logic this game is p2w which it obviously isn't.
@BonesBones-qx9jd 4 ай бұрын
@@Darian___ I'm talking about the ORES, it shouldn't be bought by gems that's p2w. Gems should only make coc faster gold pass, skins, instant finish buildings etc.... but not the ORES
@cluelessmango768 4 ай бұрын
I think that investing in the Giant Gauntlet at this time may not be worth it because: (1) it is by far the most expensive equipment to max. You’d get more immediate effectiveness maxing out the common equipments on your other heroes, and (2) it’s new, and strong, and as a result a potential nerf target. I would rather invest in some of the common equipments that have proven themselves useful like the Rage Vial, Eternal Tome, and Invisibility Vial. They have been around for so long, it’s unlikely they’ll receive a nerf now. Though Eternal Tome maybe sometime in the future could see a nerf. I’d imagine if Eternal Tome remains so strong that it prevents use of the other equipments, it might get a nerf to allow the other equipments to shine more. However it’s just as likely that the other equipments get a buff to fall in line with Eternal Tome-levels of usefullness
@arunananth6319 4 ай бұрын
I started after your 90 days progress now I maxed all my walls thanks to hammer jam..
@Nemesisprimee 4 ай бұрын
Guys Is there any other ways to get giant gauntlet?? Apart from buying frm the event
@iCE-yr3wy 4 ай бұрын
I like it because lower level heroes are better so they can be used more effectively in clan wars vs before
@stefluyten712 4 ай бұрын
i think upgrading hero equipment just feels grindy because you have to catch up a lot. As a th14, its really frustrating that you just have to choose which new equipment to max out first. Maybe if you can start doing it once youre th8 it will feel less grindy and natural
@nothingbutvoid 4 ай бұрын
imo the invis vial + healer puppet combo for the queen seems like a bad idea since the defenses would just retarget to the healers because the queen goes invisible. But also i think maybe its good because the queen's dmg output when invisible is very high and she could take out the defenses before the healers would die. Thats just me
@gamingtime9716 4 ай бұрын
If you're doing queen walk, the queen will already have healers on her so any issues with retargeting when she goes invis are already present. Archer puppet doesn't help much with absorbing damage because they're just too frail. They'll get taken out by a single mortar shot. If there was something like a Giant/Golem puppet, that may be useful. But the healer puppet gives the archer queen a nice second wind when doing a walk.
@gmc3115 4 ай бұрын
Love the vid Jo
@ShivamPatel-eb7qh 9 күн бұрын
Hey i am mid of th12 can i go to rush on th 16 ? Also new building take huge time so just farm & update how much time it cost???
@fforker64 4 ай бұрын
I wish I would have just saved my ore for th 13 and my royal champion. I would have the old abilities for my heros and been able to just play catch up with her and get her two abilities maxed.
@johnlouiesgesite3671 4 ай бұрын
Hey sir new subscriber here. Can you make a updated priority base for BH9 Rushed? I'm also currently at TH12 and I'm following your priority base
@ChessCom-wp1zv 4 ай бұрын
I'm in dilemma 😫 which hero ability upgrade to focus on 😢I mean to say whose ability to priorities and which one I am Town Hall 15 and my heroes are not max ;plz help
@AquaticApex 4 ай бұрын
I'm a Th12 with 2 months to go according to Clash Ninja. I am not F2P though....so I might max quicker.
@ConClasher3 4 ай бұрын
Late to this but Jo if you see this please don't waste ore on common equipment we already know a queen epic equipment is coming out with a slow effect to her attacks which is busted so imo the best way to approach equipment is to uograde them as little as possible besides the new epic to lvl 15 (to make it viable but still cheap to get there) then save ore as much as possible
@dragonchild1082 4 ай бұрын
Got less then a month before th13 so going buy the gold pass next month get me there faster to catch up
@blueninja1738 4 ай бұрын
Every 5 hero levels the player should be rewarded with ores, it would give an extra incentive for players to continue grinding hero levels.
@denchick007 4 ай бұрын
Supercell fixed problem of "necessity of full levelled heros in cwl" and of "dead clan wars". Making hero available while upgrading not really good solution, because they can defend your village (cc can defend while upgrading, but it's unique, and need to request troops from clan). Because of that, they changed hero potion and introduced equipments. Hero potion lasts only 1 hour and can be used only in attack. (I'll just remind you, the shield lasts ~12 hours, and you still being attacked) Equipments have a greater effect on abilities that are not used in defense. Also equipments revived clan wars which were dead last time. Now to play cwl you don't need to farm dark elixir and wait for months, but need to play cw. (which is pretty correct, I think, because cwl is an improved version of the cw) P.S. I'm don't know English very well, used Google translate.
@gmoneyplays1687 4 ай бұрын
Just reached th13 today! Got to grind heroes again 😂😅
@LEOFADS 4 ай бұрын
Jo your hard work deserve more views
@TrentSLucas 4 ай бұрын
I don’t worry about surplus’s resources. As a FTP TH10, mine are always full waiting 1d+ for my next upgrade to complete. I’m more concerned that they decreased the building construction time for lower TH levels, but not proportionally the lab research times. I don’t want to go to the next TH without completing all my lab upgrades. Finally, Hero upgrades should be 1d 12h for every single level. It simply isn’t fun to play a game for months a time without any heroes.
@BYTheKillerB 4 ай бұрын
Focus on special troops that you like, the game is set for you to finish your upgrades way way before your labs. Like sometimes you need 6 months to fully max and 1 year to max lab. So don't bother, the game is made to be played that way. At least if one day you are maxed out, you still have your lab to play for
@danalvin29 4 ай бұрын
Lower TH just feels like upgrading the Heroes just doesn't make sense anymore, and its hard to gather ores when some Clans aren't as active
@MrDoodleBrian 4 ай бұрын
I think they should add ore in clan medal shop, it will help for f2p.
@dallanbenge9145 4 ай бұрын
Can you drop the updated link for the th12 progression base please
@ramankumar2666 4 ай бұрын
0:55 Bro if u have Elixir Storage full and can't use that Elixir anywhere then spend 3-4 Million Elixir in Capital Gold Forge atleast it will be utilised somewhere
@TrentSLucas 4 ай бұрын
You need a free builder, right?
@ramankumar2666 4 ай бұрын
yeah right @@TrentSLucas
@Charly_Z 4 ай бұрын
Now there is more grinding to do along with pets 😢 I havent even gotten that far
@bezoxff2371 4 ай бұрын
I m almost a max th 12 only traps left which are rushed heros are maxed out ❤❤
@danalvin29 4 ай бұрын
Just feels like upgrading your hero for days just to add a few HP and DPS is meaningless compared to just trying to grind for the items. Just wish we can use dark elixir to upgrade items as well
@SinisterChef. 4 ай бұрын
My max equipment after update was level 9🤔I like the update but that makes me confused
@roshahassan2705 4 ай бұрын
They should make every five level heroes upgrade get equipment ores so that people still need to upgrade their heroes
@spinster4000 4 ай бұрын
You should be able to use heroes in attacks while theyre upgrading.
@dissent578 4 ай бұрын
is it worth prioritizing upgrading heroes heavily when moving to a new th level? i mean im getting to th14 next week and i dont know what is more worth...pets or heroes?
@H33X 2 ай бұрын
Heros are way better then pets
@dissent578 2 ай бұрын
@H33X yeah but while farming with sneaky you don't care about heroes and in wars you can use potions. Plus pets are less expensive
@yaboifuego4994 4 ай бұрын
If the Hero Equipment is the new way for hero abilities I then wonder why hero upgrade times are still so long. They should reduce the upgrade times by 25-50%
@RIFADUL_AMIN 4 ай бұрын
I was excited for hero equipment but now I see its another way to slow us Down 😅
@King1000k 4 ай бұрын
War waxaa kugu ugaa th16 maxaa dhacay ee th12 ku keenay misa waa accont kale wax sheeg😮
@filbertchandra9419 4 ай бұрын
If you need to spend that surplus resource with no other place to put it on anymore, go to the forge and craft capital gold with it. It takes 3 days, and you can use up to 3 slots. I've done that while trying to max out TH 13 and it works.
@Thomas_Angelo 4 ай бұрын
I was finishing town hall 12 before this update, now I'm stuck here.
@Anonymous_019 4 ай бұрын
Worth to get the giant gauntlet or buy books and pots instead ?
@muhtasimrafid2809 4 ай бұрын
Get the gauntlet
@ARYAN-ib4zy 4 ай бұрын
One question. Should we upgarde our heros or it does not matter now ?
@Eliterum 4 ай бұрын
what do you think?
@ARYAN-ib4zy 4 ай бұрын
@@Eliterum well i don't know that's why i am asking 🤣🤣
@Yollokill 4 ай бұрын
In my opinion (Without hero potion) Upgrading heroes is still worth it as the stats of a low level to a high level hero is a lot But due to the new hero potion You might not need to upgrade if you don't attack very often as those potions only last an hour Depends whether you like to spend a hero potion very often
@scgaming0791 4 ай бұрын
Im with jo at th12 eith same stats❤😂
@user-tr2jf7lr7s 4 ай бұрын
The biggest problem is game balance. There is no defense at all.
@lewisjordan9880 4 ай бұрын
Absolutely gutted , I was a TH11 nearly maxed everything out just my mortars and heroes , someone had phished my account and I’ve lost many years worth of progress , and a lot of money spent on this game , really sad that I won’t play this game again I’ve tried everything like contact support multiple times and they don’t do nothing but just at , it’s not my account even tho I have shown multiple bank transfers for the game etc , absolutely gutted , rip clash of clans 🙂
@aadhikeshavanaadhikeshavan2273 4 ай бұрын
Like super miner and snow mite spell got nerfed 😢
@monsterx205 4 ай бұрын
My heroes upgrading all the time so just have one available is a + for me😅
@hariprasanth5581 4 ай бұрын
i thought that you may forgot this series. 😂 😂
@hosamhrhsh3125 4 ай бұрын
at this point, I will never come back to this game , I miss out on so much stuff that I can't keep up
@davidavalos5580 4 ай бұрын
Walls is something I always struggle with 😢
@jaimegomez6089 4 ай бұрын
make a upgrade guide for th13
@nitishawe 4 ай бұрын
I love your content. Just a suggestion please make videos on least 7 min. 😅
@nemanjajakovljevic8015 4 ай бұрын
They need to add runes of those ores
@paulonetto9652 4 ай бұрын
I didn't enjoy those last updates. The one about UI made me missclick and lose resources 3 times, this one about the equipments just seems too grindy and now upgrading heroes is not enough anymore because there are those silly gems to look for too. And the new town hall, idk, it seems that they just made it to address the problem of too many buildings and the limited space of the village. But what if players don't make these upgrades, will their villages run out of space for the upcoming buildings? I don't know, seems that the game is going in the wrong direction lately.
@sajjadhossain7576 4 ай бұрын
Yeah I just don't like the equipment system as it's tiring and I know by the time I'm done with upgrading certain equipments (which the optimal way than upgrading all of them) they'll be nerfed. Didn't even like this year's holiday rewards as the event forced to chose between a gear and skin so yeah the game is straying away from more f2p friendly. Just a tencent thing
@hamzamubashar2664 4 ай бұрын
Like I said there should be a ore collector like elixir and gold
@m.bahadrunal765 4 ай бұрын
Wait what! Why my heroes equipment levels was 8 lv as default? :(
@FrashStart-qi4ml 4 ай бұрын
Bro do u know why Google is giving so much op offers to us and other countries but in India things are not to get this
@projectskylinegtr 4 ай бұрын
ya not super into another resource that needs to be grinded/wait to obtain. Whatever, guess we will see how it plays out
@kingofgodkingofgod6864 4 ай бұрын
I am using both rage and life gem without eternal tome at th12 xd
@dajnaweed 4 ай бұрын
Jo did the gold/elixir and dark elixir collectors get a new level? Becouse im pretty sure that you couldnt upgrade them at town hall 12 right? If yes can you please make a new upgrade guide?
@abetucker8503 4 ай бұрын
bruh, why would he make an entirely new guide over 1 change? And yes the Collectors can be upgraded at Town Hall 12.
@chinesename1171 4 ай бұрын
I think the grind for the ores is balanced. Just because I feel like you should have the work to level something up, especially if it doesn’t take a builder or any time to upgrade
@mahmed7165 2 ай бұрын
I got to th12 on February 4th And Now my th12 is 73% complete while equipments are 40% done
@killerirfan2.074 4 ай бұрын
Take love From Bangladesh ❤️
@masonkline2644 4 ай бұрын
the th14 one or th15 now i'm assuming
@killuazzoldyck9682 4 ай бұрын
Nice but what about th13?
@english8561 4 ай бұрын
Yes
@TonyStark-el6gj 4 ай бұрын
Lot of clans are active it's just players don't play daily and don't do war correctly even if they are included some don't even attack some waste Attacks
@WilliamWilliamWilliamWill 4 ай бұрын
We really need more ways to collect ores.
@handsomeelfo8254 4 ай бұрын
i think they should make heroes has their own "innate" ability instead of in equipment, like AQ innate ability is her invisibilty vial which mean theres no more that vial equipment for her, BK rage vial, Warden aura (i forgot which item it is, RC with her gem? and the upgrade would be like before, every 5 level would upgrade the innate ability
@Noahhhhhhhhhhh3 4 ай бұрын
yooo new episode
@iceberg789 4 ай бұрын
my all builders are working nonstop 24hrs for months, sometimes even on steroids. yet th12 is far from complete.
@marloc2019 4 ай бұрын
It seems to me Supercell is following the same infamous path they went through with Clash Royale... I reckon they learn nothing out of the slow demise of CR
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