10:10 The vast size of Sauron's army also explains why Denethor pretty much went crazy by the battle of the pelennor fields. He knew that nothing he could do would save Gondor from destruction.

Sauron: Have the entire army arrived? All my vaste army of slaves, vassals and allies? Minion: Yes great Lord. Sauron: Excelect. We will match forth once the host is ready! Minion: There is a problem my lord. Sauron: A problem? Minion: Yes lord. Most of your host had to march through hundreds of miles of empty lands to get here. They have exhausted their supplies, both food and water. Sauron: Why not simply re-supply them? Minion: Because Mordor is a barren wasteland, as you ordered lord. Sauron: Yes. I do love the view. Now bring in supplies from our vast slave worked farms around the Sea of Nurnen! Minion: Those farms are more than 300 miles away. Wagons can’t even carry enough fodder and water to keep their animals alive, much less carry any cargo. We get only a trickle from them. Sauron: So what’s the bottom line? Minion: Starting tomorrow, 10% of your army is going to die each day from thirst and starvation. In 2 week, they’ll all be dead. Sauron: Then we must attack at once! Minion: Yes lord. The closest water source large enough to meet the need of the host is the Anduin river. That’s 2 weeks' march away. Sauron: And you said they would all be dead in 2 weeks? Minion: The last of them should drop just as they reach the river. Sauron: Who the hell came up with his stupid plan!?! Bring me his head!! Minion: Yes great lord.

Imagine having all these forces and losing the war.

There is two major points in the books that you did not even mention, one is the fact that Aragon reveal himself to Sauron, who in return unleashes his armies before they are really ready, meaning most of his standing army was utterly destroyed at the battle of the Pelanor fields, and therefore most if not all the reserves was drawn up for the battle of the black gate, meaning Sauron only had around 50000 troops available in reserve in Mordor at that point. The second point is the vision I think it is Frodo that gets it from the mountain top where the fellowship splits up (can't recall the name) he get visions of vaste forces gathering from the south and east to travel to Mordor. Therefore most of Saurons standing armies was destroyed, but it was only a fraction of his real forces, and he would have gathered enought troops to win a second siege of Minas Tirith if left alone, that in turn was why the ring had to be destroyed.

The book mentioned that Rohan was thrice outnumbered just by the Haradrim, not taking into account all the orcs and Easterlings. That would be around 18,000, so I would estimate the forces at Minas Tirith to be around 100,000. As the book mentioned this wasn't even the largest host Mordor mentioned, this carries some frightening implications.

Great video Darth Gandalf since you’ve done a video on Saurons strength Will you be doing one on morgoths army’s

Then, there are also the Orc tribes of the misty mountains and Gundabad, which I would estimate also in the several ten thousands! The misty mountains and Gundabad were ‚cleansed‘ in the Dwarven-Orc War and the Battle of the Five Armies, but these two events happened over 200 years in the first case and around 80 in the second case ago... enough time for Orcs to increase their number there

Can you imagine if the forces of umbar , easterlings , harad would have sided with the free people ! It would have been so different. Sucks to see humans vs humans when orcs didn't even like humans .

I like your figures. What people often forget about armies is the logistics involved in keeping an army in the field. Sauron could not have brought his full might to bear as that number of beings could not be supported in one place. The army faced by the Armies of the West at the Black Gate would probably have been the standing guard of the Gates and Udûn supplemented by Easterling cavalry/mounted infantry which could have been brought up quickly with minimal supplies.

So his armies were comparable to that of the Roman Empire at it's peak military power which is estimated to have been 450,000.

I really like the First Age and Third Age reversely mirrors each other. Initially in the FA many great princes there were: Feanor, Fingolfin, Finrod Glorfindel, Ecthelion etc and great Men like Turin, Tuor, Hurin Hour, Beren etc. I mean they have the dream team and even Fingolfin himself boasted before the Battle of Sudden Flame that except for treason among themselves Morgoth could never win against them. But because they never had the support of neither the Valar or Iluvatar via the Curse of Mandos all went to shit. The late TA was the exact opposite. Everything has dwindled beyond recognition and its simply too many to mention who and what were nerfed. Calling the Men of the West and their Dwarven and Elven allies underdogs is an understatement. Yet still they pull of a win. This is because God and the Valar were low key with them all along.

As someone who loves knowing army sizes in wars and battles from history and in fantasy settings, watching your videos has been the best part of this month for me. Keep up the amazing work and can't wait for the next one! :)

Very sound estimates good sir. You're Channel deserves more recognition! Glad it's happening

After watch your video on redeming Sauron, my head canon is that of Sauron being the kind of person who'd be ecstatic to deal the logistics of such a large army.

What about the Orcs in the Misty Mountains and in the former Region of Angmar and Orcs in Gundabad?

Well researched. Thanks for compiling g this information, must have taken quite an effort.

Great video man and respect for taking the time to do such research.

IIRC Orcs do very badly in daylight, so Sauron needed Humans from the east to fight in his wars. Mt Doom erupted in a giant billowing cloud of smoke and ash that blotted out the sunlight, making it possible for his orcish armies to march. In contrast to the well equipped armies of both Rohan and Gondor the orcs were poorly equipped. The numbers are large, but the Men of the west were much better quality of troops.

Very nicely done video (and videos) from you. I might suggest to consider the historic atlas of middle earth (if you haven't already), since there are numbers of the major battles based on estimates or direct citations from one or another book (including references). There the total number of the arming sieging Minas Thirith is (including Haradrim and Easterlings) is estimated as 45.000, although your estimation has a good point too. I hope I may habe pushed you even further. Thumps up and keep up your nice work.

Not even counting the Goblins of Moria, Orcs of Gundabad, Mt Gram, Grey Mountains etc etc. However we definitely don’t have any numbers for them except for Frodo’s vision on Amon Sul of Orcs issuing forth from caves like ants coming out of their hills.

I think the forcs of the easterlings, haradrim and umbar were way to much since gondor fought against the easterlings and haradrim at the same time and still won most the battles.

Its so hard to estimate Tolkiens world some times...at a glance at his maps it seems very empty and void in many regions...but if you read between the lines there are people in many places..... only thing i think you estimate a bit to high might be Dol Guldur...just a feeling that they wernt many there..the places they attacked wernt huge when it came to armies...elfs were realy dwindling....battle of five armies 500 dwarfs were about to take on both the men and elfs...so my guess is that the wooden realm of mirkwood wasnt that many ...and lorien either....and if rohan could muster about 10 000 i dont think the other regions around mirkwood could do much more

So powerful that he at least could have spared 1 cave troll to guard mount doom..

You've been popping up all over my KZfaq, and I've liked everything I've seen. So with this, I finally subscribed to you brotha! Keep up the enthralling lore that is Tolkien's works! Also Star wars is another love of mine, so I guess you're perfect for me

Sauron was defeated by conventional means not once but twice. First when Numenor defeated mordor. They landed at Umbar and their host was so great and so powerful that when Sauron's armies saw the host they fled and abandoned their master (im guessing their host was around 500,000 to 1 million) Second when the armies of Gondor, Arnor, Khazad Dum, exiled Noldor, Lothlorien and woodland realm invaded Mordor(yes they INVADED Mordor) and laid seige to Barad Dur

Nothing compared to the Empire of Sigmar

Keep in mind that the bulk of Sauron's forces were Orcs which were much less efficient fighters than men or elves. With men of the average type, one could expect a 1-to-three or even 1-to-five ratio, that is one human can dispatch 3 to 5 Orcs before being overwhelmed. The crack Gondor troops and the Rohirrim would have been 1 to 8 or even 1 to 10. The Mordor Allies were human and could match 1-to-1, but there were fewer of them. The Nazgul were an over match of 1 Nazgul to 10 or 20 men, but there were only Nine. So, without the influence of Sauron himself humans could hold their own. However, with Sauron's power at play, even without the Ring, things were not going to go well for Gondor.

The supplemental materials for the movies actually did crunch some numbers for Sauron's forces. The army that marched on Minas Tirith, including Easterlings and Haradrim, was roughly 200,000 strong. The armies still encamped within Mordor numbered over 300,000, though they were quite clearly and understandably called forth in a hurry. Those same materials also stated the total size of Sauron's armies during the Second Age to also number roughly 500,000 total, so this seems to be the ideal size of what Sauron considers his standing armies. This is why he couldn't be defeated militarily: *80% of Middle-earth's population fought for his side*.

Sauron had 6 major forces before the start of hostilities. Minas morgal-attack Minas tirith all combined forces Dol guldor-attack loth lorien and reinforce the seige of erobor mostly orcs Rhun-attack erobor mostly Easterling Umbar- raid southern gondor take peligor co4sairs haradrim Black gates-reinforce dol goldor and intercept Rohan at cair andros

On top of this Sauron had additional forces up north including: Thousands of Orcs and Goblins when considering Moria, Mount Gundabad, Mount Gram. Additionally he had the beasts of Mirkwood, The Armies of Isengard which included 10,000+ Orcs and Uruk Hali’s as well as a unknown amount of Dunlundings Although they were only temporary allies, The Balrog of Moria which is not confirmed to have joined Sauron but likely held some alliance as his orcs were permitted into Moria. This isn’t even counting the creaters that inhabited middle earth such as the barrow wights even though few of these forces could participate in the conflict in a meaningful way. He even had a force of goblins which were strong enough to hold the pass north of Moria until Glorfindel cleared it

I REALLY appreciate the LOTR BFME 2 Music in this Video!

Great video, I love that you’re delving in and helping to provide us with some understanding of the strength of each of the peoples of Middle Earth! Did Dol Guldur not send a force to assist the attack on Dale and Erebor?

good video, but seems overestimated for the easterlings and harad. 40 000 easterlings and 60 000 haradrim is far to much

The book says only one finger of the hand of Sauron's armies had been checked at the Pelennor Fields. The army at the Black Gate must be only another finger. And Sauron was forced to launch his attacks before he was ready. Sauron clearly had vast forces of men in the East and South he had not even called up yet. At least half a million is a good guess. Sauron may have had up to a million men and orcs to pull from if he wanted to. One wonders how many men Sauron could have gathered had the Blue Wizards not turned great numbers of the Easterlings and Haradrim against him starting in the middle of the Second Age.

reminds me of the time Sauron lost to a maiden and her dog

I think morgoth’s army at its hieght was over a million.

During the rule of Krishnadevaraya Maharajara the Vijayanagar empire had 700000 soldier's (Hindu army)

This is probably the same strength Sauron had at the end of the 2nd age when he faced Gil-Galad and Elendil.

Imagine having an army of 300.000 strong and can't spare at least 10.000 to guard the mount doom :P

Great video mate, might be interested in a colab, got a review of the pot-de-fer vase cannon I'm working on next week if you'd be interested in featuring.

I wish we could get numbers on Numenor. We know that Minaster completely drove Sauron out of the North and we also know that Pharazons force was so poweful that Saurons armies would not fight for him.

Great vid, big numbers indeed

I'm not the biggest fan of conjecture but these are interesting to analyze. I think one should consider Dol Goldur and Moria one faction in the war of the ring. It is never made clear why Sauron seemed to ignore the Balrog in Moria. It is hinted/assumed that Sauron sent the goblins in to Moria, but if the Balrog was contacted, it's not ever mentioned. If Sauron did not know about the Balrog, that would not really make sense.

I collected the iron painted figures and it came with a book and it said that there's was 75,000 Orcs at this battle so that's what I've always said when asked how big it was.

Imagine spending entire afternoon, evening, night and then finally morning - just standing, watching front formations slowly taking the giant city. By the time the rohan force came I would be thanking them for ending my torture :p

It was ultimately divine providence that saw the end of sauron, frodos quest failed..

I've spent two days searching for this video just for the epic message at the end - If you outnumber the enemy 10 to 1, you are a real moron if you still manage to blow it. So true, so harsh. Like it!

The problem I have is that if Sauron's army outnumbered the forces of Gondor and Rohan many times over then why didn't he take Minas Tirith sooner? It's not like Sauron would have a problem throwing away orc or Haradrim lives to get a victory. Military leaders are hesitant because of not wanting to lose lives, being unsure of victory, and/or opening themselves up to other dangers such as attack from a third party. None of these seem to apply to Mordor.

I play Total war pc games and the army at minas tirath looks like close to 100000

But like 1 man, elve, dwarf can take 5 orcs

In my head I've always imagined several millions in Morder. And high thousands everywhere else.

Seems like overkill when you consider the full muster of Rohan was at least 12 thousand and Gondor probably had 10 thousand in all by the time of the siege lol

It's amazing how only 6000 rohiram took down the orc force at pelenor fields then at least three squads worth of mumakil.realistically givin the 70 000 of them along with the easterling army,then the Harrad renforcments.On top of all the crap the rohiram had to go through to get there.Every rider was atleast out numbered 9 to one.All that not including the hundreds of trolls brought to the battle which completly disapperd twards the end movie conveniently.Which alone could probably kill more than 1500 rohiram.Even if you caught them completely off guard and charged them head on successfully(even that scene was unrealistic Givin horses nature to not run into sharp objects and hundreds of meters of armourd orcs)they'd just get surrounded and literally drown in bad guys.Once a horseman is surrounded its pretty easy for 9 orcs to just kill him.You see in the movie the king litarally has 20 orcs around him while he's fighting just staring like deer. The mumakil would just mop the few stragglers given that the only real mumakil Deaths were from the insanely lucky spear throw, legolas and marys plot armour letting him get so close to one.Then they would just take the city.that's all forgetting the more than hundred thousand orcs and evil men scatterd across gondor and rohiram territory in the after math of them hearing about the defeat probably causing havoc.Then mordor and harrad them selfes.

What does it actually *matter* literarily or mytho-poetically what the “exact numbers of orcs, Easterlings, Haradrim, trolls, Corsairs, and Black Numenoreans” were in Sauron’s armies? When the text of LOTR tells us that the Fallen Maia’s forces are “too vast to be defeated by force of arms,” **THAT** is the essential information: it tells us that no matter how magically “powerful” Gandalf is; regardless of how brave, inspiring, stalwart, and strong Aragorn is; no matter how accurate Legolas’s bow, or how hard Gimli’s axe swings; no matter how gallant Eomir is and how self-sacrificing and altruistic Theoden King, Eowyn, Merry, and Pippin are--what *really* can bring Sauron The Dark Lord down is the simple, loving, loyal, tenacious selfless *friendship* of two seemingly small, insignificant Hobbits staying TRUE to the end. THAT is the quest that can hit Sauron where he is *weakest,* in the place nearly everyone thinks embodies his POWER: The Ring. Caring more for the Other than for Oneself: THAT is All that can defeat the Immense--but ultimately empty--Pride and Narcissism of Sauron… THAT is Tolkien’s crntral, humanist message in LOTR. It is, in truth, both impossible *and* irrelevant to try to put precise numbers on all the soldiers of Sauron in LOTR, as such numbers are ultimately *beside the point.*

so what you are telling me is the entire population of known middle earth is smaller than a single city... because even if we assume that the army's are as little as a third of the populations of each region (and probably more than that for the dwarves and elves) then middle earth has about 1.53 million people... slightly less people then Phoenix Arizona, over an area bigger than Europe

Imagine having to feed all of that on a daily basis, almost perpetually. For long decades, even hundreds of years at a time. No wonder his lands looked like a scab.

And he still lost to two hobbits with the power of friendship

That's crazy to think these numbers when a host of 10,000 is excellent, like Gondolin in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Please do Sauron's Army vs The Night Kings Army in a all out War.

Umm.... There were 10,000 banners under Theoden, which, based on the book, puts the Morgul Army at 100,000

Sauron is powerful that he has not only orcs man as well like easterlings,haradrim,cosiars,variags, Wargs,trolls,nazgul,black uruk hai,mumakil,fell beast.

*Sauron fought valiantly and Sauron died*

Peter Jackson said there was 200,000 orcs alone attacking minis tirith. How big was the orc army in the books? That’s not including the army that was still in mordor. It just seems almost impossible to be able to feed an supply armies that big

Wouldn't the numbers be somewhat lower, factoring in that many of those fighting in later battles such as the Moranon would be survivors from earlier battles rather than new fighters? Also, if he had such total numbers all he would have to do was unleash them en mass and no force would be able to stand against them, why would he leave such large numbers of Orcs in reserve?!? Send them to hit the rest of Gondor while Minas Tirith was sieged!

The Army that laid seige to Minus Tirith was at least 200,000 strong.

If you play wargames you know that when you see that shot of Mina’s tirith that ain’t 30,000 orca that’ like 200,000 and Peter Jackson behind the scene said there’s 200,000 orcs there

I feel these numbers are too big tbh. As said, Aragorn stormed the black gate with a little less than 6,000 men, say 5,900. Narrator said Saurons forces were 10x and more than 10x so at minimum 59,000 troops for Sauron. The battle of Pellennor fields is the greatest battle during the War of the Ring, I would say 60,000 fighting for Sauron just because it should be larger than the battle of Black Gate, with 18,000 being Haradrim. So, 119,000 troops overall from just these two battles. I didn't mention Faramirs statement, but there being 60,000 troops would fit with the statement than even if 1 Gondorian killed 10 of Saurons men they woukd still be overrun, assuming 3,000 this would fit and pretty high-end, 20 to 1. The other numbers as you said are an educated guess, but assuming Mordor and its allies were 3x larger than this it would be 357,000, which is a generous but safe assumption imo. I just don't think the other events are enough to make any real guesses on. However, considering that on Pellennor and at the Black Gate entire armies of the Free People's were said to be outnumbered over 10 to 1, it's possible to assume that Saurons forces were at minimum 10x larger than the Free people's since that's what Tolkien seemingly tried communicating with us. So, you could I suppose get a force of over half a million, but that's assuming some pretty lofty numbers considering Aragorn initially wanted to attack the black Gate with an army of 10,000 men but he couldn't, with 3,000 having to stay behind to defend their lands and another 1,000+ losing morale and spread across other areas, as well as that minor attack that may have caused some casualties.

In the movie át Pelennor fields the orc army eas 200 thousand strong and 15 or 20 thousand more haradrians May be they had a bigger army than in the books

One of the things that I don't like in the movie is about that good side is always going with "Oh Sauron is too strong,we can't beat him' and at the end it was easy..

Free peoples meanwhile: "We've got 60,000 soldiers and a prayer"

I figure his individual armies were not even that big or powerful, but he could just keep quickly replacing and throwing them at the free peoples until they were destroyed in a war of attrition.

The Easterlings... so underused in the movies, we basically see them only marching, ONE time, and then they come from the SOUTH, not the East, to Morannon 😂 very well thought through that scene 👏🏻👏🏻✌🏻 If you haven’t read the books, these could also be simply better armored Southrons

Let me propose this; Sauron can not be defeated through strength of arms. This is referring more to his immortal, Nature in that the only way TOO defeat it would be througb a bigher order of Ainur or any of the Heralds of the Maia. That seem acceptable?

The mogul army was the smallest of three hosts of orcs Sauron also sent troops from barudur and other fortresses this does not include the the orcs of ithilian being the black uruks or the orcs already on the other side of osgiliath.

Very nice video, do you have any information about Isengard's army size?

great video but I think there where much more than 60'000 orcs at the black gate because at Minas Tirith they were able to defeat the orcs but at the black gate they were hopelessly outnumbered until Frodo destroyed the ring and I also do think there were no more orcs in Mordor that weren't at the black gate.

where the armies of Isengard in this count

If Gandalf didn't do what he did in the Hobbit, Gondor and the rest of Anor and the elven kingdoms may have been screwed. Not to mention that he took out a Balrog. Gandalf in my books is a true hero, without him Middle-Earth may have fallen. Then again, I blame Celebrimbor for everything. For the rings anyway. Love the video by the way.

I'd lower amount of Minas Morgul forces. Afterall, it's fortress located in small, hard to reach (and supply) valley. Imho MM army would reach up to 20 000 orcs. Still, it's large force, though.

I tbought the Pelinor Fields army was 200,000.

How did Sauron feed The army?

I think you focused to much on armys. Lets not forget sauron is a maiar, one of the strongest of them. Even without the ring he is impossibel to defeat by mortals.

You forgot mercenaries from Khand.

All I can think about this is like, " yes we gotta fight for our Dark Lord cause he'll kill us if we don't but also Fuxk the state..."

If only he made a door with a lock in front of sammath naur

The battle of unnumbered tears would Gondar stand to that prolly not

Why use orcs on the frontline at all? The Haradrim and the various human tribes of the East that worship Sauron as a God all fought better and were able to forge better equipment than the average Morgul or Mordorian Orc/ Uruk. Why not just raise large human armies and have the Orcs work admin back in Mordor or police occupied/sensitive areas. If any orcs should be sent to the frontlines..its those capable of taming and riding Wargs. These things are bear-like ( going by the film depictions) and are as fast as a horse and more powerful in a charge than Gondorian or Rohan cavalry if used properly.

What about the goblins that was in the mountain in the movie Hobbit

How does Sauron's armies during the war of the ring compare to the Numenorean army which is said to be the most powerful army middle earth have ever seen? To me it seems during the war of the ring, Sauron total army is more than 250,000 so I'd question if even the Numenorean army would stand a chance.

How powerful do you think Morgoth's armies were durning the First Age? I always imagined that Morgoth's army were in the millions.

Power does not equal size. Training,experience etc.

Wow. Imagine if the armies of the second age faced Sauron, they would've fucked Sauron's shit up. This makes you wonder how Aragorn was able to gain the fealty of the Easterlings and Haradrim after the War of the Ring when they outnumbered the West at the end of the war

How did the humans and elves almost win, up until they actually did with a lucky blow, during the second age war when they didn’t have the tactic of destroying the ring? Also, bothers me that the dwarves didn’t take part in the battles…

Barad-dur/reserve forces

And all those conventionally undefeatable armies where conventionally defeated at Helm's Deep, Pelennor, Lothlorien, old forest, the lonely mountain... If Sauron had so many men at his disposal, he took great efforts to every time send just so many of them they could be defeated, keeping the rest in useless reserve. I conclude: Mordor did not win in time not because his armies were too weak but because the supreme commander - Sauron - was a military amateur.

Ok ngl, as impressive as saurons army is its clear that morgoth's would easily beat saurons. Morgoth actually put his power into his army in which case morgoth's power surpasses saurons by a lot so you can imagine how strong his army is. Not to mention morgoth had balrogs

i wont lie i dont know everything has i was not a big reader of token. but i do love the story, and lore. you probably answer this in other videos. I will look. But i am curious did none of the tribes resist the dark lord in the east?

I think this is too high a number, Sauron would've overran all of middle earth with that many troops, not to mention it would be impossible for Mordor to feed them.

Didint Sauron attack erabor in the war of the ring

You neglected to mention the special forces....Great beasts, Trolls and of course the 9 Ringwraiths... In addition, your didn't add the army of the dead to the free people tally.