Sorry for any bits of jank! I've had to write this video quickly, and didn't have much time to clean-up edits between me suddenly getting the flu and losing all my scripts. Hopefully, you can still enjoy the video.

I think existance of Dragon Imp is as simple as Popcap wanting thematic summon for Zomboss that makes level harder. Reason why I think that is that there is no fire themed scrapped shrooms from this world.

I love how half of the comments aren’t even talking about pvz2 but just the fact that lob corp music is here

I never thought Dragon Imp would be this dangerous or complain-worthy...

Creeps20 summoning 578 thousand unnamed project moon fans to comment “project moon mentioned” after he uses lob corp music in the beginning part of his video

Comment Ratio on this video: 25% General On Topic Stuff 25% Discussing the Flaws of Dragon Imp 50% PROJECT MOON SLEEPER AGENT ACTIVATION

I think limiting the player's options can be a good thing. The Civilization IV devs said that "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." If the player finds a loadout that can beat every level, they'll use that same loadout to beat every level, and that'll be boring. There quite a few plants in plenty of different mods that I never bother to use just because it might be a waste of time to figure out how they work compared to just using the known working strategy. In Into The Storm, levels are hard enough that it's a fun puzzle in each level to try to figure out what plants are necessary to beat it. Of course, this can go too far. I'm thinking Eclise, where on the 2nd and 3rd quests, the levels are so hard that you have to play perfectly to beat each level, which doesn't work in PvZ where levels are so long that it takes a while between conceiving of trying a way to fix a mistake, and getting to try it.

Requiem stock market goes up (after it dies) - I consider this an absolute win! now I need to stop myself from making Requiem II - again - lol (haha jk... maybe)

You know, given Altverz has been going back and redoing some of their levels and adding new threats, I really hope we get something substantial for FBC, because Sasquatch imp really doesn't cut it. Also pro tip for people struggling with the world, whether it be altverz, or other mods that have it, bring lava guava as your primary heat source. It's cheaper than every other heated plant, but is still just as effective.

SUMMONING AN UNTOLD NUMBER OF SLEEPER AGENTS TO THE SOUND OF PROJECT MOON MUSIC Edit: THERE ARE DOZENS OF US! DOZENS!

Huh, i wouldve expected dragon imp to fit, i guess i fell into tje square hole

I feel like altverz is able to make dragon imp fit under 1 strict condition that it changes with Frostbite caves. Heaters is not the only answer to ice winds/zombies that chill plants. Hot potato is an actually viable (albeit micro intensive) way to deal will frozen plants and any plant that inflicts chilled or freezes plants is immune to frost like fire plants. This gives you a different way to handle the core issues with FC and because you fundamentally don't need to rely on the heater+support attacker combo, dragon imp now has a different role in encouraging other strategies that the level designer can exploit, like how frost buildup cannot be solved by hot potato so crucial winds can disable your plants at the most dangerous times or how relying on winter melon alone is hard and early game dangers can be pushed with weasel hoarder. Your conclusion was completely right, and when you modify the core issue of FC, dragon imp can take a new role and serve a purpose beyond failing to solve an old problem.

God magically summoning 110,920 unnamed Project Moon fans to reply "PROJECT MOON MENTIONED" on a random PVZ2 modding video

PROJECT MOON MENTIONED

Hey wait a minute that's LOBOTOMY CORP MUSIC 4:00 ! Great video, always nice to see more PVZ2 bits from you even if I gave up playing it years ago

THE WAY MY BODY JUST, TURNED TO FACE MY SCREEN AS SOON AS I HEARD THE NEUTRAL SONG FOR LOBOTOMY CORP GOOD LORD on a note unrelated to project moon, honestly your videos really make me consider picking up pv2 again every time I watch them , and this time im considering going for it modded . ..

was not expecting to hear Lobotomy Corporation music at all, instant 10/10

started playing lobcorp recently and the music gave me flashbacks lmao. very good video. I'd always groan when I see a dragon imp (or other, similar heathens), and it's nice to have someone transform these groans into a well structured and articulated point. I'd like to add a few things about how some other mods approach FBC, mainly ecl and rfl, because they both add a new dodo variant. Robo dodo in rfl is a nice tanky variant to serve as a more significant threat to lanes you'd otherwise ignore due to slider tiles. Doesn't add much, but it's not unwelcome. Eclise's Nether Dodo is very weird for many reasons, mainly due to how odd some of the plants it flies above are, but I kinda like how it's a wide enough selection that can each fit into different roles and into different strategies, as opposed to the wind gimmick that forces fire plants which almost always take up the dps role. I can see why you didn't bring these up though (or alrverz's Piercing Cold, now that I think about it), it's because they don't particularly relate to the main point about FBC's flaws with its main gimmick and how mods go about fixing it.

You've hit my complaint about adding Imp Dragon to Frostbite Caves perfectly. FC already locks you to fire plants and then ID blocks them which essentially makes fire plants heat producers that you play with sun producers just locking good strategies even further

Here's some ideas on how I feel Frostbite Caves can be improved. Just be warned that I'm no expert on game design, this could probably be massively improved. First off, cold plants also need to be immune to frost. With fire plants clashing with chilling plants, the usefulness of chilling in Frostcaves is often low. Making chill plants be immune not only encourages the use of them, but it also provides an alternative to using only fire plants, as now you can create a strategy using mostly frosty plants. Yes, I understand that forcing a specific set of plants is bad game design, but not only does this fit but I have more to add to it. Fire plants usually have high damage. High damage triggers waves faster and speeds up the pace of the level. Chilling plants stall the zombies and slow the pace of the level. See what I'm getting at here? I think the Frostbite Caves gimmick should be level pacing. You can choose to use excessive fire plants for effective frost immunity and risk getting overwhelmed by (new?) special zombies, or draw out the game with ice plants with mediocre frost immunity, but risk getting your other important plants overwhelmed by frost late-game due to how long it's been building up the rest of the level. I also think fire plants should have an obvious downside. Maybe they're TOO good at heating, and cause the ground tiles to melt into water tiles, requiring a Lily Pad? Or perhaps they cause icicles to fall from the ceiling, damaging your plants? There's a lot of room for ideas.

NO. NO NO NONONONONONO. NO YOU DIDN'T THAT'S LOBCORP MUSIC. NO. MY BRAINROT, NO...

I find it funny how the video itself is "How Requiem fixed Frostbite Caves and how other mods fuck it up" Im all for it it because of my many-times-expressed admiration of Requiem and its overall design

Hyperdermic Hollows in Reflourished really bugged me with not only the fire-immune zombie, but with the reintroduction of Pyre Vine, which despite being a fire plant not only doesn't have warming but isn't immune to frost at ALL. I get it would pretty much trivialise the ice winds if it wasn't made that way, but lack of utility combined with its weak stats makes me wonder why it was even added in the first place.

A project moon sleeper agent hears Neutral 1 from a mile away

"Dragon Imp should not be in Frostbite Caves" Charred Zombie from RFL Hypothermic Hollows: Sup boi

Even funnier part about fire imp, that doesn't really matter now, is that it was an even *more* inane addition when it was first added Why? Well, because there were so few fire plants. There was a grand total of 5, Snapdragon, Cherry Bomb, Spudow, Jalapeno, and Torchwood, the latter two being premium plants as well This means the average player only had three plants that the Fire Imp was immune to at the time, and while I personally used Snap Dragon a lot (loved the design when I was younger) you really wouldn't run into this issue unless you actively used these plants (in endless) I can believe the "Fire Imp was part of further plans for Dark Ages" theory because at release Dark Ages only had 15 levels, it was tiny, and I could see it having been pushed more into a dragon theme in the missing 10 levels that made Fire Imp more relevant, instead of just being a funny little minion that fits with the world's boss

18:30 I’d argue Parasol+Excavator encourages the use of 2 attackers,unlike Jester who actively punishes the use of non AOE plants and Dragon Imp in FC,who plays with Frost Winds that just make him an inconvenience,but not a threat.

3:31 project moon time, would love to see you do one of these types of video for their games

PROJECT MOON SLEEPER AGENT REPORTING IN FOR DUTY! LOBCORP MUSIC HAS BEEN SPOTTED, I REPEAT LOBCORP MUSIC HAS BEEN SPOTTED!!!

i hear it everywhere i go, there is truly no escape from it, in the end all i can say is… PROJECT MOON MENTIONED‼️‼️‼️ (somehow even after it happening so much, randomly hearing LobCorp/LoR/Limbus OST still is a total mental flashbang for me lmao) Very good video btw, im only now hearing of this mod but it does seem interesting enough to try and get pvz2 mods to work, again

YOU SCARED ME WITH THE LOBOTOMY CORPORATION MUSIC WHAT THE HECK

THE WHIPLASH I GOT FROM LOBOTOMY CORPORATION NEUTRAL MUSIC PLAYING.. I THOUGHT I HAD THE GAME OPEN... CREEPS YOU'RE TOO BASED... EDIT I JUST FINISHED THE VIDEO WHAT DO YOU *MEAN* NEXT VIDEO IS A LOBOTOMY CORP ONE?????? HUH?????????

requiem is such an amazing mod that does basically everything right. i think it's a must play for basically anyone that likes pvz

the lob corp music is real!!!!

project moon fans when their games are mentioned in any way shape or form: (i am that fan. the lobcorp ptsd is awful)

As someone who doesn't play mods, I didn't know people put dragon imp in frost cave, Like I always thought the issue was that Frost can lock out your backline without much counterplay. Because fire plants being viable isn't a bad thing, having no other options is. Which is why I really like the auto defrost, it puts it more in line with Wizard and the likes.

Personally I don't agree too much with this. The way FC limits the players options in mods can be good, so long as you're not using only heating plants. There's this one BTD6 level that I really like where every ten rounds after you place a tower, said tower gets frozen for a few rounds. This forces you to experiment and find the strategies you can use. Mods usually follow this same mindset and I think it works. Dragon Imps only make these worlds force you to have variety. In other words, the only thing they really do is force the player from not only using fire-based plants. Like you said, fire plants are often very strong in their own right, but choosing solely these plants should not be a strategy in a frigid world, which Dragon Imp highlights to the player. Same with Jester and Parasol Zombie, where in mods, they highlight to you that you can't only use certain plants, while still needing them to help defend. Like you can't only use Fume Shroom and expect to make it through all of Alternate UniverZ's DA levels. I think the main issue is that FC only has one type of zombie, and those are tanks. There are sooo many Zombies in that world and a good majority of them are tanks, so you end up playing around the normal zombies because everything else isn't actually a threat, and because the tankiest zombies are all pretty slow, you find counters easily. In my opinion, it's the zombie variety, and not planet variety, that struggles. Not to say Requiem is a bad mod, in fact I do think that their take on FC is the most creative since it gives the specials a chance to shine. But I feel like saying that most developers in the modding scene are hobbyists and aren't too experienced in game design is a little ignorant of what the other mods are doing. Even then, Requiem's mod team also creates the mod as a hobby, so this shouldn't be an argument in the first place.

I enjoyed the endothermic hollows or whatever they're called from Reflourished, but I'm still relatively new to PvZ2. I was enjoying trying to find weird ways to supply heat while also dealing with fireproof zombies. Having to dedicate one of my slots to 1 of 4 fire plants didn't feel that bad, especially since one of them was torchwood, which has a stacking effect in reflourished. You could do some interesting things there.

I'm a bit annoyed that people didn't see the problem of forcing the player to do even more limited strategy options in the world infamous for doing so, but I'm also a game dev (ttrpg's and tcg's, not published yet) so maybe ya gotta have dev brain to see the problem with dragon imp in frostbite caves right away.

Jurassic Marsh needs justice 😭

My idea for an “ideal” FC is a bit silly,but I like it.Ban all heaters and put 2 torchwoods on the lawn(usually covering the first 3 columns) and have the world basically be a battle for field control.Hunter should work the same(maybe he’s better by not hitting ice blocks?).Dodo should be an infiltrator(he should just be faster and fly over everything).Weasel Hoarder is fine as is.Trog doesn’t spawn with Ice Blocks and just rushes down to your front line,punishing unbroken ice blocks.I kinda want Blockhead to just swap lanes on his own every minute.

3:32 lobotomy corporation ost. Project moon fans summoning circle activate

Recomendations showed this to me before push notifs

It's really cool to see these analyses of mods on top of the base game! Always a nice way to start the day :) thanks for making these types of videos, they're always really well thought out

project moon detected sleeper agents activated

I'd love a video talking about every world in Requiem (or, to be gutsy, a series of videos like this for every world, good luck writing an essay about Ancient Egypt if you try that)

I have a thought about the heat mechanic just use the lawnmower, change it into a brazier with wheels the plants that plant in the first role will not be frozen, and if the lawnmower is used, the plant in front of the used lawnmower is no longer protect by it and can be frozen.

So happy for your flu recovery. Losing a 3-hour script definitely sucks, though. Hope it didn't affect you much in a bad way, and good luck making new videos!

MOON PROTOCOL GO GO GO

Woooo Frostbite caves, the world with the funny instrument sounds! Putting Fire Imps in the world is something casual players would really hate but makes sense for game design.

LOBCORP MENTIONED SO BASED

GLORY TO PROJECT MOON

3:45 base L corp theme spotted, you have just reactivated my trauma

can't say i myself haven't fallen into the same 'square hole' people keep talking about. one idea i had for my idea of a FBC rework had toasty imp (design-wise, basically being the dodo rider imp by itself minus the neanderthal eyebrows), a medium-health zombie immune to being frozen, slowing cold _and_ fire. and serving as a sort of counter to purely fire setups which are what people often go with for FBC. i think the idea of this sort of zombie still works, as it fills an interesting niche... but using it as a traditional special in the vanilla FBC setup? yeah, that can lead to agony. i think it'd be best used sparingly and/or for more gimmicky levels, as you mentioned.

Bro i cant find the magnifying grass video :((

THE PROJECT MOON IS INVADING

Wooo rqm vid, I absolutely LOVE the variety of endgame threats in Requiem, removing gargs for most of the game

Frostbite Caves is in my opinion a very UNDER-RATED world

Dragon imps for me was never an issue as i prefer to have my defrosters always be lava guava, but unfortuantely altverz frostbite made that, well impossible to do.

ice to meet you

HOLY SHIT ONE OF MY FAV YTBERS USSING MUSIC FROM MY CURRENT HYPERFIXATION?

PROJECT MOON SLEEPER AGENTS ACTIVATE

Honestly, frostbite cave is one world I don’t have an opinion on. Pirate seas I see as a fun tutorial world Neon mix tour Is my personal favorite Big wave beach is miserably hard Lost city is way too easy Jurassic marsh and far future are gateways to powerful plants and I see the rest as fillers. I don’t hate the worlds I consider fillers in fact there are gimmicks, zombies, and plants I love from the filler worlds but honestly I could care less if they make it into a mod or not. (As long as magnet Shroom finds its way into the mod)

Woah. This is a much more appealing recommendation for Requiem than from anyone else I've heard. I kept being scared off of the choose-your-own unlock style of Requiem since you're then expected to choose the one or few plants you want next from literally ALL of them and feel forced to live with that choice (rocking my choice paralysis up to 11), but seeing the marked design improvements afforded by this change is impressive. Incredible! Does Requiem have any sort of plant showcase levels to see what I'm getting?

Lobomy...

It would be like if Fog in pvz1 introduced a zombie type immune to cactus / cattail shots

I like reflourished but GOD hypothermic is so annoying Getting absolutely spammed with freeze that not even 2 heaters can stop, being left with only the fire plants and then getting walled by a zombie that is immune to them and 90% of damage instas That mini boss fight is also really bad, it's the only level in the mod that feels impossible without powerup I wish the mod had more ways to make plants immune to being frozen and more cheap heaters that arent meant for combat

Frostbite caves (the original) is one of my favourite worlds

Requiem shout-out real

Ngl i think frostbite caves is the best world

Dark Ages is so underrated bro

I KNEW YOU WERE GONNA SAY REQUIEM, I CALLED IT

I NEED to play reqruim soon Also, I belive there COULD be solid evidence for this dark ages fire gimick theory, mainly because they could have brought back fog from pvz1 and make it so fire lights said fog up

To me, almost any change to Frostbite Caves is an upgrade.

I think dragon imp, jester, shovel and other zombies should have a 99% damage reduction as opposed to complete immunity, functionally, its the same, except now there's at least a possibility to defeat them with any plant, as opposed to the lock and key way of dealing with them.

bobobomy borporation

NEW CREEPS20 VIDEO YEAHHHHH

Omori music! Cool video creeps

i love that bit at 3:31 whats different about frostbite caves? Y E S ! ! !

Cool video, one of my favorite worlds

To summarize why dragon imp is bad in frostbite cave: The world forces you to use fire plants because everything else suck, so making fire plants also suck is not a great plan

Wow, pretty cool pvz2 video. *lob corp music starts playing* oh no...

I disagree with almost everything you said in this video. Frosbite caves its all about being restrictive, and that isn't a bad thing on its own. You may not like it, but other people do like it. Its restrictions is its main strengh, and adding the dragon imp doubles down on that strength. While for you its a problem, for other people is something enjoyable. Frostbite caves is not something that must be changed. Its something that can be changed to add some fresh air, like Requiem did. I'm not saying that you are completelly wrong. The problem is just that the objectivity that you talk with is misleading, since this is subjective.

cant wait to see crumbling armor in action😁 anyways ehh good video

Heres my crackhead idea, keep the base games frost mechanics BUT all sun producers are immune to frost and are heaters with varying degrees of effectiveness in heating, like sun shroom would heat slower than something like primal sunflower

Rare dark ages fan but I love dark ages the only issue I hate about it is jester zombies that invalidate nearly all plants, besides that I love it.

Oi Creeps. I haven't watched a single video for quite some time cus I was busy and now coming back I gotta give you credit! I know you have had problems with your speech and those problems, at least to my ears, are completely gone. Congrats on overcoming a hurdle!

while i love altverz, their version of the dragon imp absoluetly annoyed me

HOLY SHIT LOB CORP MUSIC

W FOR USING HOLLOW KNIGHT MUSIC

I wonder why this got recommended until I heard lobtomy corp ost....

Generally, when I play some casual mod, I still use fire plants accompanied by vines. Most of the time it works

Hi. I don't know if you are gonna see this, but I love your videos and I am a little hard of hearing. I know that your videos are scripted, and I would love it if you were to maybe copy and paste your scripts into youtube's caption system so that the captions would be more accurate.

Summoned every pm fan by using lob corp music

Dragon imp isn't entirely useless. in the modern-day expansion (Sorry, Dust up), they make use of winter melon and snap dragon, and other than chili bean, youll have to beat zombies while snapdragon keeps trolling winter melon. and its not like you can skip one, no. Dragn imps and parasols are in this level, and unless you can stall one of the 2 main threats, you wont win. and this is for some reason the only time popcap had a brain. I geuss the zombies ate them when making BWB and NMT. Heh.

My favourite world is neon mixtape tour.

Didnt realize half of your community are project moon fans

so we have this world that is a locked door? And what do pvz modders do to fix it? They add another lock to the door.

yay creeps uploaded

how to fix frostbite caves: -weaken plant ice cubes -make ice cubes targettable by melee plants (at low priority probably) -remove heat mechanics, and just make it so fire is more effective against ice cubes (maybe) I think the boss battle is so damn good tho