Ganondorf was done dirty. Especially in Brawl!

Just a little side note: Richter and Simon are echo fighters of the other, that is because the moveset that they have pulls moves from the game of Simon (castlevania II) and the games of Richter (castlevania Rondo of blod and castlevania simphony of the night), this doesn't change anything but is fun to think about it

Dark Samus was an assist trophy in Smash 4 and they could've used some of her moves from 4 put into Ultimate.

4:00 oh no, 2 years is mercy, this game had about 13 months of development.

I think Ganon's biggest disappointment isn't his normals. Imo, his normal attacks and even up special being copied from Falcon is perfectly fine. It's the lack of unique special moves that's the problem, because Ganondorf is known for not just being a powerhouse physically, but also a powerful magician.

Even before Smash Ultimate, clones are actually more of a pro for characters' chances to be in Smash since they're easier to develop compared to more original fighters. So it is baffling clones are so hated when even if you don't do those characters, it won't really increase other characters' chances of joining Smash & the fact that clones have been fighting game staples since the beginning (Ken literally being the OG clone fighter). It also especially helps that clone characters can essentially be legacy characters to allow their character counterparts to have more updated movesets (Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is the best example of that as a good bunch of characters in the roster like Miharu, Sebastian, & Michelle use older movesets of Xiaoyu, Lili, & Julia while the said latter have updated movesets), so Dr. Mario can basically be a legacy character to allow Mario to have more freedom for more updated moves (literally a lot prefer using Mario Tornado/Dr. Tornado over F.L.U.D.D. even to this day). Same for the Links & Pichu. Honestly, the Melee clones actually have warranted reasons to be in Smash, with Smash Ultimate even moreso than before.

Your clones are very impressive. You must be very proud.

Fun fact: Melee’s development time was actually 13 months, just barely over a year. It’s crazy how this game turned out so well with such an insanely short development time.

It's funny how so many of the clone characters were hated early on, yet have since become such popular characters in the series thanks to Sakurai retweaking many of them.

2:00 no fucking WAY that hit

took melee 13 months to be made :o

Clones have always been my favorite. As a wee lad i mained doc and young link in melee because i liked how they were slightly different versions of other charscters

Ganondorf being a Falcon clone was literally ONLY fine in Melee, and it was because of development circumstances. Defenders of his Falcondorf moveset in following games are not proper Ganondorf fans. They should have reinvented Dorf from the ground up in Brawl. If you like Warlock Punch so goddamn much, then they should have just made Black Falcon a playable character and given him Melee Dorf's moveset.

"Not many games were made in two years, especially one as iconic as Melee." Crash Bandicoot Warped, which was made in less than a year: "Am I a joke to you?"

As a fighting game fan, I never had any real distain for the clones in Smash as I think they make for fun rival battles. The only ones that bugged me a teeny bit were Ganondorf (for obvious reasons), Daisy & Dark Samus (the latter two are nearly palette swaps with nearly no differences). I don't mind Richter though since he and Simon are a combo of each other.

I'm surprised that Link's retooling didn't come up in this video. Clear example of the OG character changing while the clone doesn't.

Noooooo, Driftveil City theme again 😭😭😭

Melee's clone characters are one of the very reasons I was interested to play Melee, back in the Brawl days, as a kid. While the main force was an original character being Mewtwo, as I was a big fan of him (still I am to this day! Just look my pfp), I was charmed seeing how Young Link, Dr. Mario and goddamn Pichu were playable, like hello?? I was also a fan of Majora's Mask so seeing Young Link was an instant eye catcher, and both doc and specially Pichu surprised me on how obscure of a pic they were, before watching the roster on a video back then, I wouldn't ever thought in my life Pichu could be a thing. And only because they were so obscure, I was so invested on trying them out. A few years later I've got my hands on the game (not anymore sadly), and I can say it was so fun finally trying these weird choices, alongside Mewtwo ofc. It felt so alien, yet so damn cool, coming from Brawl. And this is why I love clone characters. Some of them can pull up some crazy pick you wouldn't even think about if the stars align

How long have people been asking for Black Shadow as a Falcon clone to preserve Ganondorf's moveset in the case Ganon got his own set of specials, after all?

We Stan Dr Mario in this house

I never viewed Pichu as a “joke character” in Melee, and I don’t think Sakurai ever explicitly referred to it as that. Pichu was confirmed to have been developed as the weakest fighter of the roster, but I don’t think “weak” and “joke” are mutually exclusive. Speaking casually, I think Pichu is very good in Melee. Competitive viability doesn’t determine everything about a character, but I think, even in the competitive setting, Pichu can still perform decently. Characters don’t need to be capable of winning a major in order to be worth something. Pichu is just as fast as Pikachu if not faster in some areas, and it being so small makes Pichu difficult to hit. Pichu’s attacks are actually deceptively powerful, and the self-damage gimmick isn’t that bad if you learn to properly balance usage between the electrical and physical moves. I think the self-damage gimmick is unique, because it gives Pichu more of an “advanced difficulty” feel. Novice players will dislike Pichu because of the self-damage, but skilled players who want a challenge can learn to master Pichu and work around its flaws. Hot take this may be, but I think Pichu is one of Smash’s best fighter inclusions. Most people will say “just choose Pikachu,” but I think there’s something special about Pichu’s fighter design that helps it stand out.

roy also suffers a lot in melee due to the quick nature of changing his frame data from marth's resulting in a lot of his attacks just having wierd hitboxes, as the speed changes to his animations didn't line up with the changes to when his attacks went into their active/recovery periods, ending with a lot of his attacks having the hitboxes at weird places in the attack that tend to make them even stubbier than they'd seem the most iconic of these is probably dash attack, just due to the differences. marths is an amazing scoop and great tool, roy's... doesn't have an active hitbox while he's swinging the sword, instead active when its on the ground below him and going inactive as soon as he swings, leading to a lot of clips of him just cutting through nothing. most of the other clones in melee dodge this by having either generally simmilar speed or long active periods that make them work anyway (or possibly just it getting noticed and fixed in development) but it really gimps roy. its hard to be a brawler when your sweetspot hitboxes literally can never hit a opponent

I actually loved Ganondorf in Melee since even though it wasn't accurate to source material at all he just felt so satisfying to play. It's a shame no other version of him has managed to feel as good as he did in Melee.

To add, it's great that the echoes made it in. However, given the length of time updates were being pushed out, there's no reason at the very least number tweaks could have happened to samus/dsamus and peach/daisy over time, for example Feature focus in trailers and most egregiously some animations are completely different--samus and dark samus have sometimes wildly different posing that it's weird that the characters are functionally identical to this day

AYYYY Honest content!

Now they still need to fix their Echo Fighters.

Inkling echo fighter could be the rival Octolings

Ngl, haven’t watched the whole vid yet, but Richter and Daisy are horrible clones. Richter’s only difference is that his holy water doesn’t have the fire property which matters in like 4 matchups and Daisy’s only difference is a minuscule difference in hurtbox size and idle animations. Even worse, Peach and Daisy used to have different turnips giving you a reason to actually prefer one over the other *and then Nintendo patched it out for literally no reason*. Some other gripes: Dark Samus only has a select few animation differences that, again, only matter in very specific situations. And the worst part? The assist trophy of it in Smash 4 had original moves that easily could’ve distinguished Samus and Dark Samus. Ganondorf doesn’t deserve to be a clone. He has literally 0 attachment to Falcon other than through Smash Bros and deserves an overhaul. Just give his current move set to Black Shadow if you want to spiritually keep the current version of Ganondorf in the game. The rest of the clones are fine enough, but the *seriously* missed the mark with Daisy and Richter.

Legend says that Ganondorf got done dirty by being a worse falcon

My favorite Clone is Dishonest Content

I think the echo fighter concept is the perfect way to introduce more character representation without needing completely unique characters. Honestly characters like Doc, Lucas, Isabelle, etc should've been echoes. The only thing I'd want more from them is the ones like Dark Samus and Daisy to get actual gameplay tweaks.

YOYO wake up babe a banger vid just dropped 😎.

Whats the song at 2:11? I recognize but can’t remember!!

mario and link: we have two clone characters marth: i have three clone characters

I love how Ken, the original clone fighter, ended up turning people's perception of clones from a negative to a positive. Because lets face it. The only reason the term "Echo Fighter" even exists is because of Ken and if was just plopped into the game with no further explanation, a lot of people would be angry. Especially since people have a crazy notion that 3rd party characters/slots are even more limited than the Nintendo IPs when it comes to being on the roster.

When are we getting Shadow, Sakurai???

Doc was my favorite in Melee

No more comment wars

4:00 I thought melee was made in 13 months which made its bugs famous

While I've never personally played a Zelda game, I've watched my different friends and KZfaqrs do play through and the argument on Ganondorf's moveset is...really dumb because that is how he fights. At best just give him a peach float and that yellow ball that bounces back. The sword oddly seems more outta left field. Like Sonic, people over complain about his moveset when really he just needs a boost side special. I also don't understand how people view Ganondorf as "low tier" he got buffed so much in Ultimate him (and Link) are S-Tier.

Thanks!

26:10 that makes a lot of sense I personally never really minded clones and was more in the anti fire emblem camp. I still think echo fighters should be more different from the original than just one attribute change. I think it largely unnecessary to have daisy be an echo rather than a skin the way she currently is and I share that feeling about dark samus and richter as well. I think dark pit is closer in having unique design he plays a differently from pit but shares a lot of the same attributes. I think it would be cool if echo's were designed to be unique like ken is or isabelle even though she isn't an echo. thoughts I had for how to accomplish this is daisy would have a unique neutral and up special, the turnip pull would have different odds similar to mr game and watch custom move in smash 4 extreme judge where the odds are reverse bell curve so daisy would pull both smiles and stich faces more often but less shocked turnips. the neutral special would be based on crystal smash she uses in mario strikers charged. the up special is based on her appearances in mario tennis series flower bed return where she jumps straight up and then floats in any direction for a bit. daisy would have a lot more animation reworks like f air, up air, n air, up tilt, up smash, f tilt. all of daisy's attacks would be worse at combo's with faster knockback scaling and instead daisy would be more scraping focused utilizing her mobility both on the ground and in the air to put opponents in disadvantage. stat changes would be faster ground speed, higher air mobility, heavier, 1-2 frames faster on most moves. richter has the moves from his game buffed and simon has the moves from his game buffed. richter's up B travels higher, his d tilt does more damage, his Down B should travels forward along the ground for a bit like in his games, his d air does higher knock back and gives him a bigger bounce. stat changes moves faster on the ground and has slightly better air mobility, lighter weight, most moves do less damage and have worse knockback. dark samus gets a float, neutral B charges a laser instead that does huge flinching damage like a weaker samus final smash the charge amount determines duration, side B shoots a bunch of little projectiles that flinch with low damage like lucario side B, down B turns into the morph ball and charges forward instead of placing a bomb. stats lighter, floatier, slower attacks by 2-3 frames, higher air mobility, faster ground speed, attacks do less knockback and hit stun but more damage. strategy is disrupting enemy movement without walling them out.

Echo who's there

The newest clones from ultimate barely have any changes

Is that an In God We Must t-shirt?

How did dark pit get in smash 4 but wolf didn’t?

10:50 ness and lucas share a lot of moves but their properties and thus strategy are very different you don't see lucas hit pk fire into f smash as often. as a person who plays lucas often plaing ness actually messes me up the thing that get's me most is their pk thunder travels at different speeds. though that's just a skill issue on my end.

People need to get over themselves in terms of the clones thing in general. Those that hate them. I think they add an extra layer of customization and new playstyles with similar movesets and introduce the player to newer faces that otherwise wouldve taken longer to add or not have been integrated altogether

They went the completely wrong way with Dr Mario. He should have felt like he was from Melee, not Brawl.

4:13 Only 2 years? More like 13 months, big difference,

“2 years” is putting it lightly, try THIRTEEN MONTHS

I hope future echos will be like chrom, dark Samus and daisy feel like they should have been alternate skins, would have loved to see a new attack or two for them 😿

This is how clones should actually be developed. But, honestly Smash Bros. needs to stop making all these corporate decisions with them by means of saving time in development. Some even have more source material which were completely disregarded. (Especially Ganondorf.)

They should put Donnel in Smash 6

I will forever be a doctor mario defender

I wish ganondorf had his moves more acurate but not his entire moveset changed the move that would stay the same with only slight stat differences or modifications would be side B, up tilt, the smash attacks, and down air. the rest of his moveset would attemp to be more accurate to his game appearances tennis neurtal B, peach's float, the down b would be the shock wave landing in OOT acting like bowser bomb with larger range, etc... #canonganon

I love Awakening. And I love Fates no matter what anyone says 😖!

What why falcon

For jigglypuff I think it was confirmed it was picked because they could reuse kirby animations

Its funny that all the clone characters of melee got better over the iterations, but Ganondorf had a huge dip from melee to brawl and was barely able to be better by ultimate, but still bottom 1

Wario should have been in Melee, then he wouldn't be fart-bikeman. And Ganondorf wouldn't be a bad Falcon... But yeah whatever, probably for the best for money I guess.

Ganondorf needs to have all new specials in the next game, give him dead man's volley, give him a float ability like from ocarina of time, just give him something new

Atp we gotta bully nintendo to add more sonic characters and material

I always liked having clones as for some of them it’s either they wouldn’t have been in Smash or they made it into Smash. I like how you pretty much covered every type of clone character, great video!

Not really. They made them even less unique than previous entries, but just put a label on them.

The fans determine how the tier list is without complete objectivity. Look at brawl for example Link is placed as the 4th worst character. Link in this game is nearly not as bad as what is shown on the tier list. It is inaccurate so is Ganons spot. Even though brawl Ganon is the weakest of the Ganons. In brawl he still had access to thunderstorming. Meaning he can just repeatedly autocancel his down airs for combos. Also Ganons dash attack in brawl is a ko move by itself. Regardless of where the enemy is on the stage the dash attack will send Ganon's opponent upwards. Which can at times overtake other lower tier fighters in a match. This overexaggerated badness of Link and Ganon in Brawl is because they lost their biggest tool kits between games. Link lost his very strong up b and Ganon lost his very strong wizards foot. As for Ganon in ultimate hes once again exaggerated as being very bad. Ganondorf is not the worst character. But its also true that he is a character that has less rewarding moves as the other heavy characters. Even Ganon's signature weight has been lessened in Ultimate. Zelda is also not nearly as bas as she is placed in brawl. Her upsmash alone does like 20% has a big hit box and can be chained repeatedly. Zelda can also spam the dins fire savagely in Brawl. The dins fire is way more rewarding in brawl than in later games and in meele.

0:05 And that honor of being the most disliked characters now goes to the Fire Emblem cast (jk I love fire emblem)

Melee almost ended Sakura's marriage too.

brawl wolf is obviously a clone, just look at his clunky animations

*melee was made in 13 months*

Alph still being a skin makes no fucking sense because the other Echo ate just glorified Skins. And I also lost my preferred Olimar colors.

Sakurai just change a little bit the moves animation and maybe some specials we don't need more glorified skins like daisy or lucina😂

Melee ganondorf should've been Black Shadow from F-zero 😔

Why do you keep calling Orochi Mario "doc"

Young Link is my personal least favorite character in the game, he has incredible moveset potential from Majora's mask. But he is literally a carbon copy of Old Link, except for fire arrows. So he has a more spammy, better moveset than original Link. And his moveset represents nothing new, they even gave him a lame copy and paste final smash instead of a new one like every other melee clone got (Pichu has the same one but it does damage to itself, which is a small change but more than Young Link got) Young Link is the worst designed character in the game in my opinion.

There going to be echoes in every smash bros game. Anyone who has a problem whit it need to grow up.