I think Alex Ross's "The Rest is Noise" is a great book to read if one wants to get inside contemporary music. I read it and found some composers that really resonate with me.

Well said! ... As Pierre Boulez put it: "Just listen with the vastness of the world in mind. You can't fail to get the message."

A banjo player named Riley Baugus provided an interesting perspective on the necessity of music once. He was on stage with players of stringed instruments from around the world (oud, sarod, bouzouki, etc), and said (roughly), "My ancestors led really difficult lives, doing almost nothing but hard work in an effort to survive; and I know that's also true for some of the other folks on stage with me. What I find striking is that the human need for music is so great that in spite of their hard circumstances, they still spent the time and effort to figure all of this out." The assent that appeared on the faces of the other musicians created a moment of international "he ain't lyin'."

The bit about suspending judgment is so crucial. This example isn't "contemporary classical," but when I first heard the music of Paul Simon (his solo stuff circa Graceland, I had already heard a few Simon and Garfunkel songs and liked them well enough) I hated it. I truly despised it in a way I haven't hated a song in many years. I thought it was amateurish, especially his habit of cramming many words into a single line and distorting the melody in the process. In fact, the reason I listened to any of those songs again was because they ticked me off, they frustrated me because I liked the instrumental, but hated the song over it. Then on the 4th or 5th listen, it all began to click. Fast-forward some years, and now Paul Simon is bar none my favorite songwriter, and my favorite album of his is The Rhythm of the Saints (which has some of the exact songs that baffled me on it). This has happened enough times (for artists including The Beatles, David Bowie, Death's first album, the entire genre of Hip Hop) that I assume any work of music that I don't enjoy, but that has any sort of devoted following, must have merit that hasn't "hit me right," for one reason or another. This revelation came before going to college to get a music degree and being exposed for the first time to "modernist" music, which served me well in approaching Schoenberg, Ives, Boulez, etc.

I found your channel thanks to a tweet by Jordan Peterson. I'm ashamed to admit I'm uneducated in music, and a lot of what you say in your analyses goes a bit over my head, but your passion and erudition make me believe it's worth the effort to learn. Thanks for making this channel - the internet at its best!

great video. i have but 2 bones to pick: 1. as for your reason to why people are open to abstract art but not music (because of the length of the piece) - how does that apply to ballet? in ballet the modern style has successfully replaced the classical, meaning that the mainstream style is the modern and the classical being more of a niche'. in art music that has not happened. 19th century music still reigns supreme to this day. 2. i think (as a composer myself) there are inherent problems with the contemporary music world, the biggest one being it is so academic and entirely independent from the taste of the audience. There for composers make little to no effort trying to please the audience, and there for - the audience is mostly unpleased (surprisingly enough..).

I am a great lover of the music of Stockhausen, Cage, Feldman, Glass, Varese, Zappa, etc. In approaching this seemingly "difficult" music you must not expect anything. If you react to it negatively, try to stop yourself from "making a box". Do not jump to sudden conclusions on the composition you are listening to. Research the theory behind it and the composer's philosophy.

this can be applied to any art form. Great advice, and thank you for your articulation.

this is not only an approach to contemporary music but to art of every kind. i came up with pretty similiar approaches regarding literature. you could also sum it up as: value art and put effort into it. and most of the time you will understand not only the subject matter better but also yourself. art can be a mirror for self reflection and a medium for projection, wether you are on the receiving end or on the production side. this pragmatic arguement, is in my eyes, the one, which can start excitment for contemporary art and the willingness to spend effort.

How about a suggested listening list?

I just saw Andrew Norman's Play and Matthias Pintscher's Idyll live last night and tonight I'm headed to hear Ligeti's Violin Concerto... hearing a lot of contemporary music in succession is actually very fun and refreshing. I can't imagine how my life would be different if my city had a large, well-funded performing organism devoted to post-1950s classical music. One can dream! Did you see you got a shout-out on Alex Ross's blog in December? Congrats on your growing notoriety! Count me among your first 1000 subscribers - may you have many more.

Thank u. Pretty simple ideas but me never noticed and thought about deeply before ❣️

Concerning your second point - there are several good reasons why people would prefer music, literature, art made 200 years ago: 1) The biggest one is that they stood the test of time and became classics. History has filtered the chaff and we're left with the best examples and masterpieces in these arts. 2) For ideological purposes. Art comes hand in hand with philosophy and is influenced by the era it's created in. It's easy to understand why some people feel disillusioned by the current state of affairs or of humanity as a whole and they turn back to the romanticised past. Also music and the arts had a much greater cultural impact back then (among aristocracy and bourgeois), while the mainstream media and pop culture reign supreme today. How is it a better time to be a composer today? Sure, you can influence a few people in your circle, but art isn't the page turner that it was before. It has been replaced by technology, consumerism and progressivism. 3) Aesthetics. This one is somehow linked with the previous point. There was a time when western art music was deemed "listenable" and beautiful by a broad audience for its more natural treatment of harmony while it still exhibited great artistic depth, complexity of form and compositional technique appreciated by the selected few. It's in human nature to be attracted to beauty and repulsed by ugliness and most people's aesthetics are pretty straightforward and unsubtle. There are more points to be made, but that's all I can think of right now.

I could hear you talk for hours, thank you for explaining all of these ways to approach music Samuel ✨✨

Wonderful suggestions. Thank you!

Mr Andreyev, I love your Boulezian fire and persuasion. I am sure you will not consider this a light-hearted comment. Today’s artists - I’m in the poetry section - need to fight laziness, stultification, drug haze and absence of ethics if they want to somehow preserve the fire of tradition, as Mahler used to say. I love the great music of the last 67 years (my life) and am planning to listen very attentively to La pendule de profil, and more than one time. While having to justify, more than once, the way you do for music, the sophistication of today’s and tomorrow’s poetry, I have been confronted many times with the following counter-argument: (for music:) “Yes you are right, we have to be interested first of all in today’s music, but today’s music is NOT the emotionally painful, intellectual, pretentious music you love, but Michael Douglas!” (for poetry:) “Yes you are... [etc.] but today’s poetry is NOT the emotionally painful, intellectual, pretentious palimpsest you love but RAP & HIP HOP & SLAM!”... and then, you see, I understand that the struggle for subtlety and complexity will have to include the political struggle that helps steering, again, society towards hard work, intelligence, sensitivity and ethics... and, the individual, towards psychoanalytical and -synthetical depth and what almost amounts to an experience of conversion. A good question that may start the experience of metanoïa in young people today is maybe: “When you admire, what do you admire?”

This is an awesome channel. Thanks and keep the good work!

Thanks for your enthusiasm! I will follow your advice especially on the need to know the music of one's own time. You are right. I love Bach and Shostakovich and know hardly anything about the music of today. Your earlier videos on some 'modern' composers made me see their craftsmanship ( so, no morons there ..). Heard some of your own pieces, which were hard for me, but I will try to really listen to them better. Please keep up the good work.

Such good advice. I borrowed a CD of Elliot Carter's Symphonia & Clarinet Concerto from the library & on first listen while driving I thought much of it sounded aimless yet bombastic, with some redeeming movements. An hour or so later in a better listening mood I started really liking the entire CD.

Thank you so much Samuel for the precious information you let us share with you. With or without the (electric) guitar, with or without jazz, everyday now I meditate on one definite subject : what could be (and how would sound) french modern music in the XXIth century if it came to existence for everyone to see ? The unique approach and love with which you presented John French and, following that, Zoot Horn, led me straight to subscribe to your channel. I feel I'm only at the begining though, and the 64-year-old that I am is going to learn a whole lot more with you ! A big thank you again for that. Peace - (greetings from Paris)

Great video, as always. I have a somewhat unique entry into my love of classical music. I came to love classical music via my love for prog-rock. But not the usual bands that people think about when they think about prog (YES, King Crimson, ELP, Genesis, etc), who were all pretty much influenced by the early 20th century classical composers. My interest in classical music came from my love of a sub-genre of progressive music known loosely as "avant-prog". These are bands (Thinking Plague, Henry Cow, Aranis, Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, and many more) that are specifically influenced by the composers of the mid-20th century, and later. So, when I first started listening to: the 2nd Viennese School composers, Elliott Carter, Charles Wouorinen, Joan Tower, Berio, Harrison Birtwhistle, George Perle, Thea Musgrave, etc, etc, etc, my familiarity with: constantly changing time signatures, dissonance, poly-rhythms, lack of a tonal center, etc, etc, was not a complete shock to me, since I was already used to it from the above sub-genre of progressive music. I am not saying that I did not have any "learning curve", but I certainly did not have a knee jerk negative reaction, as those that only listen to "common practice". Since I came to classical music through: modern, avant-garde and contemporary composers, I find (to my ears) earlier era composers to be: predictable, cliche sounding, and to be honest, just plain boring. And it's not for lack of trying. I often listen to the major, pre-20th century composers, with an open mind, with the hopes that it will click with me. So far, no luck.

Yes, it's a very rich and rewarding adventure, one that never ends, and the payoff is utterly sublime! I'm always wondering when I listen to a piece, how did the composer come up with these amazing ideas, and how did the performers come to be so skilled as to execute those ideas with such passion and precision? And they didn't even have the benefit of recorded performances!

Great talk! You did articulate what I'm trying to say for years! Sharing it with my students!

Just discovered your videos. They're great. Looking forward to watching all of them.

Got here from your conversation with Prof J.P. Really neat stuff.

Great content!

Great Video! I guess You could make a series of videos, something like "13 steps to contemporary music" and show some aspects of traditional music being substituted. Like the relation of time and music in Debussy and Glass, the rhythmic innovations of Stravinsky etc.

Very interesting, thanks!

I have been listening to contemporary music for over 40 years. I started with a John Cage's piece for prepared piano. It was the second vinyl I bought after I was born. I think John Cage's pieces for prepared piano is suitable for beginners.

You should be more well known Mr. Andreyev, your videos are amazing and you communicate your knowledge in a very eloquent way, you must be a teacher too!

Thank you for this videos and your channel. My view is that Rap music is just as important as Ellington as Schoenberg, as Reich or today's music.

Hi Samuel can you suggest college or any universities for music composition?

i would love to hear you discuss merzbow's materpiece "pulse demon " one of my favorite works of the entire genre of japanese noise music.

You should do a video on how to approach contemporary music performance for the first time

Looking back, I seem to have listened to more of the music of Karlheinz Stockhausen, John Cage and Philip Glass than that of most of the really popular "classical" composers. I think it's to do with my attraction to the "avant-garde".

Thank you!

I was into Punk and the Punk ethos is that the music of the moment is most importance.

I don’t know if you still read new comments on your old videos. But I’ve been reading about this whole Metamodernism stuff (apparently it should proceed Postmodernism) Any ideas if this will ever (in retrospect) be applied to the contemporary classical music of our age? An example might be that Amy Deutscher will be considered one of the first Metamodernist Composers 😂

Thank you for the video. It was a pleasure to watch, as always. As someone who studies contemporary poetry, I often run into the questions you address here. I must say, however, that I don't quite agree with your second point. I certainly feel that there's a pressing need to engage with and comprehend contemporary art--but I don't think it amounts to everyone's obligation, or that everyone ought to try and enjoy contemporary offerings. There are plenty of reasons why contemporary art is inherently more difficult. To begin with, it's _new_ (i.e. it hasn't yet been processed and incorporated into the existing cultural consciousness) and so is touched with the alien. Novelty is anxiety provoking. Your experience and training provide you with tools that lessen this anxiety, but a piece like Boulez's Sonatine is liable to appear, from the first listen, as a much more intimidating beast to a naive listener than it would to you or me. What's more, the category of "art from 200 years ago" has an unfair advantage: it's been pared down by history, and (for the most part) only the most valuable pieces have survived. If one wants to learn a thing or two about an art, it seems most efficient to start with the pieces of it that have already proven to be valuable. Why begin with the most difficult and intimidating category? Of course, some people are going to seek out contemporary art, whether or not they've first been versed in its predecessors. And good for them! But that doesn't seem to be who this video is addressed to. Rather, it seems (at least to me) to be addressed people asking "(why) should I bother with contemporary music?" Personally, if someone were to ask me if they should bother trying to "get" contemporary poetry, I would simply say "no--don't force yourself to do something you don't enjoy." If someone develops an interest in contemporary art (as I think inevitably happens for many people engaged with an art), and comes to me to ask for tools to help begin their journey, that's a different story--but I would never advise someone to "cultivate an interest in the music of their time" if they weren't so inclined. For someone who isn't devoting their life to an art, I don't think there's anything wrong with being satisfied with a few gems of old. Not everyone needs to dip their toes in these waters--and for those who do need to...I don't think they need the cajoling.

In my opinion one of the most important things really is, relax, don't think too much, don't judge until you spent hours in contact with it and similar styles. Also, musical education in my experience really was important cause I learned to hear the notes and the structures and the orchestration. We'd be lying if we said that that kind of knowledge and experience doesn't help considerably

A reason as to why someone might find something made in the distant past more interesting that something made today is that an individual might they might be aesthetically/subjectively drawn to a particular element of past music. I agree, people should have a degree of familiarity with the cultural artefacts of their time, but how individuals weigh their interests is a whole different animal. After all, music of the distant past has not been explored to its fullest potential and people might like that exploration, and if they thus dedicate their interests to that over contemporary music I don't see a problem.

Thoughtful.

Although I am just a fan of art music without any kind of musical knowledge, I get the impression that the vast majority of contemporary art music composers only know the musical procedures and composers of the 20th and 21st centuries and do not know or want to learn nothing of Bach, Mozart, Brahms or Renaissance polyphony (preferring even commercial music without artistic pretensions such as pop or rock), and in this way it is really difficult to write music of a quality comparable to that of geniuses from the past.

To illustrate an example of my general sentiments and this will be overgeneralized but as an example: Webern's Op.27 vs Op.27 No.2....I appreciate and I am fascinated by the Webern piece. I appreciate, I'm fascinated about and I love and am grateful for Beethoven's piece. If Webern's opus 27 disappeared, I could go on with life without feeling deprived. If the Moonlight Sonata disappeared, I'd feel something essential was missing. Call me a simpleton, I guess.

great video's man, are you planning on making something about messiaen?

I just came across your channel yesterday. Having watched the Webern video and now this one, I really appreciate your insightful and friendly approach to guiding viewers into a better understanding of things unfamiliar. Would you consider giving us your thoughts on Copland's book "What to Listen for in Music"? Is it a good primer?

Question, considering that music has been around since men had mouths to sing, and cultures have enjoyed their music, and their musical traditions, couldn't we then give more value to pop music because the web of mass media is a key to the zeitgeist? I think this is a great video, and I think it'd be great if contemporary classical music had more ears and had more financial support, but I'm still wondering your feelings on this question.

Hi Samuel. I've been playing around with sound for years on and off. Mostly electronic music composition. I started playing the cello 2 years ago and I've been studying music theory and composition. I've lost interest in making beat music. I listen to choral music as well as a lot of drone stuff like stars of the lid and Winged victory for the sullen and other artists like Arvo part and John Tavener who is my favorite composer. I also like Leyland Kirby or The Caretaker. I'm also a huge fan of Aphex Twin especially DrukQs which was the craziest music I heard at the time and that was a gateway into lots of other genres. I started writing music in the traditional way not so long ago and I'm learning a lot and I'm still composing through a computer with cello, harmonica, guitar and synths. I'm trying to blend my love for drone/atmospheric music with more classical vibes Since I'm kind of new to composing properly what advice can you give me? What do you think is the best way for me to learn? Should I go back and study the classical forms? I have a basic understanding of harmony and structure but I get annoyed with myself because I think there are things I should study first but I never know where to begin! Thanks Samuel and your compositions are great! Keep the faith! :-)

In short: Be humble.

A great deal of what you say presupposes a person wants to partake in music as a primary activity and devote effort to it. Most people "listen" to music while doing other things, or as a soundtrack to accompany something they consider more important. _I_ want to sit down and focus on music, but very few people do. Even other musicians. I generally refuse to use music as "sonic wallpaper", but this also means I spend far less time with music on in general because to me, it's either the point or it's a distraction. (Distractions are fine when doing the dishes or cleaning the house or whatever.) If I do need it as wallpaper, it's going to be familiar and well-understood because I won't have the mental capacity to properly devote to anything new.

What would you say to a young composer hoping to understand the 21st century thus far. I've been a massive enthusiast of the second Viennese school and most music in the 20th century for a while now and I feel that the music I write shadows that era far too much.

Man, you are golden. Thank you for all the efforts!!

In essence : Pay attention to details ! value and meaning will reveal themselves.

Great!!!

"She dances in the wind " "Chasing the dope Dragon " by Tony villodas composer

One has to respect creativity first as you say with the investment of every civilization into music .That alone hints at the depth of sound as meaning. It takes a lot to get "now" in terms of historyof economics,architecture,sociologyetc. so noone should expectthe music of NOW to instantly be admirable -if they are not already familiar with the trends and feelings of the present day I love Alex Ross reviews in the New York times . I loved his thick and eminently easily readable "The Rest is Noise " .I like Andreyev's commentary cuz it ain't elitist as I just read someone on here who seems to thnk Andreyev is makin "asserions "or is only talking about a small group of composers. No, he could be talking about CardiB or Vanessa Redgrave singing in her bathroom.Im dun wit dat .CaptainBeefheart is as beer on dee road as it gets ad stockhausen ain't bout no damn museum music. I also loved thomas Wolfe the Painted word but realize part of his thesis that you have to know some perceptions and theory about now and the last 150 years or the art of today is lost on you and you can't experience it or see it (mostly) but his big point was it was all conceptional and only existed on the page . I never liked this idea even if it was true and it is .Ives , Varese , even Messiaen and sensational eye and ear shocking -Boulez I didn't really get or even hear. I wasn't a goodlistener until my mid-30's (composers know how imortant this is ) and Wuorinen,Scelsi,Carteretc had no idea and these records sat in my home for at least a decade till I woke up after reading thousands of pages about many things and best of all- when I started to try to make these things myself . ,Ligeti was easy as was William Bolcolm ,Glass, Reich (minimalism is pretty easy even though the processes Adams and others use are dizzyingly thought out and sometimes complex . At first all the stuff I spent money on even Tarkovsky ,Nicolas roeg movies - Ipretended to need and like had no idea what Id just been given . didn't know how to approach these things Good and bad don't seem to me to have much distinction in contemporary architecture, music, painting , sculpture etc. you bring to it what you know .Anyway thankyou ! I type cuz I wanna talk about these things and this is oneof the forums where I can . I need to share my music on fbook groups maybe that would shut me up . ok let's go find out about actus Tragicus. Here I am 50 years old and finding out about stuffIve been reading about for 50 years ! Andreyev you and Ross and Michitako Kutami I cant remember her ame al critics and many reviewers like Andrew Sarris and Paula and a few others least of all pretentious Frenchies like Barthes mean the world to me . you helpe me see what United States educations woefully miss . Life is Art and its appreciation . tori amos know s this . If you create the notion will cum to ya some day . Let's hear it fo' using slang . I want to get rid of all the pretensious sheet. Problem is being cool and using slang and ghetto talk is ust another elitist box that excludes people . Self- Sacrifice not Self-gain is the only way we can survive-ghandi and many others see that . Matthias Pintscher was in miami 3 years ago and you didnt have to know anything to be thrilled . Andreyev I hope you come to Miamior florida one day . when I get my doctorate in music (one day ) I will write a piece thaning all the critics and reviewers and anlystes who gave my life purpose and color ! I'm not ashamed to say I enjoy the writing about Flaubert and Joyce more than the actual thing itself ! A few like Baldwin ,JohnBarth ,Calvino , Virginia Woolf,Williams,Beckett pleases me as much and grows inside of me . Enug .

...or listen to "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima". Instantly compelling. A great introduction to non-traditional Western music.

How do you feel about the relationship between computers and ('popular') music? Access to sophisticated music tools (legally or otherwise) has changed the landscape quite dramatically - I think the next 5-10 years will reveal many an Amon Tobin in the woodworks. The palette for sample sources has also increased exponentially. Although, of course, there are a lot of mediocre things out there, they have a purpose in quickly consolidating cliche - perhaps decreasing the time it takes to go through those revolutionary processes you mentioned in your chat with Jordan. There is something really cool about the bedroom beatmaker! One of my favourite examples of which: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nMh1f9qemLm1nZc.html

hey I heard you on Jordan Petersons podcast, besides yourself what other composers would you recommend for me? Thanks God bless.

great

This is brilliant and I think that the "prepare to be underwhelmed on the first listen" comment is SO IMPORTANT. Even when it comes to Beethoven or Mahler or Mozart I will always find the first listen to be extremely hollow.

You have a good argument. I found your video from Jonathan Blow's tweet and I was surprised that someone talks about this issue with contemporary classical music (or art music). I myself feel that contemporary classical music is terrible, but that's just my feelings about it. In many ways I just see that saying people should get used to it isn't really the idea of art in my opinion. I've listened many times the same contemporary pieces and they haven't really appealed to me even after second listening. Recently I have started to research the history of music an I see the contemporary music as the reason why classical music hasn't appealed to a larger audience. Maybe contemporary music should have much wider range and not stick with only one style as it has done before. There is so much more to the eras of classical music that have already been to discover. I don't mean that classical music should go entirely to 100% tonal and popularly appealing, but the range of contemporary music feels somewhat limited compared to the possible audiences . It's useless to start shouting in the internet, but I just want to give my opinion and also hear yours :)

This general advice work not only in the realm of music, but in other fields as well. I see some Petersonians here in the comments. To all them: take this advice and apply it to philosophies and philosophers that you dislike, particularly in the fields of feminism, postmodernism, marxism and critical analysis.

I did like. Although it fails a bit in Sagan's 3rd rule of the kit.

i strongly agree about cultivating an interest in music of your time. there's a fascination among so many musicians in the old old stuff and while it's totally worth being reverent of, studying, building off of... it's a fundamental difference in mindset to me and i absolutely feel a duty toward the contemporary and have always felt pushback from my peers. great commentary, samuel!

"Oh yes, well, if you ever DO think of a tune, please don't forget to tell me will you old chap?" Ralph Vaughan Williams when he was handing back a score to a young composer which was completely devoid of melody.

I'll give a reason why someone today would be more interested in music 200 years ago. It's the same reason why we read books written with languages that are more or less the same 200 years ago.

super !

I loved contemporary classical music right off. No trouble there. Actually, some of the traditional classical I find much harder to like - melodramatic and too predictable. I'm disappointed. I was hoping you would show us how to approach it as a composer, not as a listener. Could I request a part two where you share your insights on how to compose in an environment where no traditional rule is mandatory?

after hearing this I feel like I don't know how to listen to music lol I've never really listened to anything other than metal rap pop all that stuff are you suggesting I might like music like is Bach or something could you tell me a piece to listen too please

You're Brilliant! As a Moron composer, I would elect you to represent our subspecies 😆

I guess that your point is contemporary music is hard to approach at first. But it seems to me that you give no compelling explanation in why anyone should endure it so that it become likable later. How should I approach contemporary music? If the answer is to suspend any negative or critical thought and blindly believe whatever is thrown at me, then it's just not my thing.

Samuel, I love your content! I just found your channel (via your Beefheart analysis and interviews), and am wondering what your opinion is on the song "Kicked it in the Sun", by the band Built to Spill. It is rock music, but it is quite unique (in my opinion), as it has an odd song structure and a few distinctly different parts. The change around the 3:20 mark is particularly interesting to me, and I just wondered what someone with more formal music education would think about it. I've included the link to the song if you're interested and have time to check it out! The piece is just over 7 1/2 minutes long : kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qapkidde0bKRaYE.html Have a good day!

Thank you for this video, but putting everything aside and talking about what you said at the beginning of this video, I would like to hear what you think: I have been recently thinking, what if the world, the humanity, the history defines pop music (including rock/jazz/film-music...) as "the music of our time". What makes us (contemporary/modern "fine" musicians) represent 'our' time. I mean... honestly, the world nowadays revolves around commercial music and even the term 'contemporary/modern' music is being used to describe songs that recently published.

I'd be very interested in your commentary on a piece by Scriabin. BTW, I hated Shakespeare's Richard II the first time I saw it; didn't get it at all. Now it's my favorite of all his plays.

I like how you don't look at the camera. Looking at the camera creeps me out too.

While I'm not opposed to it, I do think that modernism in music challenges people more than in other fields. William Thomson wrote a book called "Schoenberg's Error," in which he says, "Eliminating tonality from music was a more wrenching matter for musicians than eliminating linear perspective seems to have been for painters, or abandoning the concept of cosmic ether was for physicists." I think that straight music - not joined to poetry by setting words, not to be danced to, not as part of a film or play but just instrumental music by itself - is rather unpopular because it's so abstract, and that's true even of the most popular pieces of classical music like the Beethoven Fifth Symphony or the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. Only about 3% of the population are much interested even in those pieces, so to further remove recognizable melody and familiar harmonic sounds achieves a degree of abstraction that almost no one is willing to bear. Schoenberg said that he thought his twelve-tone system would ensure to superiority of German music into future. Something like that. But instead what happened, just a generation later, was that much simpler forms of popular music came to predominate. Bob Dylan is to be taken seriously as a musical genius and not just a pop star. It seems that the average person is much more willing to entertain challenging modernist or otherwise experimental styles in film or literature than in music.

How long do i have to focus, and how hard, before I start to reckon I'm getting value from modern music ? How long until I'm getting enough value that I figure all the effort has been worthwhile? Are there any quantitative studies? My guess is the answer is different for different people. I'd bet some of it is genetic. How long should I wait for the light to come on before I go back to doing things I like?

Though I respect your work, I want to make a critical comment here... For me there are some glaringly problematic presuppositions underlying the notion that people should "cultivate an interest in the music of your time". On the face of it this makes plenty of sense. Art is a living thing, and living artists should be supported by the broader culture. Artists have important things to say about our world, and as intangible as their message often is, people should engage with those artists actively. But there's a problematic assumption that the category of "music of your time" is a very clear one, and namely that it refers to a small subset of the musical culture known variously as "contemporary", "serious", or "new" music, among many other vague terms used to describe the modern manifestation of notation oriented western art music. Basically, your call for people to "cultivate an interest in the music of your time" is really a call to cultivate an interest in this tiny subculture of music-making that you deem to be legitimate and substantive art. Do you really intend to exclude all other music being made today from this category? I would think not, and yet that's precisely what you seem to be doing. This kind of elitism seems to be fairly common in the world of academic composition. People tend not to openly dismiss other forms of contemporary music, but the implicit dismissal is often palpable nonetheless. It's as if being shunned by the general public has led "modern composers" to foster an unconscious resentment and contempt for any kind of music other than their own. I recognize that there are many individuals that don't fall prey to this (I would guess that you are among them), but this worldview seems to be an undeniable part of the culture of new music. The assumption is, "our music is more important than all other kinds being made today". Whether it's due to the intellectual rigor, technical complexity, or historical pedigree of this culture, people within it have no problem harboring this often unconscious elitist attitude. This is sustained in part due to the fact that modern classical music is supported almost exclusively by institutions of higher education, and as such it is susceptible to the cultural bubble that universities tend to create. We live in a period of unprecedented artistic diversity and creativity. By an immense margin, there are more people making art today then at any other point in history. If you're going to make the claim that only one sub-culture of music making is capable of producing what you refer to as "the important cultural artifacts of the time", at least make it openly and be prepared to back it up with some rigorous aesthetic theories. As a composer myself, I would welcome such attempts. They would be a breath of fresh air compared to the relativism that typifies the intelligentsia today. Even if you don't try to make that extreme claim, it seems to me you have an obligation to defend the value of modern classical music as such, as opposed to simply falling in line with the doctrine of the day and avoiding that challenging task. Art needs intelligent and compelling apologists, especially when it is of a more difficult and less entertainment oriented variety. This is why on the whole, I enjoyed your video. But it seems like you skirted past some of the most critical issues by making this implicit assumption about the status of modern classical music. You seem to have eclectic tastes and interests, and your intelligence is clearly formidable, so I would really love to hear your thoughts on this. Thank you for your time.

4:16 How do you people fell about this? I'm not from the music field (I'm a film guy, or at least trying to be) so I have no idea, but don't think I would have the nerve to tell people they need to watch my 2 hour film 10 times in order to grasp all of the nuances they missed... Specially if they didn't like it in the first place... Like how do you know it is worth their time? I mean there is no rule that definitely says what art is good or bad, only what you like or dislike... So to say: "You need to engage with this artist or artistic movement until you find something you enjoy about it!" feels like taking the whole thing backwards... I mean sure, if you are an artist yourself it is absolutely essential to engage art formcritically as he posed later in 7:43, but can we really ask that from the public? That they spend an inordinate amount of time engaging with material that doesn't matter to them while setting aside material that does? Movies that might beincoherent andfull of plot cul-de-sacs

I am not sure if my question is relevant here. But I would like to learn to appreciate/understand more about contemporary/modern orchestra music. I always find those pieces composed that have no melody, just random sounds and notes (I am sure there is intention in the notes but for me it is just random), even electronics (like Nymphea by Kaija Saariaho). My question is how do I start to come about to appreciate these pieces? Since they're so different from classical pieces or any music we know

Sam, if I'm constantly listening to new music - listening it to death for a day or two then moving on - am I playing a loser's game? Is novelty a poor substitute for depth of appreciation? P.S. This is one of my favourite pieces of music - maybe you'll enjoy it! grahamkartna.bandcamp.com/album/ideation-deluxe

Some good Points! You will find some similar ideas at my Composer vlog. Feel free to check it out.

Minimal music is the only work that you can listen to once and see how good it is. In that respect, only works that you know are suitable for listening to concerts.

Nice presentation. I agree with many points, most importantly the repetition factor. When I first heard Webern, Schoenberg, et al, I was turned off, but upon repeated listening, understood what these composers were striving to do. For me, Webern is the master of the serial idiom. I don't particularly like the term atonal as it tends to sound too "anti-musical" when someone attempts to explain the term, and frequently causes division. There are many composers out there today, especially in academia, that are rarely heard, and this is a shame. On the other hand, we have equally brilliant composers of movies and the stage that are writing great scores that deserve to be recognized and showcased on the concert level as well. Perhaps the biggest issue is the listening public. How do we get our younger listeners into the concert halls ? Part of the issue is "instant gratification" with the 3 minute song. If the music doesn't hit the mark within that time frame then they don't value it. I suppose it will always be like this, however. Great art is often recognized after the composers and artists are not around to reap the deserved benefits of their works.

Hi Samuel, Contemporary classical music has "something to be gotten out of it". First, I'd like to say that this means nothing, since it goes for virtually anything, but second, I'd really like you to give me three or more examples of w h a t you can get out of it. I personally am looking for - exusez le mot - beauty, and affection of my emotions (music that makes me happy, or sad), or music that makes me want to dance. I'm also looking for memorable melodies, harmonies and rhythms. I'm n o t looking for music that requires background information in order to understand what the composer is trying to do. I want the music to tell me that message directly (not necessarilly in an easy way, but still independently of other information sources. After all, why would you need music instead of a written article to be cognitively stimulated?). Anyway, please give me some examples of what you can get out of contemporary classical music. Another question (that may be the same one): does contemporary classical music ever make the hairs on your arms stand up? Does it ever move you to tears? Thank you, Micha

You're just asking for it now :)

I personally think the reason people have issues listening to contemporary music is because it is different from just about every type of music from the past. Your music for example seems like a bunch of random sounds and musical effects played randomly without any meaning. I don't feel any emotion coming from the music, except for a mood that those sounds create (which would be fine for a movie score, but not as a stand alone work). The piece could be making a statement, but music is supposed to reward the listener for listening. I could drop a stick on a snare drum randomly, and throw a random percussion instrument in there too. But what are those sounds doing except... just being there?

One must go to it, and not expect it to come to you.

specifically cultivating an interest in music “of your time” because it’s “of your time” is as arbitrary as whenever you were born. taste should be independent of chronology.

I think it's a little funny when people say they listen to just about everything. But what they mean is American music. Hip hop, country, rock, pop, reggae, metal, edm and maybe a little jazz. But when I tell people I listen to just about everything I explain further, swing, progressive, eastern European gypsy, cultural music, Like Japanese, Chinese, Brazilian, middle eastern, African....etc etc Plus saying different time periods.... Then you can see it in their face, Oh shit, I hardly listen to any kind of music at all. There is so much music out there, American modern music is such a small piece. But it's also a culmination of all music just like the country itself. But it sucks it's been mixed together to create only what it has, those main genres I first listed. There are little gems randomly that use a bunch of advanced techniques, harmony or crazy prog ideas. But it's not what's popular.

I used to listen to various genres of music, including classical music, but now I only listen to contemporary music voluntarily. Music of other genres seems to get tired.

Wow. The guy Blow linked to talks a lot like Blow.

With covid, write that orchestra ensemble pieces. "Threnody for Frank Zappa " I wrote this uncommissioned work cuz that's what composers do.

How to approach it is easy, just take a seat, there are plenty of empty seats at a contemporary music concert, you pretty much have your pick.

what's the difference between art and scam?

contemporary music - like anything - is MUCH HARDER than things which already have a very structured template (like any cliché - i.e. popular music etc)

Do you think that the function of music has changed completely? I am giggling as I imagine the musicians of more ancient times ( thousands or just a few hundred years ago) first stand in front of their audience and try to convince them that they have to listen a few times befire they decide whether they like it or not or encourage their hapless human contemporaries that they must make an effort in their listening..... hmmmmm....maybe I am judt a stick-in-the-mud Bach fanatic!

I sometimes wish I could comprehend what thoughtful, intelligent people see in contemporary art music, such as the pieces and composers listed below. I sometimes go to channels like yours in the hope that someone can explain it, or that I will find something that I can like. Just now I set myself to listen to Ives' Fourth Symphony on your recommendation - and found I simply couldn't. Bewilderment is part of it, but so is revulsion. I know it sounds melodramatic, but 7 minutes into it rising physical nausea forced me to cut and run. I simply couldn't stand any more. The occasional moments of recognisable music were instantly drowned by something monstrous and hideous. It was like watching an almighty book-burning; like watching a wrecking ball smashing Chartres Cathedral. So I waited for the reaction to subside, waded in again, listened again, had it happen again, got out, went back, listened again. And again. I tried, I really tried. I told myself, this is simply music that uses a different vocabulary to the one I'm used to. I can get used to this, too. Only I can't.

As a composer I hate to say it but most of my idols are dead white male composers: Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Schnittke, JS Bach.