Ha! what a funny way to get it

Which piece was this?

@@995apoorva Probably one of the Fantasias, but don't remember now.

And violin!

Viola. Lol

+BragionERDE That's wonderful! And welcome to the channel!

Obi Vincent

Where in the world do you find recorders in Nigeria?

It's not a matter of what is "proper" or what "should be played"; it's a simple matter of physics. Vibrato is the variation in pitch, tremolo is the variation in intensity (or volume). On the recorder, the pitch is determined by the distance from the labium (or embouchure hole) to the first open hole. That distance simply *cannot be changed* while playing (short of pulling joints further apart, or whatever). A slide trombone can produce vibrato because the length of the air column can be changed with the slide. A cellist can produce vibrato by the finger pressing the string against the neck rolling up and down the neck, changing the length of the vibrating string. But a recorder simply cannot produce vibrato; physics won't allow it.

@@bricology You are forgetting air speed. Recorders actually have very limited dynamic range, the air stream needs to be at a certain speed for the instrument to play in tune and thus they play at a relatively set volume level. If the airstream slows down too much they go flat, too fast they go sharp. You can change the airspeed to bend the pitch up and down. Thus this actually is Pitch Vibrato.

@@bricology What Michael said. You reek of musical ignorance and scientific arrogance. Grab a standard soprano recorder. Finger a first-octave G. Blow into the recorder. Now blow harder - the sound gets louder but also sharper. Now blow slower - the sound gets more quiet and weak but also more flat. The recorder can indeed produce a pitch vibrato, as is demonstrated in this very video. Yes, it is both a volume vibrato and a pitch vibrato at the same time: with this technique you can't make the note sharper without also making it louder. Nevertheles, what you said before is completely false: the recorder *can* do pitch vibrato. Furthermore, this is the same way in which flute players produce vibrato. And I've never heard anyone claim that the flute is incapable of producing pitch vibrato. So where the hell is this coming from, bricology?

@@asukalangleysoryu6695 wrote "Grab a standard soprano recorder. Finger a first-octave G. Blow into the recorder. Now blow harder - the sound gets louder but also sharper. Now blow slower - the sound gets more quiet and weak but also more flat." So what you're saying is that "vibrato" with the recorder is relative to dynamics. Blow harder: pitch sharpens; blow softer: pitch flattens. That should be very easy to test using a decibel meter to see if the SPL changes, along with the pitch while producing a steady tone. Indeed, *I've already done this, while watching this video. There is no point in the video where a sustained note shows a rhythmic variance in pitch without a variance in amplitude on my tuner.* "Furthermore, this is the same way in which flute players produce vibrato. And I've never heard anyone claim that the flute is incapable of producing pitch vibrato. " Those flautists who can actually produce vibrato do it through changing their embouchure; by moving their lip or their tongue relative to the labium, which alternately lengthens and shortens the air column and thus, the pitch. A flautist's mouth is directly interfacing with the labium. A recorder player's mouth is removed from the labium (or fipple) and cannot affect it to produce vibrato. Most flautists can easily produce *tremolo*; the conflation of those two terms is the cause of most of these misunderstandings. Here's what the text "Vibrato and Tremolo Analysis" by Antonio DiCristofano & Amanda Manaster says: "To create vibrato on a flute, the player must adjust the placement of their tongue within their mouth rapidly." ( www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjeg42v1dfpAhX4FTQIHdnkBgoQFjAQegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcourses.physics.illinois.edu%2Fphys406%2Fsp2017%2FStudent_Projects%2FSpring16%2FA_DiCristofano_A_Manaster_Physics_406_Final_Report_Sp16.pdf&usg=AOvVaw12ebiO2KGfl2kgIJIAZ4dB ) Deborah Ribelin, in her textbook "An Overview of Pedagical Techniques: Vibrato for the Flute" breaks down how vibrato may be produced on the flute. She makes a clear distinction between "tremolo", the ornament produced by rhythmically varying the *amplitude* but *not* the *pitch* , and "vibrato", the ornament produced by rhythmically varying the *pitch* , but *not* the *amplitude* . www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjeg42v1dfpAhX4FTQIHdnkBgoQFjAPegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsuepress.columbusstate.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1074%26context%3Dtheses_dissertations&usg=AOvVaw3hIlWDoeD1WEJ-2-MObXNv So does Dolmetsch in their book on vibrato, where they go into detail about how vibrato may be produced with the flute: by the interaction of the mouth with the labium, or by the interaction of the fingers with the holes/keys (as with tremblement and flattement): www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjeg42v1dfpAhX4FTQIHdnkBgoQFjARegQIBxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dolmetsch.com%2FVibrato_pictures.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1AG5q8t0bBsBscdTJEaBBy Not convinced? All anyone would need to do to prove me wrong is to have an SPL meter and tuner side-by-side, and to produce a tone that rhythmically varies in pitch, but not amplitude. As I've said, I've already done that, and have seen no evidence of vibrato on the recorder.

@@bricology You have clearly done extensive research into the matter and I applaud that, along with you citing several sources. However, all of this is still meaningless rambling. If you want to go by the strict definition of *vibrato* being regular rhythmic variation of pitch but *not* amplitude, then so be it. Like I established, when playing "vibrato" on a recorder both the amplitude *and* the pitch of the sound change cyclically at the same pace. If you and the scholars you cited would not define that as vibrato, fine, then don't. But what *would* you consider "recorder vibrato" to be, then? This is what I mean by this all being meaningless rambling about terminology. *Clearly* the pitch of the sound *is* changing - your problem is just that the intensity is changing too. Would you call that "fake vibrato"? False vibrato? Perhaps _a cyclic constant simultaneous variation in pitch and amplitude_ ? All-in-all this conversation isn't very musical at all, is it now? *This is what people refer to when they talk about playing vibrato on the recorder.* It might not be purely the pitch that is changing, but as you said and every recorder player knows damn well, this is the best the recorder can do. It would be ridiculous to go up to a recorder player and say "Actually, you can't play vibrato, only false vibrato" because *this is the technique recorder players are referring to when they talk about "vibrato" on their instrument.* You are being absurdly pedantic about terms. What makes your preposterous witch hunt against vibrato on recorders even more silly is that *"true" vibrato IS possible on recorder!* Recorder players have two techniques for vibrato: _diaphram vibrato_ (the one we have been discussing, the "false" vibrato) and _finger vibrato,_ where you smoothly lift one of your fingers off the hole to smoothly raise the pitch of the note (for instance, low G to low A on soprano). This is also how recorder players play glissandos. Sure, this technique is much more difficult to master, but true vibrato is still possible on a recorder. I don't quite grasp your incentive for going around telling people that recorder players can't actually play vibrato. You sound almost as if this whole thing is some great big conspiracy devised by recorder players to deceive and lie to other musicians about the capabilities of their instrument, when in reality, naturally, this is just what recorder players call this particular technique on their instrument - _vibrato._

yessssssss! 💪🏼

The recorder employs *tremolo* , *not vibrato* . Vibrato is the fluctuation in pitch. Tremolo is the fluctuation in intensity (or volume).

@@bricology Well, if you blow harder on the recorder, the pitch goes up, so a tremolo in recorder terms means also a vibrato ;)

thanks for writing,

Thanks for sharing this - I had almost given up on vibrato, but this technique seems to work for me!

That's a great idea!

@Stephanie Ellison -- the OP is confused. What she's calling "vibrato" is in fact "tremolo". Vibrato is a fluctuation in *pitch* (think of an opera singer's voice, a cello, a slide trombone), while tremolo is a fluctuation in *volume* (or intensity). It is impossible to produce vibrato on a recorder since the pitch is determined by the length of the vibrating string, column of air, etc. There is no way to change that length on a recorder, since the pitch is the product of the distance from the labium (or embouchure hole) to the first open hole, and nothing else. Those two terms are frequently confused, which hasn't been helped by the fact that some instruments and effects have been given wrong names, such as the vibraphone (which actually produces tremolo).

@@bricology The pitch of the recorder goes up if you blow harder, so it is (also) vibrato.

On oboe for example, vibrato is mainly fluctuation of dynamics (louder/softer)

+Danny Cruz definitely, your intuition in this is very important!

I spent all of last night going through the vibrato pages in the book. I seems his choice of YYYYYYYeaheaheaheah and Hanging is meant to focus on that movement at the base of the tongue. I think repeating Oy (rhymes with Bolshoi) would have the same effect. It's also interesting that von Hauwe's approach emphasizes no changes in breath pressure from the respiratory muscles. It is not what Sarah demonstrated here with releasing the breath and building the breath to create the fluctuations, but von Hauwe rather uses tongue position to affect pitch. I think his heeheehee giggling example is not really good because if you put your hand on your belly, you can't avoid engaging those muscles when you giggle. No one laughs silently either, as we must do when we play. So the larynx is never engaging in the same way as when we say heeheehee out loud, which is voiced. That exercise 83 with going from high C to faux-D also always engages the breathing muscles if you use giggling. The yyyyeahyeahyeah or Oy Oy Oy Oy worked for producing the drop in pitch much better!

​@@reeser8 Wow, thank you! I've kept most of the English words, adding a transcription and pictures illustrating tongue position, but the giggling example did seem a bit out of place. I should try those exercises with Oy.

I think the last thing is correct. What do you mean with voo-voo-voo sound? Vibrato with your lips? Just a remark: I think you can make a pitch vibrato with your lips on the sax. I'm not sure, but I think a vibrato with air on sax would mean alternations between louder/softer, whereas on recorder it would not only be louder/softer, but also highter/lower.

@@Blokfluitgroep Yes, vibrato on the saxophone is with your jaw. Adjusting how tight your jaw is on your mouthpiece adjusts the pitch as well. Alterations with air don't necessarily change your pitch.

Oh, people certainly use vibrato on the recorder! But not as part of the basic tone (like I was taught on the concert flute) - but rather as an ornament, the sugar and spice as you say :)

"I was told by some people that you never do vibrato on a recorder." It's not that you *don't* do vibrato on a recorder, it's that you *can't* . Vibrato is the fluctuation in pitch, and the only way that can be produced is by changing the length of the vibration. On a cello, this is done by rolling the finger against the string on the neck, which changes the vibrating length of the string. On a trombone, it's done by moving the slide to change the length of the vibrating column of air. On a saxophone, it's done by the player moving the place they're putting pressure on the reed which again, changes the length of the column of vibrating air. But on a recorder, the pitch is determined entirely by the distance from the labium to the first open hole. Unless you can figure out some way to change that length (other than by fingering the holes), all you can manipulate is the *intensity* or *volume* with your breath, but *not* the pitch.

If you 'fix' your breath support, and then vibrate, you will produce a throat vibrato. Because if everything in your breath support (you know, belly(&sides) area) is fixed, it can for sure not be a diaphragm vibrato. I personally prefer a throat vibrato, because I can vary more with it. A diaphragm vibrato, I'm only able to do it slow, which is not very handy when I want a fast vibrato. Also I have the feeling my breath support suffers when I use diaphragm vibrato.

@@DianneHeijstee -- what you're describing is *tremolo* , not vibrato. Vibrato is the variation in pitch; tremolo is the variation in intensity or volume. There is no way to change the pitch on a recorder, like one can on a cello, slide trombone, etc. The pitch of a recorder is entirely determined by the distance from the labium to the first open hole. Sorry to be pedantic, but those two terms being used interchangeably is a pet peeve of mine, and I'm sorry to see Sarah -- who is otherwise so knowledgeable -- perpetuate that confusion.

@@bricology Let's agree to disagree!

@@DianneHeijstee -- er...I'm happy to do so, but it's not a question of differing opinions, it's a question of physics. If anyone can explain how pitch can be made to fluctuate on a recorder, or can demonstrate their ability to fluctuate pitch using a tuner, I'll be happy to admit I'm mistaken. But in all of my years of playing, I have *never* heard anyone explain how it is possible on a recorder to vary the pitch, nor have I ever seen anyone demonstrating it, by using a tuner that shows small variations in pitch. (I've tried this myself) Instead, I just see people mistakenly using the word "vibrato" to actually describe "tremolo". Feel free to explain or demonstrate otherwise. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrato en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo

@@bricology It's very easy to vary in pitch on a recorder, either by blowing louder or softer (which indeed goes hand in hand with a slight increase or decrease of volume), or simply by slightly opening or closing holes. If I use vibrato, either finger vibrato or throat vibrato, I definitely vary in pitch. If I would not want this, I use finger vibrato while compensating 'the other way around' with my breath, so it would be simply a change in volume. I'm not sure if this is what you mean. Either way, I don't really care about what it's called, as long as it sounds nice.

And sometimes not even with breath or fingers, but with the throat!

Yes. And that applies to string and wind instruments

controlled vibrato is indeed hard. The uncontrolled wavery kind isn't hard.

Yes! There is a book with the slightly off-putting title 'difficult studies for descant recorder' also by Keuning, and it's good! The level is intermediate. Otherwise... I will have a think!

NIce! hang in there! Here are some tips for recorder playing let me know if it helps?! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/p8qXmLJl16yyaXU.html

Burn is a pretty good song

Maybe that's why they use more finger vibrato on tin whistle?

I usually use D and A for my alto, and A and E for my tenor. I like to tune fifths as well as unisons/octaves, as I find I can hear those better. Use nice loud open fingerings!

Ty

It does- but the lip vibrato is a separate kind to the diaphragm vibrato, abd is generally used more as an effect than a ‘true’ vibrato :)

Sarah Jeffery / Team Recorder arigatou sensei

That's *tremolo* . Tremolo and vibrato are very different things. Tremolo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo "In music, tremolo (Italian pronunciation: [ˈtrɛːmolo]), or tremolando ([tremoˈlando]), is a trembling effect. There are two types of tremolo. The first is a rapid reiteration...A second type of tremolo is a variation in amplitude." Vibrato: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrato "Vibrato (Italian, from past participle of 'vibrare', to vibrate) is a musical effect consisting of a regular, pulsating change of pitch. It is used to add expression to vocal and instrumental music. Vibrato is typically characterised in terms of two factors: the amount of pitch variation ('extent of vibrato') and the speed with which the pitch is varied ('rate of vibrato')." Cf. www.violinonline.com/glossary.html www.keyandpitch.com/musical-terms/