Do you struggle to finish songs? Turn your riffs into songs with my FREE 7 Day Riff-to-Song Challenge: bit.ly/RTSCHALLENGE

The great thing is that your video is structured exactly as you say songs should be structured. Good work. ;D

Even though Petrucci wrote intro first, he was aware that there needs to be a pay off. Concept and structure is all that matters. I believe the reason why Trey is urging everyone to start at the end is because it is a safety net until you internalise those concepts, and when you do, you can change up your approach depending on a project, idea etc. And that why Petrucci is a master, he has all those concepts internalised and he can play with ideas however he wants.

Great advice. Watching your videos always help me improve my songwriting. Thank you. 👍

This is one of the best videos on songwriting I've ever seen. Great work Trey.

i love stopping work and watching Sherley's videos.

Absolutely the best explanation and motivation we all needed. Thanks Trey!

The quality of the information you shared in this video is incredible This was special ❤

Such a headslapping moment this video is amazing. I am going to now have to take your courses as a thank. you.

This is great!

Such an amazing video Trey

My guy, this is gold. I love your gong show and the Friday livestream (and you've Eviserated me lol). But this, this is so good. Thanks my guy

Finally someone talks about Peruvian Skies. I frickin love that song! 🤘I generally feel that Falling Into Infinity is actually an amazing record that just gets overlooked pretty often

Great video, Trey!

This is an underrated video 🤌🏽 I love this!

Dude this is like fucking gold dust!!! For ages now I’ve been stuck and I never thought of this perspective 😱🥰. Thank you pal!

Killer advice Trey!!

That's great explanation! Thanks

I've never thought about my song writing like this before..... But I can't believe why I haven't.... I mean, it's absolutely a no brainer. Thanks for the slap upside the head Brother. I really appreciate your channel and advice. Take care, ~Jonny5🥁

Great video and a fantastic way of explaining this approach to writing. I totally agree with a lot of it! I've been guilty myself of a too "linear" writing approach, thinking I would have to work my way from beginning to end and sometimes ending up writing a songs that seemed a little aimless or that started repeating themselves because that "character development" happened (or didn't happen) before I knew where to go, so I just circled musical redundancies. Still haven't mastered that top down approach. But I do enjoy integrating it into my workflow so far and not unnecessarily forcing out unrelated new ideas like you described, just to keep it moving.

I've been doing this method. It was where I instinctually always went first. The hardest part for me has been writing the verses and figuring out the turn arounds.

You deserved a subscribe! 😊

I have struggled to even start writing a song but this made so much sense! Now I finally know where to start and where to go.

Writing the final run of the song first is such a great approach. Thanks for the great idea Trey.

Damn dude the insight of this video is extremely effective

Took me a few hard drives full of side quests and intros to get the backwards thing. Still relapsing from time to time ;) maybe I do have to take your course.... 🤔Excellent choice of words once again!

This video is a masterpiece.

Oddly enough I usually write the chorus/verse first. then the intro/ending last. That being said, this idea of figuring out where you are going first like a story is a really great idea! i'll have to try it sometimes!

I've always framed songs as stories!

Trey: Deliver the ring to Mt. Doom first, then write the rest of the song aiming for the end. Nik: How to Shirecore in 30 seconds!

Trey Xavier, The Song Savior™

I'm glad you included footage from the greatest movie of all time - Walk Hard The Dewey Cox Story

You're trying really hard to lessem yours and our suffering on your song contest... But seriously, you're a poet and your metaphores are amazing. You can not really deliver a how to write a song better than you do. Thanks bro.

Eu amo esse canal.

Every day I have to keep reminding myself that the order I right the song in doesn’t have to be the order of the song itself 🤦‍♂️

An idea for another video/short. Different kinds of outros. Something other than droning out.

This is very similar to how I wrote with my last band that is now dead sadly. When trying to do this myself I find that the biggest issue is deciding what the part actually is. I often have so many variations on a part/riff that I never settle for something that is the actual song, just suggestions for what could happen. I miss my bandmates telling me "nah that is good enough now let's continue on the next part after this".

Hey man, does the songwriting course ever go on sale? I was waiting for a Labor Day special… Thanks.

I was thinking about this last week. Story board the song.

We always write the main riff. I say "write." One of us starts playing something, then everyone jumps in. That becomes the main riff of the song, and everything else comes later.

I loved this video dude. Aside from seeing loads of LOTR, I feel like this tactic is going to be super useful. Always good to have tools to turn to when you need a different approach. Thanks for the quality info as always man 🤘

Sent here by Sean from Rifshop and Vocal Academy!

Inspiration is the One MacGuffin to rule them all...

Love the added effect of trailer music, particularly as it builds @8:35.

6:30 am but here we fookin go

I really like this. Instead of starting with a riff and trying to find variations to grow it, I think it can be better to write the most climactic version of it and then strip it down for it's build up.

this TN slaps HARD!

As a writer (words) I love these kinds of videos because they track 100%.

Rough counting just now, I have over 300 songs in various states of 'initiation entropy" on my computer. I'm hoping to check this weekend to see if this method is enough to keep my OCD from wandering off into the paralysis-inducing fields of infinite possibility.

I like this idea and am excited to try it out to help finish some of my incomplete songs. It did however get me thinking of exceptions to this rule that the ending shouldn't be a new part not related to the main theme of the song. There are some famous ones. Ref.the finale of Alice In Chains' "Would?"

Great perspective. Well explained. I'm interested in your opinion regarding bridges. Sometimes they are related to the main theme. Sometimes they are not. Both can be effective. So, is this a side-quest or something that gives the listener a chance to relax, build anticipation, or what?

This was excellent! Would it be fair to say you are describing a “sonata” song arrangement?

Meaningful character growth! Yes, you also described what's wrong with most movies today. And thank you for using Lord of the Rings as your example... except that Tom Bombadil comment. I'll forgive you... :)

Interesting... when I wrote my most successful song (Give You My Love), I came up with the ending first (long held note, 6/8 outro) and wrote the rest of the song just to get to that note.

4:10am good way to start the day.🤘🤘

Random comment, but it's funny. I think I originally discovered GearGods from your The Armed rig rundown, which was one of the most bizarre things to see. But man, the Armed have quickly become my favorite band over the last few years. Have you kept up with them, Trey?

As a beat producer, I actually do the same kind of thing where I produce as much as I can on an 8 or 16 bar loop, and when I don't see that it needs more, I then start arranging that loop into verses, choruses, etc. I've never really thought about it like that for my non-hiphop/trap music, but I think I should start trying that out. Thanks Trey!

There is no end

Trey: "what can i make a video about to show people that i got to hang out with John Petrucci....." 😉

10:51pm let’s go

Deus ex machina? You gettin' all faincy on us, Trey? Great advice here. I'll try it! My problem is I have notebooks full of lyrics but when I try to make a song out of them, they sound stupid to me. Or I'm too hard on myself? I don't know how to tell the difference. Any advice?

Very interesting take on songwriting, thanks, that's something to think about! I'm playing solo with my Boss RC-300 for my KZfaq-Channel at the moment, so my options for songwriting are a bit limited, but I've learned to use this limitation as an asset (was a years-long journey ;-)). To close the circle to your video: With live-looping I only have the option to ad (simple speaking, and to fall back to the intro-riff), so I try to keep the loop small at the beginning and make the song bigger and bigger to get back to the intro. With the inspiration from your video I may find some of adjustments for my songwriting. Here's an example: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qr1zoLZl3tuYpI0.html

Maybe while I'm on vacation I'll finally release my first thing. It'll probably confuse people because it'll sound like it was recorded in 1968, but that's how I hear music. All theoretical of course.

Yes 9:22 ily for this joke 😂

Sorry but i don’t play power metal lol, i prefer create the foundation first and surprising myself with the ending. I create my story with the beginning and i don’t really know 100% what will be the ending and sometimes i am: "Oh my god this is too great!!!" But nobody works the same way and that’s ok!

I get my inspiration from Queen 💪😎🎸

Good advise. When they make a movie they actually film the ending first!! I never thought about that......hmmmmmmmm.

The movies may have been more cohesive without Tom, but the books woulnd't have been as whimsical without him, also, the Council of Elrond scene was a lot more fun with them bickering about whether the ring should be handed off to a god who would lose it out of disinterest. The movies are a much more compelling analog for songwriting. Tolkien would spend three pages describing a single landscape.

I can't believe you called Petrucci a horse 😢

THIS is good shit.

So you're telling me that the reason I'm not finishing the song is cause I'm fiddling with mix EQ instead of rerecording the rough verse tracks?!

what's your obsession with LOR?

🤌

Hmm, this could be a potent antidote to prog salad. Doing some good thinking Trey!

I’ll add laziness to not finishing my songs too and why I wouldn’t have gotten the ring to Mordor. 😂

How I think when song writing: Imagine you aren't the one who wrote the song. You just randomly heard it on the radio or somehing. Ok, how quickly are you changing the channel? How should the song go, so you wouldn't?

There is no right or wrong way to write a song

You are talking about all Disney movies. All side quests and no story LOL.

I'm not sure this is helpful at all, as the "don't write the intro first" wasn't. I am not a super accomplished songwriter, but I wrote some complete songs and I think both approaches you presented would hinder my process. The best advice in this video for me is the sidequest, you don't need to write a thousand ideas, if you have 3 musical ideas that fit together, you most likely already have a complete song.

Hey man, brilliant conent. Your video gets a "like" from me. :) But I disagree with you. Not on the method of writing the ending first. Worth trying and I write all of my songs with many different approaches including just one word that enters my head or one melody or even an intro idea or a simple concept. But I disagree with there needing to be a conclusion in the story you're telling within a song. I like the relation you are making between songs and films. But you definitely do not have to conclude or make the listener feel like there is a conclusion in the story you're telling within a song. In music if I go to the five (V) chord by theory it feels like there is tension and it wants to resolve to the one (I) chord. But lyrics, I do not believe are the same. You can tell a story lyrically and take the listener through the woods and over the hills. And teleport them literally to where you were, but you do not have to make them feel like they leave or return home. Or that there is a conclusion to the story within the lyrics. Let's say the lyrics are talking about a relationship that went bad. Well it doesn't have to conclude with "Fuck you." It doesn't have to conclude with "I forgive you." It doesn't even have to conclude with "Hey, we were both wrong. Let's just go our separate ways." It can just be a story about a bad relationship. And it can even end on something very vague lyrically. Something that is more expressing a feeling rather than a part of the story.

Heresy!! Repent and write a Tom Bombadil now!!

Generally good advice. Songs are progressions that require movement. The ending is the resolve. The average listener often needs a breather or a hint with what’s happening next and the outro brings them in for a landing. Unresolved endings can occasionally be used for tension, especially if placed in an album sequence. Not all movies have a happy ending. I still think Disco Sucks !

The movie is better without Tom Bombadil.

How every time you do all crazy things man ?I'm impressed LOL .Very helpful

For me it's the complete lack of skill plus talent.