How to Make Side Bars

Рет қаралды 134,389

6 жыл бұрын

This video will take you step by step on how to make langstroth hive side bars for the frames. It is a very tedious process, but can be very rewarding in the end. The side bars can cost next to nothing if your using scrap wood if you don't consider your time. Check it out, and hope it helps.
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Пікірлер: 248

@isaacocitti3312 Жыл бұрын

You have been the best at explaining how side bars can be made. I watched many and found yours very outstanding. Great work for this sharing.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks. I’m glad it’s helping a few.

@lostinthewoods357 Ай бұрын

Well done! Thank you for showing the side bar jig! I've seen several videos but none explain how they are done. Thank you!

@peterwiebe694 2 жыл бұрын

Tough crowd! Not everyone has planers, jointers and narrow kerf blades to get started in beekeeping! Use what you already have, I get it! I appreciate you sharing this video!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Yup. Thanks. Your welcome.

@chasinfindeer4206 Ай бұрын

Thank You so much for making and sharing this video! Very helpful and informative!

@MatthewCuba 4 жыл бұрын

That's a pretty clever jig for tapering the sides. Well done! Informative video. Thank you for posting it!

@shrekpower 4 жыл бұрын

I used a 3/4 inch Mortising Bit on my router table and put a stopper at the right length and desired depth of the cut and it is working well too!

@shrekpower 4 жыл бұрын

I got to agree though, his setup is more secure and looks a bit more efficient too!!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@spiritoftoad Жыл бұрын

This was definitely the hardest part for me. Thanks for sharing!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@markspc1 3 жыл бұрын

Good rainy day chores. You could speed up the process by running your 2x6 thru a planer so you make it the same width as the side bars.

@eatanelkberger 3 жыл бұрын

Good idea. Also seems to me you could use a jointer (with a stop) to taper the sides before slicing them to 3/8" thickness. I would guess this to be much faster than using the jig in the video.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

One day I’ll get a planer.

@joecnc3341 4 жыл бұрын

Thank You for putting the great video together for making beehive components. As a fellow beekeeper (I'm a "New-Bee" beekeeper) - I appreciate it. Suggestion: Maybe put a melamine tall fence on your tablesaw's fence when cutting the dados ? (approx 6 min in video) Keep up the great work.

@mahmudrahman9855 2 ай бұрын

Amazing Thank you 🙏 May Allah bless you more

@danbeeson9564 Жыл бұрын

I enjoyed your video. This is a great way to make the side bars with just a table saw. If you had a thickness planer you could save a lot of time by planing your material to thickness before cutting your chunks on the miter saw. You would have to fine tune your jigs a bit but would save a couple of steps. I love the use of the data blade jig to do the tapering at the end. Much faster than a router table!

@Fantasma-gj3go 11 ай бұрын

I found that the jig for the grooves here has a problem with kick back and if it does it hurts. I found it’s actually quicker and easier to use a 3/4” dado stack and cut the groove in the whole stock piece before cutting them down to 3/8”.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks for the tips!

@terry2346 4 жыл бұрын

I really like your set up for making the sides cut down to 1 inch! Going to make that jig. Thanks

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@kalimatdee3099 4 жыл бұрын

Loved the way you made it easy. Thanks.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@ericholbrook3062 3 ай бұрын

Damn , you make it look so easy , you sir are a wood wizard lol , awesome video

@josephsastre464 10 ай бұрын

Thanks for this video. Just built a tapering jig modeled after yours. My fingers thank you.

@josephsastre464 10 ай бұрын

Now I just tried out the new jig and it worked perfectly. Looks just like the ones they sell commercially. And fingers are safe. Thank you so much. One thing I’m going to do differently though is “plane” down my wood to width so I can just center the dados. I use 2x3 lumber so it’s easy to plane down my lengths by just dust cutting one side.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Fantastic! I’d love to see it in action.

@JosephSastreShowsYou 9 ай бұрын

@@BeeToZFL here is the jig. Somehow I have an accidental duplicity going on on KZfaq so it appears under my channel "I'll Show You" and this is the first video I've ever made or published. Thanks again! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iKholdSnxJOunaM.html

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Nice. I like it!

@myworke-mail339 Жыл бұрын

Thank you, your video was the only one I found that explained why there are those notches in the side bars. You have saved me from future headaches. :o) Well done, thanks!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@craigkichline3187 5 жыл бұрын

thanks for the jig idea. took 20 min to build. work perfectly.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@liquidrockaquatics3900 2 ай бұрын

If you make an updated video, would you be switching to feather boards on the table saw? I was also curious as to whether solid wood was preferred over plywood or if it is just a price consideration? If plywood was an option, someone with a CNC could batch these out in massive numbers quickly, and you know they would stay straight and strong. I am not familiar enough with lasers to know if that would work or not, but I would imagine that would be even faster

@alejandroescobar5203 Жыл бұрын

Beautiful Job ! Congratulations... thank you for sharing.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome Thank you

@keithlitchfield8848 4 жыл бұрын

You have inspired me with this video. I am going to try this. Thank you for taking the time to record and post this video.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@sweethappybee434 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the video I got some tips From you. I like the people who doing something by their own hands.👍👍👍👍

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@Snr.Prefect. 4 жыл бұрын

Great job men, very much inspiring. I'm not a carpenter but one day I'll try out one.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

I’m not great ether….small steps in the right direction gets the job done though.

@gwtill 3 жыл бұрын

Great video. Looking forward to trying it.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks.

@MS-yx3dr 4 жыл бұрын

Great job sir

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@djastram Жыл бұрын

You make it look easy! Thanks for sharing.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks.

@douglashatfield5676 5 жыл бұрын

sure like the beekeepers workshop and i like the jig's you've made

@NeverEnoughDiving 4 жыл бұрын

Great video. Thank you. Would you mind sharing what type of table saw you are using? I’m in the market for a new one. Thanks again.

@brandibartolomucci789 5 жыл бұрын

I made a bunch of medium frames because I had to add to my hive right away. The girls were crowded and I didn't want to take the chance of swarming before I could get some shipped in. All I had was a cheap Riobi 10inch table saw( no datto) and a chop saw! They are not pretty but the girls took to them!! I'll make more. It will go quicker and look better with more experience!! ☝😁👍

@livingstonsimmonds566 Жыл бұрын

Excellent job thanks

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank You.

@thilltony3362 Жыл бұрын

Great video, keeping it simple with a table saw, some home-made jigs and a dado stack. A planer to get the thickness the same might help, might not. Great video.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@airwolf61970 5 жыл бұрын

I build my own beehives out of pallets. It's alot of work but they're beautiful and the price is right. I run all 8 frame mediums. It seems to suit useing pallets. But I really want to make my own frames. Thanks for the video.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Nice. Your welcome.

@hanv3941 4 жыл бұрын

You are very smart person. Thank you for sharing it.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@ronendraborbora7139 5 жыл бұрын

Very good and easiest way of making Side Bars. Thanks a lot.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@TheScomber56 2 жыл бұрын

You can save a load of time by first planning your board to the required thickness. Then cut to lengths and and dado the grooves. Then i use the jointer to shape the sides before you saw the block in to individual pieces. Also if you use a thin kerf blade you end up less sawdust and more pieces at this stage.

@psystealth 2 жыл бұрын

Yes, do the sides before the split cuts :-))

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Great tips. Hopefully one day I can get a planer.

@josephvogel7234 2 жыл бұрын

Well done. Brilliant

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@kennylecroy9706 2 жыл бұрын

Best i've seen so far,maby the planner would help thanks

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you. I’ve always wanted a planer.

@Uncle_Buzz 3 жыл бұрын

EXCELLENT video. Thanks!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@Airtube-2hrb 4 жыл бұрын

Very good 👌

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@paulostapa 4 жыл бұрын

Hey thanks for the video, very good!!!!! Do you have one on how to make a top and bottom bars? Should come up with one 😊

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Soon. Thank you.

@SuperBuickregal Жыл бұрын

Great video thanks for it and the guy VINO Farms recommended!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Awesome! Thank you!

@zaqueudasilva7780 3 жыл бұрын

Best best way tô do it . Great job Bro .

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you sir.

@waydwnbama-way3089 4 жыл бұрын

This was awesome and detailed thanks. New sub

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome and thank you. More to come soon.

@gordonspond 7 ай бұрын

Interesting. I started making my own frames and did the side bars the exact same way! The only problem I had was lumber quality. You need the best / densest pine you can get... otherwise the ears have a tendency to break off during assembly of the frame.

@joshgarris3905 2 ай бұрын

I had the same issue, lumber quality is just so far down because it's all new growth. I just planned on making extras. If they break, they garbage. Guess you could try repurposing them for a medium frame, but it will probably just splinter and break again.

@danreeve4993 4 жыл бұрын

Hey I think you give awesome info thank you I’m from the Tampa area and trying bees for the first time this year well that is if I can catch a swarm any tips ?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you. I use lemmongrass oil or swarm commander. I use a 5 frame or 10 frame box with foundation on bottom and a migratory top. I put ratchet strap around the whole setup and out in a tree 10-15 feet up. I’ll re add the lure once a week. Good luck.

@adricmohamed4797 4 жыл бұрын

Nice thinking

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@stacywaltman7898 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks I've been trying to figure this out

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@44thala49 Жыл бұрын

Awesome video. Subbed!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank You.

@cookclan 4 жыл бұрын

Good job. Great jigs.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@pradeeppallan2232 4 жыл бұрын

Good video and description for making the jigs. Just curious what size is your dado blades?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

It varies based on how it’s setup.

@johnbranconi9053 3 жыл бұрын

A wood tenon jig is easy to make great video thanks!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@edsmith4414 4 жыл бұрын

Good winter time project ! Now how about one for machining the top bar ?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Soon. Thank you.

@danreeve4993 4 жыл бұрын

I only have a table saw and can’t wait to try this

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Go for it!

@TamerRagheb Жыл бұрын

Smart

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@killianmurphy4616 3 жыл бұрын

Ingenious

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@blackberry5908 4 ай бұрын

Did you mention how deep is the cut verticaly ?

@alanporter2694 4 жыл бұрын

Very good- thanks

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@UsmaanAwol 10 ай бұрын

❤✔

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Ty.

@garybeez Жыл бұрын

This video is pure gold

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@muratbergal7603 5 жыл бұрын

Hello beautiful video May I know the name of the knives you use and where you get them from

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Dado blades.

@jonathanswoboda Жыл бұрын

Best to do an undersized dado first, both thinner and a bit shallow. Setup is easy as you dont have to be exact. That way the final pass you dont have to push as hard, wont stall your saw and it doesn't burn.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Good tip. I’ll have to try that one day. Extra step though.

@gwtill 3 жыл бұрын

Why did you use a 3/4 dado in the jig to cut the 3/16 off the side bars? Since the bars are only 3/8 wouldn’t a 3/8 dado give a smoother cut since most of the cutting would be done by the outside blades? Am I missing something?

@reedonereedone907 3 жыл бұрын

Good 👍

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks.

@marinvidovic763 11 ай бұрын

Thanks for yor in detail description of the cutting process and your equipement !!! P.S. I come across an interesting video today , at this guy chanal : R. Ivkovic Title: Deeping of beehives components in hot wax It might give you some very interesting assembly jig - IDEAS !!! All the best !

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Cool, thanks! I’ll check it out.

@terry2346 4 жыл бұрын

Pick yourself up a small thickness planer and then you can plane them down to the exact width. But it looks like you have a good setup going! How many side frames per 2X6X8? And then how many 2 by needed for the rest of the build? Thanks

@mikeoxlong3224 Жыл бұрын

Definitely jointer. Run before dido and rips.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

One day I’ll get a planer.

@corybuckles8492 5 ай бұрын

I know it's an old video, but I want to say thank you for actually showing good safety procedures. It's terrifying how many how-to videos on making beekeeping equipment show people doing incredibly dangerous things with table saws, like free-handing those dado cuts or ripping with no push sticks and a missing riving knife. 😬

@MarkThomas123 Ай бұрын

Did the thought ever cross you mind, that table saws were around for many, many years without Riving knives, etc?? Some people don't need or want them. Me being one of them, and I have all 10 fingers and have been using table saws for 60+ years.. Daddo blades are outlawed in other Countries.. Can you imagine that?? Why?? People who want to restrict how other people work, because, they are scared to work with them themselves... It's really a crying shame! AND,,, we didn't have videos showing us how to use them either.. Just plain ole common sense is what we learned with. Wow,, how people have changed over the years... Do you see the Common Sense in this reply?? Try to Cut Aluminum with a SawStop, and see how much that mistake we have done for years costs you... Why?? Because, someone thinks you need to make me safe.. Ha..Ha..Ha.. Only in today's world..... No wonder so many people rolled up their sleeves to take the "DNA Editing" without even thinking how dangerous that "Untested Edit" was going to be.. Ha..Ha.. Shocking!! Or,, wear a 90 micron mask to stop a virus that is 5 microns in size.. It is like trying to stop a mosquito with a chain link fence... Some People!!!! You can't help them!! Lets see how many likes our two comments get!! Mine vs yours! Nothing wrong with your reply... Just the basis and thought process behind it.. You do know, if you design a pair of Steel Gloves, you can guarantee you can use a table saw and NEVER cut your fingers?? Probably won't be able to use or move your fingers, but, who cares right?? You are safe!! You can sell your car and never drive again and guarantee, you will never get into a car accident, but, don't ride with anyone else either.. And, stop using knives and forks because, you might stick yourself in the face.. And, don't wear shoes with shoe strings, in case you forget to tie them.. And, the list goes on.. Maybe a a saw blade with zero teeth? When will you guys stop?? Pick a trade/hobby, where you don't fool with dangerous things.. Might want to remove the door thresholds under your doors. Might trip over that.. But, that means, don't go to anyone else's home either!! It's Absolute Lunacy.

@corybuckles8492 26 күн бұрын

@@MarkThomas123 I use a radial arm saw myself. I was also in the army. I definitely understand the concept of doing things that have inherent risk. What I'll never get is why you had to go on a long, completely unhinged rant because I thanked a guy for using his common sense to not multiply the risk for absolutely no reason.

@MarkThomas123 25 күн бұрын

@@corybuckles8492 Yea.. I'm sure I couldn't find the same comment, on a KZfaq Safety Police negative note.. I don't need anyone to keep me safe.. Neither do 99% of the others who do woodworking and video.. Some people just bend the knee to the Safety Police.. Guess you can tell I don't/won't.. So, there you go.

@robertwatson3111 Жыл бұрын

Does anyone know where you can purchase just the side bars for Langstroth deep frames?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Maybe try contacting one of the big frame manufacturers like Mann Lake.

@johnmorgan9435 Жыл бұрын

Have been doing this for the last 20 years, but use a router for the 'Hoffman' finish, might just consider a dado blade.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Interesting.

@difullahkhamis449 5 ай бұрын

👍🌹

@danbeeson9564 Жыл бұрын

Holy smokin’ dado blade! 😉

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Yeah, I probably need a new set.

@VanessaFourie Жыл бұрын

i like this

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@user-cp2sx8gp2z 4 ай бұрын

What is the purpose for tapered sidebars, i never used them ?

@joshgarris3905 2 ай бұрын

Good to hear, I couldn't figure out how to do it with the piece of stock so I just said they don't need to be tapered lol. If I figure out how to do it efficiently, I will lol.

@717Fang Жыл бұрын

Which table saw do you use / because not all table saws will accept dado blade set/ ?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Dewalt DWE7491

@woodworkingaspirations1720 Жыл бұрын

Planning to do this with a scroll saw.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Nice. I’d love to see a video.

@dlfabrications Жыл бұрын

How wide is your blade knife? Where did you get it?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Standard blades.

@davidjunior1966 3 жыл бұрын

Could you inform Model of the Irwin Blade you use?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

The details have rubbed off sorry. There are many sets available.

@artesaniavalladolisessanti1658 4 жыл бұрын

hola desde españa,no hablo inglés, me gustaria saber donde as comprado el disco de la maquina de corte,gracias🖒🖒

@scotbradeen3911 3 жыл бұрын

Este marca está disponible en Home Depot aquí en Los Estados Unidos, no se si tienen una tienda similar allá. Amazon tiene muchas opciones de juego dado de 8 pulgadas .

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

hardware store locally. Available on Amazon as well I’m sure.

@lucasingala5304 Жыл бұрын

What table saw do you have? My saw is a saying a 13/16 is the largest it will use

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Dewalt DWE7491

@schatziburli3692 4 жыл бұрын

Sidebars are the Most difficult Woodwork to do, even with this machines?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Has the most steps. Yes.

@satishkanuri Жыл бұрын

What is the best wood for bee hives?, which wood you are using sir?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

I use what ever I can find. Even scrap wood I find in dumpsters. Bees don’t care.

@lexjohns6401 5 ай бұрын

You don't say what tools to buy like arbers tablesaw adjustable ect. Thank you,?

@VaderSpade 4 жыл бұрын

Good video if you only have a table saw. I plane my long boards to 1 3/8" and then cut blocks 9 1/8". Cut your top and bottom bar notches, use a jointer to plane the lower 2/3 down to 1 1/8" and THEN rip. I use a bandsaw for ripping to save wood and cut freer. I also have a 4 hole drill for the wire holes.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Hopefully this channel can grow and support the purchase of more tools. For now, I’ll use what I have. Thanks for the tips.

@philipthomas1285 3 жыл бұрын

Hi what's up bro,this is the first time I came across your video I like but I don't understand the blade u used to make the cut

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Dado blade set.

@ocherukahmad2902 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks bro.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Your welcome.

@phillipduncan2497 5 жыл бұрын

Do you have a method to make the top bar for these sidebars?

@beep3r 9 ай бұрын

I plane my 2X lumber to the correct thickness before anything else. Then I don't have to trim every individual side bar

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

One day I’ll have a planer. 😁

@quartzcrystal7828 3 жыл бұрын

I am Emmanuel and I would like to know, what can I do to such kind o equipment to make side bars for Langstroth bee hives?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

I used a table saw, and miter saw.

@bernardngunjiri8233 3 жыл бұрын

Good

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank You.

@jtavar1 3 жыл бұрын

I need you to link me up am from Jamaica i love how you deal with making

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Watch more videos. Thank you.

@thomasbacon 2 жыл бұрын

How's your frame making process going? I've been getting pretty close to what I believe is optimal, video on my channel if you want to see.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Nice. I’ll check it out. Haven’t made any frames in awhile now.

@CrazyIvan865 Жыл бұрын

I'm gonna have to watch this video. My first thought was "when the cloning company messes up and makes a Mark Ruffalo/Dean Caine hybrid so they just give it a normal life with anti-social hobbies." LOL No disrespect.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thank You.

@Fred-ff6bv 2 жыл бұрын

How do you make the top and bottom bars?

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

When I gather enough scrap wood, I’ll make top and bottom bar videos. Thank you.

@airwolf61970 5 жыл бұрын

If you had other tools you could do these even easier, but I like your jig system. The only thing I might change if I was you would be. to use a thinner kerf blade for cutting the side bar off the piece of wood stock. Something like a 7 1/4 skil saw blade. Or if you don't mind spending money, Infinity tools has a ultra thin kerf blade that is even thinner. But it's $200. I mention this. Because your loosing alot of end bars per chunk of wood, that kerf cut can eat into your expense alot over 75 frames.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks for the tip.

@airwolf61970 9 ай бұрын

@@BeeToZFL 4 years later. Better late than never

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

For sure. Thank you.

@nsmnsm8889 Жыл бұрын

Hi good video. You need a new Dedo blades.

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

I do.

@aandjwynn Жыл бұрын

nice jigs sir!

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks!!!

@HeartPumper 5 жыл бұрын

Still, not quite economical way, unless you like to cut, a lot!! 1. Make stocks for length. 2. Make top & bottom grooves (tablesaw, dado blade, router). 3. Cut out that evt. extra material from one side (few pases on tablesaw, plane). 4. Cut out that bee space parts (router, miter tablesaw 'diagonal' pass, plane). 5. Slice the stock for the final pieces. Less work, energy used = more time with bees :)

@Tonnsfabrication 5 жыл бұрын

Mann Lake.com, complete frames 86 cents each, no saws, routers or 2x6's required. Lots more time with bees:)

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Good tips.

@jmbauer68 5 жыл бұрын

Always best to square the end of lumber for the first cut

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Thanks for the tip.

@wilbertog58 4 жыл бұрын

Hi and greetings from Puerto Rico, Great videos on how to build those frames. I was wondering if there is any way you could send me a least one unasamble frame if you can, I will be more than willing to pay for shipping fees. Respectfully, Wilberto

@BeeToZFL 9 ай бұрын

Old message. I’m sure you don’t need them now. Happy island beekeeping.

@wilbertog58 9 ай бұрын

@beetoz5283 Hi, thank you for your reply. Believe it or not I do still need it. I do need it because I will use it as an example to make my own ones. Please note that I don't own any bees but would like to own some bee hives if learn how to build the boxes and the rest of the items that goes on them. So please help me out!!!!