THIS is why I love Forgotten Weapons! Ian doesn't care about "being right", he just wants to learn! He doesn't let ego get in the way of discovery! We need more of that in life in general and the firearms world in specific; because there are A LOT of people who create an opinion for themselves and never change their minds after that instant. Thank you Ian ♥

Ian "Nope that sucked. I hit myself right in the face with my knuckle." Camera guy "Don't do that" Ian "Yup" I was in tears laughing

As a retired British shotgun coach, I have to agree that “stockless” shotguns can be fired quite safely and accurately without endangering eyes and teeth. The technique of “cheeking” the gun can only be done with pumps or semi-autos, but regular over-unders and side by sides can be shot using the technique taught by Percy Stanbury, the famous shotgun teacher in London. His “trick” was to push forward with the forend, and pull back with the trigger hand, as if stretching the gun like a piece of elastic. This holds the gun in “suspension” and soaks up most of the recoil. I have seen people shooting very fast close flying targets with this method, and the buttplate never touches their shoulder.

Looking at this from a martial arts lense, by keeping your trigger hand, arm, shoulder, and lats flexed and solid, you transfer the recoil absorption into your lower trunk. Your face moves with the recoil impulse, keeping that gun from punching your teeth as your upper body drifts back as one solid unit. The tension allows for a quick reset for follow up shots. This is essentially all muscle memory after you do enough reps.

Imagine not being able to fire a stockless shotgun like the Terminator

The fact Ian didn't stop after a solid face slap (or 3) is a testament to how willing he is to learn this new style, which after a box or so seems like he has it down.

Ian, this is your version of Skallagrim's "end him rightly". You're re-examining something you ridiculed- and certainly NOT without qualification and reason- that made you famous, and giving it a second chance to work. Nice job!

As a 32 year old woman that has struggled learning the shockwave compared to other platforms, i really appreciate this wrist strap. If you follow along this video with a shockwave in your hands it helps tremendously. So much useful information that is changing the way i hold and aim the shockwave for the better. No more punching myself in the face and explaining to everyone my husband did not hit me!

I love how Ian keeps an open mind and is receptive to learning, as well as being able and willing to change his perspective on something by putting forth effort and attempting to do so. Shows a lot of integrity that isn't quite so common on this platform.

If you make the bird head grip longer, you would end up with a stock similar to a Portuguese/Japanese style matchlock musket. This debate is much older than one might think.

With no stock on the shotgun you get 20% ADS movement speed, and 6% sprint speed. But you get more ADS bullet spread and 15% recoil increase, unless you use other attachments to mitigate that.

Honestly, Rhett has a lot of very unique well thought out ideas on a ton of stuff. He is a very high level shooter and tests the ideas under pressure with a lot of shooting. Really like his stuff

The effort to overcome already established techniques was enlightening and impressive.

I think the most important thing to take from this is that we should always try to walk off our comfort zone and be open minded about everything. I still think this kind of stock is BS but the cheek wielding is a interesting concept.

When I was a little kid, my grandfather's "truck gun" was a Remington pump .22 that he's trimmed the stock down to a birdshead. This very similar to the technique he used and taught me almost 40 years ago, right down to elbow-to-the-ribs. The big difference is the thumb and the strap, which should make 12ga more manageable. General purpose technique? No. Special technique for special purpose tools? Yes.

Rhett put a lot of time, effort, and thought into this, and can demonstrate it on the range. I respect that. It's more than most people here can say.

Still. What Carl and Ian said still is true. You need to practice quite a bit more to make one of those guns work as well as a regular one with a stock.

"In this episode, Ian flogs a dead horse whilst desecrating the holy Chicken Wing."

I wouldn't call myself an expert in anything, but I always felt that the Shockwave was more conceptually sound than Ian gave credit for. I think its pretty neat he gave it a second chance.

Lived/live in Alaska and Maine. The Shockwave was/is my favorite weapon when I had to go into deep thick brush. I mounted a good quality laser sight on it that was grip-activated. In the spring you are dealing with Moose Cows with calves and the same with Bear Sows and cubs. The Shockwave was perfect for keeping close to the body and not getting tangled in briars and other undergrowth. The laser sight made it so I could hip fire it and put rounds on target. As with all weapons training is the key.

Watch videos of Japanese samurai reenactors with cheek stock matchlocks. They have a hold that makes the recoil go sideways away from their faces. They sometimes shoot some real hand cannons with 1” plus bores. The muzzle sweeps away to the side. I have shot a 50 caliber cheek stock matchlock that way and it works.

I'm not sold on this as a technique but it's interesting to see and i give Ian credit for being open minded.

That guy is a really good teacher. Seems very patient and understands that skills take time and effort to master, but also understands the importance of cross-application of skills.

Fascinating to see just how much more nuanced this technique is than just "have a recoil strap and hold the grip on your cheek."

A specific technique that you have to do exactly right versus a good stock that points naturally...

I too find it humbling and amazing to see Ian keep an open mind on a subject that he had already expressed his personal opinion on but was still willing to learn when someone came with a different opinion and a in this case, came also with a method that a stockless shotgun can work and be effective.

For folks that seem confused by the point of this, it's not demonstrating that a stock less shotgun is better, it is showing that with practice you can get a lot of the same effect out of a gun that is in a less than optimal configuration due to stupid gun laws. You also retain the advantages of its relatively compact form factor over a conventional SBS. Yes, if this is not something you want to take the time to learn and perfect, it's not for you. Yes if you want to avoid NFA entanglements, and get a short shotgun, there are bullpups. But I would note that the bullpup shotguns out there have their own unique manual of arms, unconventional idiosyncrasies like trying to load a KelTec, or multiple magazines and awkward pump throw. There is no free lunch.

The cool thing of this technique is the built in negative reinforcement.

I'm very skeptical of this design of shotgun, but I give the guy credit for taking it work. Colour me suprised.

So basically, you use your bunched up arm AS a stock, braced against your ribs.

I'm impressed that Ian took the time to try something new and then admitted that he was in error--that it was a matter of technique. I learned something, too.

Kudos to Ian for being willing to literally take one on the chin and either eat his knuckles or his words.

Simply having a very short stock would give you basically the same length in use, but with your shoulder eating the recoil and giving more stability.

Found Demonstrated concepts from i think thunder ranch or someone else talking about shooting shockwave/tac14s, this man can shoot his ass off. He does what a lot of other folks in the industry only dream of. Actually getting people excited to get out and learn.

In Canada where getting a permit to carry a hand gun for wilderness defense is near impossible short shot guns which are legal and can be carried in a wilderness setting are a very viable option

I have a Mossberg Shockwave that I haven't had out yet. This was an extremely informative video... Thank you!!!

I love the way just as Ians kinda coming around on it and getting better, you can hear someone in the background going "I think I'm done for the day, my elbow reaaaally hurts!"

this is like the school bully of guns: "stop hitting yourself! stop hitting yourself! stop hitting yourself!"

Isn’t he essentially creating a stock out of his arm structure?

I am interested in the Shockwave because it is one of the few shotguns that will cycle the mini-shotgun shells which I thought might mitigate the recoil some. I had not considered shooting it from this position.

This technique for this type of shotgun is not "new" what so ever. It IS good to see it on video, to quickly show how it is done, to demonstrate it to folks that can not seem to understand how effective it truly is. I have been showing folks here and there this for decades. THANK YOU for helping bring this to light !!

He aims it like my friend aimed my pistol grip shotgun (that I sold). I was too scared to aim it like that because I was afraid it end up whacking myself in the mouth, so I held it at my hip. Notice I said I sold it……

I've spent a good bit of time with a birdshead grip Mossberg like this one. Even with a lot of practice I don't find it as useful as a short stock that has a pistol grip such as the type on a Benelli M1.

I loved this. This is the kind of experimentation and demonstration that helps improve firearms usage. I think there is a place for these super shorties.

In this episode Ian unlearns how to hold a gun for target shooting.

I think many folks commenting below are missing the point of this. The Shockwave is indeed a niche weapon but it is still a 12 guage shotgun which is a powerful defensive tool when used within its limitations. This technique is offering a means of turning the Shockwave from a novelty into a viable defensive tool that is very handy in extremely close up encounters. As a former vehicle borne soldier and as a current trucker these sorts of ultra compact weapons and the means by which to use them effectively is very interesting to me. Plus it is always nice to see some out of the box thinking.

Mossberg needs to hire this guy to make a promo video

Two of the best innovator and knowledgeable gun tubers I am super glad to see them together imagine what those two could come up with if they worked together on random wild ideas

Crazy that I just watched Ian's cheek pistol video again about 2 hours ago. Ian IS the KZfaq algorithm.

This collab makes my day… and then I get to watch the video. Thank you

Something I can't remember being said is that when you chickenwing the but of the gun will tend to move in towards your face when it recoils. Pressing your elbow to your body the but of the gun will instead move slightly up on recoil. That is in addition to the added stability and ability to soak recoil. So tuck that elbow even if it feel unnatural at first.

This was awesome to see, been watching the Demonstrated Concepts videos since I think Lucky Gunner first recommended him, love his outside the box thinking that the firearms community needs!

Sounds like we need to get the CAD bois out and ready to design a purpose built grip.

Fun concept, might be worth to learn just to explore more and maybe find something in combination that gives you even more than one or the other.

His concepts are interesting because of what he's able to pioneer using a red dot

This guy is awesome to have figured this out.

I'd rather an 18" barrel with a short stock instead. I appreciate the commitment to trying to make this platform work, and I can definitely appreciate kicking it to the NFA SBS rules, I would never trust this method to be reliable in a stressful situation.

Cool to see Rhett here, his content is very interesting

Been waiting for a video like this to show me what would be the proper grip, stance and compressed hold for something like a Remington Tac 13. Thanks boys!!! Especially you, Ian!

Fantastically enlightening. Thanks to demonstrated concepts and to you, Ian.

I'm still unconvinced by its benefits, inside a building you're still no better off losing a few inches, the only place I can reasonably see it being better than a full length short barrel shotgun would be if someone is behind a open door, and even then you'll still be presenting a shotgun barrel side on before you're on target to actually point at that target, you could back away from the door as you enter, but you can do that with a stocked shotgun just as easily. A shotgun with a stock can also be more feasibly fired one handed braced against your shoulder, it'll be a wild ride either way but certainly no worse than firing it like a pistol, and as for firing from inside a car... If you've got to fire from inside a car out, and you're at risk of being shot at, getting out the car is more important, police officers call cars driving tombs for a reason and while you couldn't fire a full length shotgun without a open window or by feeding your passenger muzzle blast you're still limited to the same firing arcs with 3, 4 even 5 inches off the guns length, so I really can't see how it's any better, unless you're storing it somewhere, in which case yes it's smaller, but is it enough smaller, to be worth carrying over something significantly more compact like a pistol with a laser pointer? I don't think so personally

Fascinating concept that I love learning about!

To anyone doubting this method I encourage you to check out the demonstrated concepts youtube channel and watch rhett's other videos, specifically the ones on his ar15 pistols and 9mm pistols. His house clearing and vehicle work videos are excellent.

I bought a Henry Mares leg back in 2014. I would 'cheek' it like demonstrated in this video. I could hit steel at 75 yards with no issues. Very effective technique

If your barrel is pointed up and you meet some one around a corner then it's generally harder to shoot them. If it's pointed down then you can shoot their lower body.

Wondering if the SAS MP5 3 point sling tension training doctrine could be applied for an even easier process

i think he's an innovator, props. great vid

yes! rhett is awesome glad to see a video with ian!

Remember when the "C clamp grip" was "a weird technique"..? About 30 yrs ago I was showing some friends how this basic technique...Mossy 590 with the old mossy pistol grip. One of my budies did indeed give himself a bloody lip, even after watching his rather small girlfriend do it flawlessly. To this day He just refused to learn. He also refuses to understand the "C clamp", and still uses the old chicken wing bladed stance for shoulder fired weapons.

I like that people are trying to adapt this weapons design. I tried a brace on my shockwave and frankly it lost its magic and just wasn't appealing. Granted this technique needs practice and dedication but just like anything else it can be done. Great to see Ian coming back to this and being open.

Rhett is a visionary, taking old concepts and rethinking them, Ian has such integrity he can make a video and admit he was mistaken. I'm really glad these two got together and I hope to see Rhett make the rounds on all the firearms channels on KZfaq.

This method works very well in VR where it's isnt easy to attach your controller to a stock. A tube with a tennis ball and some rubber band will work. Aiming in VR became much more stable with cheek wielding. This really helped me out.

I find it interesting that the comments section is an odd mix of admiring that Ian is willing to try new things or condemning the concept on its face as garbage.

Bought my Mossberg 590(8 shell, 20" barrel, pistol grip) for $350 new and followed that up with a Bullpup Unlimited chassis. Fairly certain I get the same effective positioning, but with a buttpad, 8+1 capacity, and no tax stamp necessary.

Thanks for giving space for new ideas

@ the 12:40 mark, MAKE sure you have that mlok attached nice and tight! If that comes loose at the wrong time say bye bye to that hand and maybe forearm. I put the streamlight tl racker forend on my shockwave, that has a cutout and strap. Plus the benefit of a pretty bright light.

ooo would have liked to known about this when doing SAT/BAF and having to move a full-length moss 500 through the hatches on the ship

99% of yall are missing the point. There are states where a "firearm" is a lot easier to acquire than other firearms. There are states where NFA items are banned. There are states where a braced shockwave would be an "assault weapon". This is one of those weird niche things that is a middle finger to the ATF, and to local governments, that are too bureaucratic & moronic to understand the real issues. I like that someone is coming up with good ways to fill in some of the questionmarks left by weird/nonstandard, but popular, firearms designs, That are marketed & sold like crazy. Not gonna lie, this idea actually makes a lot of sense to me for my current situation. This "firearm" could be a lot less of a headache than my other options (AR, P365) if i had to get into a defensive encounter in my current situation. 🤷‍♂️ i dont yet own a shockwave/12ga "firearm", but this manual of arms might just convince me otherwise

That guy is a remarkable communicator, really understood what he explained.

Excellent video. More Rhett please. The guy knows his stuff.

I don't deny that Rhett can effectively shoot using this technique. However it begs the question "Is the marginal upside of a few inch reduction in overall size worth learning a new skillset that is counter to all of the time and muscle memory you've spent during your life shooting long guns?"

With enough practice, you can make good use of a single-shot break-action .410. Doesn't make it a good idea for some or even most people. Learning how to maneuver with any full sized long gun will serve you better than spending that time on training a skillset that is only useful for a single platform.

What you've done with that strap is truly a revelation for that firearm! Shear genius!

one of the biggest takeaways i'm seeing and that ian demonstrates (and painfully) so well is the need to learn a completely new way of shooting for this method. fully squared off stance, completely tucked shooting arm, loose grip and trigger slap. contradictory in nearly every way to typical shooting basics. very difficult to say the least. great job. i dig this. might look in to it further.

I think there's a rabbit hole effect here, trying to take a platform and progress for knowledge how far you can take it is one thing thats perfectly fine, turning it from an experiment to a 2 day class seems like justification for that effort.

I would go with a Semi Auto for this. I'm not into home defence but could see this being a good fit for special forces and police tactical squads. I'm glad that Ian is willing to change his mind if given more information! That to me says a lot about the man. Cheers for OZ

Love the shotgun jujitsu technique of leveraging body mechanics. Without the stock you get so much mobility. The close body chicken wing and strap are very innovative techniques.

Never seen Ian look so terrified as that first shot. Literally shaking at 7.00. Brave dude!

Well here is the thing. If you want to use it his way , then do it. If you dont then dont. Hes merely explaining his technique and showing what he can on a short video platform. Probably not for everyone but i myself think it's interesting amd had a lot of thoughts about the same thing myself. No need to criticize it. Either do it or dont.

my wrist hurts watching you guys shoot this

Glad to see Rhett on your channel.

I love Rhett's presentation style.

All hail Sir Ian the Open-minded, Savior of Forgotten Francophone Feu Feu, Debunker of Dumbassery, Breaker of Bird's Beak Boom-boom Balls, and THE Gun Hey Zeus. Sir Ian and his many contributors are willing to revisit previous conclusions, especially when the earlier assessment and conclusion was as "right" as right can be. Outstanding job, Sir Ian.

So in practice insted of using a stock you use your forearm as a stock and your biceps as a cushion. Interesting concept and it works well in practice

Excellent video, thank You. I appreciate the knowledge. It is improving my shooting.

Thank you for bringing this content forgotten weapons kind sir. The practical application of shooting techniques shown coupled with your personal review (and vetting the chaff from the wheat, no doubt) of them are a welcome and worthwhile addition to the channel as far as this interested follower is concerned. Being from a different country with much more restrictive fire arm laws, even when in a shooting club and with a fire arm license, the techniques shown are not something that we can put in to practice here. Very informative to view. Allowing others with an interesting or innovative approach to training and use of firearms like this to shine on your channel, giving them a stage...a class act mr. McCollum. Following your channel with much pleasure from the Netherlands. With kind regards.

Pistol grip shotguns are like snub nosed .357 or .44 mag J-Frames. Definitely expert or dufus grade. There’s almost no in between.

In the first video he said in the conclusion that this was an expert's weapon, I feel like that conclusion still stands. Ultimately I feel like a shotgun with a stock is probably more intuitive under pressure and more useful to any other friends who haven't taken the time to train this way. I liked the first video and I like this video too, this was very interesting

I love the Shockwave and it is my go to bump in the night weapon. Just add a Streamlight TL-Racker forearm and you're GTG.

always good to learn a new method!