You mention tunnels but don't forget the snow sheds they had.

It’s also worth mentioning that the cab forward design won an industrial design award back in the day, and 4294 itself is a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark. A very SP way to solve a unique problem.

One of our engineers on the excursion line is an expert on this thing. He's a treasure for three big reasons: 1. He operated this locomotive itself 2. He was a mechanical engineer for SP who joined the operations aspect, so he knows every square inch of the beast 3. He has stories of these beasts that could make you cry

Hyce, I am 73 years old and enjoy watching your videos. My great uncle was an SP engineer out of Eugene,OR. (I was born there. but never lived there). He worked for SP his entire life and ran Cab Forwards and other locomotive over the Natron Cutoff and other routes. The Natron Cutoff had a big helper yard at Oakridge, OR. My Grandparents moved to Oakridge in the late 50's. I used to spend two or three weeks every summer with them and enjoyed every one of them as I was a kid from the big city of Portland ,OR. Their house was about two blocks from the SP mainline. Steam was gone but it was fun watching the trains. My great uncle died when I was young and I didn't get to know him. I wish I had known him as he probably had some great stories to tell about railroading from the 1890's to the 1950's.

The failed German Cab Forward 05 003 also is an interesting Tale. It failed because it was designed to burn Oil but then was changed to Coal Dust, for Strategic Reasons that probably explain themselves in 1930ies Germany. It suffered constant Combustion Issues because the Coal Dust couldn't be blown steady through the Fuel Piping that was designed for Oil. Following these Issues, the Locomotive was turned around to a conventional Design with Cab at the Back, and the streamlined Shell was removed too.

This is why I love how Southern Pacific has the prettiest and powerful locomotives especially the 4-8-4 and the cab forwards. Plus 4449 is still rolling.

5:34 While designed primarily for freight service, the SP used the cab-forwards for passenger service with some regularity. That valve supplies steam for passenger car heating.

I never knew about the hose situation from the temder to the locomotive, but the crazy design makes sense and gives me another new appreciation for the cab forwards.

5:57 so the cab forward is a 3/4-idiot-certified Brett-sized locomotive? LOL. 😂

I'd only heard of cab-forwards as a name. I didn't realize it's not just cab-forward, it's Whole Damn Locomotive Bass-Ackward. Including the articulated engine set. What a bizarrely beautiful machine. Although I see the point about _not being in the crumple zone_ if you hit something. Thanks for the video! Another great learning experience!!

My favorite design feature is the earliest cab forwards and articulateds blew the roofs off the snowsheds on Donner Pass. So instead of some uber high tech blast nozzle or exhaust system, they just stuck a metal bar across the stacks. Low budget, low tech, and worked like a treat

Loading Gauge is such an interesting topic. In South Africa, our main network is Cape Standard Gauge (3'6" / 1067mm) yet our loading gauge is bigger than the UK's which runs on standard gauge track.

Getting around the smoke in tunnels problem is a fascinating part of railroad history. You can satisfy all kinds of foamers. Cab forewards, Portal to portal electric, or T motors. Great video on the cab forward!

As much as I love steam locomotives the more I watch of Hyce the more the switch to Diesel Electric from not just a business standpoint but plain common sense and simplicity makes sense. On an unrelated note I didn't know anything narrower than RGW existed in the US. Crazy to think about something that massive on that narrow a gauge!

SP had the tunnels and snow sheds to contend with, but they also had oil. I guess it’s not remembered very well these days, but the California oil fields were a big deal back in the day. Oil was cheaper than coal for the Southern Pacific. Even later, in my lifetime, I remember the oil pumps by the side of the freeway as a sign that we were getting close to LA. So cheap oil, expensive coal, and the tunnels and snowsheds combined to make cab-forwards more attractive to the SP than anyone else.

How railroads handled their tunnels would definitely be an interesting video. I know for a fact that my home railroad, the Boston and Maine, has a kind of funny story regarding the locomotives it uses for its big tunnel the Hoosac. The Boston and Maine found that the ventilation systems the tunnel had weren't cutting it, so in an attempt to reduce smoke and fumes, they bought 4 oil-burning 2-6-6-2 Mallet type engines. Called the M-1 class they did not perform well enough and were sold off to the Maine Central when the tunnel was electrified less than a year later. Once the Maine Central got the M-1s they were converted to coal burners, renumbered, and reclassified as the X class and ran the Crawford Notch grade until being retired in 1935.

Another few facts worth mentioning (I may have done a little reading about cab forwards lol). The air pump exhaust was SIGNIFICANTLY louder that portrayed in the museum. The deck between the smokebox and the tender was referred to as “the monkey deck” because hobos often hitched rides up there. The more modern cab forwards were also equipped to handle passenger trains, having a steam heat line. Those who REALLY wanna deep dive into these things, should find a copy of Cab Forward by Dr Robert J Church. Hard fo find but a good edition to a foamer library.

4:17 This is a certified pew-pew moment Silliness aside, this was an excellent video! A really great presentation on the fascinating design of these unique beasts

I went to the California State Railroad Museum once growing up. We were taking the Amtrak from Reno to Seattle, and you swap from the Zephyr to the Starlight in Sacramento. It's like a 9 hour transfer (you get in to SAC at 1500, then leave at like 23:50) which with the museum almost literally right next door is a perfect opportunity to stop by. I remember seeing the cab forward and thinking "well ain't that more then just a little goofy"

0:20 that tree top lurking over the roof of the building looked a bit like a bigfoot easteregg :D

I've heard that at least one other railroad (Western Pacific? Rio Grande?) considered buying cab forwards as well. Maybe the Grande, I could see this being useful in the 6-mile Moffat Tunnel. And of course, the same miles and miles of tunnels and snowsheds that birthed the Cab Forwards later led to the Tunnel Motors that you've also done a video on. Meanwhile, Great Northern opted just to electrify their tunnel, first the 2-ish mile one and then the 8-ish mile one. The wires came down in 1956, right about the same time the Cab Forwards were retired.

I got to admit that little rinky dink cab forward thing you showed at the end of the video was pretty cute I do hope that one of these video games that are out or will be coming out features this locomotive in it because I've been dying to play it ever since I found out it was a possibility it was going to get added to railroads online. And id like to say that I do agree with hyce let's all please support our local railroads if you are anywhere in South Carolina please please go to the South Carolina railroad museum they are desperately in need of funding to support rebuilding a steam locomotive that they have sitting outside it needs a new boiler and a lot of other things and they're trying to raise money to get it fixed.

Mark, I'm so glad you made this video! I remember awhile back asking you about a video like this, so I'm glad we got the HYCE stamp!

Thanks for another great video. You mentioned that some railroads ran their diesel locomotives Lon hood forward, one of these was the Norfolk and Western. They were one of the last to abandon steam, one reason was it was a “coal road” and stayed “loyal” to their customers. The locomotive crews almost refused to run the diesel short hood forward, so they bought their early hood units set up to run long hood forward. As you said the crews were concerned about safety.

Short answer is the sp had lots of snowsheds and putting the cab in front allowed the crew to be in front of the smokestack, the crew being in front of the smokestack kept the crew from suffocating due to smoke in the tunnels and snow sheds. I drove one of these in trainsim 2017 and had a lot of trouble with starting on slopes

There are two reasons why the SP had the tunnel issues that caused the cab forwards: Snow and Rock The heavy, wet snow of the Sierra Nevada mountains is nicknamed sierra cement for a reason. It is so relatively wet, more slush than snow, that overnight it freezes solid. And so much falls on Donner pass that Union Pacific has two teams of rotary plows with two plows per team for that pass alone. Their third team is for the rest of their system. That much snow, and the avalanches it caused, led the Central Pacific, later Southern Pacific, to connect the tunnels together with snow sheds. 40 miles of snow sheds at one point. As for the rock, the route over the Sierras, Donner pass, is almost entirely granite. Hard, tough granite that took years of blasting to dig through in the first place, averaging 2ft per day. And the longest was over 1600 feet long at the time. In the 1920s, the route was realigned with a two mile long tunnel to cut 1.3 miles off the total length and 130 feet lower in elevation at the summit. Even with this new tunnel, it was prohibitively expensive to add the large ventilation tunnels and shafts that other railroads used.

I live near Sacramento and the museum is a great visit. Roseville also has a display of old locomotives. Thanks Hyce for this presentation.

My grandparents store their camping trailer in the shops where they were built. Unfortunately UP is buying it back from the guy they leased it to to use as a storage facility to tear it down. I have a bunch of pictures thankfully.

Hi Mark, this 101 episode about the why of a cab forward was fascinating. Gigantic choo-choo, Omg! Being a beginner, I hadn’t thought about this feature. Thanks for your excellent and succinct explanation. Also, what a great exhibit being able to enter the cab and actually sit in the fireman and engineer’s seats to examine the controls and all that. I echo your statement, Mark, about how beautifully the trains are preserved and exhibited at the California State RR Museum. They even include sounds that’s so cool! Loved hearing Brett’s observations, two experts conversing-can’t get any better! The 4294 is magnificent for sure and I hope to see this and the museum in person someday. Many, many thanks for yet another A+++ classroom field trip session and, as always, cheers to you Professor!

I've been to that museum many times. It's a must-see stop for any railroad enthusiast. And there's plenty to see even for non-choo-choo folks. That is certainly one impressive locomotive, especially being able to get into the cab. Standing next to the driving wheels is also a pretty awesome experience. Thanks for the video.

Another wonderful Hyce video, so cool to learn about the big Choo Choo. Such a unique piece of history and the opening shot of you standing next to it really puts its size into perspective.

Just a random, off topic comment: In the early 2000's I use to work at the Milwaukee PBS station. We had several shows we produced, some of which were carried nationally to all the other PBS stations. One of those shows was called Tracks Ahead. I'm guessing you've probably heard of it. I used to work on that show alongside the producer and after watching several episodes of your show, I have to say that I'm getting serious Tracks Ahead vibes off your content. Keep up the good work.

TY Hyce!! very informative!!

What an amazing video! I was just in Strasburg at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Saw some amazing equipment, including a couple of Heisler Fireless. Also, Norfolk and Western 475 under steam.

Can’t wait to wach it! You’re my fav KZfaqr dude. The rio grande really did love there fat af engines. THE BLOWDOWN OUSIDE WTF😂😂😂. Thanks for sharing the awesome vid dude, you’re the best.

Shout out to you for getting the museum out there as a long time member of the museum we spend every weekend there and it’s hardly ever busy.

This is the only big railroad museum ive been to! Back in 2015 when we took a trip down to san diego to visit family, we stopped by here. Fantastic experience

There were still some in service when I was a little kid. A most impressive sight was seeing one leading a long string of yellow/orange Pacific Fruit Express reefers, possibly as many as 100, with a tuscan red bay window caboose heading silently north past the Lockheed plant in Burbank to cooler climes. Also got to see the 4449 which was then "our" locomotive, maintained in reserve in L.A.

I’ve been there quite a few times, and I love it there! The cab-forward is one of my favorite things they have, along with the A.T.S.F. F.7, and the S.P. snowblower. I love going down there!

Great video matey @Hyce , was hoping you'd cover the majestic Cab Forward at some point, just too bad that this locomotive will likely never be restored to operating condition 😢. Keep up the awesome work mate 👍🙂

Thank you for showing the cab layout. Living in Australia, it is unlikely that I would get to see the cab forward in person so this video is much appreciated. Yes the gauge glasses might be behind you, but you would not always be watching them, only glancing at them every so often, more so the fireman than the engineer. The control and gauge layout seems appropriate for the time and the needs, the only fear being so close to the front if there is something on the track that should not be there.

Here in the UK, we had a similar loco, a steam loco that looks like a diesel called the Bullied Leader, an 0-6-0+0-6-0 with cabs at both ends, and the fireman cab in the middle so can run either direction. Instead of a separate tender, its all built in one. Front half is the boiler, the rear half is the "tender" part that holds the coal and water.

8:29 What is this beautiful abomination of mechanical engineering? 😮 (As a ferroequinologist, I am drawn to the stranger-looking Locomotives, because they usually have quite the story behind them.)

This thing was probably the biggest (literally) highlight of my trip there. Getting to sit in the cab of that thing is just awesome.

I appreciate this the more I learn about it. At first I ignored it or just didn't pay much to it but I appreciate it. Genius

Great video and fun fact for you. The UK had cab forward locomotives too. They were found on the Glyn Valley Tramway and these were 2ft 4inc locomotives with an 0-4-0 layout and were designed as a cab forward and had skirts covering all the motion and the sides of the engine. To meet the rules of the tramway they had to give an un obstructed view for the driver, a speedometer and limiter to 10mph and they had turntables at each end of the tramway to turn the engine.

What I find interesting is that despite having similar performance to UP's big boy, 4294 and the other cab forwards were built to very exact specifications; While their outward appearances changed over time, the AC-12s were fundamentally the same locomotives as the AC-6s under the hood, and in fact some earlier cab forwards were rebuilt with newer front ends after wrecks or just when SP decided it was time to upgrade them, these engines became nearly indistinguishable from their wartime sisters. This isn't to say they didn't receive upgrades over time or you can't tell them apart, you can, and they did, but from the AC-4 through to the AC-12 they never changed the core fundamentals of the design: the boiler, firebox, and wheelbase all stayed _exactly_ the same. Additional fun fact: SP's AC-9s were also built to these same dimensions as well, except reversed, so they truly were "reverse cab forwards" down to the millimeter. Ever wondered what 4294 would look like setup cab-front? there's your answer. That's literally how a reversed cab forward looks.

4294 is one if the most impressive pieces in the museum's collection. It's always fun to go see.

I knew this thing was big, but didn't know it was THAT big. Cool video on a class that... doesn't get talked about hardly at all.

Really a cool loco! Nice =)

Such a cool and mesmerizing piece of American Engineering at its finest! Great museum and excellent locomotive!

Good job, honestly, you made a great video I liked it.Hope he had a good time at the trade show by jack

Listening to your point and seeing the front-end at 8:00, I'm reminded of the gas-powered railcars of the era. Collisions with grade-crossing traffic had a good chance of not ending well for the operator.

Another great video Hyce!! I wonder how much having an enclosed cab added to crew comfort, especially up in the Sierras!

It’s amazing they can build so many of these machines with such complexity especially back in those days! And good luck that one of those components don’t fail in a dangerous manner.

I went to the museum during my ninth birthday which is 2019 and when I saw 4294 i thought to myself it be nice to restore the locomotive but the money the place to store here and the place to run her it’s just a a lot of work but I hope someday some one will restore here

One other cab-forward engine I wish made it into preservation was SP 4126.

Having lived in SP territory all my life, some of my favorite steamers are designs the Southern Pacific used. One of the first books about trains I had as a kid was a brief overview of several different steam locomotives, and the first one in that book was an AC-class articulated.

Holy crap this engine is MASSIVE, I come from the UK and this is just gargantuan. Most of the trains here aren’t this huge!

Hyce, you need your own railroad TV program.

I love the AC-1 because SP went "Alright, MC-1 kinda shit... Let's flip it around and try that"

Should have a look at a loco on the other southern railway here in the UK called the leader class. thanks for taking the time to produce you videos.

My favorite steam locomotive……..excellent video 👍

By the way, the K-36 and K-37 class like the 491 shown in the outro his simply incredible track record. Out of the 20 that have been built, 17 still exist and 13 are still in working condition. Incredible, after basically 100 years. Many of the much newer locomotive types cannot be described like that.

The smoke in the tunnels was bad but also the snow sheds. SP had a lot of snow sheds. The device located right over the center of the twin stacks is a smoke splitter to lessen the exhaust damage to the roofs of the snow sheds. I don't think I have to ask what your Dead Head friends favorite Dead tune is. Side note: Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter often had trains mentioned in the songs they wrote for the Dead.

Dude I love going to this museum so much, I just went a few weeks ago in fact

I love can forwards, it like a SW8 mixed with a big boy, SP is just that dang special kid.😂

Cab forwards. Because SP duplex cabover semi steamer is real and *will* hurt you

whoa, that's huge! at first i thought you'd green screened a miniature you in front of it for the intro

Interesting article. Thank you.

As a fan of the SP, and most of my models are of them.....I know it's gone... but the Daylight, the Black Widows, cabooses, and assorted other units ....including the Heritage Unit....well.... they all still make me happy when I see them.

I got to see the last Railfair in 99 in Sacramento as a five year old, still have some great memories of it :)

I know it won’t for a long list of reasons, but if any engine would be cool to see in steam again it’d be this one for me.

Wasn't there an incident where those long oil lines came back to bite them? I don't remember the specific story, but an oil line failed and dumped a bunch of oil on the rails. That was enough to cause the locomotive to wheelslip something fierce, and the resulting slack action caused a knuckle to fail and the train to dump, leaving the crew stranded in the tunnel as it filled with smoke and the fire spread. I don't think that was enough to stop SP from using them, but I remember hearing about something like that from, (I think) Train of Thought's channel.

Fingers crossed for a 101 vid on the CP Huntington.

Always my favorite at the museum since I first went there as a child. Last time I was there the guy behind me in line was saying this was a bussman's holiday for him as he usually worked on the rotary plow. I think he meant he repaired it. He was grinning like a kid.

Been there a number of times and it is a wonderful museum.

Short answer: so the engineers and firemen didn’t pass out in Southern Pacific’s long tunnels and snow sheds.

I love that I’ve been able to see 4294 so many times. It’s such a beautiful and interesting steam engine! ❤👍😁

Cool locomotive thanks

I've seen these things run in simulations and am convinced that the air compressor would have driven me nuts had I actually had to drive one. It's also worth noting that many late steam engine designs that tried to compete with diesels but never got built also considered using a cab-forward design.

ive been to that mueseum, it is so fun, they have a second story where they have model railroads and trains, its so cool and fun

Having never seen one of these in person, I didn't realize that they were so narrow. Makes it even more strange to look at, as if being backwards wasn't unusual enough.

It's said that the last cab forward locomotive is preserved "ready to run." It would be amazing to see this locomotive to run again.

My family was members of the SAC rail museum for years. You should go check out the Roseville yard to the north next time or the old Donner snow tunnels on the summit

I’m not sure if the museum has a detailed analysis of the complete condition of the Cab Forward. This unit was saved at the last moment and pieced together since scrapping on her had already begun. They cobbled together nearly everything and welded it up to look presentable and I think they did a great job. I’m guessing the main chassis/frame is unmolested and that’s what matters but the side rods and other main rods are from other units so they aren’t aligned and would require major work if not completely new rods and saddle pistons. Each locomotive is unique, a majority of the drive parts are not interchangeable to identical locomotives as we’re used to today. Like others, I wish with all I have that we could get a Cab Forward running again but it’ll take a lot more than is possible.

I love that locomotive. I have to dedicate a significant amount of visit time to admiring that beast.

I was at the museum in the 80 ‘s. I saw this engine. It’s a monster.

The Pennsylvania Railroad had an early electric known as the P5a, which was a boxcab electric. The cabs were located on each end of the locomotive until a grade crossing accident on the New York Division killed the crew when they struck an apple truck stuck on the crossing. After most P5a were redeveloped into the P5a (modified) which had a center "steeple cab" design, similar to the in prototyping GG1 and R1 electrics

2:02 i just keep thinking that surely it would be easier to make a tender that can run first at high speed cant possibly be as hard as the effort they went to to try and put the cab at the other end lol

From what I recall there’s a mirror mounted to the fireman can see the sight glass without looking over his shoulder.

It’s an awesome engine I had the privilege of sitting in the engineers seat on this locomotive about 6 years ago and one of the museum’s guides showed me all the engineers controls

Left out the miles of snow sheds that covered the line over the sierra mountains . They was a plan to send this cabforward on a tour but the cost and time needed to overhaul it was to high.

I have got to see Southern Pacific Cab Forward 4294 displayed here at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, California. It’s a amazing big steam locomotive at the museum. We could’ve also had another SP Cab Forward preserved with that being Southern Pacific Cab Forward 4274. Which could’ve been displayed at the Western Railway Museum in Suisun City, California. Since it was known for being the last steam locomotive that the SP operated, even when operating at Donnor Pass.

I still think the cab belongs in the middle. Lets hear it for the fairlies!!!! :P Great stuff as always Hyce!

Thanks! This cleared up a question I had about cab-forwards since I first heard about them: were the engineer and fireman "reversed" so they were on the "correct" side going forward

Very interesting engine!

Very nice 👌🏿

I'd love to see your reaction/opinion of NZR Class Locomotives. Various locomotives that ran on New Zealand's Railways.

I've seen this many times and I still cannot get over the way this thing looks like a San Francisco streetcar and a Challenger loved each other very much in the fifth circle of hell.