Same!!

Oh fuck yea. He would take FOREVER to do shopping and try to get the stupidest things

Some of the funniest scenes in crit role history are shopping related. But Orion had a knack of making it unbearable. It always had to be a success. Matt would try to explain that you can’t just find anything in any quantity you want. And he would go on…and on….and on. I think Travis has really done well especially recently recovering from these experiences and doing shopping with his own spin but it took him some time.

I hate them too. For the same reason. Everyone takes god damn forever to buy a fucking potion.

@@briaseis I also have ADHD, so I know.

Although I agree with him being disposable, he wasn't part of the campaign at the point of the animates series start which I believe was done on purpose.

@@Yankeesoccer Thank you for the correction. It may have also been because…let’s be honest, the beginning of campaign 1 was a complete shitshow. We don’t need 5 episodes of the party stumbling around in the dark fighting Duerengar. 🤣

I mean true but also remember that the show cuts out quite a chunk of stuff that the other characters did as well 🤣, so it isn’t just his absence that benefits story progression they are also cutting out all of the stuff that wouldn’t of made good TV story progression I also disagree with you on the beginning of the show being a shit show that might be your personal opinion but you might also have too high of standards because all you’ve seen now is the current stuff, it’s like looking at an old video game and then looking at the most current in the series and saying that the original game was a shit show, they didn’t have the budget that they have now, One of them literally met Felicia Day at a party & told her about their Home game and she’s in told them that she had a spot at geek and sundry and they should do a live series of their home game. They didn’t come out swinging with a big budget And personally I would’ve loved to see their actual meeting of Lady Kima rather than “oh here’s this random Halfling with gold armor within this group of other random people”

@@Myrathosghost I agree with you on Kima, and maybe my reaction to the old stuff was partially colored by Orión. I get the feeling Alora, kima, and Gilmore will get more screen time now that the second season is confirmed.

@@gavinschaber3578 Fair enough, glad you enjoyed it. That was just my opinion. 😊

I figured he wanted to make a telekinesis-based death ray for the big bad they were going to face. Just my thoughts, tho

@@guildwarrior3232 he was definitely going for the Archimedes death ray

And that mirror project was him stealing Taliesin's idea for the death ray.

Excellent observation. Even further, Tiberius was played as kind of pretentious aristocrat. However Percy was very similar in those character traits and Taliesin was miles better at acting it.

@@guildwarrior3232 i remember around that time, there was a big dnd reddit " i how i broke the DM" stories going around. this is Wat it felt like. you had a bunch of players who were fixated on beating the game dnd, rather then playing/experiencing dnd. it was a bunch of people encouraging the idea that the DM was actually the Big Bad Guy of the campaign, who had to be outsmarted and defeated. Orian exuded this Tee Heee imma Outsmart Matt and beat His Big Bad with my deus ex machina machine. it was also a thing his fans encouraged at the time, so it just enabled his power meta gaming at the table, which every game was getting more and more severe. to the point orian was just badgering Matt for custom game breaking items, putting Matt on the spot, making his Job so much harder to do as is, during a live show with chat.

I remember that. My thought at the time was something like, "This game is too easy if you can waste a spell on that."

Haha you beat me to saying which episode it was

didn't she get a nat 20 too? i would've been FURIOUS if someone took a clutch nat 20 move like that away from me

​@@ReginaCordium722 No nat 20, but she did get a roll of 35, which probably was enough

minute marker is 1:32 (edit, on the episode 16, not this video obv)

I didn't know metagamign what cheating

NOT a fan of Tiberius NOR Orion, but in his defense about him thinking his magic items would be doing more/work differently; Someone explained to me that they (Critrole) used to play a different version of DnD, but swapped for their streams because of the new version seeming more "viewer friendly" (if i recall correctly), and thus, a lot of items had changed. Not saying he didnt use that to his advantage, just a plausible explanation for that one instance of cheating i heard from somewhere.

Not to mention how much gold he had. By the end everyone was starting to get very suspicious regarding how much money he still had left.

The original video does talk about it but this one skipped a little bit.

The cheating is what gets me most. Like, its SO FUCKING EASY to flub things in DnD, especially if you abuse the trust your DM gives you. Ive had people cheat with everything from adding 1 gold every session, to BSing rolls, to adding a point to their stats every now and then, and as DMs you MUST keep track of this stuff. But to do this shit,, ON STREAM, with THOUSANDS of people watching with scrutinizing eyes? Youd have to be totally stupid to think someone wouldnt notice.

honestly there's so many examples of this. No Mercy Percy blows off a stableboy's hand and ruthlessly murders another dude? well, Tiberius is Also going to brutally murder an innocent. Never mind how Percy's character is carefully setup for him to snap like this and he continues to show inner conflict and guilt over his actions, whereas Tiberius moves onto the next thing that gets him attention. Though, i think the only person Tiberius doesn't mimic is Keyleth, who- at this time- was notoriously shat on by the community at this time. I think. Too much material to sort through. Either way, at this point Tiberius isn't a character- he's a collection of cool things from other characters shoved into a single conduit.

I didn't watch much of C1, what episode did you give up in?

@@breezycaesar i wouldn't say gave up, but i started at ep 24 and haven't had the balls to look through the earlier ones lol. i briefly looked at ep 18 for a quote but the audio was so crusty i nearly cried

@@julietofthebriar If/ when you get to *_that_* episode (ep 27) and the interminable downtime/ shopping spree is getting you down; skipping to 2:40:00 bypasses the worst of it but lets you catch Orion's last attempt to interject something Tib's would have done "On the first day". I suggest this only because it gives a few seconds of example for how completely done with Orion's shit the table was and because watching Matt slap it down in an (imho) epically entertaining fashion is fun af. Plus there's still a cute bit where Taliesin does some translating to wash off any remaining cringe! ;^) Or just catch Consequences and Cows (ep 26) and start up on The Sun Tree (Ep. 28). Catching eps. 23-25 is good for Percy backstory, since the end of 23 is when they're first mentioned and the feast and introductory battle with the Briarwoods happen therein; but that's also where some of the *_most_* cringe Orion decisions occur and there are plenty of synopsis videos out there to get the same info from. But Consequences and Cows is just too fun to miss, and episode 28 is the start of a shiny, new, Orion-free experience!

@@BoojumFed i already watched 27. as a dm i think it's important for me to recognize problem characters, tension in the table, and how to handle it. but god that whole episode was a mess. matt is an incredibly good dm, but this is a situation where being a live show works to their detriment. if it were me, i would have stopped the session, halted the rp, and had a talk about behavior at the table. Of course, Matt didn't really have this option. They had that discussion behind closed doors and away from prying eyes, which is prob the best thing that could have been done, but the gameplay and roleplay still suffers for it. at least 26 was interesting cause matt is showing the characters the consequences of their actions. man did a remarkable job of addressing the team's murderhobo tendencies and getting them to care about the world around them, it's kind of impressive. he also played Percy and his inner conflict remarkably well, i'm glad to have seen it. that's not even talking abt the cows lol. by contrast ep 27 is such a slog that i'm skimming through the comments for timestamps. hopefully your advice can help some of the other ppl in these comments lol.

He also abused his girlfriend at the time. She came forward with voicemails of him screaming at her...I heard them back in the day. It was crystal clear verbal abuse. Very very gross. So that on top of his fucking over that person taking the money he raised for them and buying things HE wanted with the money.( Also as far as I know he absolutely never made it right and ghosted the person. I've never heard of him eventually giving the money to them...they just never got the money.)...he's trash. 🤷‍♀️ And there's hard evidence of his horrific horrific behavior out of game as well.

Wow news to me haha.

@@taylorjohnson5148 yeah, he bought streaming equipment with the charity money, IIRC. And the person he raised the money for... NEVER got it....so yeah, pretty fucking shitty behavior tbh.

@@AnxietyRat I thought he did turned over the money in the end. Have to find those threads again.

@@BananaBLACK as far as I know, he never did because he spent it all on other things. From what I saw of screenshots and stuff...the person never got the money. He ghosted the person or just stopped responding when they would prompt him for the money..and so the person just gave up asking bc they knew it was lost cause. But I could be misinformed!

Telekinesis is a crazy op spell in all honesty but you're right that's literally overkill

If/ when you get to *_that_* episode (ep 27) and the interminable downtime/ shopping spree is getting you down; skipping to 2:40:00 bypasses the worst of it but lets you catch Orion's last attempt to interject something Tib's would have done "On the first day". I suggest this only because it gives a few seconds of example for how completely done with Orion's shit the table is and Matt slaps it down in an (imho) epically entertaining fashion, and there's still a cute bit where Taliesin does some translating to wash off any remaining cringe. ;^)

@@BoojumFed Thanks. I'm up to ep 25 now, so nearly there. Yeah it's really cringe, but I am determined to stick with it. I feel like its a case of learning what I can from this situation, and looking for how it can make me a better person/ player.

@@Alister222222 As someone else just mentioned to me, these seem to be cases where being a live show hurt them more than helped them. At a table you have the option to stop things completely and have a discussion with folks about what exactly the player is trying to get out of the situation and get everyone back on the same page meta-wise; but in a *_live_* show that's not really a tool in the bag. I wonder if that's not a main why issues began. Between the system shift (Pathfinder to 5e) dramatically altering characters abilities mechanics leaving folks uncertain what they _could_ do and the live-show pressure to always be an interesting watch things couldn't help but be different from the home game they were playing up to that point, so some teething problems were inevitable; but without the opportunity to hit pause and let folks calm down and talk it out the variety of different ways people handle and mishandle those stresses just kept snowballing... Still not an excuse, but the real-life plot development suddenly became easier to follow now that it's been pointed out to me... TD;DR: Live shows ain't normal games.

Yeah Tiberius tried that quite a lot. He would often try to bend spells to his will, such as using his ice blast spell and deciding he wanted to hit every enemy in a hallway he was in the middle of so he just decides he can use the spell with both hands and attack everything. This was when Delilah sends the undead to kill the carriage driver so he doesn't talk. There was also some other metagaming in that scene as much of vox machina were not at the fight when it started.

I remember thinking as an experienced DM... "I have to watch this train wreck in the making; either the show flops hard due to Diva Player Syndrome or they deal with the DP and the show enjoys some minor success." I have never been both so right and so wrong at the same time... (minor success lol) I really thought Orion was going to rage quit in spectacular Diva Player fashion during the Kima reveal.

That's a good way to view it; I believe in the whole "there is an equal and opposite reaction" thing; every good or bad thing has an opposite effect. The Matt Mercer effect of people wanting to be exactly like Critical Role cause it's cool and awesome is stupid and should be abolished. However, aspiring to be like that in the sense of being a DM that assists and drives the players to expanding their characters and crafting a better world and narrative is exactly what any good DM does, and Matt Mercer is that, thus, the good side of the Matt Mercer effect; making DMs who wish to grow as DMs know a good example of a great DM, and thus aspire to follow in the footsteps of helping the players reach their full potential in their story they wish to tell alongside that which the DM sets the framework for.

I mean shopping is incredibly fucking boring. One stop at a shop is fine, spending several hours shopping is not entertaining for anyone but the person buying things.

Unless you can get up to a funny scenario or make it entertaining.. I'd argue that most things where a character goes off for shopping should be brief and just told by the DM "So and so buys something, and he's back an hour later".. With Nott it works because she's doing dodgy shit early on.. But even then its not 30 minutes, its a quick 5 minute thing as they go on.

@@traviscue2099 Yeah, having one interesting encounter and everything else being done with handwaving is the way to go. Pumat Sol is an example of that. A bit of cool shopping at an interesting place with interesting people, being followed up by some more general shopping that is done swiftly. When I play, I tend to just write a list of everything I want to buy, and see if I can find it all. And if the DM wants to RP out one of the item purchases, then that works out for me.

@@simonwilliamnoelmurray9179 Also gotta read the vibe from those you're with. If there's someone everyone doesn't like doing shit they don't like, its naturally going to piss people off haha

He’s gotten A LOT better about them if you go watch C3. He even threatened a shop keeper on a solo run.

Sincere question, do they keep the same stats in campaign 1 for Liam using "luck" to reroll his dice? And do they also keep the same stats for Laura rolling "cocked" rolls and therefore getting a redo when they weren't high enough? This is something I'd noticed often before Orion left and it just about got out of control after he was gone, that I was always surprised at the twins never getting called out for getting freebie advantage rolls as often as they did. Has to be at least once per episode iirc

​@@edgomez933What even is a "cocked" roll, why does it happen so often to one person specifically, and why do you get to reroll it for free infinitely? It's not a d100 and it's super fucking easy to tell what you rolled 99.9% of the time with all the other dice.

​@@krodmandoon3479cocked dice happen all the time when you're rolling into a dice tray. They prop themselves up on an edge in a weird way between two numbers, have you never seen it?

​@@edgomez933you also get 3 luck points per long rest with the Lucky feat, and Liam kept track of every luck point he used, and if he accidentally tried to use 4 in a long rest, matt would call him out. Learn your rules dude. Lucky is a great feat and 3 rerolls per long rest is the whole reason to take it.

@@krodmandoon3479 A cocked die can happen if it's leaning against a wall awkwardly, or is half off a thin stack of paper so half on half off, or falls in the crack of a book spine, or if a surface is uneven, or ticked in a corner of the dice tray. Bear in mind these aren't casino dice, they can sometimes be decorative or have rounded edges.

I don't think much of anything would have happend "otherwise . . . " because I don't believe Travis to be a violent person or someone who would threaten violence unless in self-defense. But I do believe that he would have given Orion an earfull.

@@Nr4747 yeah agree Travis is a gentle giant and a teddiebear of a man. He probably wouldn't have punched Orion out (lord knows he probably wanted too though) the guy is so lucky Travis is an insanely nice Person

Any negative response to that is fucking hilarious. They were a bunch of degens the lot of them, Travis' character, a whoremonger along with his best bud. The sexual advances and acts committed by the rest, like showing their tits or sucking off under the bath etc. It was just weird to alienate him for somethin they all did, also towards one another all the time. So any cringe comment about I can't believe he did this or the rest of the cast was right in their crazy timing to be uncharacteristically offended above table is hilarious.

there isn’t an otherwise.

I respect Travis holding it down. Becuase how many of us can say we'll be that collected if someone said or did something towards our partner(s)

I think it's less formal than that, probably just that not a single person involved benefits from anyone talking about it.

@@0saintclark0 I think that it was actually at least a legally binding agreement they worked out, I don't know if they put it into a written contract. They might have not discussed what would happen if one broke the agreement and things like that, but it would still hold up in court.

The actual business of Critical Role came a long time after that, so I doubt it. It's just they would ratyer this be buried.

@@bessieburnet9816 "The actual business of Critical Role came a long time after that.." True, but they were under the auspice of Geek & Sundry at that point, and it was very much an established business. If there was an NDA (a distinct possibility), it would have been under their instruction, since Orion was removed from their streaming channel.

It's also just the professional thing to do.

@Sidney D She actually rolled a 35. A THIRTY-FIVE! Can you imagine jumping in to hog the spotlight after someone gets a 35? Here's the actual clip: m.kzfaq.info/get/bejne/m9KRpa-e2qrYqok.html

@@ZzZ-qd1zo Yeah, that was the point where I stopped trying to give him the benefit of the doubt my first watch through. I still kinda feel for the guy's away-from-table issues, but if you're that desperate to be the main character, just make life easier for yourself and everyone around you and play a video game.

well having a pet isnt really something only one party member can have

@@clubs9491 The problem was Orion didn't treat Lockheed like a pet that he cared about or had a tangible connection to Tibbs' backstory, he only ever interacted with him when Vex had a moment with Trinket and he wanted to remind everyone "hey I have a pet too." Their most notable "bonding" moments were primarily attempting to speedrun command training, and I think once or twice he had Lockheed nuzzle up to one of the party during a tense moment. Compare this to the literal dozens if not hundreds of little roleplay moments between Vex and Trinket (or Vax and Trinket, or Grog and Trinket, or literally everybody else and Trinket) and it's all about breaking the tension of the moment or genuinely interacting with the group puppy (basically) because they *love* him. Trinket was treated like a friend, Lockheed was treated like a tool.

@@disasterjones5798 So what I’m getting is Orion/Tiberius was the kid who will get salty if another kid starts playing with a toy he was previously ignoring.

I've had to get onto a player myself about that kind of behavior. As in I really had to put my foot down. They have improved since then, but the fact that I can nod along and see the same issues is distressing.

Even more annoying when the reason for that was using metagame knowledge about fighting the Beholder in its *lair*

@@dmtaboo_truth7052 Also the metagame knowledge about the anti-magic field meaning that he wouldn't get to be the main character/hero in the fight.

@@_bats_ Yes that too

What's more annoying is when he knows vm is winning and almost there to kill kvarn he goes back and wants to do the last hit and after the encounter, he have the audacity to tell them that he saves them all

I've seen a few defenders of Orion constantly bring this point up and saying stuff like "what about when Sam as Scanlan said..." blah blah blah. There's one KZfaqr in particular (I forget who he is) who tends to bring that part up... you know, as if the "Half Chub" line was the ONLY reason Orion wasn't on the show anymore... What a lot of people like him can't seem to get through their heads is when Scanlan was pervy... 1. It was part of his character as a horny bard, and 2. Sam actually knew how / when to pick his moments. Orion couldn't do that. Also, not everyone's relationship on that show is the same as everyone else's. Like just because they're cool with one person doing / saying something doesn't mean they're gonna feel comfortable when another person does or says something. That's not how this works. Unfortunately, Orion (nor his defenders, for that matter) can seem to understand that.

@@TylerHBHamilton there is a user just named dave004 who has spammed that episodes comments with exactly that same bollocks defense to nearly every comment thread discussing it but always makes sure to qualify it with "I am not defending orion" and then when people disagree or raise points against what he said he either ignores them completely or gives his troll nature away by replying with things along the lines of "i shouldnt have expected anything better from you with you teen crush on crit role" and I honestly can't figure out what i find cringier that episode or the people in the comments trying to play devils advocate for no reason

@@lavenderwalrus9875 They really show their true colors if they defend that kind of behavior. Like I'm willing to bet THEY'RE the problem player at their own D&D campaigns if they really think that Orion did absolutely nothing wrong. Now, I haven't heard anything about Orion in a very long time. I know he still does voicework, but I don't know if he's changed his attitude in recent years, maybe someone can clue me in on that. If he's gotten better, then awesome! Self-awareness can be the ultimate best friend in your life (it can also be a dick, because it can cause you to wanna kick your own ass at how shitty you were back then).

@@restfulori212 The fan defense had gotten so weird and out of nowhere, part of me would play "conspiracy theorist" and suggest that they're Orion's sock-puppet accounts, but I get the feeling everyone signed an NDA and I'm sure he wouldn't wanna risk violating that. But yes, it is a VERY huge difference. And from what I've seen, it's another case of Orion stealing other character traits from the others and putting them into Tiberius (Percy's inventions, Vex having a pet, Grog being brutal, and now Scanlan's perverted "humor") - it wasn't even a joke, it was a statement. I wouldn't have laughed either. I know his defenders were also pissed off about them killing Tiberius off screen, but with that being said, at least Matt and co. treated his death with respect. They could've done anything, but IMO, Matt took the high road with how he treated the off-screen death: Tiberius went down swinging to defend the innocents. They gave him a hero's death. I have never gotten to play D&D (I know online games exist, but I'm an in-person gamer type), and while I'm not sure whether or not Orion has gotten better after all of this, these stories (as well as other RPG horror stories I see from the likes of CritCrab and Den of the Drake and Crispy's Tavern) have gotten me to learn to be smarter about who I would play with, what red flags to keep an eye out for, so at the very least, I'm glad videos like this exist.

the difference is that SCANLAN said these things. Or Sam makes a lewd pun pertaining to the situation, out of game. Orion said „Tiberius gets a half-chub“ like you would describe your character doing anything else, so it feels totally extraneous. Why make everyone aware that your character is getting hard? He didn’t say „Suddenly Vex seems a lot more attractive to Tiberius!“ or have Tiberius speak himself like „That was the most attractive thing I‘ve ever seen you do!“, so there was no roleplay reason to throw it out there- cause the characters aren’t going to notice or react to that. Plus since that wasn’t part of Tiberius‘ character beforehand, it just seems totally creepy. Like when he used to be all over Marisha, or when he was pouting cause Allura wasn’t returning his advances.

Very well said

Sometimes, I do think about how his character could have flourished like the rest of the cast, and ehat his characters in the other campaigns would have been. If only Tiberius's player wasn't so bad.

I'm watching the campaign for the first time right now, and I just finished the Draconia episode (I cried so hard). One of the things that it brought to mind for me when we discovered that Draconia had operated on a caste system, if not outright slavery, was how he reacted when Tofor was introduced for the first time. She was tailless, but had a highly respected position on the Council of Tal'Dorei, and he was *awful* to her. It had the makings of a great storyline, where we learn about Draconia and potentially change his mindset on the Ravenites, and all of that went right down the drain.

When I first watched it I thought Tiberius was going to be my favorite character but was sorely disappointed really early on

I don’t remember the episode either but at the time I didn’t see any of the problems he was showing (was new to the whole dnd world) but thinking back now it’s more like “how the hell did I miss that???”

@@Allantitan I'm a new Critter and I didn't catch it at first, but people in the comments kept pointing it out. Then I started noticing. Looks between Sam and Matt especially. The example I gave is what I think is the most obvious because Orion admits to re-rolling.

That was one of the episodes where Wil Wheaton was a guest and he pegged that immediately and kept watching Orion after that moment.

@@TheThreeHeadedDragon it's one of those things that on you see it, you can't unsee it. I spotted issues pretty much immediately, but that's also because I started in c3 and had comments in c1 tipping me off.

There was another time, I can't remember the episode and its too painful to watch them again to find it, where he very clearly mimes rolling a die and calls a nat 20 for an Arcana check or something. Its painfully obvious because in those early days the dice were the only thing that came through clearly on those microphones and its right there on camera that nothing falls out of his hand.

My theory is G&S wanted him out for a while before episode 26 and the cast was defending him. But eventually they had enough as well

Orion used CR and G&S resources to publicly slander and defame someone. That's why he was fired.

Dude, for real. One of my first campaigns was just so hard to enjoy from some of the players. I would come home and my roommate would ask how it went and I'd just be like, "Nope. Nope. Dont want to get into it. Dont want to cause a problem." And a month or so later when they texted me for the next game I'd be all excited again.

I'd always assumed playing in front of thousands of people just got to his head.

Allura Vysoren

Matt probably created that relationship to keep Tibs off of her

No one at the table seemed to have a problem with it. They consoled Tiberius and laughed with Orion.

Its even worse than that, Matt states they're just friends, sure they may have feelings currently for each other or maybe even a romantic past, but that doesn't change that they are just currently friends. Orion heard that there MAY be "competition" and immediately lashed out like a child.

Maybe there's more context to it but the clip I see in this video seems to play the whole thing off as a joke.

Watching Matt's reaction to the "Really Matthew" is the most tense I've ever seen Matt be. It's chilling to see. I was so caught up in catching up when i first started, I never realized how bad this got until it was already over.

It was a funny scene that EVERYBODY laughed at. Labeling it as some BS "homophobia" or "dude bro" thing in some seriously SJW garbage.

i would have taken Story of my life as oh the girls i want are always taken.. but a at that point Matt made it seem like really close friends for all we know he would have let him date her. but .. due like really you had to blow up on it.

@@writer8706 You forget that there was a long backstory from their home games that we never saw. Tiberius' infatuation with Allura was referenced in the show, and may not have been one-sided in the home game. And judging by the reactions of the other players consoling Orion it seems like they were kinda shocked themselves by the revelation.

@@thetruth-hl7ct that's what i was trying to get at.

I skipped the first arc of c1 and just stuck with the early briarwood episodes with orion in it tbh. That way I only had like 2-3 orion episodes

true, I never understood the hate of keyleth though, they were relatively new dnd players and learning

@@d4s0n282 i think the problem is while yes they were alll new to 5e and made mistakes marisha is 1. way more willing to argue and 2. chose arguablely the most complex class leading to more mistakes then travis with barb or sam with bard. and 3. she was the dm's gf who challenged his calls so to some thats auto material for hate. Not to mention some wish washy rp stuff especially in the beginning with kiva and not trusting her and some weird moral high ground rping right before and after going on murder rampages it lead to some controversy

@@donb7519 I think overall (and this is just my two cents, coming from someone who is NOT an actor and is an amateur dnd player at this point) Marisha was just not that great at RP, specifically in keeping Keyleth consistent, which led to moments where she was self conscious and nervous and then others where she was very preachy and went for a "werid moral highground" rp, as you put it. (Also yes, Keyleth and Vax had some cringy romance scenes, but I think it eventually got better) The main reason why I say this is because of how brilliant she is at the moment, I mean Beau started off as pretty rough for me, but as campaign 2 went on I noticed a very clear maturity in the character as well as Marisha as a roleplayer. ANd then campaign 3 she is knocking it out of the park, legit one of the best characters at the table. Not to mention her acting in EXU Calamity! In the end though, the hate she got blew completely out of proportion, and she in no way deserved it. TLDR: Marisha was maybe not as good at RP in the beginning, which led to some unproportional hate from the fandom, but she is fantastic at it now, and has been for a while

@@carlotaperes1031 thats a reasonable explanation and i think this whole marisha thing has got caught in a cycle of backlash and counter backlash and counter backlash to the counter backlash and so on plus just tied into some messy topics like gms having significant others as players and how much should a player challenge a gm ruling not to mention even messier topics like feminism since marisha explored that with keyleith and beau a bit hell my first interaction with a lot of critters in a dnd group was being called sexist for mentioning marisha in it as a reason i couldnt get into campaign 1

@@donb7519 between the backlash and backlash TO backlash, it became such a whirlwind of conflict that “Marisha” just became a concept and the fanbabies forgot that she was a fucking person. Luckily, it seems most of it died down, especially with how well Keyleth was portrayed in the animated show.

Man-splaining? That's not a real thing and it's not a real word. Arrogantly dictating something and trying to enforce one's will on the group is what Orion was attempting to do, and that is something anyone can do, man or woman.

​@@Dragon_Lair I agree and I should have picked a better word. Mansplaining is a real word though (google definition: 'the explanation of something by a man, typically to a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing'). I think it can also carry the connotation of being condescending about something you also happen to be wrong or ignorant about, which is a particularly sad kind of condescension. (for the record I am a man)

Lol mansplaining

@@Alister222222 That's just a condescending explanation. Anyone can do it, man or woman. And sometimes people just get offended when told something by a man or a woman, but have no problem being told the literal exact same thing if the opposite gender says it. That shows more attitude on the part of the person having something explained to them than it does on the person doing the explanation.

@@Dragon_Lair You are trolling here aren't you?

I can agree with this. It's so weird to see the character you like the most slowly becoming the problem...

@@gerraltodudhugan4605 The Briarwood arc, which is basically 100% steeped in Percy's backstory.

Especially when he basically tried to "speed run" that whole arc by having his father send an army from Draconia.. Lol..

I started watching at episode 24 and it eas something i immediately picked up on. She looked so uncomfortable and I bet it was hard for Matt to see it and have to keep composure on camera. It makes me wonder how he was during home games and if being live just brought something out in him or if it was something that had been going on for a while.

@@vision_walker The issue with people like that, is that they usually start small because they're testing boundaries to see what they can get away with. It's very much a "well I got away with this, so maybe I can also get away with that" sort of mentality. They usually continue to escalate until they get called out. If you're lucky, people like this will take the hint and tone it down, but sometimes they don't, and you have no choice but to kick them out (whether that be the game, or your life depends on the situation). Basically, it's very likely the dude seemed normal to the group at one point, and just slowly got worse as time went on.

@@vision_walker it could have also been a thing she was ok with, but as his ego got larger she was no longer comfortable with it. We see throughout the rest of the campaign that her and Tal are also pretty touchy so I'm more inclined to think that's just her relationship with her friends but as Orion got moved out of that "friends" category the boundaries shifted.

I think it's more so Orion pushing newly set boundaries due to him being HIV positive.

@@starlitking0138 I don't think it's because of that. In earlier episodes, Marisha was clearly okay with being close to him. They had been playing for about 2 years before stream, so I definitely think that overtime, something was happening off screen. If it was his HIV status and the cast had *such an issue* about it, he wouldn't have been seated closely to people (not saying that's how people with HIV should be treated, just going off this comment). But Marisha was 100% not okay with him touching her, and with her past with se/xual as/sault, it really pains me to see it. Everyone just became so much more comfortable and OPEN when Orion was gone, so I can't imagine how it could simply be HIV being the only thing.

Seems legit to me. Not sure what exactly was being tested though.

@@filthycasual8187 The source of party conflict. Travis, Laura, and Sam got into it fairly often with Orion. You pull Orion out of that group and see how he fairs. The result: He still made the entire table miserable.

@@highspeedstrongstyle9061 Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification!

I started watching them around episode 50-70 of C1 and started from the beginning. At the time I didn't see too much wrong with him as a character other than being kind of unnecessarily inserting and a bit of a prick*. I wasn't upset when he left and honestly completely forgot about him until this video being commented on came out. I decided to relisten to the beginning episodes afterwards and couldn't make it past 5 or 6 episodes with how much it stuck out after all that has been created since. I've been a majority podcast listener and have rarely watched any of the actual videos so I never picked up on any of the casts physical tells of the situation, but even just relistening to the episodes, it's fucking rough. *misspelled

Nah, there's loads of C1E1 people who've always found Marisha to be only a hair less obnoxious than Orion. That pretty privilege/DM wife combo be strong AF.

@@patrickwilliams7582 Cry moar.

@@Nocturne22 no u

Tiberius was an amazing character concept that I loved. The problem was the character was better than the player, and the player made the character worse by association.

@@Dragon_Lair indeed

Tiberius was one of, if not my favourite character for the first 8 or 9 episodes. Then the whole Ka'varn thing happened and he just started getting progresivelly worse and worse, which makes me sad in retrospect cuz he could have been an amazing character.

@@dustingaethje1332 I 100% agree with that.

It's kind of vindicating to me reading these current-day admissions to lack of insight back then. I was a very vocal critic of Keyleth and it was quite obvious I was just noticing things that other viewers were unable to perceive. Only difference was she's the DM's wife, so she stuck around long enough to improve as a player. Needless to say I also immediately noticed all of this things about Orion, at the time. I know it's not a competition of who has the deepest insight.. but I copped so much flack for my justified criticisms back then that it's hard not to feel a little vindicated now.

Same here. I even liked Tiberius in the first few episodes. He seemed funny up to the point when his behaviour more and more often interfered with the story.

What’s their backstory? I didn’t know that she was his tether to the group. I thought maybe he and Matt were close

@@tkaki6029 Orion and Marisha I always assumed were super close because they were both newbies to voice acting compared to everyone else.

He had a wisdom of 4. No one got butthurt when Grog did stupid crap because of his 6 intelligence, but when Tiberius did something foolish everyone lost their mind, players and fans alike.

@@thetruth-hl7ct Be honest man, there's no way anything Orion did was based on trying to accurately RP a low WIS.

@@dmtaboo_truth7052 Watch the show again.

@@thetruth-hl7ct No thanks xD

@@dmtaboo_truth7052 So you have chosen ignorance over enlightenment.

Yeah, seeing in Campaign 2 and even moreso in Campaign 3...this is a group of friends. They know how to build off of each other, they're not afraid to share moments between the party, they're enthusiastic when they see another PC/player succeed. They complement each other. And beyond that they're not afraid to yield time or roleplay or badass moments to one another. And a big part of this is indeed Matt knowing how to divide his attention, work with his players, and make sure everyone's interests are explored and advanced. As a DM I have taken some note. Not so much in terms of the system, but in making sure I can keep everyone engaged. Giving everyone time and agency.

There's also one where he declares a number, Sam looks to the dice, Matt looks too Sam, Sam shakes his head. So yeah, it happens a lot. Both Sam and Marisha both started to look at his every dice roll from a certain point, exchanging looks and texts with Matt. So yeah, all that's missing is clipping them all together, along with a sorcery point counter (and magic storing device suddenly being used a lot more higher level spells then it states it holds, or just a bunch more charges. Matt even calls him on it once and either reads the item description to him, or makes him read it out loud, can't remember which rn), to prove it's not 'alleged', you just need to know to look at the people around him when he rolls, but i get that people can miss it if they get swept up in the story or are just watching one of the million other people at the table when it happens. As they aren't making a scene about it, they are leaving it to Matt.

I wonder if they called him out on it after the session, maybe said if he does it again he's out. If they didn't do that, which if they had he would have been let go sooner, then they just turned it into something that would fester.

Very big volume difference watching on my PC as well, it's not just your phone.

I've been so happy and sad at the same time, when the discovered him. Happy for a closure storywise, Matt did a gpod job here as a storyteller. Sad because I did like the character to some point and it's always sad to lose such characters. I just had to cry.

@@MoonShadow04 me and some friends got a hold of the dnd book that explains that world recently we are going to run a campain in it and one of my friends asked if he could play Tiberius but do it right were going to talk to the dm soon to see what he says

@@MrKotorX that sounds great. Hope you and your friends have fun with that campaign and I'm happy that Tiberius can have the story he deserved.

same

I had to do the same thing with one of my ex player's characters. He had a lot set up and it's a small group... but he also was toxic and innapropriate. I did what I could to mitigate and help curb the behavior at the table since he was the youngest one there with personal issues. But then he decided to throw a giant fit at a different table where we were both players and the dm didnt know the bad habits to look out for and yup... everything went wrong. He made everyone uncomfortable. He pivoted to not just being unhelpful but getting in the way for the rest of us for half an hour and finally we all tried to stop him in game and when he started to get pissy I tried to explain why the behavior was not cool. He ended up being insanely disrespectful, pretty much admitting to using me and doubling down on past offenses he had apologized for as just pacifying me so he could keep playing. So I kicked him out until he could apologize. He messaged me saying a lot of horrible stuff and I just blocked him. Told our dm from that game it was up to him what to do but I wouldnt play with him and he would not be allowed at my place. I would be fine just not playing if they wanted to continue to play together so it wasnt something where a side had to be picked. Then i told my group that we would be doing a soft reset to restat characters to account for losing our fighter snd there would be a small arc about retrieving some things he had and wrapping up any loose ends with that. Thankfully the last bit we had done had him finding a cursed sword and becoming paranoid about his friends so it fit that he went insane and turned on everyone.

That's literally what they were doing. The npc he was romancing did like him, maybe not yet to the extent that he liked her, but she still had some feelings which could've very easily grown into more. When she reunited with her friend, he immediately took that as her being robbed from him, but really she wasn't at all (and anyway he has no authority over any character, npc or otherwise.) It wasn't until he brutally killed an old woman who was attempting to flee the battle and was knocked out prior to him killing her, that she lost any and all interest in him because it was so incredibly fucked up of him to do that.

If you are wondering about the mirrors, it was because Taliesan had Percy try to come up with the idea of making a mirror laser, basically using hundreds of mirrors in order to point them all at the same spot so that in sunlight it could basically set anything on fire. Because that's how Taliesan rolls, thinking like a supervillain. Percy rolled for it, tried to do it, and found that he couldn't find enough mirrors or it would cost more than he had and it wasn't working out. He had that sort of thing happen. Matt gave Percy a chance to fail at making devices, and the more lavish the harder the difficulty and cost. He let that happen because Percy was, by nature, a mad inventor. Orion had Tiberius decide he was going to try to do the same thing, despite not being an engineering specialist. Matt, patiently, gave every possible hint that it wasn't going to happen. Matt is a "Yes, and..." sort of DM, but when you effectively steal another player's idea and try to get it hoping your luck is better despite you having no real in character reason to do it or consider it, the DM is not going to be cooperative. Having a character be like "Hey I'm going to succeed specifically where you failed!" is a crap thing to try to do in or out of character. Worth noting Tiberius never tried to assist or loop in Percy that I know of, he wanted to just do it himself.

@StealthMarmot_ Exactly And is (another) reason I can't stand him

Wasn't the mechanical pencil snap during a completely different part/episode after Orion was gone? I thought it was when Grog's beard was shaved

@@Lollrus might have been, I’ll check out the footage…

@@Lollrus and upon further investigation: yes, the mechanical pencil was episode 24, after Vax shaved the beard…

I watched it from the beginning and then saw Mike's video about 4 or 5 episodes in. I knew it was going to be bad, but 27 was the hardest one to sit through. Some awkward moments or tension are gonna happen in weekly 4 hour streams, but they usually move on pretty quickly and get the energy back on track. That awkward tension just stuck for the entire episode though, felt like it was never going to end

It just reminds me of a guy that told a girl, "You'll never get a boyfriend if you go around saying you're a lesbian."

The worst for me was when Allura and Kima were reunited. Nothing romantic happened but the whole cast caught The Vibe and Orion’s reaction really grossed me out. He threw his arms up and exclaimed something like “REALLY, MATT?” It really shows how he expected everything in the game to go exactly as he had thought up. Really disrespectful, childish behavior.

11. 12 was a one-shot of sorts with three different players.

Two episodes later: FCG: "I believe the Earth is flat" Tiberius: "ME TOO!"

any chance you have a time stamp? Edit: I think I found it- episode 11 at about 4:34:58, Tal starts saying “It’s like that thing at the end of Time Bandits. We should just-“ and Orion cuts him off snappily with *“Yeah, I just killed it. Don’t tell me what to do, dawg.”* Travis laughs at him and mockingly repeats “don’t tell me what to do”, and Laura comments that Orion is being very ornery, especially considering they had to _tell him_ to come back into the battle and hit the thing. Tal looks upset for a moment and doesn’t really talk much until the episode ends a few minutes later and they go into the after show. This moment also feels especially mean considering Orion literally just borrowed some of Taliesin’s dice to make his attack.

@@jabisdumb That's the one! It was probably his worst moment for me until later. It didn't seem to me like Tal was talking to him in mean spirit, so it just felt like it came out of nowhere. Unfortunately, he did not seem to be as bad in the following episodes, which lulled me into a false sense of security for the Rakshasa hunt and the infamous e27. Edit: Oh wait, no. I was thinking of a different moment. The one I was thinking of has Orion sit next to Tal and Orion snaps something at Tal that makes him just sit there and stare into the thousand yards. It's been a while since I last watched them.

@@RitsuCurisu Drat! the search continues then… I’ll post it here if I think I find the one you’re talking about, and if not then we’re just amassing even more clips of Orion spreading bad vibes :/

@@jabisdumb Cheers! At least he serves a good example for what not to act like in a tabletop game.

“Deep friendship“

Failures can be more glorious and exciting than any one would expect.

The thing is/was Allura WAS interested in him. People can be bi, a new concept I know. It could have lead to some great role play and deepening their relationship but he got all offended about her not being straight and having had a previous relationship.

The early episodes aren't too bad. Mostly cause the other technical issues can be so bad you can't even hear the dialogue some of the time. Then they smoothed out those issues and yikes, suddenly we have a lot more ability to focus on these things.

Keyleth was almost as bad. But hey, DMs wife gets a free pass

@@dmtaboo_truth7052 umm not quite . Marisha didn’t try to force a trade in items constantly. Nor did she make inappropriate “jokes” Nor did she outright deny a fight then shut the conversation down when asked and pressed by “casting silence”

@@liamjrowan2896 She was pretty disruptive to the narrative when she decided to take a weird moral high ground against an NPC. There were numerous times where she took the reins on negotiating which inevitably went poorly, to the group's detriment. She almost made enemies of the Slayers Take. She felt that the green dragon was deceitful and treacherous, so she had the group deceive and betray her... (when she genuinely seemed open to diplomacy). As well as not knowing her character or the game and making blunders, which is normal for a new player, but then arguing with Matt when he shut her down or pointed out that what she was attempting had failed. ("But hey, 7th level spell, yo").

@@dmtaboo_truth7052 "She was pretty disruptive to the narrative when she decided to take a weird moral high ground against an NPC" She was INCENTIVIZED to start acting more morally after she KEPT MURDERING PEOPLE AS A MORALLY GOOD CHARACTER. Keyleth was basically given the job of moral compass for a party of deviants, meanwhile her ENTIRE story arc is her insecurities about being a leader. She was also not DISRUPTIVE to the narrative, she worked WITH the narrative. "There were numerous times where she took the reins on negotiating which inevitably went poorly, to the group's detriment" The group LET her do those things. In fact they LIKE sending the lower charisma characters to do shit like that. THEY DID THAT SO MANY TIMES IN CAMPAIGN 2! "She almost made enemies of the Slayers Take." It's Critical Role. Everyone very nearly makes an enemy out of EVERYONE. That's their whole thing. GROG AND TARRY WERE WANTED IN VASELHEIM! "She felt that the green dragon was deceitful and treacherous, so she had the group deceive and betray her" I mean she was, and I agree it was NOT a good idea to attack immediately after the fight with Thordak, but the group was in support of her and agreed that they would have to kill Raishan eventually. Even if she wouldn't be a problem to THEM, and they weren't convinced she wouldn't be, she would absolutely be SOMEONE'S problem down the line and probably a VERY powerful problem. Matt revealed in the wrap up that she'd become a fucking lich! As well as start playing with these new mini Thordaks, plus his corpse! Keyleth was very emotional towards her, but Keyleth is emotional and she COMMITTED GENOCIDE against the fire ashari to release Thordak in the first place, all for the selfish goal of preserving her life. YEAH NO SHIT KEYLETH DESPISES HER! "As well as not knowing her character or the game and making blunders" Ok now you're just fucking with me. HAVE YOU NOT SEEN CRITICAL ROLE!? That's kind of their thing! I think they still don't know the dodge action exists. "but then arguing with Matt when he shut her down or pointed out that what she was attempting had failed. ("But hey, 7th level spell, yo")." EVERYONE tries to make a case for why their crazy ideas would work. When Matt makes a decision she accepts it even if she's not happy because it's disadvantageous towards her. Just like everyone else at the table. You keep trying to make a case for why Marisha in particular is such a toxic player, but you're ignoring ALL the times other members of Critical Role did these SAME things and it was apparently FINE when they did it because REASONS. Cause if they did something, and you're complaining when Keyleth does it, SURELY you'd mention it to be fair. Remember the time Vax ran ahead? I'm sorry, I think I made that singular. Remember when Grog and Scanlan or Grog and Tarry did something stupid? Remember when Pike slit a prisoner's throat? With a mace!? Remember when EVERYONE trusted a MIND FLAYER more than a Paladin Dwarf? Cause his voice sounded cool!? IT'S CRITICAL ROLE!!!! THEY DO INSANE SHIT ALL THE TIME! The hallway in campaign 2 was a group effort.

I have a feeling there is at lease one universe where CR didn’t go passed 40 episodes. Due to that behaviour.

I'm still kind of amazed people were able to stomach Keyleth. I had to give up on C1 slightly before the goldfish incident.. Hearing about it later made me feel somewhat vindicated.

​@@dmtaboo_truth7052 Vindicated? It was a funny, silly little moment. My god, the shit Marisha gets for not being as charismatic and a dnd expert as the others truly gets me.

@@bessieburnet9816 I don't expect every player to be a charismatic D&D expert. The issue was mainly her choice to play a wise, charismatic leader in her first campaign, while personally lacking those traits to the point she couldn't role-play them. Coupled with a degree of arrogance and lack of self-awareness about her shortcomings. It'd be like having a player without a comedic bone in their body trying to play a character like Scanlan. And insisting on it for the entire campaign, never realizing it's just annoying and cringe. She was much more tolerable as Beau and Laudna. Enjoyable, even.