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King Theoden slander shan´t be tolerated

the real reason why they massed the troops up in the film was because it would have taken another hour for theoden to deliver his speach if it was a 2km long front line.

I trust in the good King Theoden

The Ride worked because those orcs were trained by Ratbag.

In the books there definitely are officers and banners used by the Rohirrim. They also do not charge a line of braced spears. And while there are no definite unit sizes given we can assume them to be a lot smaller than in the movie from some of the descriptions of the battle. The battle unfolds roughly like this: - Rohan bypasses the blocking force of Orcs with help from local tribesmen. - They attack the main army of Mordor in multiple columns and destroy the Orcs on the northern half of the battlefield through their surprise attack in the flank. The Haradrim cavalry tries to meet them head on but are defeated because the Rohirrim have longer lances with Theoden killing the Haradrim chieftain. - The charge stops because the army has reached the northern city walls. - The Witch King kills Theoden and is slain by Eowyn. Eomer takes command and rallies the force for a second charge which manages to drive deep wedges into the enemy frontline, but gets halted by the Mumakil. - The Rohirrim are driven back and partially encircled and prepare to make a dismounted shield wall on a hill for their final stand. - Aragorn arrives with strong reinforcements from southern Gondor and attacks the army of Mordor in the rear. - The army of Mordor is crushed between a Hammer (Aragorn) and Anvil (Rohan and the forces from Minas Tirith). Overall a tactically much more sound battle than the one in the movie.

Tactically there were a couple of hobbits, and once an army has hobbits, its over

I mean, they were chanting “Death!” They knew they likely weren’t surviving lol. Also, they state in the movie multiple times that they know they are riding to their dooms.

The amount of passion you have when saying "we'll agree they deserve to be squashed by the momakil" is so brilliant and lets us know what you truly think 😂😂

In the books it is described quite differently. With Theodén's forces kind of sneaking in with the help of people from the mountain. And they then actually charge in single groups (because they split up before) it is upon a totally surprised enemy that has no time to from ranks and from mutliple directions at once. Bret Deveraux breaks it down quite good in his Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry

This type of slander is unforgiveable.

Should’ve played the Ride of the Rohirrim in Third Age: Total War smhmh.

It was always my understanding that Theoden showed up, saw that Minas Tirith had basically already fallen and just decided to go out in a blaze of glory rather than run away back to Rohan to cower in his slowly crumbling forts. The ride of the Rohirrim wasn't supposed to be a tactical engagement, it was basically just suicide by combat. Hence why Theoden didn't really make any actual plan.

A "spear" may also be used to refer to a unit as a "lance" was. It could mean 3-5 men for each spear/lance. No matter what Tolkien had in mind, it sounds like the siege of Vienna in 1683. There an 18,000 strong cavalry charge led by 3,000 Polish Winged Hussars hit the Turks, though they were in a checkerboard pattern of squares, not a blob. They cut their way through 50,000 Turks, fought off counter attacks, and made it all the way to the Turkish camp. ”It was like a flood of black pitch pouring downhill, crushing and burning everything in its way” - Ottoman observer describes the attack of the relief army.

Faborite line "had this been historic, theyd have taken a historic whuppin"

Considering the context of the battle, Theoden was doing pretty good since the orcs were caught off guard by the heavy cavalry charge. Mumakil did the same to Theoden, caught them by surprise n he reacted in the moment

Any war movie where the two armies charged into each other at full speed is probably wrong. Some of these ancient style battles took all day to fight, and you can't do that if your most courageous men run into a wall of wood and steel in the first light of dawn.

Seems like a lot of y'all would benefit from reading the book, its MUCH more tactically sound, if I recall it involves 3 divisions and an envelopment + the Southrons actually counter-charge Rohan with their cavalry and there's a cavalry battle. Very cool

This video can be summarized in "longher>thicker"

Interesting video, but I am rather disappointed you mainly addressed the movie and failed to give Tolkien the credit he deserved. It would have been great to give a shoutout to his army structure which features 120-rider Eöreds, which would correspond somewhat with the historical strategy you sought to highlight. These riders may have not been able to spread out early, due to the details of their approach in the books, but I do believe it is implied that they did spread out once reaching the outer wall, and once the battle was engaged, and the eöred commanders were all given substantial autonomy in the field. I know your main focus was to dispel cinematic myths about warfare, but the organization of Rohan‘s military is quite interesting and well done by talking and deserved some talk.

I love this! Using fiction to teach IRL history/military is a great idea. Whatever IRL lessons are learnt, doesn't make the scene any less stunning and impactful and epic, AND we get to learn something new ❤

To this day the most effective use of cavalry in practice I have ever seen was in this game called Mount&Blade in an online server with real players as seen from the perspective of the opposing force infantryman. These quite small groups of cavalrymen 10-20 men each, hit the infantry formation at a glancing charge like you showed in the example in this video. Never in a direct charge, if the swing connected or it did not they rode on regardless. High speed, hit and run. As the first group of riders retreated to regroup for another charge some distance away, the second group was already in the process of conducting their own charge. And they just rotated like this until they dwindled the enemy numbers down so much they basically just cleaned up the survivors. From the perspective of the enemy infantryman (already occupied with dealing with enemy infantry as well) this meant a high speed deadly cavalry charge coming from a random direction every 15- 25 seconds that was extremely hard to counter. Even if that particular charge did not result in any kills, the disruption it caused in the infantry formation made them much much less effective in the battlefield. How historically accurate this tactic would be I have absolutely no idea, but it worked like a charm in the game.

I think the literal book reasoning behind the charge at the Battle of Pelennor Field is facing the inevitability of death bravely. You don’t yell “Death” three times before doing something if you’re looking for a positive outcome (usually) 😊

Fun fact: The winged hussars in many battles (including the relief of Vienna) were riding with relatively big gabs between them and were closing them only were they were really close to the enemy, which extrapolates the point, that you need to have gaps between cavalary.

Read this first in 1969 and thought Tolkien had cribbed from King Sobieski's homework including sneaking through the woods to achieve tactical surprise.

This is a good critique of the movie charge. The Charge of the Rohirrim in the book is much more tactical. It’s not deeply elaborated on, but little mentions of different leaders and their men going different directions and taking on separate areas of the battlefield prove that Prof. Tolkien knew what he was doing. One unit rode to the right along the wall of Minas Tirith. Another rode straight for the orcs attacking the gate. One rode to the far left and encircled. One unit rode through the catapults and slew their operators and drove them into the fire trenches. The king and his men pierced straight through the heart of the orc army until he reached a unit of Southron cavalry who thought they could take him on and died in the attempt. Ultimately the charge did fail in its ultimate goal. It did not completely break the lines of Mordor. There were so many orcs and men in Mordor’s army that the Rohirrim only routed about half of them. They actually dismounted and formed a ring shield wall; preparing for a fight to the death when they saw the Corsair ships coming. But the ships were full of Gondorian soldiers instead of pirates. Thus Aragorn saved the day. So like I said… good critique of the film. You are right about that. But that’s not the real Ride of the Rohirrim. The real one is so much better. Although it still failed.

An important distinction in the books is the terrain: instead of an open field and a single mass of enemy forces, book Rohirrim showed up to many scattered units of enemies mixed up in farms, smaller hamlets, and hedges. Between the noise and orc distraction upon the walls, it's not crazy that the Rohirrim, moving in a few smaller bands, were able to deliver a hefty punch before the orcs could retaliate. My critiques aside, I love your content, and am eagerly awaiting the next Tyranid video. Cheers Invicta. 😊 Edited: I jumped the gun, posting less than three minutes into the video, before you mentioned the Rammas Echor. Though I'd still consider the film and book terrain different enough that you can't consider them the same. Dr. Konijnendijk wasn't on hand to teach the orcs ditches.

Are you comparing the books as well or just going over the movie scenes? Because there is already a whole series of articles that compares the books and the movies, done by A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. It is very interesting, and if anybody else in this comment section is interested in learning about the differences of what Peter Jackson did and how Tolkien actually wrote things, and both compared to real military tactics and historical realism, I'd recommend the read.

The impression I got from the books was that the 6000 Rohirrim were able to make a successful flank attack and surprise the orcs, and that the movie changed it up to try and make that seem like a separate, more dynamic battle. Either way, this is a nifty little formation, I like the looks of it.

"it's beautifull, but it's no war" a french general said that while watching the charge of the light brigade in Balaclava. It applies here as well.

A few issues with this . We DO see banners. Both during and before the charge. Theoden and the people he talked to are commanding the formations, and they also make use of horns to communicate orders. . Frontal charges aren't this super insane borderline blasphemous idea that a lot of people seem to believe. Obviously they aren't the smartest thing in most situations, but they were most definitely used in a plethora of situations in history. The battle of Montgisard for example where Baldwin defeated Saladin ended in a charge against Saladins forces and despite being greatly outnumbered Baldwin won. . You contradict yourself when talking about the units being way too deep where you say that units in the back aren't doing anything then later when talking about formations you say they help force the line through. Ultimately this was the goal of the rohirrim (movie wise, not sure about the book), because... . The entire goal was to force a rout. 1. Orcs and especially goblins are cowardly. And 2. If they didn't rout humanity would lose. They were too outnumbered, the orcs had already taken most of the city, the white wizard was defeated, there were numerous nazgul, and humanity for all respects and purposes was defeated. If Saurons army didn't run than humanity was doomed anyway. They were 6 thousand against whatever was left of the 100+ thousand orcs. Thats why they chanted "death". Because 1. Sauron and/or morgoth convinced man that death was bad when in reality it was a gift from Eru, and they no longer feared it. And 2. Its almost certainly what they were riding towards regardless what tactic they used. You either tried to force a rout in a final hail mary, or you actually try to take on a hundred thousand orcs with only six thousand cavalry. Actually montgisard like i mentioned is a perfect example here. The orcs outside the city were disorganized, had unfavorable terrain, were tired from all the marching and fighting, and so on. And like montgisard the rohirrim really didn't have much in their favor aside from "God's on our side." . You ask "how are you going to reform, how are you going to move, really you can only go in one direction". Thats actually the point for them. I want you to think about qhat happens to many of your army wings with thousand of arrows going their way. If you were an orc you'd be a lot less terrified of a bunch of small groups of cavalry and much more terrified seeing the "massive blob" so to speak. If this was something like 6K rohirrim vs 30k orcs i could see it. But again... This was over one hundred thousand, not even including the reinforcements rohan would've believed were coming from the sea, the easterlings, or the mumakil. Also the wring wraiths. We saw what they could do to units even outside of formations. If they were to attack a massive blob there'd be thousands of spears waiting for them as opposed, lets say, 30. Good vid regardless. Edit: "Only the bravest and most well trained horses would ever charge headfirst into spears" Sir this is Rohan. Edit 2: also the army of the dead thing isnt as impressive as people seem to think. This is unrelated to the video, but they used to worship sauron (or morgoth i forget) so if aragorn were to keep them its entirely possible, if not likely, that sauron would've corrupted them. And thats assuming that the guys literally called "the oath breakers" decided to just go along with whatever aragorn said anyways.

To be fair in the Movie the Orcs where panicking and routing before Thedoens riders, it was not until the Haradarian where in positioned and advanced that it was stopped and even then the Rohirrim where seeming to hold their own until the Witch King took out Théoden King. Also Théoden had to take action fast in the film, he saw in the movie the city was breached and the first two levels at least where in flames and overrun, he likely took this charge option to quickly draw attention away from Minis Tirith of the Mordor Army and give the defenders some relief from the hordes. He had to act or lose the City and the initiative, the Mordor Army was massive in the film dwarfing it's book counterpart even in scale and the book army was a large army. Likely if Théoden had wasted time the Witch King or his sub commanders would have used the time to adapt the army formation and units to counter the Rohirrim and cut them off from any chance of reaching the city. As to why they charge the Elephants in the film, it's likely done by Théoden just to keep his men moving and maintain the momentum, he took action rather than do nothing at all. Let's also not forget the big factor in the room now, the presence of the Witch King and his Nazgul who are bringing dread and terror to the Battlefield by the sheer presence. This is likely why the men are so clung together to keep each inspired and not given into to fear as Gandalf said once. The Mordor was not going to break not until the Witch King was defeated, Sauron's grip on it through fear was too strong through the Witch King for that happen. In the Book the Rohirrim flattened the Easterling and Harad cavalry and nearly created a route of the Orc body of the Army until the Witch King took out Théoden and the Harad oliphants countered the Rohirrim. Then Aragorn returned with the southern fiefdoms troops of Gondor, his Arnorian rangers, Gimli and Legolas and Elrond's sons. The Gondorians in the book still held the whole city minus some parts of the first wall, they sallied out to meet the Rohirrim and fight alongside them. The book battle was more like a real life battle and had more correct tactics for both sides. I will say though if you must change the very fundamentals of the Rohirrim then your no longer creating a better scenario for them, but instead just replacing them with another force in reality. I don't think the revised version of the Rohirrim would win either, Mordor's army was in formations as well in the Film and had the manpower to counter the Rohirrim even this revised version of it. Don't forget the Mordor forces also where locked in fear of the Witch King and so weren't going to flee until he was taken out or their army was nearly wiped out. I dare say likely this more spread out Rohirrim force would be in time encircled and forced into pockets and slowly destroyed separated from each others support.

If you see in the book perspective The rohirim charge is a suprise attack and a tactical genius as the western part of gonder were guarded by thousands of orcs with wood spikes in the road in case rohan came to aid they hide from the forest and the drudein told a secret passage so the horse masters can ride safety to the passage without orcs notice. As they ride safety out to the forest they took the enemies of Mordor by suprise and the enemy eventually don't have time to reform a line.

Love the tactical review and your changes but no matter what you have to admit, the Charge of the Rohirrim is the coolest scene ever (regardless of realism)

I think the most shocking thing about this video, is that people are coming to a history channel and telling you not to view it through a historical lens. it would be like going to a hospital and complaining everyone is so concerned about health.

I like this a lot better actually. It would make them feel so much smarter to be spread out wide and attack in a pair of echelons. The first echelon is the lighter cavalry. They ride up at a gallop, surprisingly close, then at a horn signal, launch a wave of arrows and javelins into the orcs, devastating those first ranks of spears, then wheeling and disappearing through lannes in the oncoming second echelon which is the lancers. Now as the orcs are reeling and disordered, the lancers close ranks and punch through in huge flying V Formations, shattering the orcs unit cohesion entirely while the lighter echelon has turned again, out handaxes and swords to clean up the stragglers.

It wouldn’t be as epic if they did something like a Parthian shot a feigned retreat or a cantabrian circle. And it wouldn’t be true to the Rohirrims style of warfare. But it might be more tactically viable.

Of course we know that in the book there is a lot more actual tactics being used. Not detailed or fully explained but more sensible e.g. they are moving around farmyards and the like. They also acknowledge that they will need to wait to see the enemy for more detailed plans than "this is your objective overall". But lets be fair, proper tactics do not make quite so glorious cinema.

You're a brave man having a crack at the ride of the Rohirrim

I also find it interesting how modern tactics have not strayed nearly as far from historic tactics as many tend to believe. Yes, maneuver is faster now, weapons range is much farther and lethal, but the underlying strategies are relatively unchanged. They may appear very fifferent at the micro level, but zoom out and the organization and distribution of various capabilities are much the same. Substitute cavalry for army aviation, dragoons for mechanized infantry, light infantry for special forces, etc. Their purposes and placement on the battlefield would be recognizeable to any Napoleonic or American Civil War general.

29:05 the revised army now using meters instead of Imperial units makes this much more professional already!

I'd say the formation is most akin to medieval knights because the Rohirrim have an Anglican culture so it's supposed to feel very British. The battle I'd say is more akin to elite medieval knights fighting a force of poorly trained troops that lack experience fighting cavalry. Due to the terrain of Ithilin I'd say that Gondor seldom deployed cavalry against Mordor due to the trees making it difficult for cavalry to be deployed and if they ever were it was in relatively low amounts meaning that facing horses was likely a new experience for the orcs. Judging by the fact that most orcs wielded a spear of some sort I'd guess that they aren't particularly well trained because spears are relatively easy to use. I'd say the only advantage that the orcs had would be their mass because the horses as you said would have trouble barreling through the line due to the sheer number of men, but the orc commander also made a mistake with his formation and seemed to have packed his men too tight meaning the back ranks have to swing their spears, polarms, etc down instead of holding it there. Rohan on the other hand was an elite force led by their king using heavy armour. I say elite because Theoden chose these men to sneak around the mordor forces also they are well experienced fighting orcs with not only better weapons and heavier armour perfectly tailored to fighting cavalry i.e. Isenguard. I do agree that Rohan could've done must more damage had they decided to spread their formation out further, but the Rohirrim troops were just far more elite, better trained, more experienced, and more motivated to fight. I also want to bring up the fact that Rohirrim horses are all war horses and even if they weren't they charged downhill meaning they were going too fast to stop and on top of that the spears were short meaning that it would've been difficult to spot the spears until the horses got too close for them to stop.

You are the best kind of nerd. I *love* these kinds of discussions - this is what being a LotR fan is all about!

Well this take on it makes me pretty sad. That was one of my favorite scenes from the trilogy😅

Dude, I just watched return of the king yesterday twice. The extended version. Great 4th of July.

20:47 in late medieval times, i understand cavalry was supposed to touch each other, specifically heavy armoured knights. They fought knee to knee, in a tight formation

In the books the scale of the Battle of Pelennor Fields is a lot larger and the tactics of the Rohirrim make a lot more sense. Obviously that's not based on the imagery of the movies where we have such deep units, but there are maps of it out there that are pretty cool. Also the idea of using elephants to counter cavalry is a very historical one.

This reminded me of the game Battle for Middle Earth (RTS). They overpowered the charge mechanics for horse and warg riders, but even in that game the calvary needed to keep moving and charge again from the back or sides.

Really cool idea to reconstruct this but damn the screen tearing is driving me mad

Imagine if movie makers would put in just a little bit of work into realism, how much more interesting and dramatic these type of movies could be

Invicta will now always be known as Unreal's base template model on a Pegasus for me 😂

Who needs Netflix when people make good free videos like this? Did I mention that they are free? Support them when you can

Do you want to ride a unicorn or a Pegasus? Yes

27:21 All the Roel Konijnendijk fans are pleased.

Cavalry units typically formed 3 lines about 50 metres apart when conducting a charge. Ideally troopers rode knee to knee in each line to maximise the impact of the charge. Charges usually began slowly with only the last 50m or so being at the gallop

absolute wonderful video again invicta love these videos been around since your total war videos and love the channel growth

Biggest disaster was charging head on into war elephants

Yeah, you address one of the many things that always bothered me in the movie representation of the attack. Also the lack of shield and helmet use, and no mounted archers.

I didn’t think the formation change would do anything but honestly when at the end you compared them and pointed out what was likely going on I got anxious just thinking of being in the big blob and got an immediate morale boost thinking of the more realistic one. Like holy crap that one just feels more in control more able to improvise or adapt to the situation. Not gonna lie I’d love to see a full recreation of what could have happened with the revised army. Nothing against the original because it’s cinematic af and I’ll still get that adrenaline pump but oh man that could still be a really badass scene.

I remember watching that scene as a kid and was thinking "why didn't those orcs put up a wall of spears? are they stupid?"

The Winged Hussars charge in Vienna proves its possible 😂

It always bugged me that when Aragorn saw the 10,000 Uruk hai marching towards Helms deep that the riders of Rohan did not harass that army using horse archers with hit and run tactics and ambush tactics. Yet they just let a slowly moving Phalanx lumber its way to siege helms deep. A real missed opportunity by Theoden.

While I appreciate the approach of criticising the film's portrayal, which is absolutely done more for visual spectacle than proper battle tactics and strategies, I will note a few things: 1. The Rohirrim arrived unannounced, at dawn, in the rear of Mordor's formation. What little defence the orcs put up was most certainly not enough. Those braced orcs in the film could not have been more than one or two deep at best. All this is to say, that the bulk of the army was at the walls and gate, and attempting to (and succeeding in) storm the first ring of the city. 2. The orcs are notorious for their terrible morale and even worse discipline. It took a general like the Witch King to corral them into the fight, and he likely knew well that the moment fortune turned against the host, they would shatter and flee. That specifically is why he was first in through the gates, using his effect upon mortals to make a strong breach. The morale point is even more salient, as the Rohirrim's arrival would alone be a morale shock, but that it was an arrival immediately followed by a direct charge into the rear would only amplify the effects. 3. Theoden himself is described as a literal godlike figure charging down across the grass "as Aule of old". We often hear stories of single men doing more and having greater effect than any manner of number in history, such as Alexander. It is clear here that the presence of Theoden at the tip of the charge can be directly compared to Alexander at Gaugamela. The city is the fixing force, the Rohirrim the Companions. 4. Not shown in the film, Theoden and his officers agonise a great deal about their strategy upon arriving at Minas Tirith. That they are able to completely bypass the uruks guarding the northern road to Gondor is a wild stroke of fortune for them, which they capitalise to the maximum. Theoden deliberately splits off a portion of his riders to circle the wall and attack from another angle, as well as a second detatchment to delay the force guarding the road from reinforcing Minas Tirith. In short, it is perhaps tactically unsound if we were to assume that Men, not orcs were the besieging force. However Theoden knows his enemy, and knows that a single powerful charge at the correct moment will completely break the host. It is genuinely only the arrival of the Witch King which stops the Ride from being an unmitigated success, as his mere presence drives horses mad, destroying plans and formations without effort. Finally, the arrival of the Grey Company seals the deal. Think of it from the Witch King's perspective. He has a powerful, but unreliable, force which has had great success in taking its initial objective, which comes under attack at its most vulnerable moment, from two different direction. He's needed in three places at once, and so picks the most dangerous foe to his plans to avoid his whole force falling apart.

Gotta love that scale! I watch battlefield documentaries often with my friends and sometimes they're like "why didn't they just send some units to the flank that's being overrun?". Well, because it takes time to get a messenger on horseback from that flank to your command post, probably 1-2 kilometers away, and then again even more time to organize your reserves and send them over that same distance. It would probably take at least half an hour to get your reserves where they need to go, which is a VERY long time if that flank has been surrounded.

You are kinda forgetting several parts: 1 The part where the Orcs hate and fear the sun, and are not expecting it to come out for the siege. 2 The part where the Orcs have a blocking army in position to prevent the Rohirrim from aiding Miras Tirith. The Rohirrim bypass this army and appear with no warning. 3 The part where Orcs hate and fear horses. There is no doubt that the orcs would break. But I do agree that they would want to be more effective.

I don't have the time to watch the entire thing right now but I hope this takes into consideration that the orks were armed with scrap. You can even see an orc using a fork tied to a stick as a spear if I recall correctly

I have to pick upon the "loss of unit cohesion" point, especially the mention of horses not keeping lines and breaking formation essentially. It might have been true in early formations but at most since XIV century cavalry unit horses were trained specifically for keeping in line with each other, not speeding up to their full speed nor falling behind for whatever reason they encounter. Up to XVIII century we got such absurd situations of Turks relating their impression of winged hussar charges that the horses kept in perfect lines, didnt flinch at being shot at by guns and rifles, didnt stop or break formation even when their rider was shot off, didnt stop charging when a cannonball took one of the horses legs. I know this example is quite extreme, but you can at least expect horses of a rider nation to keep in line during initial charge. This also considers the next point, which is charging head on against braced spears. Winged hussars did it a lot, with losses, not too drastic tho, because then it comes to the lenght of your stick. If your lance is longer (up to 9m for hussars) than, say, Sweedish pikeman's pike (up to 7m) you are pretty much fine for retaliation since the pikeman who tries to stop you has a lance in his torso for a fraction of second that flings him back quite badly, removing a lot of oomph from the pike now unbraced and falling, flinching or just rising by too strong of a grip of falling pikeman. The insane training of the horses ment that they didnt bother with charging head on into the sides of wagons even, you can do that with animal training, it happened before. About going into ranks of infantry: since none guy with spear wants to be trampled, there happened sort of symbiotic decision between horsemen and infantry: the weakest or targeted infantrymen were making some sort of corridors between ranks of infantry with both sides trying to strike at passing horses (even with long thick stick its not this easy to stop half a ton of speeding animal, often armoured, even if you killed the horse, you still have half a ton of meat flung at your face - one of the reasons why even pikes broke before charges so often) while, since horsemen due to "honors" (and not at all due to most rich guy being in front because he can afford best armour for himself and his horse) had their best, most armoured in the front to open up the formation, then to stream into them and use sabres, swords, maces and so on instead of lances, to strike at the mentioned corridor left and right as often as possible. The "on the move" section seems to confirm my statement: the later periods of horseman use in combat, the napoleonic for example, they travel side by side to reinforce (and brag for any watchers from enemy) the training of the horses, that the horse HAS TO see its mates along himself all the time and its fine. This part of the horse training is especially crucial in charges to break the enemy formation (that is rectangular shape of formation), not to create a breach in line. The one huge aspect of the battle you missed almost completely is morale, but its hard to gauge how much an orc would be willing to die for Sauron nor how much a Rohirrim would be willing to give for relief of an ally in a very important war, so I kinda get it why you dodged this. Morale always was the name of the game with cav charges, most succesfull units in history took half of their success from enemy knowing how mad, ruthless and deadly they were, nevermind facts, they often ran away before melee (that also includes aforementioned winged hussars but many cases of medieval knights use too) Other than that: amazing job, deep analisys, superb knowledge :)

Beautifully done. I knew watching the charge in the theater the tactics were dumb. Still one of my favorite scenes ever.

Let me believe!

All the Rohirrim did was to distract Sauron's army so that the final relief force led by Aragorn and his friends can drive for the kill

A video I didn't know that I needed it. Great job !

I love Tolkien and LOTR movies so I absolutely enjoy all sort of deep dives! Also, I love these "true size" analysis. I always scratch my head when in books they say "army 10 000 strong marching/camping" etc, I cannot picture it in my head.

The sad thing is that the "Ride of the Rohirrim" was ultimately unnecessary. Aragorns ghost buddies (in the movie) cleared out the entire battlefield in like 5 minutes, remember?

Finally, someone says it. I got into an argument with a friend once when I told him this wouldn't work and he was pissed because he's a huge LOTR fan

We must agree, though, that the films did a tactical disservice; a glorious one, but a misshap nonetheless. In the book, surprise, surprise, it is better thought out.

In the books the Ride (as i read it) happens with Theoden designating 3 leading Eoreds (the Rohirric word for company or unit) that includes his own and Eomers that are to form 3 spearheads of the charge that the Eoreds behind can follow as their marshals deem best. You do get the sense the Ride was much more widely dispersed since after the initial charge Theodens Eored is described as far ahead of other formations with no enemies immediately there. The Rohirrim also dont directly charge the flank but achieve a attack on the rightward rear of the army of Mordor. In the books the orcs aren't in a giant column square before the city but are deployed in a semi circle with trenches encircling Minas Tirith. The orcs were "all drawn off to the assault" Also. This is base heresy and the grand conclave of stewards of Middle Earth and the Writings of the master Tolkien shall meet in counsel to decide your doom.

You only apply tactic and strategy if you expect to go back home -- this is not it. The main reason the formation is dense is they expected that they will lose their horse and fight on foot. Historically, cavalry units are often surrounded by enemy infantry after the initial charge because their formation isn't dense, just like you suggest. The Rohirrim's formation basically have cavalry units at the front and mounted infantry at the rear who dismounts after the initial charge -- that's why there are few of them facing the Oliphaunts because most of them are on foot by that point. Also the horses of Rohan are crazy.

Nonsense, you're treating it like a total war game, there are many factors to consider it, morale, overall situation, etc. Do you think the enemy would let them form rank 2k meter wide flank? They were low on morale until Theoden fired them up on his Death battle cry

I love this in depth look at the charge. I cant wait for more!

Bogies are spotted but unidentified, so it's never a bogey on your tail. Known hostile aircraft are bandits.

Bro really slandering Theoden. I can't go for that chief.

Peter Jackson doesn't understand tactics; this is well known.

I saw an interesting reddit post about the charge and how it was suicidal, but theoretically could have done a lot of damage anyway. To make a long story short, the devastation wrought by a heavy cavalry charge on an unprepared and ill-managed infantry force is solid, and the army of mordor was unorganized and spread out, especially in the book. With so many client forces under lesser commanders all moving and trying to get to the city and kinda doing their own thing, the cavalry *could* crush individual forces and cause mass panic/confusion. Still not tactically sound, and it takes the intervention of The One himself to make it work, but i thought the argument ghe person made was fairly well-reasoned and fascinating

I like the theory that the Rohirrim screamed "Death" not because it was a cool thing to say, but because it was humanity's war cry in defiance of their world's devil, Morgoth, who tricked humanity in ancient times to fear death. Their world's god, Eru Ilúvatar, gave death to humanity as a gift so that they could enjoy and appreciate their time on Middle Earth. Crying for death before going off onto a suicidal charge against evil was an important moment in Middle Earth's history: that after eons, the free men of Middle Earth finally have returned to Eru Ilúvatar's teachings, proving that Morgoth (and Sauron) no longer hold power over free men.

Rohan is a representative of central European Germanic peoples. This cavalry tradition contains something called the todesritt--death ride. The todesritt in the post Gothic tradition--primarily Prussian--is the concept that a heroic "do or die" attack is the only option left. Obviously, this is considered a tactic of last resort, but there is one battle that seems to prove that the death ride works--the relief of Vienna by the Polish Winged Hussars in 1683. That one event created a mythology surrounding the shattering effect of a properly conducted massed cavalry attack. A todesritt. So yes, to our eyes, tactically stupid, but not to more ancient armies who not only practiced the concept, but equipped and trained for it.

So a fantasy battle.. is fantasy.. nah nobody noticed before.. yeah.

"Do you not know defeat when you see it? This is Invicta's hour!"

In defense of the movie's case. 1.- Their priority was not to more efficiently win the battle, they were in a clock to safe Gondor, you said it yourself, flying took you a while to cross the 2 kilometers, how much time it would've taken them to take positions? even organized they are still 6 thousands souls, organizing them would take such a long time that Gandalf would've probably get killed by the time they began their assault. And even after attacking the orc army outside of the city, how much time would it take for any of the riders to enter the city? just more time given to the orcs to kill even more Gondorians. 2.- Since they were pressed by urgency they knew it was a suicidal task, a charge so dense that most likely would've pressured the riders in front to continue charging because otherwise they would've been trampled by their own, combine this with an army of cowardly, small and unorganized orcs, add also the presence of the King Theoden. We saw the result, many of the orcs were already trying to flee before Rohan even made contact. The riders weren't facing an opposing force, they were trampling fleeing children. 3.- I firmly believe that magic had something to do with this. As I understand magic in the Lord of the Rings world, has to do with two things: spirit (will) and chanting (using words, music and songs). The fact of having king Theoden and the complete Rohirrim chant and roar together in a charge focused on death and ruin would give power to them, their horses and their endeavour. So yes, tactically it was doomed to fail, but in context their bravery and union changed the scales and fate.

lol no one cares about tactics or strategy watching a movie, unless it is meant to be historically accurate. Interesting nonetheless.

Good film and commentary! However, I think a couple of things were missed. First neither the Orcs or Rohirrim were accustomed to fighting large set-piece battles. Along the borders of Rohan, conflict was more of a raid and reprisal matter similar to the English and Scots Reivers of the 16th century. A lord and his men riding out to recover plunder and livestock and punish the transgressors. As shown in the book and movie the Orcs often came out on the losing side. So, the King calls for the Rohirrim to ride to Gondor. It is stated there are 6,00o spears however, in the middle ages the term "Lance" meant a knight and his men, i.e. a squire, a man at arms (or two) one or two mounted archers a page or servant, perhaps even more. Although I think the number of Rohirrim cavalry was 6,000, if the term "spears" meant a small group the Rohirrim could be several times that number. (Akin to the "300" Spartans each of whom had a squire and a servant or two). Regardless, they are a feudal army "following their lords - barons, counts, earls and dukes. This "army" would be a number such groups formed around the next higher lord. In the middle ages armies commonly formed a vanguard, main body and rearguard. Upon contact, the vanguard would fall back on the flanks of the main body while the rearguard served as the reserve. But - in the heat of battle with the men and horses all worked up control could be lost and the jumbled mass would charge together! That sounds bad - as the video carefully detailed. However, no account was taken of the Orc army. I suspect the best of Sauron's army were attacking the city when the Rohirrim appeared in their rear. The movie shows that the Orc rear-guard may have been the force that earlier took Osgiliath. So they may have been in the rear to rest and reorganize a little. Being from Mordor they likely had little experience fighting cavalry except for defeating the counter-attack of the Gondor heavy cavalry at Osgiliath. This seems to have worked against the orcs who had a degree of false confidence at the start of the Rohirrim charge. The Orcs were a shamble of spears, swords and bows in no particular formation, no doubt with a mob of wounded and skulkers milling about the rear. They did not expect the attack so there were no ditches or palisades or stakes. A perfect target for a mass of veteran, angry horsemen. After a few so-so volleys of arrows the Orcs panicked and fled. Why the Rohirrim paused after routing the Orcs is not clear although they may have been instinctively trying to regroup.

As epic and glorious as the movie scene was, my inner Total War nerd is rolling around shouting profanities lmao.

book Theoden was a bit more tactful in his attack. Movie Theoden did give some of the same orders but in the end Rohirrim just ended up staying in one blob when Book Rohirrim had at least divided their force into three different groups, and then wisely didn't charge the mumlaks but attacked on foot with archers.

You missed a huge benefit to the blob. More people can hear Théoden's badass speech for +100% to all stats.

You cannot believe how long I've been looking for this video...

Tolkien talks about the Rohirrim Command structure and unit size in Unfinished Tales. The Basic unit was the Eored of 120 Riders. There would have been 50 Eoreds (120x50=6,000). I think they would have had a frontage 30 eored with 20 eored in reserve or in the 2nd rank. Each Eored would have been in a Wedge formation except Horse Archers who would not have charged but advance fire and then retreat or fire from the flanks. There might have dedicated Eoreds as Missle troops (bows & throwing spears) but no more than 10 Eoreds Theoden/Eomer took the center, Grimbold took the Left Flank and Elfhelm was on the Right Flank. So say Eomer had 20 Eoreds which included Theoden's Personal Guard Eored , Elfhelm & Grimbold had 15 Eoreds Each. Elfhelm attack went down into the siege weapons, Eomer & Theoden hit the center of the Mordorin Right Flank and Grimbold would have hit the rear of the Right Flank.

I love how the charge at helms deep is just so unrealistic that it doesnt even deserve a discussion lol.

In the LOTR movies, all Human military tactics were designed to look epic in movie theater, and very questionable in their wisdom in real situation. Apart from the ride of the Rohirrim scene, the design of their fortress at Helms Deep is very strange. Who designed a fortress with water channels large enough for Uruk-hai? The defense in Minas TIrith is also strange. If Gondor chose to defend their second tier of walls, instead of sacrificing their limited warriors to the outer walls, then all the Orc siege engines would be practically useless.

27:35 speaking of this specific situation on battlefield, I recommend reading the course of the 2nd Battle of Khotyn (1673). When Jan III Sobieski used cavalry to attack through the narrow breaches that were dug in Turkish fortifications by Polish infantry in the heat of battle. Sobieski then achieved success and Turks, although defending in a fortified camp with ramparts and bastions, lost 30 000 its soldiers and military personnel. The losses on the Polish side were insignificant although someone who dont know the details and realities could assume that such use of cavalry was extremely expensive.

In the book they charge because they think they are going to lose and all die. So king Theoden basically decides to go out like s gangsta. Alos there is a massive wall that surroundes the farm land outside the city called the Rammas Echor so it covered the advance of the Rohirrim and they charged through multiple breaches in the wall. They took the orcs by surprise

I love this style of video! Please keep it up!