Exactly

That's meeee ! My mom was crazy/ insane !

You have just described my childhood. Thank God people can understand now how frightening it is as a child. More like terrifying. My mother was a narcissist. Would love to know more about all this.

Dr. Daniel Siegel also talks about parental attunement. Some parents can’t read or since their children’s responses and needs. They’re mentally or emotionally checked out or may have addictions, developmental or mental health issues or trauma of their own.

I see it as a chain of damage, investigating the history of your ancestors can be very insightful and healing. Of course, sometimes people are just s**tty, but in my experience, it's people passing on trauma as they don't have the strength to go inward and process it. I also think that bodywork has a lot to offer for these conditions.

@@PurplePassionPaper I wrote this to another post. but maybe helps to understand how developmental trauma happens: transference is the feelings the client 'transfers' onto the therapist (it is a kind of displacement: the feelings you have towards your mother/father/siblings are being transferred onto the therapist so you see them as if they were your mother or sister...etc..the 'as if' is important. if the client thinks that the therapist is actually her mother/sister/father...etc...then she is psychotic. countertransference is the feelings that are aroused in the therapist by the client. there are two types of countertransference: 1, objective: the feelings aroused by the client through projective identification, 2, subjective countertransference: the therapist own feelings towards the client. It is really important that the therapist can differentiate between the two, so she won't confuse her own feelings with what the client projects into her. projective identification: it is part of the countertransference. as is mentioned above, it is through the mechanism of projective identification the client dumps her unbearable feelings into the therapist. it is beyond projection. when the client projects feelings onto the therapist, she attributes her own feelings to the therapist, but she is not actively eliciting those feelings in the therapist. through projective identification, however, the client induces feelings in the therapist. She pressures the therapist through verbal and non-verbal communicatoin to feel those feelings she cannot bear. That's what borderlines do all the time. Evacuating their unbearable feelings into others through projective identification. That's one of the main reasons why it is so hard to be around them. (e.g. there's a girlfriend and a boyfriend with at a party with a group of friends. girfriend is flirting heavily with another man from the group while boyfriend is watching. boyfriend feels really humiliated, but doesn't want to make a scene, so he leaves the party and goes back home on his own. after the party is over and the grilfriend gets home, the boyfriend tells her that her flirting with another man in his face made him feel sad and humiliated. Borderline/narcissitic girfriend feels of course starts to feel bad about herself because she feels guilty and ashamed, but she cannot bear it. So she evacuates these feelings into the boyfriend: she raises her voice and accuses the boyfriend of being antisocial because he left her and the group of friends without saying goodbye. When there's projective identificatoin, there's always a 'hook' in the receiver: the boyfriend is actually quite an introvert and at other occasions he didn't really want to go out with her friends. So the boyfriend starts feeling guilty and ashamed, he feels that he is the bad one, because yes, he did leave the party without saying goodbye to the friends. So although he was the one humiliated and hurt, borderline/narcissitic girfriend successfully induced the feelings of guilt and shame in him through projective identification, so she doesn't need ot feel bad. But projective identification is not always bad. It is the basis of empathy. When a friends tells you about the unfortunate things that happened to them and you start feeling sad, it is because your friend induced those feelings in you. and that's OK. we need to feel empathy towards each other. Also, the non-verbal baby communicates wth the mother through projective identification. When the baby feels hungry/in pain/uncomfortable, for the baby that's life threatening and persecuting. The baby needs to project these unbearable feelings into the mother. if the mother is responsive and can function as a container (the concept of container-contained comes from psychoanalysis, from Wilfrid Bion, and all other therapeutic modalities have co-opted it. If a therapist cannot contain the client, then she is not a good enough therapist), so if the mother can cootain the baby's unbearable feelings and think about it, feel it, do this for a suffcient amount of time and thus 'detoxify' them, process them for the baby and then project it back in a detoxified, bearable form, then the baby is contained. If the mother is a 'leaky container', and cannot detoxify the baby's projections, then what the baby will intorject is the 'nameless dread'. The concept of containing the feelings of the infant is quite similar to mentalisation. Children learn to mentalise - be aware of their own and other's internal states - because they are being accurately mentalised by adults: these adult can contain their negative feelings and can accurately mirror back the positive ones. Children develop personality disorders - I would rather say narcissistic/borderline/schizoid adaptations - because they have to adapt to inadequate caregivers who cannot provide the containing function becaus they are unresponsive/neglectful/abusive. What borderline clients need most is containment. Because they have never been contained by their caregivers. That's why they cannot regulate their emotions. Children learn to regulate their emotions and mentalise through a secure attachment with a responsive primary caregiver. Secure attachement is interactive co-regulation between mother and infant. People with narcissistic/borderline/schizoid/avoidant adaptations have never had caregivers who were securely attached and could contain their unbearable feelings. That's what is called developmental trauma. Alan N Shore is a neuro-psychoanalyst who is worth reading and a book called: 'Borderline, Narcissitic and Schizoid Adaptations - The Pursuit of Love, Admiratoin and Safety' by Elinor Greenberg. Hope this helps

Thank you! So well put

Agree

Are you sure it's not genetic?

Boom!! 💥💥💥💥 Exactly! Don't change your clarity and keep spreading this message. I keep coming back to exactly what you expressed perfectly.

Well said. In my study and experience, this is true. I cannot say that BPD doesn't have a genetic factor but everything I have learned suggests that no GF is necessary at least. The studies I read about that suggest a GF must exist find their evidence in studies of parents who supposedly raised their children well. I don't trust those parents to understand what they never learned. If one is unaware of healthy interaction for mental and emotional development, you will believe you did well in what you did do.

Would you agree your high functioning patients have emotional empathy that have BPD (which you approach with trauma treatment) is very similar to C-PTSD? There's a theory that pwBPD that succeed in therapy have emotional empathy and are suffering from PTSD while failing patients don't have emotional empathy and are actually narcissists. Essentially meaning BPD doesn't exist as suggested, what do you think?

Understandable, given there are many who have experienced big t trauma with no Ill effects though.

@@susanramen1615 From my perspective, as an ex client who is (very recently) hopeful to again be a client soon - after promising myself I would never trust taking talk therapy again - it’s NOT just the trauma.... It is negative non trauma or micro aggression or micro trauma events prior to and especially AFTER a major trauma that can make one BPD. Maybe one or two BIG traumas sandwiched between lots of micro stuff. I was always bragging to myself in my 20's/30's that I was AOK about losing a parent to suicide, and that I came out OK from it - I was ignoring how it was the LITTLE stuff combined with that one big thing that was ruining my life - that combined with all my baggage some from childhood and mostly from adulthood - plus what I saw as a very unethical situation with two social workers which certainly did not help matters - but thats another subject. JMHO.

Thank you so much. Sufferers of all these little t's have been ignored, forgotten and gaslight by the medical community. My life has changed so much because a provider like you recognized and acknowledged my trauma. Thank you.

Yes. 🎯🎯

There's also behavioral overlap between women originally misdiagnosed with BPD, and then later diagnosed with high masking-related trauma from ASD+ADHD. Bearing in mind their parents are also likely undiagnosed masking-related trauma ASD+ADHD

I wonder if maybe both can be true. That some people get BPD from trauma. But there could be others that don’t. Ex: Smoking causes lung cancer, and many people who have lung cancer were smokers or exposed to industrial smoke etc. But some people just get lung cancer even though they never smoked or was around smoke. Both are true

I agree with you that there's an attachment component to BPD. I know someone diagnosed with BPD who, as a baby, was laid down with their bottle propped up on a pillow facing a blank wall through the bars of the cot. That person's brain would not have been developing the way it's supposed to being held and looking into their mother's eyes while feeding.

Self sabotage. I relate. I'm 4 years Into channels like this to figure it out. Keep searching. You got this. We got this together. ❤

You'll get it together, it's tough and not your fault. Not everything goes right all the time, but your luck can change if you realize everything has ups and downs.

I grew up in 7 homes . Borderline monther, schizophrenic dad . I have some bpd traites , but suffer more from anxiety and panic attacks . I have stable friendships and have worked most my life . feel disconnected from all my feelings at times. i had a very narcissistic foster mom . was very hard not being allowed to feel all my feelings

My guess would be general happiness/ stable mood, balanced perspective, constructive habits, good character & and good/ balanced socialization. These traits seem to be adversely affected most by trauma. Reverse those, and I'm guessing that's what a person without trauma (or at least healed from trauma) looks like. 🤷‍♀️

@ajhproductions2347 remember the superstars in High School, the successful ones who were popular and are now VERY well off… yea THOSE are the ones that didn’t have trauma. Their parents worshipped them and that’s why they were successful.

Everyone has trauma. It's part of being alive and able to feel safe or not. No one goes through life without losing a loved one or having an accident or health scare or getting lost etc. Some people just go into denial better than others or their coping mechanism/s are still working for them. How a person looks on the outside is no reflection of what's going on for them on the inside. Success in some area does not mean that a person was loved or taken proper care of. It can mean the opposite and they've compensated. Anyone who says that they haven't experienced trauma lacks awareness. This woman clarified by saying big T trauma. As trauma is how a person reacts to an event, not the event itself, she can't know how big that trauma is because it can lay quite for years.

I've always thought BPD was the result of neglect or abuse in the early years - How many people don't reallize they experienced some form of neglect in early life such as emotional neglect? It's not severe enough to be realized by the child, but it still effects their mental development negatively.

ADHD is a strong predictor of borderline

I assume you meant PTSD? Makes me wonder what you thought the D stood for PDSD.

​@@NaNa-re3wcPedants of the world Unite!

​@@idontcare8405is it? I recognize that I am a year late, but can you cite references?

I deeply appreciate this comment. I believe there is a strong link between trauma and BPD, as well as an overlap of BPD symptoms with "autism + developmental trauma."

Thank you for this suggestion.

Don't use ISF for c-ptsd! I was sa as a child and that approach wrecked me. And I mean wrecked me. I ended up in constant dissociation ( freeze ), depersonalisation and derealisation. When I got out of it I just felt panic and went tught bsck into shutdown. I lost my job! Most of savings and 2,5 years of my life trying to get better. Basically I had to start from zero as if I was just 🍇ped a couple if days ago and all my progress over the years was gone. If you were 🍇ped as a child or anything like that be VERY careful with anything that forces you to split yourself up into unnatural parts and lets you reexperience you own abuse as a consequence. What actually helped in the end was the vagus nerve theory and somatic experiencing. Of course you are talking as well. But mostly working with regulating the nervoussytem and widening your window of tolerance. Traumatherapy has 3 stages: stabilisation, exposure and integration. And ISF as well as inner child work are a type of exposure therapy that belongs in the exposure and integration phases. But there are other methods you can use like EMDR, neurofeedback, somatic experiencing ect. I believe that ISF has it's place, but it can do damage as well.

Thanks for this!

I agree, labels can be helpful to some extent but can be very dehumanising if someone feels that that is their lot in life (it's not!). Find yourself a good relational therapist who will allow you to feel fully heard. Look into IFS (internal family systems) therapy too. Above all be compassionate to yourself, and I wish you good luck on your journey - you can do it! Speaking as someone who has done a lot of work on myself in therapy, I would say, do not lose heart, you can feel better if you are prepared to do the work with a good therapist, with whom you have a good rapport. Good luck 🙏

I'm in agreement, and couldn't have put it so well. Thank you.

I think the criteria for BPD can be looked at as symptoms. Many people experience those symptoms in their life, arguably everyone. When combing through my own journey, I can see that there have been times (especially at the beginning of my hours when things were the least treated and understood) more of those symptoms were present. I think BPD is a spectrum, but I also believe in order and I truly have BPD perhaps other conditions like trauma and ADH/ASD need to be managed. If after management someone still meets the criteria for a personality disorder then you could say they truly have it or they're severe or perhaps if they don't you could determine l, like I said, more of the "symptoms" from the other conditions. Also, as a spectrum, a lot of people will identify with the symptoms/traits at some point, but are they constant everyday? How many of them are happening everyday for the last 6-12 months or how many are occurring every week. The other point id like to make is depression. A lot of people confuse the emptiness of long term depression with BPD emptiness and I think therapists latch on to comments around empty or hollow and alarm bells go off for BPD, but along my journey and moving out of my 20s and getting to a place of stability, I can see clearly that I've always had a sense of self even if I didn't know it at times.

@@SamanthaParker-ir2gq Thank you for your comments. These are complex questions and honestly I don't believe psychologists and clinicians can fully provide us with answers, only paths for pursuit. For myself, neurodivergence appears to be the ground floor condition that other challenges quickly piled up on. Trauma for an infant that is wired neurodivergent may not be so readily recognized; a significant portion of that may fall silently into the realm of insecure attachment. An early relationship with the mother (not necessarily by any particular fault of the mother) that results in disorganized attachment, the sense of one's self worthiness and the trustworthiness of others becomes becomes distorted. Neurodivergence is a recipe for difficulty in relations and communications in general throughout life. As a child grows up, relationship traumas are bound to pile up. Virtually all of my lifelong difficulties are around relations, communications and the inability to form secure attachments on any level. Add trauma and stress and the internal experience seeps into the outer realm, sometimes awkwardly, sometimes explosively. Internally, I have intense feelings of needing to connect but I know I'll be betrayed once the person finds out who I am. The emotional disregulation becomes impossible to mask. Then comes the splitting, the rage, the distorted thinking, the paranoia, the dissociation and all the other wonderful traits associated with BPD. As you were saying, there is so much overlap in symptoms and traits that what it's called matters less. Whether it's symptoms associated with trauma, CPTSD, ADHD/ASD or BPD or whether it's a full blown personality disorder, the distinction starts to lose importance. What is important is that the symptoms have to be treated or managed in some way. I am better able to manage all of this through careful isolation where I can control my environment, monitor my internal state, avoid stress and focus on interests that do have positive results. In this way I'm better able to find and maintain an internal state of balance. Still, I can feel when the episodes are coming on. Sometimes it's a minor event that sets me into a rage. Other times it's an inconsolable ache that grows steadily inside. It can last for days or weeks or longer and all the traits can resume. I can feel it coming on in my brain, in my body and my heartrate, though I'm better now at not feeding it. There can be periods where the traits fully subside and I'm feeling good. Those times are such a blessing. At my age I'm settling in with the reality that I will never experience the attachment I've sought throughout my life. It's not possible for me and there's a peace in resigning to that. I have some years left and there is meaningfulness to be had. Creating with my hands has always been a good channel for intense feelings. Diet and exercise plays a very important role in my sense of wellbeing. I can take life or leave it and there's a peace in that as well. Blessings on your journey, Samantha and thank you again for sharing your thoughts.

For something is diagnosed as a disorder you have to present symptoms for a minimum of 2 years. So,for BPD, you have presnt with at least 7 of the 9 traits for BPD for 2 years.

@@samanthaginnifer7374 Personally, I've experienced BPD symptoms since fairly early childhood and I can tick every box in terms of traits. Not all at once. The traits are not always full blown, it's a spectrum and sometimes there's remission. I learned to mask symptoms and keep it "quiet". I've managed in most areas well enough to conceal the inner distress, except for when it comes to relationships. The intense need to attach, the agony and the rage when it fails cannot be concealed. It's gotten me into trouble and it's just better to accept relationships are not in the cards for me. I treasure my isolation and I guard it jealously. I come out for brief interaction when I'm ready. There are areas in which I enjoy success and immense satisfaction. Human relations is not one of them.

Speech isn't violence.

Lovely comment

Thank you for taking the time to write this. Very informative.

How do we know that increased sensitivity is biological in nature and not the result of environmental conditioning? is it possible to measure this apparent sensitivity in a new born, for example? How is that measured? What factors are measured and now is it controlled for?

@@simeonmorris1774 There is a genetic component to heritability of these disorders, which suggests a biological cause. Temperaments can be genetic so if someone is born to a parent that has this inherent sensitivity/emotional volatility then they are at an increased risk of developing BPD. But I believe, and I think also the literature states that BPD almost always is caused by a combination of genetic predisposition and environment/trauma.

​@@jessiearmstrong with the cause leaning heavily on the environment. A person without the susceptibility may still suffer BPD if they are abused enough, but that opposite can't be said. I think it is definitely a mistake to think that the reason a person suffers psychological distress is because of genetics. That makes it a genetic disorder not a psychological one. I would argue that it's more to do with a persons ability to resist the impact of trauma, rather than being susceptible to it. And epigenetics plays a huge part. It's entirely possible that generational trauma is both passed on via genes, and the home environment that is created by the expression of that inherited trauma. But still, the cause of the disorder is environmental: an unsafe environment during early development. A pyschological disorder, by its very definition cannot be biological in cause, because that makes it a brain disease of a neurological disorder rather than a psychological one: the pysche is not an object, it is a subject.

@@simeonmorris1774 I definitely didn't assert that it's purely genetic, because it isn't, but genetics do play a large role in whether someone will develop BPD or not and this is according to recent research (the Swedish twin study.) There are two genes that are implicated in the development of these disorders, the one for BPD overlaps with schizophrenia and bipolar. I think the cause is heritable temperament (such as neuroticism) and environment. I've spoken with people who had BPD children and I sympathise with them, because often times there are BPD people who did not have abusive childhoods but develop it anyway.

According to Bessel van see Kolk those numbers on bpd and trauma are much higher. People just don't understand their own needs, so they put a barrier of toughness and denial. "I grew up without a father and a mother who screamed her guts out every night, didn't affect tho". Denial is creepy.

My parents are successful lawyers and mssed up people at home.

Boom! 💥💥💥 You and I automatically get along with that unpacking ❤

🤣 The only people who don't believe in diagnoses on the psychopathy spectrum are--you guessed it--psychopaths.

Well said.

Yes. It's complex and if someone feels trauma it needs to be self acknowledged and processed correctly. I'm just coming up from a few years of every mental health rabbit hole and complex ptsd like you said which is personal and unique to the person should not be brushed aside. That does take understanding what we are talking about (tools) and then the self work. No one is coming to save us and it's up to me 100% is what I had to first accept. ❤

Exactly. People don't understand that trauma is not the event. It's what happens in the mind and body in reaction to the event. There are some events that most people would react to in the same way like childhood sexual assault. Other events that people react to differently. It's one reason why trauma can be such a lonely experience when most people don't understand the trauma of a lost bike and the trauma sufferer is invalidated. I read an interview with the singer Debbie Harry where she said that she'd been r aped and her partner at the time Chris Stein's guitars stolen. For her, the guitars being taken where more of a problem than the attack on her. That would probably seem strange to most people, but her feelings about her experiences have to be accepted especially when supporting her recovery.

Yeah I call BS. BPD is real and it doesn’t even need trauma to develop. There are definitely genetic factures that contribute, and quite frankly just bad luck too.

Yes 💯

Developmental trauma - interesting. To be addressed in a forthcoming video - can one separate PTSD from developmental trauma. Regardless, what Yeomans designates as the difference is the degree to which traumas fingers insinuate into many aspects of a person's life, such that they might then be exhibiting personality disorder symptoms and their treatment would be advised to follow that course.

you can't tell what someone's motivations are by the phraseology that they use when they describe their trauma. That's where psychiatrists go too far.

Could it have been from a news program or television show/movie? Curious

@@Yourfavoritehermit thanks ❤️

I get that. I did at least two solid years of just being alone and in my wild feelings and pain to even have a chance to resonate with this type of depth. Not just this but all of the rabbit holes connected to mental awareness. I literally had to work out to get in shape for the real work outs. So I get you fully on your sharing ❤

No not everyone.

Yes. Knowing someone with BPD, I know that there was trauma in their early attachment development. It interfered with their sense of self. Trauma is when someone perceives a threat to their safety. Someone already has a sense of self though.

Whatever may be the reasons, I believe I am constitutionally hypervigilant and the treatment for BPD is what's helped me, not a trauma treatment.

@@BorderlinerNotes Thank you very much for your quick reply and your answer!

@@BorderlinerNotes Hi, if you're hypervigilant .... then try Somatic Experiencing. A body-focused approached can calm down your fight/flight. This is a bottom-up approach, which differs to TFP's 'top-down' approach.

I think you general description is how I understand it. I think of BPD having a syndrome of identify diffusion, basically meaning that the person can have extreme and rapidly shifting ideas about themselves and others. Gunderson basically said that all the other symptoms (abandonment, anger/rage, impulsivity, distrust in others and etc.) of BPD is "subsumed" by identity diffusion. Imagine having these unpredictable shifts in perception or others and self and how disruptive that would be to ones life. On the other had, I think of PTSD being a condition that has major disruptions in some areas of one's life, but not usually all and their sense of self (identity) is intact; consequently, making much easier to navigate most relationships overall. Hope this makes since.

Yes. Put someone with C-PTSD in a different environment and they'll react differently. The borderline will be the same because that's their personality. There's very little room for change. The C-PTSD person can feel safe or be triggered. They'll have some ability for awareness of their behaviour and emotions. It depends how severe their C-PTSD is. Trauma is not feeling safe. Borderlines have a fear of abandonment.

Sarcasm isn’t humor. Literal definition is that it intends to hurt the person where talking to. It doesn’t come from a place of love, ding a ling.

Agree!!!!

It potentially changes the shame and stigma around it. For example, CPSTD directs the root cause in the name itself. (which wasn’t created on KZfaq btw. I believe it was potentially Pete walker, who is a licensed therapist and psychologist, coined the term) whereas “personality disorder” may make the individual feel there is something inherently wrong with the individual themself. (Can easily be interpreted “your personality is wrong and not the way it should be”) I have had therapists who get very split when it has come to diagnosing me. Everything from ADHD, to BPD, to bipolar disorder. And I’ve had therapists who will tell me “I don’t think you have BPD because you can clearly distinguish your feelings and articulate them.” But I have also done a FUCK ton of trauma work (like an exceptional amount most people could not afford because my family is wealthy) I felt very numb as a kid and definitely feel even looking back, my internal world was barely a shell. Now I feel everything vibrantly and express myself extremely well, but have needed to learn how to recognize what people are capable of giving me in terms of intimacy and presence. I’ve had pretty tumultuous relational issues for sure, but potentially it could be a sigh of growth that I am learning to choose to speak my truth, even if I lose people. I’m learning to let go of control. I had one therapist so vehement that I was ADHD. I’ve had therapists who hear I have had relational issues recently and just go straight to “you have BPD.” And I’ve had therapists who hate the DSM and believe I just had a lot of attachment trauma. All this has taught me honestly is that diagnosis doesn’t matter because it’s all fake and “educated speculation.” I just want a therapist who helps me feel my feelings, process mentally and emotionally painful events in my life, and give me relationship skills that help me find and maintain connections that I want. But yes, changing the name matters to some. Diagnoses matter to some. It doesn’t matter in the end though. What we are trying to all do is make sense of our emotional lives in an intellectual way so that we can feel safe to trust ourselves enough to process our feelings and live an embodied, but regulated, life. Please note, I have had many therapists because I could afford to and that I have been in therapy since I was nine. Also, every time I was hospitalized as a kid, I always got assigned a new psychiatrist and therapist.

''Oh, you're a naughty one, Saucy Jack!'' From the musical about Jack the Ripper, Spinal Tap. You are somebody I see somewhere, often. With comments worth reading-- thank you.

​​@@sexykoreanchic123WOW! Yes! There was a few extraordinary comments and I think you just hit the spot on the dot 🎯! Your takeaway ability to articulate the sweet spot from as you said the luxury of various and lengthy therapy is exactly the conclusions I have come to about the potential God like complexes and so individually sure the mental health field is that it can actually harm and not even at least be neutral in it's approach. Anyways you already said it exact. Keep sharing your earned regulated wisdom. ❤

The difference is that a personality disorder is not curable where as PTSD/C-PTSD is. Not only does that matter for the person if they're being labelled for life, but also with their understanding of the potential for their own healing. It also means that people can be written off with medication for BPD instead of the costly and time consuming treatments for their trauma in the case of PTSD and more likely many traumas in the case of C-PTSD. Diagnosis means the development of treatments and for people in some parts of the world the difference between medical insurance covering their treatment or not.

It's DEFINITELY genetic.

@@Yourfavoritehermit No. BPD can develop in the absence of trauma. But there is ALWAYS a genetic component.

@@Yourfavoritehermit It's not both. It's ALWAYS genetic. Environmental factors are secondary. Can you read?