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Arahanthood through jhana and arahanthood without jhana. As you said, they can be both right. If arahanthood is like a beach, so jhana is like a ferry boat. It needs money to buy, but it'll be easier to reach the beach. But it doesn't mean that you can't reach the beach without that. You can also use an ordinary boat and it'll be harder one. Arahanthood without jhana analogically shares same challenge like the ordinary boat.

I think it's quite simple (from my Theravada perspective): the shamata jhanas (absorption concentration) are not needed for the vipassana jhanas (momentary concentration) that lead to enlightenment. However, there are 3 points to add here: 1. They do help when the going gets rough. They provide solace to those who are in the Dark Night (of the soul). 2. They can dramatically speed up progress towards enlightenment. 3. Once fully enlightened, someone who has also mastered the shamata jhanas is higher in the hierarchy of attainments (of letting go). I am simply reproducing what I've read. In particular the discussion of Jhanas by Daniel Ingram, which follows a very flexible definition, but also a fine-grained phenomenology. But also a text I finished yesterday (as I want to practice the Shamata Jhanas): BPS, wheel 351, The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana. He also wrote a more scholar work on the Jhanas, The Path of Serenity and Insight (based on his dissertation: A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation), but that I hope to read later. In terms of practice advise for really deep Jhanas, I read a short document by Ajahn Brahma on Jhanas. He has a very high bar for what is and is not Jhana.

Thanks Dough for all your teachings, this topic is certainlya controversial one, in some theravada Buddhist countries this topic is still being debated, now thousands of years, so will be with us for many more years to come. Even today, places like Sri Lanka, traditional theravada place, two venerable monks, who claimed they are Arahat, have two different views on how they attain Arahantship. One believes through Jhanic practice and Sapapatti and the other by passing Jahana. The issue here is , many make conclusions with limited reading of the subject, and cherrypick things to suit their own viewpoint, so no wonder why samma ditti is first in the eightfold path. Ajahn Brahms' view on this subject is well known, as he wrote in his book mindfulness, bliss and beyond (Chapter 9), in which he claimed Buddha found Jhana and what Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta achieved were samapatthi (formless attainments). The deeper you read into sutta’s, one will realise Budhha hasmore than one method , he bespoke his message depend on the person who approachedhim, and his/her, perhaps level of understanding of the subject, example SN 12.70 for Susima, MN 64 for Malunkyaputta, MN121 for Ananda. Though understanding ofthese differences are important for all but most important is one's practice and deep contemplation (insight) to thrilakhana/vipallasa. In MN118 there are 14 ways to samadhi, this further expands to 40 kamatahan. Also, if you do a comparative study you will find 16 steps in DN22/MN10 (satara satipattana) , MN118 (Anapana sati) and Jhana/samapatthi (numerous discourses), there are many similarities between methods. So if one is looking for a quick method to attend various maga/pala (10 in all, enterers, returners and non-returners), bad news, no quick fix here but deep dive into the subject. Though I do not agree with exclusion of re-birth in, so called secular buddhism you and others in the west have championed, perhaps you may argue that people like late Anagarika Dharmapala in Sri Lanka is a secular Buddhist) has set precedence. Another topic for another day. Though I do n't post comments on the net on a regular basis, I found your subject matter knowledge is insighful, good for beginners, as well as mid level and experienced practitioners, so keep up with good work.

Practice makes perfect ... You will gradually get this answer through the rough path to the goal with the help of our teachers whether alive or ...not... Studies are good but better spend time experience it by giving your best in an actual action. Sorry my English is limited but I'd say jhana is somewhat necessary along the way and more if you wanna go to higher level..... Arahanhood all needs these 4 stages of jhanas even they might vary a bit depending what kind of Arahand one will attain. I'm just one of those who have been doing it seriously not wanting to be reborn ever again....and prove the teachings from the Lord Buddha's.... it's just unexplainable..... Wish you all the best of luck Cheers.❤🙏

This is a wonderful, deeply enlightening discussion, Doug. Thank you so much. I think you're absolutely right that the Jhanas are one way to advance towards awakening. It is a great, powerful way that holds particular significance because it happened to be what Sakyamuni probably used. It is also very suitable for whole-time monastics that would spend many hours a day meditating but, at the end of the day, it is just one method and it may not be the best for everyone. You are probably correct that the suttas reflect an evolution from fixating on this particular (original) method to acknowledging a diversity of paths. As a personal reflection, my own take on Buddha's message about samatha (and meditation in general) goes something like this: Buddha was told by many of his teachers that the way to awakening was in samatha: you get to a very deep state of concentration and then you can experience the world in a different way, you get an epiphany and you're changed: for some you feel your being expanding (as in the second attainment), for some you connect to a universal atman (as in the second attainment), for some you notice the nothingness of the universe (third attainment), for some you connect with your deep feelings and produce bliss (first jhana), for others you go beyond that and reach contentment (second-third jhana) or equanimity (fourth jhana) and so on and so forth. Buddha tried that, as he tried asceticism. He found, just as o asceticism, getting into samadhi was very useful if done _in moderation_ (middle way) because it trains your mind, lets you tap into inner resources of happiness and wisdom, and especially because it teaches you to see the world in different ways, which shows that your usual state of mind is not unique and not the ultimate truth. You're looking at the world through different angles. However, those states are not awakening by themselves and the perspectives they show are just as your usual world vision, not better, not worse, not more real, not less. After you feel those perspectives, you let them go, and accept that the world is what it is and there's no ultimate truth or ultimate experience that we'll enlighten you. Those grand mystical experiences are useful but still impermanent and ultimately not your self and unsatisfactory. You realize as well that what you feel in samatha is influenced by what you expect to find (they're "volitional", your desire creates them just as it creates your ordinary perception), whether you expect to find unity with the universe or a big nothingness or a feeling of bliss, etc. After noticing this, you go back to your ordinary life with your gained wisdom. That's the real awakening

As ever your clarity is appreciated. At this stage of my practice, this debate is interesting and insightful but somewhat remote but not irrelevant. With thanks, in-kind regards.

Hi Doug and congratulations for examining this topic exhaustively. Leave no stone unturned, as they say. If a person needed to cross a great ocean, for example, then he or she would have to make the determination to do so. Without the intention to do so, a person may not gather the resources needed for the journey. Such an undertaking requires a mindset that takes the journey as paramount in one's activities. You touched upon this by mentioning the Noble Eightfold path as being the focus of a Buddhist's intent on overcoming Dukkha. Samma Ditthi, right view, or the first of the Four Noble Truths is of course the first of these that helps clarify the necessity for making this oceanic voyage if we accept my simile. above. The various proclivities of the individual having started this Dharma journey, will be what drives the specific causes that may or may not produce the pleasant karmic results that we otherwise term Jhanic meditative absorption. Part of our Dharma journey will require us to undertake meditation, Samma Samadhi, to the degree to which the five hinderances fall away. Informed especially, by our Buddhist Right intention, what happens after the five hinderances recede from our mind's focus, will be a deepening rapture that either focuses on the beauty of the rapture itself(let's call it jhana) or explores any aspect of Dharma wisdom that may be present ,Samadhi. Both states support each other. Both suffuse the individual with mental spaciousness and ease in one's daily activities and create a focus upon anicca, anatta and dukkha. The degree to which either of these occur is not really predictable, but they will become part of the passing Dharma journey. Thanks again Doug.

Thanks for the videos.

Thanks a lot for the profound video and info box! 🙏🏻 You should know that I consider your channel a real gem. I love the German thoroughness (Gründlichkeit) here - and as a German I really know what I'm saying... 😉😂

Thank you for all your shared knowledge. It is so rational and logically.

Being a secular Buddhist having no other in personal contacts with other Buddhists, it seems important to me to at least attempt to reach the jhanas, if I have the time, which I do, since I find the practice pleasurable and it gives me brief periods of equanimity following attempts, occasionally. Also, since my practice is the Eightfold Path, I should attempt all eight, whether I am successful or not...?😞 You made a good point about not developing an attachment to the jhanas.

Another excellent episode. I am a 30+ year meditator who sat with Soto and Rinzai centers, and did several longterm practice periods at Bhavana. However, due to several life-altering events in 2015, my study and practice has been haphazard since. Your discourses have been an excellent review as I endeavor to return to a more consistent practice. Gassho Sensei

Awesome video 👍👍👍

I appreciate you throwing info out there with the best of intentions, and I’m in the same boat for sure ..and with my track record probably not attained to right view either. So thank you for an open dialog, may we keep each other’s interest towards the goal as dhamma brothers! Even if we may happen to fight over the ketchup😉

I was part way reading Ajahn Brahms 'Mindfullness, Bliss and Beyond'. He really pushes Jhana in there and mentions in the section regarding the Satipatthana sutta about not being able to go to truly have insight until we have attained states of Jhana which I personally found strange. Especially since I find myself focusing on Mindfullness/Insight based practice. Then I found this video, it cleared things up for me a lot. It feels to me like Insight/Mindfulness practices without hinderances is one of the more practical ways for a lay person to apply these teachings on a day to day basis and see the benefit from the meditation radiating out into normal life? (for background, I'm finding your videos on various buddhist dharma and joseph goldsteins teachings on the satipatthana very useful) I'm not sure if I'm making sense, or if i've got the wrong end of the stick... I'm fairly new to all this, any advice is truly appreciated! Thanks for the great videos Doug, may you be well!

Great video.

So much pure gold here again from the always excellent Doug! I've been a big supporter of the Brahma-viharas and MN 52, Atthaka City, was instrumental there! Bahiya also is a wonderful example but SN 35.95 with Venerable Malunkyaputta extends the instructions if you ever want to take a peek. Finally, I'd love a talk on Perception Meditations. These also seem to do away with Jhana and instead focus on seeing reality through a certain lense to produce Awakening. Examples include AN 7.49, AN 10.60 and SN 35.147 wherein viewing phenomena as impermanent or ceasing lead to Nibbana. Also of interest is the curious case of AN 3.32 where Ananda asks for a type of Samadhi that must lead to Awakening (Doing away with the problems of Jhana attachment), the Buddha declares the perception of cessation is such a Samadhi state. Thank you so much and I look forward to a Perceptions video as well! May you be well

Thank you. I would have thought, Jhanas or Pratihara/Dyana are stages in ones development in meditative practice. I think as the mind becomes more and more quiet one begins to experience absorption, its inevitable,. And I assume there are different level of absorption, as one progresses. And as meditative practice is the way to samadhi, they are inevitable steps of ones development.! No absorption, no samadhi... I have very little knowledge of Buddhist literature, but what you so eloquently explain regarding early suttas mostly I can relate to as a meditator, up to my level of course. As long as one thinks that jhanas are somehow a buddhist "thing" then one may conclude incorrect conclusions from the Bahia sutta. At least that is what I feel you have an acute mind and a deep interest. Hope you put as much passion in your practice... Thanks

Very nice!!!Do you have a video about the 8fold paths

I have meditated for past few years. A year back I was quite free from work, so I tried to meditate like 8-9 hours a day. I had high level of discipline as well, like waking up on time, no TV or passing time. Limited talks and maintaining the 5 percepts. What happened was in 4rth or 5th day. I suddenly felt my whole-body wobbling while meditating and then when I kept meditating further the whole body felt like it's made of water. There was calm and coolness in my whole body and mind. I remained in that state for 2-3 days more. The mind is very poise and at peace. I had never felt anything like this before. Then suddenly I had to engage in work. I was not able to meditate this much. 2 months later I did my first 10-day vipassana retreat and I again reached that state on second day of retreat. I didn't progress beyond that. But stayed in it for rest of the retreat. I believe that's the first jhanic absorption. Since it matches the definition.

Sir, I've been following Leigh Brasington's instructions to get into Jhana (all freely available) and it took me less than two weeks to get to the First Jhana. I had never even heard of jhanas before, so I believe the jhanas are far easier to attain than it is generally believed.

This is an insightful lecture. I know people who had an experience of spontaneous "jhana" (they called it bliss)...I agree, people can cling to it; or think they are more "evolved" than others spiritually. It seems jhana is a natural high, and is an amazing state to be in.

Thank you

Splendid! Like setting upright that which had been overturned ;) may I ask what the sutta is that discusses liberation through realizing the impermanence of a given jhana or brahmavihara? Edit: I found them in the links!

Thank you Doug! I've been reading Bikkhu Bodhi's translations and am very intrigued by the "In Tandem" Sutta (AN 4.170) on the relationship of Serenity and Insight for enlightenment (Chapter VIII, Part 2.2. in "In the Buddha's Words"). There it seems like there were already different "success stories" noted at the time. Especially the fourth (a monk "frustrated by the dharma") is interesting, but I'm unsure of the meaning. I would love your insight/opinion on the sutta. Might even be worth a video? Thanks again and take care.

One of my favorite songs is by Todd Rundgren called "International Feel" with the lyrics (and music to go with them)... "'Cause there's always more... there is more..." That's like going beyond to the Formless Attainments it seems...

Thanks again Doug. This one was particularly useful. I think it was in this video or the previous one where you said that dhyana is like temporary liberation. Do you know of any sutras that say that explicitly? I haven't come across that yet, only having seen the 7 Factors of Awakening in the Four Dhyana descriptions.

I prefer the Mahāyāna Sūtras over early Pāli Suttas, but the Buddha's delving into the Jhãnas is definitely a highlight from the Canon. Samhādi is a very important topic. The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is my favourite Pāli text, do you have a video on it Doug?

Its very insightful. i can learn alot from comparing buddhist techniques with say patanjali's yogasutra. Atm i dont know how different 4 jhanas including the 8 fold path are from say the first chapter of yogasutra which seems quite analogous. I believe there was a rich synergy with other yogis of the time.

Yes it's a must, there are untrained instant jhanna (when someone never attain jhanna in his/her life before but the mind become calm and attain jhanna because of living Buddha teach the dhamma directly, and going forth to liberation) and well trained jhanna (someone that already well trained in attaining jhanna , and developed it to liberation after get further instruction from Buddha)

Love the video! I do wonder why the question keeps rising, “is jhana pre-Buddhist?” Unless I’m missing something, Brahmanism which was ubiquitous in contemplative circles at the time was affectively a jhana based tradition. Fun fact, the three truth of brahmanism are the basis for the three marks of existence. These were: 1. Bliss 2. Permanence and 3. True Being or true self. This shows pretty clearly that the three marks of existence are a counter argument which is important and understanding and experiencing them. I always think it’s funny that people interested in early Buddhism aren’t also interested in Brahmanism in order to gain better context.

Thank you for this wonderful lecture. 🙏 Jhana will help towards enlightenment by cleansing the mind and soul. Jhana can't be attained without the 10 precepts. It could be said that jhana is easier to attain when young, before the mind and soul become jaded by sins.

Dear doug, Thank you so much for doing this for us. Your videos pull me back into what's important when the attraction of samsara leads me astray. However, I do need your help. I have a problem with consistency. I might mediate today, read buddhist books, watch videos and then tomorrow, the world sort of pulls my attention into it. And then I forget or reason out some excuses to postpone my practice. I've got this deep deep desire for companionship, sex, intimacy. I feel conflicted. Should I suppress those desires. Can I harmonise both things? Having a consistent, decent meditation practice and also crave soft warm loving touch of this samsara? Please help!

Based on my reading, I think it is very possible that deepest absorption was a meditative technique practiced before The Buddha rediscovered vipassana meditation which lead to wisdom , (rather than bliss and finally, equanimity). Since absorption did not lead to Nirvanna, I think this may be why he parted company with his two meditation teachers, no less than his subsequent, aesthetic teachers and comrades, when their methods also did not lead to Nirvana. I notice Bhante G seems to give short shift to Kasina meditation (it seems to be tainted by the pursuit of ''powers'' as per the Visuddhimagga), but perhaps it is just because he is satisfied that dry insight is a sufficient foundation for learning Vipassana.. Dry insight vipassana seems to be a program much more workable to the Western schedule. Many vipassana retreats give several days to classic absorption techniques (usually taking the breath or the rise and fall of the abdomen as the meditation object), and then begin teaching vipassna using a scanning of the body technique. From the other direction, there are many in the debate who feel that the last tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta (usually given as being the classic on Samatha meditation IS vipassana (contempation of impermanence and not self and letting go). The Buddha used anapanasati preferentially and said that this practice could lead to the enlightenment factors. I'm so taken with the Anapanasati Sutta's practice, that I often feel content to remain with it (and not pursue vipassana). I don't see even first jhana on the horizon! It would seem to require very close to a monastic commitment. But perhaps if I can bring mindfulness more fully into my non formal practice , then deeper states of concentration (and the elusive nimmita!) may develop. I am not clinging to it!! Thank you for a fine installment.

Do you know of any scientific research on Jhana? Could you maybe do a video on the scientific validity of some of the Buddhist practice in general? (I know that might be a broad and in depth topic for a video) I would feel much more confident in spending time doing the practice if I knew that they have been at least somewhat scientifically validated. In case it’s just a placebo. Love your videos!

"All you can do is set up the conditions for the jhāna to arise" ... (barre center for buddhist studies) Just sit.

I'm concerned about the belief in non-linear rebirth based on states of consciousness i.e. being reborn in a jhanic realm when one still has defects/skandhas. I would imagine that it's possible, similar to how the death bardos can over ride karma can be a place to send one to a better place, inspite of defects. What I do believe is the influence of the state of mind upon death determining the trajectory of consciousness and quality of rebirth, but I think that's not usually strong enough to say, put one in a different species of nature than planned by the being.

Thank you for the great summary. In the Pali cannon, the jhnana stages are divided in 4 jhnana stages of form (Rupa Jhnana) and 4 jhnana stages of non-form. These two types of Jhnana, the Buddha had learned from his two gurus. Obviously, both gurus did not attain enlightenment. The Buddha taught insight meditation which is now widely believed in the Theravada tradition as path to enlightenment. So, I think you are correct that Jhnana is not essential for enlightenment. However, I do think that Jhnana stages (any of them) do help enhancing insight meditation.

🙏🏼

Hi Doug , thanks for your videos 🙏☸, I have a doubt , is there any sutta where is mention any way to develop abhiññas or how to get it before 4th jhana ? Becuse the function of the 4th jhana is use thats skills/nowledges for erradicate mind impurities thanks

Yea

In the Theravadin version of the Susima-sutta the arahant monks questioned only deny having the formless attainments and supernormal powers. Susima never asks about the jhana. But in the Sarvastivadin version he does ask and the arahant monks also deny having attained any of the jhana. Now, which version is more authentic, I don't know. Wen in his excellent study A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism gives more credibility to the Pali version, but overall agrees with the dry insight path.

I am reading MTCB2 by Ingram, the author gets very technical about 4 jhanas. It gets very technical into sub jhanas and sub subjhanas and the experiences related to each. It also distinguishes form jhanas from formless jhanas making 8 total jhanas. Ingram categorizes the 8 fold path into 3 categories: Sila, Concentration, and Insight. The author suggests that Jhanas fall into the category of Concentration and advises to investigate the 3 characteristics of existence while in each jhana to attain Insight. I wonder what brain activity is occurring in Jhana, is it affecting the opioid system or the cannabinoid system?

Please consider DN 29 Pāsādika Sutta: These four kinds of indulgence in pleasure, when developed and cultivated, lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. Cattārome, cunda, sukhallikānuyogā ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattanti. What four? Katame cattāro? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Idha, cunda, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. This is the first kind of indulgence in pleasure. Ayaṃ paṭhamo sukhallikānuyogo. Furthermore, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption. It has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. Puna caparaṃ, cunda, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā … pe … dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. This is the second kind of indulgence in pleasure. Ayaṃ dutiyo sukhallikānuyogo. Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption. They meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ Puna caparaṃ, cunda, bhikkhu pītiyā ca virāgā … pe … tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. This is the third kind of indulgence in pleasure. Ayaṃ tatiyo sukhallikānuyogo. Furthermore, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption. It is without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. Puna caparaṃ, cunda, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā … pe … catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. This is the fourth kind of indulgence in pleasure. Ayaṃ catuttho sukhallikānuyogo. These are the four kinds of indulgence in pleasure which, when developed and cultivated, lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. Ime kho, cunda, cattāro sukhallikānuyogā ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattanti. It’s possible that wanderers who follow other paths might say, Ṭhānaṃ kho panetaṃ, cunda, vijjati yaṃ aññatitthiyā paribbājakā evaṃ vadeyyuṃ: ‘The ascetics who follow the Sakyan live indulging in pleasure in these four ways.’ ‘ime cattāro sukhallikānuyoge anuyuttā samaṇā sakyaputtiyā viharantī’ti. They should be told, ‘Exactly so!’ Te vo ‘evaṃ’ tissu vacanīyā. It’s right to say that about you; it doesn’t misrepresent you with an untruth. Sammā te vo vadamānā vadeyyuṃ, na te vo abbhācikkheyyuṃ asatā abhūtena.

On the breath thing, it is possible breath is an obstacle (a thorn) because it is difficult. In Zen, it is taught that the place when you have exhaled and have not inhaled is still, but that most people start to think when they start the inhale, and getting past that moment without starting to think is a serious skill to cultivate.

Hi, Are there any guides on how jhana is done.

Doug, what does your personal meditation practice look like?

Hi Sir 🙏🙏What after the Jhanna? Can you please explain. Thank You 🙏🙏

Doug. What is your opinion about Keren Arbel's take on the Jhana-Sati relationship? I find *her* [Edit! I initially wrote "his", a big typo] argument convincing

I think the relevant thing here is the disbelief in rebirth, because as long as that’s a foundation we won’t get very far in a mutual understanding. Taking Bahiya’s attainment at face value and not realizing he was a disciple under Buddha Kassappa is the issue. (Ud I 10) So we have to reconsider if the Early Buddhist Texts believed rebirth as “mind moments” or “actual death and rebirth”. Which I’m quite certain the former is false. DN 1 Brahmajala Sutta: These are the seven grounds on which those ascetics and brahmins assert the annihilation, eradication, and obliteration of an existing being. Imehi kho te, bhikkhave, samaṇabrāhmaṇā ucchedavādā sato sattassa ucchedaṃ vināsaṃ vibhavaṃ paññapenti sattahi vatthūhi. Any ascetics and brahmins who assert the annihilation, eradication, and obliteration of an existing being do so on one or other of these seven grounds. Outside of this there is none. Ye hi keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā ucchedavādā sato sattassa ucchedaṃ vināsaṃ vibhavaṃ paññapenti, sabbe te imeheva sattahi vatthūhi … The Realized One understands this … pe … And those who genuinely praise the Realized One would rightly speak of these things. yehi tathāgatassa yathābhuccaṃ vaṇṇaṃ sammā vadamānā vadeyyuṃ.

I had a tiny taste of enlightenment. I was daydreaming about a man that survived a horrific brain injury. His name was Phineas Gauge, most of his head was blown out, but he lived for 12 years. I wondered if meditation would matter if your brain was blown out and suddenly I realized i am Not my brain. Being an engineer and really thinking that my identity was tied to what dumb ideas i come up with... I think i briefly understood what nonself or anatman really means. I got over my brain... It was VERY brief but very profound, the entire world just stopped and i wanted to laugh and cry at the same time. Then i tried to articulate what the answer toy original question... And i lost it.

I dont think that without meditation, we can get enlightenment ...... need many hrs meditation for cutout from current world that make u help in cutting anger, emotions.... etc which lead sufferings Forest monks are better chance to get enlightment

is it still possible for greed, anger etc to come back once jhana is achieved??

I am pretty sure Jhana was pretty common in Indian astetic/meditation pre-Buddhist tradition. In Yoga Sutra and Upanishad texts, it explain the importance of Dhyana (Jhana), which means deep meditative absorption, one step before attaining the Samadhi, the final step of Yoga. The story tell us that Siddharta Gautama have some period of time learning from Alara Kalama (and Uddaka Ramaputta?), and they already have mastery over Jhana. Of course, they have not master the Fourth Jhana yet. Hence they were not enlightened at that time. So Siddharta Gautama left them after he had equaled them or even surpassed them on that same Jhana mastery.

Jhanas are nice, but they can be quite ego-reinforcing, and the pleasant afterbuzz doesn’t necessarily translate into any insight or benefit in daily life. If you can get into them relatively quickly and easily, go for it, but I can’t fathom wasting half-an-hour trying to get into the first jhana, let alone hours and hours. An awareness practice and self-inquiry are the big kahunas here, and they will probably change your life quicker and more powerfully than the jhanas

How do we know, we got enlightenment, Final stage?

I tend to think that consistent practice of the little things would be more important for awakening than deep meditative states. That's why I'm not enlightened. I don't do the little things like I should.

I do believe that the pali cannon teaches that he learned the jhanas from Alara Kalama & master Uddaka.

Read Bhikkhu Bodhi's paper on Sotapanna and Jhanas

The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: “Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!” This was the last word of the Tathagata

In my opinion. The block who support that jhana is at least necessary for enlightenmen is getting wider accepted and the dominant mainstream.

If you figure this out through a dryer awakening, isn't jhana inevitable? Isn't jhana what arises as you reduce thought festering? It feels like they're symbiotic and a dry awakening could only mean that you aren't intentionally meditating for jhana, but that surely you experience it as you calm the mind.

I'm no English speaker, so execuse my English. First of all for enlightenment, should mean awaken. awaken from "Ignorance" so to know the first eight fold path "right view" is to learn, for the seventh right mindfulness is to make it practical. So, yes to be enlighten 7th is good enough. But to achieve Nirvana you have to be able to sustain your mind in that state, that how Smadhi comes in. With Smadhi "Right" Concentration, your mind state will not just know but stable sustain calm brighten widthen. The buddha is awaken because of that he had has Samadhi at all time, all mind, all though, all breath, not just when Sit, Stand, or walk. Yes, Samadhi is a thing before Buddhism, but Right Comcentration is only buddhism. That has the eight fold path. With ought right view, there will be no right though, right speach, right action, ... to right mindfullness and right concentration. hope I made it clear

If one group says you need absorption and the other group says you don't, it dosent matter because those are just concepts and neither is right.

you are missing the main point that we have to abandon the hindrances and if one does that then jhana happens

I dunno. I appreciate your work but I prefer a nice night's sleep as my meditation. :D

Hello, Just to be clear I don't want to get into an argument, but I did saw someone did ask about "scientific research" and from that video at least to me it dose not become clear if meditation is required for enlightenment(from what I understand meditation and Jhana are not the same?!). I will try to avoid using these therms Jhana, samadhi etc. there are many translations and views on what they mean. I will try to stick to science, what can be investigated, proven, reproduced and measured, I believe true Buddhism do stick to these principles too(and yes your meditation skill and the stability of your attention can be measured). From Scientific point of view meditation is an attention training, the important aspect of meditation is not the object which you point your attention to, but the attention itself how stable and intense it is. So from scientific point of view there is only two types of meditation, all practices including Jhana, samadhi etc. can be put into one of those two categories. Type 1. Meditation with an object almost 99% of all meditation practices fall into that category - some of those practices are way older then Buddhism and are used in other tradition, prayer, chanting etc. all fall into that category. When you master this type of meditation you can connect with an object in a trance like state your attention is very stable and intense, it allows you to have great insides and deep understanding related to the object(intimacy with the object) That's the basic type of meditation you cannot do the second type without mastering this one at least at some basic level. Type 2. Meditation without an object - Zazen in Zen, sitting meditation in some other tradition including some Yoga traditions, it has many names. You just sit there whatever appears you have to get back to just sitting. - At least according to some Zen schools that's the practice used by Buddha himself to enlighten and that's the main practice in those schools ofc. very few traditions have that one, Buddhism is the biggest and the best developed.(intimacy with all objects) From scientific point of view you achieve enlightenment(your brain starts to work differently) when you master your attention! Love, kindness, joy etc. are mandatory to stabilize your attention(that's just how your brain works) also around 10 000h of intense deliberate practice ofc. you need to master the attention, to be able to put it on an object and it would stay there, intense and vivid for hours pleasant and effortless. That can be measured with EEG for example, your brain literally work on different frequency and different regions are activated, not so active in the ordinary non enlighten brain. Recommended literature: Overview: www.rickhanson.net/books/buddhas-brain/ Studies: Zen and the Brain: Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness by James H. Austin MD (Author) They are many more studies ofc. Dhammapada Verse 282: "Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase." www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=282

Thanks. But it’s pronounced ‘Gyana’. G as in goal.

Hey Doug Smith, who are you to say since you have not attained any of the jhanas yourself?

This may sound creepy but many buddhist believe that jhana mastery by an immoral person will give them another tool to act immoral . I am on the fence with this. Samadhi or jhana can lead to abilities that are unnatural.

You know what the problem is? Everyone is obsessed with the visuddhimagga. Brahmavihara practice results in jhana, anapanasati results in jhana, satipatthana results in jhana, vipassana as taught by goenka, sayadaw etc. all result in jhana. Everything is jhana! The problem here is not that other methods don't require jhana, it's that the jhanas go unnoticed when we compare them to the excessively loftly descriptions found in the visuddhimagga! Throw that thing out!!! The only texts you need to develop jhana are MN 118, MN 119, and DN22. And sure, there are different methods for enlightenment in the canon, but the fact of the matter is that they all involve jhana. If you want to use the brahmaviharas like in MN 52, go ahead, you're still practicing jhana. If you want to use the formless attainments like MN 121 and elsewhere, guess what? You're still practicing jhana. You want to get there by meditating on impermanence or death? Guess what? That's still jhana! If you are using right effort to push the mind towards wholesome states, you are doing jhana, and there are a whole bunch of objects listed in the canon to use for that purpose. You want to observe and note? Guess what! That's still jhana via practice of satipatthana!

Meditation to attain enlightenment makes about as much sense as polishing bricks to make a mirror.

Uh No. The 4th Jhana has all. The 4th Jhana has 1 2 and3 Jhana in it. The 4th Jhana has 4 noble truth and 8 fold path, and also Budha's whole Dharma such as Pranawisdom in it. The 4th Jhana itself is Nirvana which is Nondual which is enlightenment. So that simile says from top to bottom of your body all each and everything is just the pure White cloth, which is Tathagatha I. Your body is your Tathagatha body, not ristricted to your seperated physical body. The 4th Jhana is so suddenIy naturally come, so not come true by any gradual meditaing practicion. So 5 faculty and power resources must be ready full. Believe your Dharmabody Self.

its Dhamma not dharma