Forget the Gestapo... The real question is what you say when grandma asks you if you liked her potato salad.

“Otherwise we despair of the real prospect of a life of sanctity”…that did it for me right there! Thank Fr.Gregory.

What great timing and insight! I had done this recently where “I lied to bring about good”. Nonetheless, I consulted the Catechism and made my confession. May God bless you and keep you.

If killing in self defense is not sinful, then lying in self defense being sinful seems rather inconsistent. So you can shoot the gestapo in the face but you can't lie to them, apparently.

As always, a courageous and cogent summary of a multifaceted question. Thanks, Fr. Gregory!

Once again, awesome insight and explanation. Thank you!!!🙏

I agree with Fr. Gregory, beautiful words. Thank you very much.

BOOM! So good! thank you! Pre-ordering your book for sure!

It seems did touch on the issue of mental reservation(whether wide or strict). Some people undoubtedly have no right to know certain truths and while it is impermissible to lie we can use at least wide mental reservation in those situations. Wide mental reservation is not a lie but a way of wisely concealing knowledge to those who have no right to that knowledge. There is also strict mental reservation which is a lie which conceals from those who have a right to know. There is more that can be added here.

My greatest delight in these videos is Father endlessly shilling all of the good work that he does. Keep it up!

Great talk!

Thank you for your sincere words. We need honest priests. God bless you.

Great, succinct thoughts! Loved this. It is jaw-dropping to me that if we deny Jesus to men, that some Christians say Jesus will not deny them to His Father. He actually explicitly said He would deny them. We simply cannot prioritize our physical life and comforts over our faith in Christ. “You don’t have to be faithful if life gets really, really hard” says the world. “I have overcome the world” says our Lord, Jesus, God Incarnate. Who should we strive to listen to and follow?

I have always found it interesting how different christians talk about people like Jacob, Tamar, Rahab (obvious parallel with your example), and even David (for my argument I’m talking about his feigned madness). In the first two most people see their actions as wrong and a small minority seem to think that there’s an exception to be made because they were still used of God in their deceit. With Rahab I have found probably half who recognize that regardless of her virtuous intentions it’s nonetheless a sin. In war, it seems, there is some allowance, through the example of Gideon, for forms of deception. Also the two spies sent to Jericho were spies sent by Joshua (with the assumed approval of God since He commanded Moses to send 12 spies earlier) and ostensibly had to act in a deceptive manner in order to get inside of a city with such thick walls. So we aren’t told that marching in a wide open plain in bright colors is the only way to honorably fight. At the same time shouldn’t David when he fled to Gath have trusted God because He promised to make him king and not faked madness? And now we come to the modern age where things seem to be even more complicated.

God bless you! You are a great witness to the faith!

Beautiful truth

I’m confused. If I had people intending to harm, asking me if I had someone housed in my home and I lie and say no, that’s not a good thing?

I enjoyed and benefited from the simplicity of the explanation. Thank you.

I believe there is as much difference between a malicious lie and an officious lie as between killing and murder. Malicious lie is like murder, which can never be justified and officious lie is like killing, which is justified in cases like Just War. And I think it's not for nothing that the 8th commandment is worded like "shall not BEAR FALSE WITNESS against your neighbor", rather than "shall NOT LIE"... Only malicious lie can qualify as BEARING FALSE WITNESS AGAINST our NEIGHBOR.

What’s the distinction between lying and deception? My question involves more trivial examples: sarcastic expressions, Santa Claus, story-telling, etc. While in general story-telling doesn’t involve deception, in some cases a certain amount of deception may be intended. Ghost stories around a campfire, for example, depend on a certain amount of deception to draw the audience in. Or if your wife asks if you like her new hairstyle, or the birthday present she bought you. Or when my daughter sends me a link to a KZfaq video she thinks is funny but I think is inane. I’ll pretend to laugh so I don’t hurt her feelings. What about deception through selective truth-telling? Even if you don’t outright lie with words, to the Nazis at your door, your intent is to convince them through other means there are no Jews in your basement.

In the biblical story of King Solomon and the two mothers, did King Solomon lie to be able to know who the real mother was? If so, does that justify lying as a means to a good end?

Thank you Fr. Pine for the thoughtful explanation, how would you explain a lie of omission? Is that permissible in the same scenario?

I found the original debate interesting and respect the diversity of opinion on this -- to a point. For example, I think the most interesting counterpoints of the debate were that we might interpret Jesus as having told a lie (though that's debatable), and the question of: 'If killing to defend others is morally permissible, why not lying to defend others?' But I'm concerned about how far people seem to slip when they begin to rationalize lying; for example, stretching permissibility to defend apostasy and various lies of convenience. I've been disheartened by hearing even a consecrated religious person describe how she regularly tells lies to achieve what she considers good ends. It honestly undermines trust, and beyond that I think we lose out on so many unforeseen fruits that God would intend to give us if we only stopped trying to 'control' things, and just conducted ourselves with honesty. It doesn't mean blabbering everything all the time to the wrong people in the wrong way... but I still come down myself on the side of not telling lies. So though I think it's the less popular position, I'm glad you continued to defend the position that lying is always sinful. It takes courage and creativity (and trust in God's providence) to persevere in conducting ourselves by virtue, rather than compromising with vice in the vain attempt to 'control' the world and 'force' a good end. God will make all things right, in the end. We need to trust Him. PS I also agree with you that jokes (and stageplays, etc) aren't 'lies' in the real sense! Insofar as a good joke contains a 'lie' (a deceptive setup to the punchline), it is only because the punchline is coming and the speaker want to delight you by the reveal. A joke is an illustration of incongruity: the truth is always meant to be known by the hearer of the joke; the joke is a single speech act that isn't complete until after the punchline, and the punchline clarifies the truth. So when that gets suggested as problematizing the 'don't lie' position, I just don't see it fitting.

I don’t know if someone answers this for Fr Pine but James references Rahab from Joshua who aided the spies by what seems like lying and she is credited as a good example. If like a commentary on that

How about the angel Raphael's lie in Tobit?

9:53 … Newman says it be better for the world to be annihilated than that one soul should commit one VENIAL sin. He doesn’t say mortal sin. This strengthens Fr’s argument. Important distinction I thought

Most lies a mortally sinful but only a few are venial. The latter will depend on the circumstances surrounding the act

Mm tough topic. But the church teaches that if one do something against his conscience commits a sin. In the scenario to lie to save the innocent life, in the mind of the common person the right thing to do is to do so..and If he doesn't do that going against his conscience he will commit mortal sin. (See Moral theology for seglars from P. Antonio Royo Marin, Op) pages 132-136

Hi. Been thinking about this subject. I have a child who is bisexual. He was beating himself up about it for awhile. Went to therapy and is more accepting. He knows how I feel about it I don’t want to add to his anxiety by explaining anymore how I feel. What does a mother do besides prayer etc

What about Rahab the harlot? It was considered good of her to lie to save the Jews. Christ is even of her lineage. God saved her & her family because she lied.

How about this for the Gestapo thought: The Gestapo defined their targets as 'less-than-human". If you respond in affirmative you are participating in their socially-accepted lie. You briefly mentioned another slightly analogous situation in which there is a socially accepted lie; that of same-sex marriage. If two men stand before you to bless their union; society says they are married; the civil authorities say they are married; they are standing in front of you, though, Father Pine. Are these two men married to each other? Can any answer you give not be a lie?

As St. Augustine would put it, lying to the Nazis is sinning, albeit venial, and therefore compromises your eternal life for the temporal life of another.

If you were to deceive a N azi looking for Jews by misleading but true statements would that still be a problem.? For example saying that you would turn Jews away if they came to your door. Which would be true as your cellar is already full to capacity but could be interpreted differently by the N azi.

What about lying in a game?

Confronting wicked nazis with truth leads me to know that Earthly evil is a grain of sand compared to God’s goodness. Of course, we don’t know how we would respond to evil at that moment , but God’s goodness is still infinite compared to earthly evil.

In the catechism of the Catholic Church it says we have a responsibility to protect our lives as well as others through self defense, even if the blow is lethal. CCC 2263;2265). So, it only makes sense, if we can morally kill another through self defense, we can also morally protect another from death through a lie. What’s worse, killing somebody with a 12 gauge, or protecting someone through a lie? Everyone gets to go home to live another day.

"One cannot sin to save a life"

You should directly confront someone you're accusing of lies.

Re: lying to the Nazis. Are you aware of the ten Boom family? The movie The Hiding Place was based on them. They were a Dutch extended family that hid Jews during the occupation. Corrie ten Boom recounts w/o making a judgement that her father lied to the Nazis when they asked. They were eventually betrayed, arrested, & all of the family died the camps except her. However her aunt’s family refused to lie. They were arrested. On the same night the Resistance broke into the jail where they were held, they were smuggled into England & never spent one night in jail. Corrie basically said to draw your own conclusions. Amazing story of her life, many miracles occurred including her release before she was shipped to be exterminated.

Might this thought be based? I totally love this Father. Pray for me.

Saint Maximilian Kolbe pray for us!

My most frequent time to lie is when people demand I express an opinion on a topic I neither know nor care about, and I often don’t even realize it’s happening until later. I pick an opinion and think it’s my real opinion until I realize “oh, I don’t actually care about this topic at all either way!” Usually I notice when the people I thought I agreed with start working themselves into more and more extreme positions that I just look at and finally go Hmmm, satan got me again

One hypothetical always leads me to a more serious one. What if,in said case one is harboring “Jews” and is fully prepared to defend them. And your response to those searching for them is the truth. Yes. They are here, but if you mean to do them harm I will not allow such a thing to happen. The next question is, is it a sin to use violence to defend those in your care? Again just a hypothetical. I know that St. Thomas talks about self defense and defense of others.

A Lie: To say what you think to be false, so as to deceive another person. A Joke: To say what you think to be false, so as to deceive another person. Thomists: BUT A JOKE ISN'T A LIE!!!

As much as I love Fr. Pine, I’m afraid this is argument is deceptively (see what I did there? :) ) unclear. What is "lying"? Initially Fr. Pine seems to have in mind any sort of deliberate deception, whether word or deed, on the grounds that it offends justice. For example: *"When we talk about truthfulness we’re talking about something that is due to another human being. … They’re the types of things without which society cannot flourish. … If everyone were to lie to each other society would crumble."* *"Truth ensures that our externals, namely words and deeds, are duly ordered in relation to something as a sign to a thing signified."* *" …the signs which we project, the signs which we communicate actually correspond to what’s interior."* *"This is what our mouths and this is what our bodies are for. For communicating the truth."* *"Lying is a vice, contrary to the truth, and therefore sinful."* And so forth. But nothing in the above would seem to limit itself to speech acts. But then: *"So what is a lie? It’s when you **_say_** what you think to be false so as to deceive another person."* *"It’s against the natural orientation of speech acts."* Suddenly, Fr. Pine seems to restrict himself to deceptive speech acts alone in view, and his grounds are that such acts are contrary to the natural ordering of speech toward communication. He seems to be conflating two very different arguments. From this point his discussion moves on to malicious vs. jocose vs. officious lies. Yet it’s hard to see how this distinction would limit itself to speech acts alone, but would not extend to all forms of deliberate deception.

Perhaps it can be thought of in this way; if a government is acting justly then I owe it the truth, but if they want me to help facilitate an atrocity then I don't. I owe the Gestapo the truth like I owe tax to Nazi Germany. Give to Hitler what is Hitler's, give to God what is God's.

I love Fr. Pine and Saint Thomas Aquinas, but I have a hard time swallowing the idea that the Nazi deserves to hear the truth about the Jews in the basement. That's not exactly the same thing as doing evil so that good may result - it's more like denying the truth to someone who doesn't deserve it. I also don't feel satisfied with work-arounds like deception by mental reservation just so long as we don't say words that don't match reality. I'm not saying I reject the strict view argued for here, but it certainly isn't easy to accept. God bless Fr. Pine for explaining it clearly, at least.

I wonder if the Nazi at the door is lawfully entitled to the truth in this case. Is someone intent on committing evil entitled to truth that would aid them in committing that evil? Theft is wrong when somebody is lawfully entitled to the property. But is it theft to take something that somebody possesses unlawfully? And by "lawfully" I mean natural law or God's law, not human law (which can of course be false and even evil).

Gestapo knocking on the doors to enforce consequentialism.

test! my comments seem to be getting deleted.

If you know that not lying is very likely to lead to the deaths of the Jews in the basement, then not lying makes you an accomplice in murder. The choice then is between two sins: lying and murder. Given that lying in that circumstance would be a venial sin and that being an accessory to murder would obviously be a mortal sin, it is preferrable to lie. Not because we'd be doing evil that good may come. But because we'd be doing evil that a inconceivably worse and more tragic evil may not come.

Is every position of Thomas infallible ? But St. Augustine was against the concept of immaculate conception and believed that original sin is transmitted through sexual intercourse. So I guess also his and s. Thomas' position on truth-telling should not be taken as a deposit of faith. Of course, Father Pine is right that probably if the German Nazis were standing on our doorstep then our answer to the question "are there Jews in the basement" would no longer matter. But it would be a different matter if, for example, a baker in an occupied country was asked by the Gestapo whether he had noticed that a family had been buying more bread lately (which might indicate that he was hiding someone, such as Jews, or someone else whom the Gestapo was pursuing).

Did you know that God's Word is loaded with scriptures against lying? Her are just a couple: Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, But those who deal faithfully are His delight. Proverbs 12:22 A trustworthy witness will not lie, But a false witness utters lies. Proverbs 14:5

Dr. Janet's point is that you are not obligated do give someone an information they don't have a right to. An Instruction from the Holy Penitentiary says that a priest can lie about hearing something in Confession to maintain the seal with no problem to his conscience because he doesn't hear it as a man but as God. As for the Apostasy exemple I guess if Dr. Janet thinked a while longer she would get a more coherent answer: You cannot lie about your faith in Jesus because to witness to Him is an information that everyone has a right. You just can't deny your faith because Salvation is public and Christ wants to be known by all. It is always an information people have a right to... Know in Whom we put our hope. A nazi doesn't have a right to know about Jews. Nobody has a right to know what was said in Confession. One could get in a situation that if you don't lie, or if you simply remain silent you are in effect breaking the seal. But everyone has a right to know Jesus.

Ok why is no one talking about and has no answer to Rahab the harlot being praised by God for lying about hiding the Jews? Someone please explain this contradiction to me.

ONLY SUPPOSED CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS WOULD HAVE TO RAISE THIS QUESTION AS WRONG DOCTRINES ARE TO BLAME CREATING A NEED? FOR DEPENDANCE.

According to what Father says, it would be better if you said: yes Jews are in the basement and they would be killed than If you said No (under death penalty) and saved other people with no gain for you except that you know you acted honorable. Please explain why does then God use evil people for his plans or even for helping the ones that try to walk His ways? It’s that using evil to bring out good?

Not True! It’s actually: Don’t bear false witness against the innocent!

Exodus 1:15-21 would seem to closely parallel the nazi example, and in that case God blesses the midwives who lied. Seems like Thomas’ approach is wrong

It always gets me when he mistakens this with Godsplaining

I think Father is mixing evil with sin! Those are not the same! You can’t say a man lying to a German to save Jews is doing evil act and therefore can’t be used for good! We give our sins to God and he takes them to Calvary because we can’t lift them on our own. If you sin out of being limited although your intention seemed good you shall take it to Him, you can’t bear it alone! Evil on the other hand is celebrating horror, evil is when you tell people: “Arbeit macht frei” when you know the way to freedom is through chimney. Evil is when you force people to work to earn freedom and tell them to carry bags with wet salt forth and back purposelessly. Evil is when you say you need 75 years to release trial data of an experimental drug and you say you have no people to do it in a shorter time when you employ 75 000 people around the globe! Evil is demonic it often uses terrible jokes to mock God and dehumanize people. Sin does however open your soul to the demonic therefore never should be taken lightly!

It is not immoral to lie to evildoers who wish harm to you or your family.

How many Dominicans went in the realms of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I dressed as laymen to minister to the faithful? The clothing is a lie. Necessary and not a sin. May you never be in a situation where you have to hand over someone to evil people instead of withholding the truth from someone who has absolutely no right to the information. Aquinas is not infallible, great as he is. This one he got wrong.

Let's say Aquinas was right (for the sake of argument 😳). He would be the first person to recognize that the "liar" hiding the Jew from the gestapo was acting with "an erroneous conscience" and would be required under pain of mortal sin to follow that conscientious choice to deceive the goon who wants to kill the Jew. No sin incurred. How many other of the pieces of this puzzle are you NOT able apply? God help us.