I took Hebrew from Stephen Ricks at BYU. He taught us that the cumrah used to describe Melchizedek meant high priest and was likely the root word for the name of the Hill Cumorah. Thus describing the hill as a temple setting of the high priesthood.

More and more I like lay scholars who are free from the academic constraints of peer review. Let lay persons peer review lay scholars.

Bring David Butler back! Thank you for an instructive discussion of subjects that are of such great interest and relevance.

So grateful for men like the both of you, who bring us further knowledge.

43:27... Of course the Book of Mormon is obsessed with the Tree of Life. Every time I hear about the Tree of Life, my thoughts immediately refer to the glorious, living Family Tree and eternal celestial unity and righteousness for all of Godkind. Thanks Greg and Dave for this very edifying chat. Good stuff!!

I just finished listening to Dave on the Stick of Joseph! I’m ordering his book. His interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount is amazing and is so helpful for our understanding of the Temple.

I love what he says about Nephi telling his brothers that the water was the bitter depths of hell, instead of the Love of God... because from where they were standing, that's what it would have appeared to them to be. The more correct explanation would have made no sense to them. I think that so much of what is explained to us as truth (to quote Obi-Wan), depends greatly on our own point of view. I will often apply the qualifier "as far as we're concerned" when trying to explain doctrine. So many doctrinal paradoxes can be explained that way. I could listen to you two go back and forth all day long. Please do another interview with Brother Butler. Also, I'm going to go buy his book. :)

Very interesting discussion. I really enjoyed it and appreciate a discussion that doesn’t worry so much about the perceptions of others but focuses more on finding nuggets of truth. Thank you for putting it out there. Like you-I find the BOM terribly relevant to the political climate of today, especially recently. They’ve always said its lessons were for us today. I just didn’t know how similar and even identical it is.

I'm so grateful you had him on here, Greg!! I came to the exact same conclusion that he did many years ago while in the MTC. I was studying chapter 11 in 1 Nephi and the Spirit revealed all of this to me. I couldn't write it all down fast enough to keep up with the personal revelation i was receiving and becoming overwhelmed by all of it and would've kept receiving more had i not actually, and regretfully, asked God to slow it down a bit because i couldn't keep up lol. This was amazing. PLEASE have him back on very soon!!

Such a wonderful discussion. I love listing to people discussing the gospel and learning from them. I really enjoyed the episode and cannot wait to hear from David again. I learned so much and am grateful for that. Thank you Greg another wonderful episode.

After watching this I realize how much I don't know. Thank you for another great lesson?

This is so far over my head I'm drowning. 😮 I will be listening to it at least to it again but I am loving it because it is forcing me to stretch and stretch. Dave speaks so fast I don't catch all the words. That's why listening again. Thank you and hugs Greg, for sharing your knowledge and bringing on interesting guests. I love going through the comments and reading others remarks sharing as well.

Loved it absolutely loved it. It's opening the scriptures up to me in a whole new light. So very helpful. The scriptures continue to blow me away how multi layered they really are. I'm hoping for another 3hr episode. This is the meat and content I'm craving to find online.

I love that we are FINALLY asking the important questions! Thank you both!

@cwicshow Have modern day prophets received the command of Isaiah? Have they been told to speak in such a way that some can understand and others cannot? Some hear reinforcement of the basic doctrine of the family continuously and some cannot hear it? Is that why they have told us it is now impossible to survive spiritually without personal revelation from the holy ghost? I find myself wanting the brethren to speak boldly and clearly to the people. I want them to tell our people not to transition their children. I want them to tell us that promoting any sexual sin through symbols and flags is an abomination. But maybe.... they cannot? Maybe God wants to allow the tares to grow powerful like in the days of Hezekiah? And he wants us to rely on hints and parables?

“Dijon” yes please Brother Buttler’s thoughts are off the hook. His books are well worth the cost of admission. Great stuff fantastic show

Today in Sunday School there were way too many people trying to defend Laman and Lemuel and saying Nephi probably wasn't that great. Saying he only seemed great because he was doing his own PR in the small plates. I knew this day was coming. It feels like the church is trying to fend off localized apostasy.

Dave is awesome. I started his first book just reading the first 10 pages it made me go do about 2-3 hours of looking things up.

Yesss!!! I can’t tell you how excited I am for this from the two of you!👏🏼

Awesome podcast. The tree of life to me seems to show the way to spiritual birth. The Jews seemed to think Jehovah would come to save them at that time from their physical trials when they took the tree out of the temple they stopped learning about eternal principles and focused on worldly saviors. The tree is the key to our spiritual awareness and connection to Heavenly Father and that is the only way to remove our sins that separate us from Him and our blessings from Him.

Great interview. You asked the terrible question. What has happened that we have never received the promised sealed part of the Book of Mormon, something like that. I congratulate you for asking that and even being seemingly very concerned why we have not received. It is obvious that something is very wrong yet for all our studying and learning we have not received over almost 200 years. Thanks for making all of us think. This interview was excellent as it makes you think. I may not agree but he was sincere and well studied.

I'm reading Brother Butler's book now and ordered Dr. Barker's Older Old Testament volume.

This is inspiring! I'm not sure how you two came to these results, but it sure motivates me to study the scriptures more. When President Nelson said we could receive revelation, he didn't say anything about having a degree in order to receive it. I think your statement is true when you said you got your confirmation about what you had learned when you and Dave realized you both came up with the same ideas. Thanks to you both❤️

It gives new meaning to the statement that every jot and tittle shall be fulfilled.

I think that's another reason we're told constantly to attend the temple. Yes we do work for others beyond the veil, but it's also to learn more each time we attend. Things come together for us, we're more open for knowledge, understanding of the scriptures and personal revelation. I feel we need to do that in order to receive the unsealed portion.

Seems like most Celestial rooms have a giant floral arrangement in the center of the room, underneath a chandelier. just realized that it might be there to represent something. An aha moment for me.

This guy understands so much more than the average LDS. I would suggest also looking at the redemption of Zion parable in D&C 101. It tells us about the tower (pillar) not being built nut instead t h e watchmen take the money' to the exchangers ( stocks) . Somerhing we need to take to the Lord to have Him teach us. Thanks for having him on!

Excellent work Greg. I’ve read both of Dave’s books. Another great book to add to your temple knowledge is LeGrand Baker and Stephen Ricks seminal work, “Who Shall Ascend into the Hill of the Lord”.

Fantastic guest and discussion….

Just finished watching this show and had a cry. The spirit touched me strongly. One thing that that always concerned me about Christ depicted as a serpent and satan appearing to Eve as a serpent. It is now so obvious that satan is the great imitator. Always has to get his oar in the water first. I will look at the scriptures in a new way putting 'Temple' into what I read. Excellent show. Thanks Greg and David.

I believe we don’t have enough faith in Christ to receive more scriptures! Everything points to the Temple…. Jesus Christ.

Please have have him back, that was a great discussion 😊.

Fascinating discussion. Crazy to think that the Brass Serpent (Son) was taken out of the Temple during Hezekiah, and that Ashera (Mother) was taken out of the Temple during Josiah's time... and that Josiah also may have gone after, and taken out Melchizedek Priests? All in order to reform the religion according to their own understanding. Talk about breaking the everlasting covenant and changing the ordinances (Isaiah 24:5)

Great show guys !

This is exciting and is what I been waiting for!!❤❤thanks

GREAT stuff, gents.

Excellent commentary. More like this please

Awesome discussion!

Interesting perspectives. However, I find it troubling to consider Mary as representing the tree of life, and that people would “fall down” before her (even if she is holding Jesus.) We were not redeemed by a “divine feminine”before whose “feet we humbly bow,” as the hymn says. In April 2023 Elder Bednar said, “And as the word is nourished by faith, it can become a tree springing up in us unto everlasting life. What was the symbolism of the tree in Lehi’s vision? The tree can be considered as a representation of Jesus Christ.” (Also see his footnote 18.) I prefer what Elder Bednar taught as to what the tree “can” mean: it “can be considered as a representation of Jesus Christ;” and that nourishing our faith in Him can “become a tree springing up in us unto everlasting life.”

This is so good

Really loved this.❤

Amazing information! Thank you both for all your time and effort to delve deeper into the meanings of the scriptures! I am awed by your wisdom and knowledge, and so very grateful that you would share it with me and others. It thrills me, probably an effect of the spirit, to learn deeper ideas of the Heavenly Mother, the Temple and especially about our Savior, Jesus Christ! I feel that my heart and mind are ready to find the deeper mysteries of God, so Thank you for helping in my quest!

What a fantastic guest! Thanks to you both!

Thank you for this. Great insight - both of you

So freaking good!!!!!

This is facinating stuff! I would love to know where to find additional resources by David and those referenced in your discussion. Looking forward to part 2!

Awesome episode

I loved this!!

Wow thank you for thus. I have always had trouble understanding the bibke and most members i know are the same so this for me was so eye opening. So much kniwledge. Thank you so much for this video.

Great nuanced discussion.

That seems to be a big part of Isaiah and Nephi and Lehi's invitation...the invitation of the Book of Mormon...that we all be prophets in secret and that we accept Heavenly Father and the Savior's governance of The Kingdom as They will but we keep our focus on the invitation to participate with The Tree of Life...and allow for the visions of life to build line upon line precept upon precept.

So much more can be said about everything! I’ve learned many of these types of things years ago and no one seems to see it. At times I came to the conclusion that’s it’s just for me to see. It’s kind of frustrating. To much for Sunday school. Every story is told to reveal some aspect of the plan of salvation. 1000 thanks for making me feel that I’m not alone. Keep them coming so I don’t feel I’m loosing my mind!😊

Well done Greg. If I were LDS, this would be useful.

I find it interesting that Josiah et al. were obsessed with worshiping only in Jerusalem, but the very first thing Lehi did after leaving Jerusalem was to build an altar.

Beautiful

I'm sure David is well meaning but he knows just enough to get things colossally wrong.

You both helped me find an additional scripture about us becoming light. See Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Once we become light we are to bring others to righteousness or light. The gathering of Israel related to missionary work, testifying of truth, repentance and coming to Christ our Savior. Thanks for some interesting thoughts and discussion.

Quick correction. Alma doesnt step down from his position as head of the Church, he retains that position and steps down from his position as Cheif Judge, or head of the state

His train are members of his family - In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

The center of the menorah is called the Shamash - it is the one that lights the other six (Christ)- we are the lights that are lit by Christ - it is His light that we shine for others.

I just want to say, if we were better ministering people, we'd not be "missing" so much, and we'd be more prepared to receive more from God, like the sealed portion of the B of M.

More pls!

It seems that we are slowly accepting the doctrines that Nephi and Lehi left Jerusalem for a promised land to pursue...an understanding of Heavenly Father and Christ are not yet elevated to a point that we are ready for the next steps. I do wonder how much of the role of priestesshood is involved in that understanding.

During the conversation there was discussion about the dream and the filthy waters. I am not a Hebrew speaker but trying to look up what filthy might be one word is צאי TSOW. This also can refer to menstrual blood. See Stongs concordance. The Hebrew for son is Ben. Or beit nun. Conceptually the house continues. We are supposed to be sons and daughters of god, yes? So an unfertilized egg is washed away in menstrual blood. Now, one of the concepts associated with the nun in the word Ben is an aborted fetus. A future king or god that perhaps tasted the fruit and was ashamed. Somewhere I read that a woman’s flow is her body mourning the life that wasn’t. Something that has a logic to it. Thanks for the great content.

Wonderful Wonderful 😅😅😅❤

1:26:00 The 3 Nephi version is even called the Sermon at the Temple in Church literature.

Turning turning shall be my delight, 'till by turning, turning we come 'round right. - Simple Gifts, Shaker hymn (it's about repentance, not dancing, btw) by turning, turning we 'shant be ashamed....

1:12:50 but let’s be real here, who gives life? Women. So the mother who gives life to our spirits and the mother who gives life to the savior of the world who would give eternal life to all men… I mean it tracks for me.

It is amazing that Greg came to mostly similar understandings of the scriptures as Dave without the incredibly complex highly scholarly study that Dave has done? I wrote a not yet published book, Return to the Garden of Eden, God ,Will Make us Immortal " that has a chapter about angels and their relationship with man. I would love to hear Dave's insight on Seraphim, because they are the problematic being in my explanation of who angels are, . , the wings, etc.. A comment Dave made. Paul is a jerk in his treatment of those going to have others circumcised. Paul was in absolute war with the Jewish Christians who taught parts or all of the law of Moses was necessary to be saved. He understood better than most that circumcision, kosher diet, etc. do not require a person to change from their spirit to be saved, delivered , from sin. Paul knew better than most that not killing someone does not save you, because you still have hate, jealousy , envy, back biting, etc. However, to love all people does deliver you from sin. Paul knew better than most that not committing adultery does not deliver, save , anyone from sin, because you still lust; lust to fornicate, lust to commit adultery, lust after sports, hunting, work, in other words, lust after other gods. The sermon on the mount recorded in the Book of Mormon is more perfect that the sermon on the mount recorded in the Bible, because Christ makes it clear in the Book of Mormon that every jot and tittle of the law of Moses is fulfilled in Him, and has an end. When you understand Paul you know the sermon on the mount recorded in the Book of Mormon is by no one else but Jesus Christ. That is why Paul was so upset that they didn't get it. To send a message that circumcision is somehow necessary for salvation, whether intentionally, or unintentionally, was the wrong message to send. Just as stepping away from the Gentile converts table under pier pressure, because they ate nonkosher food. I would love to write a book, Understanding Paul. On the fruit of the Tree of Life being Christ or His mother. Does Christ have the love that He has osmosis of the cosmos?, or does He have the love He has osmosis from both His heavenly Father and heavenly mother? I was hoping you would bring up the passage in the Book of Mormon that says His mother after the manner of flesh, showing Christ has a mother after the manner of His spirit. You know how you try and imagine the thought process of a person who is above average, like Elon Musk, for example. Dave's reading of any scriptures, or any literature at all, must be a linguistic tornado in comparison to the median and above median person.

Thanks!

yes very outstanding , very much a sprit of what is important about being familiar with Bofm and temples as i understand ignorance is no salvation from the law

Also have to wonder if the great and abominable church for Nephi was the Deuteronomists...I definitely believe it is any organization that fights against the Apostles of the Lamb of God...but one of those organizations seemed to be the scholars and scribes of Nephi's time...I wonder where else we see that manifest.

I really liked the way he explained these B of M scriptures

I just watched Moana and noticed that she was eager to fulfill her role of restoring the heart of tafiti...but wasn't able to proceed until she had the necessary resources...i see us in that pattern...we are eager and desirous and learning...but what lack we yet...

Love the pic of the tree of life....how can I get this

Both

I say both

Dave Butler is amazing! Please have him again!

Don’t the scriptures state explicitly that the tree represents Mary? And the fruit represent Jesus. There’s a very clear parallel in how both the tree and Mary is described.

Was the land bountiful near adam ondi aman....

To me it seems like the reason the church is under condemnation in regards to the Book of Mormon and the D&C is more a matter of unbelief than esoteric knowledge of the details. We believe IN the book, but we don't believe it. When Nephi says "if you repent and are diligent in seeking the Lord will teach you directly" we say - "that's may be true for you Nephi, but Laman and Lemuel had it right. The Lord doesn't talk to me that directly". There are many other principles in the BOM and D&C that it seems to me we treat with unbelief. Supposedly we will get more when we shed the unbelief and not only say but do as the scripture suggest (i.e., when by our faith we replicate the experiences of the prophets)

The LDS want to talk about the tree of life , iron rods, covenant paths, temples , Book of Mormon geography, anything but the cross . The cross is where the gospel is. The cross is where the Christian finds Grace.

Yes dave its very hard . Even to sacrifice your soul its not good for it ..

Also interesting that when Jesus tells the pharasees and or Sadducees that they would kill the prophets also...it may have been less about the idea that they were bad and more that they were of the same belief system that lead to killing the prophets. They were contrary to the meanings of the prophesying of Isaiah

Also considering the roles of historians and scribes and Joseph Smith's reference to those who assume they have authority...they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. We can see this expressed all through the biblical history and have to wonder how often church historians succumb to it.

Why is it that we only receive visions one way? Is this the only way it’s done? If so, Why?

What is the study app you use? I have heard you mention it but I can't find the exact moment you mentioned it.

I had a thought and want to get your perspective… Acts 5:30, it states that Jesus was hanged on a tree, could that symbolically mean that Jesus died in his mother’s arms?

This sounds like what is happening to Isaiah is happening today

You mention of heavenly mother. This is a little off topic but in Alma 42:24 Alma assigns a gender to justice and mercy " For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own". I suspect that justice is administered by God the father and mercy although it comes from Christ's atonement, it is administered by Heaveny Mother. Your thoughts?

D&C 88:40

Hint Nephi did not come up with the idea to cut off Labands head . The Lord commanded him to do it . He did not want to do it . And he gives Nephi and explanation why he needs to do it and that he put him right into his hands .

So how are we to trust Isaiha if it has been altered.

Is Dave saying, "Ashira" or Asherah? Google says: "Asherah, along with Astarte and Anath, was one of the three great goddesses of the Canaanite pantheon. In Canaanite religion her primary role was that of mother goddess. Canaanites associated Asherah with sacred trees, an association also found in the Israelite tradition". However, when put in conjunction with Ashtoreth you get: "Ashtoreth, Asherah, Astarte, and Ishtar are all manifestations of the same goddess who was worshipped in different regions, where people were divided by language and geography. Ashtoreth (a Hebrew name) was the supreme female deity of the Phoenicians, associated with Baal, the supreme god." I can see the Tree of L having dual meaning: Jesus and women, however, I have a problem with comparing M in heaven with an idol who was surrounded with homosexuals, eunuchs and transgender persons (as written in the Old Testament). Good fruit can't come from an evil tree so are you saying that a good tree can have fruit that turns bad (Jacob and the allegory) and you can still use an ancient idol (Ashtoreth) that worship of, caused the destruction of the H of Israel, as a representation of a M in heaven? If Asherah/Ashtaroth initially was a representation (such as the serpent was for Christ) and then went terribly awry, then like the PRIDE use of the rainbow, we should let it go until the great "cleansing" so that it's new perception doesn't lead the ignorant down "strange roads", thus, making us think back on your episode of the rainbow and the Come Follow Me study guide. I just REALLY think that the connection between the two women is disjointed so I'm hoping you can help me understand how it is not. Hope to hear from you either here or I will see how one emails you or David because I'm not sure how to get back to this comment after others pile up on top of this one???

interesting thought - search provoking. I like D J Butler here with you better- The Stick of Joseph guys are a bit immature and too goofy. You get right to the point. Your sober discussion with Dave is just that.

I have a really big question. So if the bible had been tampered with due to the dueteronmist reforms then how come in 1 Nephi 13:25 it says "these things go forth from the jews in purity. Making it sound like the bible is still pure but then in 13:26 it says the plan and precious things are taken out although it is unclear who "they" are. Most people take it to the gentiles take it out the precious things. But then 27 says the precious things were taken out and then given to the gentiles. But verse 25 says it went forth from the jews in purity. So i am very very confused. I need help.

I like all of this representation except it feels off to me a little bit. Can anyone tell me where is Heavenly Father’s symbology in this Tree of Life? We,should have the Oneness with God the Father and His companion, our Heavenly Mother and Jesus (also having an eternal wife) being born of Mary and the Father and the Holy Spirit(does he have a divine female companion also)? If we are all to become one, then we cannot leave out Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Mary and the Father and Joseph earthly raising Jesus father. Spinning this without the whole picture isn’t complete enough for me. Where is Our Heavenly Father symbology in all this. I really like every thing, but, that feels like it is missing, unless, I misinterpreted what was being said. I do not want the culture of the Church to go woke, pushing forward the divine feminine as the leader above all in the Tree of Life, ever. I want the partnership, the yin to yang etc. can anyone clarify this for me. I am a woman, therefore, appreciate the divine attention of women in these things, but, not at the expense of the divine masculine. My Heavenly Father needs some good vibes here!

Why not the Ethiopian Bible as a much earlier look at Christian doctrine?

I loved this conversation. But isn’t it interesting that he is representative of the different Christian “sects” that’s highlighted in the conversation? 😂 Whether you’re talking about the Deuteronomists, or the people of Enoch, or Abraham’s generation, or the Jews, or the Latter-Day Saints… The point, I think, is that God works with the people and the culture he’s got. It’s the commonalities of each group of people that is most notable though… The core of all the best of these followers of Christ is that they’re people that have sought Him out specifically. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, The Brother of Jared, Joseph Smith, and many others down to President Nelson. The call isn’t just to Hear Him, but to seek his direction. That’s a very common thread in every agar of the church. I mean, what does it say about a church whose policies (well intentioned or not) seem to drift and sway from generation to generation? It’s part of a very real conversation we should be having with the Lord himself though. Because the official records of the church don’t even agree on things like the seriousness of different sins. 🤔 And this conversation skirted around that fact a few times without attacking it head on. Might make for another great conversation 😁

John the Baptist baptizes the Son, the Father speaks, the dove descends and lites onto Christ - the dove is the Holy Ghost . . . Margaret Barker says the Holy Ghost is Mother in Heaven. Father, Mother, Son - why water? A Mother gives birth and a baby is born out of water - as a mother I know about that water