Is Open Access good for the railway? YES! says Lumo & Hull Trains MD Martijn Gilbert

Рет қаралды 2,422

Күн бұрын

Lumo trains and the divisive issue of Open Access. Richard Bowker interviews MD Martijn Gilbert and things get a bit lively!
Is Open Access on the railway a good thing or a bad thing? Or perhaps a bit of both! One of the strongest advocates for Open Access on Britain’s railway is Martijn Gilbert, Managing Director of First Group’s open access operations, which includes Lumo and Hull Trains.
In this interview:
00:00 Intro
02:43 Martijn's early career and what got him interested in open access
06:01 How Hull Trains are bouncing back post pandemic and how Lumo is doing since launch
09:08 The problematic issues that Open Access raises
26:30 Martijn's views of Labour’s policy for Open Access
29:04 Lumo & Hull trains plans for the future
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Credits:
Presenters - Nigel Harris (@railnigel on X) & Richard Bowker CBE (@SRichardBowker). General Manager: Stef Foster (@stefatrail)

Пікірлер: 42

@chrisromain6820 Ай бұрын

Richard: an excellent interview with Martijn Gilbert which shows there is enthusiasm and drive in the industry. I could not help noticing that, during your introduction, you have a picture on the wall of two Edinburgh trams, which are another major interest of mine. A book of 240 high quality pictures taken in 1951 and 1955 is expected to be published by Adam Gordon soon. Chris Romain

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Chris. Yes, the picture of the Edinburgh trams was actually a gift from Nigel Harris when I was appointed Chair of the Strategic Rail Authority in 2001. I think it was an illustration from a book he had published himself on Edinburgh trams. I shall look out for Adam's book and let Nigel know. Cheers. Richard

@ricktownend9144 Ай бұрын

Very many thanks for this fascinating episode - I'll have to listen again to understand fully all the issues you raised. I've certainly greatly enlarged my brain-space aound long-distance travel; as Martijn said, bringing the 'low-cost airline' model into the mix of what rail offers is definitely a plus: arguably, a failure to do this with the channel tunnel has slowed the growth in international rail journeys to a tragic extent. I agree with you that the WCML is rather different to the ECML: perhaps a requirement to contribute to the 'new alternative high-speed route north of Birmingham' would temper the enthusiam of the open-access applicants. On the other hand, if they really are willing to chip in substantially, making it happen sooner than otherwise, that would be a definite benefit all round. And, after all, if without it there really is no capacity to grow the number of people travelling by rail on the WCML, the OA companies can only abstract existing customers!

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

You are most welcome Rick and some great points there.

@Carlos-im3hn Ай бұрын

Richard and Green Signals thank you (!) for covering this perhaps _politically sensitive_ , challenging, and yet tantilizing Open Access topic; and detailed interview. Looks like everyone involved is putting in a great effort with some good success. Very nice vista views of the OA electric trains carrying on.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

You are most welcome Carlos!

@anthonypowell5665 Ай бұрын

Should do a debate between all the parties on their plans for rail transport in the UK after 4th july

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Anthony. We'll be publishing our Election special on Thursday, looking at what the party manifestos say about transport!

@claretsarecool Ай бұрын

Love open access, Hull and Bradford would never have been served by the service levels they have today if it wasn't for open access. Yes, there is a loss of revenue to some of the other areas of the business but this is where the whole privatisation is broken, as the mainlines should always be used to subsidise the lesser-used areas of the industry, so if think the open access takes money from other areas, then you need to look at the whole securitisation of the industry, and the only fair answer is a national GB/BR style railways

@Jackson3592 Ай бұрын

I think open access works great in some scenarios but not in others. If we had a well segregated network allowing more capacity and therefore gaps in the timetable I don’t see an issue with it (aslong as the ORR and NR make them pay there way in track access from day 1!) Reality is that we have the opposite with lots of conflicting paths and no gaps in the timetable. To maximise the network we have and serve the population equally I don’t believe we can accommodate open access. We need a unified railway to make the most of what we have.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I do genuinely think it needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. I don't think we can make a sweeping generalisation that it is good or bad.

@northernblue1093 Ай бұрын

Very inspiring.

@wrangerrob Ай бұрын

Rob here, Hull had I think 3 trains a day in BR days, the Hull Pullman/Executive being the famous one (fastest Deltic to Retford n on stop I think). However they decided to remove the services. Along with Cleethorpes. I think without Hull trains, that bit of the Ridings would have no through trains. LNER I now trying to go to Cleethorpes again. As For Retford I have never understood why both Newark and Doncaster have vast markets to London, but Retford hasn't got an hourly service! Without HT it would be even worse off. The road figures for Sheffield is terrible so good on HT to grow the market. As for Glasgow, LNER have perhaps made a bad move in not serving the city. Again go Lumo. OPEN ACCESS clearly works on the ECML. As for the WCML Avanti have been appalling, so it may wake them up. Also GWR.

@mattsub1 Ай бұрын

Exactly this, BR did run some trains, then didn't; ECML is OA city - and is by far the best mainline in UK - WCML an absolute shit show - GWR is much better, but traction combinations (5 car / 10 car / 9 car) is an absolute mess and too many reliability / resilience issues. Of course it could be that the ECML is magically better place to travel and has nothing to do with options, competition and high energy that LUMO MD here shows - could be total coincidence, but one thing for sure, if there was open access on WCML Avanti would be sharpening its ideas up a lot more quickly - that is absolutely beyond doubt. Remember, rail is competing with air, road - so if monopoly national provider is a mess - the traffic is lost to other modes - that's a REAL abstraction to be worried about Richard....

@jacklythgoe3541 27 күн бұрын

I travel between Hull and London on regular basis, and Hull Trains provides a great service for this. The 1 tph service with LNER is useless for me due the times never fitting in for connections on the Yorkshire coast line and not allowing for enough time for me to finish work in London. I know that thanks to Hull Trains's service I can travel the route more frequently, hence this promotes traveller. Martijn is very right in what he says. Also, it is a valid point on LNER/LUMO, LUMO does provide a very different level of service to LNER. For myself its choice, LUMO being the cheap budget friendly option to rival airlines (which causes more loss of revenue than any open access operator), and LNER being the premium option, which on a longer journey to Edinburgh I would prefer myself.

@Adam-pk2te Ай бұрын

If you wanted to be Machiavellian about it you could use Open Access to test if certain services are viable and if they prove so (as with Hull) then when their agreement expires just have say LNER launch a copycat service

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

OK, but their viability is perhaps down to the different business model and possibly even cost base of OA operations compared to someone like LNER?

@Adam-pk2te Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals True, I may have overlooked that, but ultimately in my opinion so long as the trains are reliable and the fares are reasonable a train is a train. I'd argue though that the viability of OA services to Hull and Sunderland are down to frequency and convenience of travel rather than the fabled power of 'competition' or any minutia of business model given that if you wish to travel direct London-Hull or London-Sunderland at a convenient time you have to take HT or GC In my opinion their success is more down to the absence of the primary operator (LNER) As for LUMO they just seem to be a private copy of Ouigo (owned by SNCF)

@lassepeterson2740 Ай бұрын

Open access is supposed to foster competition which would be nice , but the problem with trains is that they are a fixed guideway system unlike most other forms of transport , which makes it difficult to be flexible enough to compete . Open access does not address the monopoly of the track owner and traffic controllers who basicaly control every aspect train movements .

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Not quite in the UK. Track Access is still granted by way of Track Access contract and if one operator feels discriminated against by Network Rail, they can appeal to the independent Regulator, the Office of Rail & Road.

@lassepeterson2740 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals Ya but it's still fixed guideway UK or not, it's physics . You can file complaints and legal action all day long . Autos , boats , airplanes and bicycles just go around the issues , far less legal action required . Plus rail traffic dispatchers / controllers are monopoly unionised .

@BecsterDotCom Ай бұрын

I’m not even going to consider that I’m clever enough to understand all of this but my thoughts are as follows: - the Open Access policy of not having to pay an access fee for the first 3-4 years of whatever is absolutely a subsidy. What else could it be described as? - Does it matter that it’s a subsidy? In my opinion no as in order to setup as a rail operator it takes massive setting up costs in purchasing the necessary rolling stock and staffing. Without the “subsidy” it would be almost impossible to bring more competition to the market. - is competition a good thing? Well in any other industry and under normal market conditions then yes as it requires companies to improve standards in order to retain customers. Customers having freedom of choice has to be a good thing right? - however this is transport and infrastructure so normal market conditions might not apply. Although I suppose the infrastructure is still Government controlled. Not sure I’ve got much faith in them after the whole HS2 fiasco. But that’s a separate rant from me! Like I say I’m not clever enough to understand the ins and outs of this but it was an interesting conversation nonetheless. Sounds like Lumo are doing a great job… reckon you could extend your reach and sort out North Wales Coast for us? Oh wait that’s a Welsh Gov problem. Lord help us all

@mattsub1 Ай бұрын

It is far from uncommon for start up businesses particularly with high capital costs to receive benefits in first 2-3 years; rates relief, training support and tax reliefs to reflect the early costs of startup - this isn't unusual. As long as those reliefs are removed over time, which I understand now , they are being

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Some great points their Bec!

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Not necessarily. OA operators who do not run through at least one station that has 15m passenger movements per annum do not pay ICC if I understand it correctly. That seems somewhat arbitrary.

@slimchris113 Ай бұрын

Open access in UK is the definition of down the middle. It works in its own lane when it doesnt interfere with major franchises too much. Wrexham shropshire best example of it going wrong. Lumo and Hull best example of being right.

@grahamallen1970 Ай бұрын

Probably dodged every question in a corporate way....but no taking it from the md they are running trains in a difficult time😊

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I can see why you might say 'dodged' a bit, but I did think he was tremendous and rather uplifting in his customer focused approach!

@grahamallen1970 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals tar for response. Keep up pod casts Now look what you have done ? Geoff Marshall is on the open access warpath explaining where they run and going to!...green signals influencing the influencers? Watch yt influencers will all be doing open access slots! Imitation greatest form of flattery...

@mattsub1 Ай бұрын

Open Access is fantastic - ECML the best line by a mile, LUMO huge success, no abstraction just growth, LNER doing great , everyone else doing great, choice, options, alternative to airlines, what's not to like? Apart from if you have ideological objection to OA which many, many do. Far bigger issues to resolve in railways than ECML which is rare beacon of success at the moment - so copy it instead of moaning about it.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks for your comments. Certainly no idealogical objection to OA whatsoever. But it is abstractive. The question is whether the growth generated for LNER directly consequent from having OA on the route is greater than the abstraction. Lumo say it is but they would. It is entirely reasonable to ask whether the taxpayer is getting a good deal by having OA on any route. The fare paying customer is not the only one funding the railway.

@mattsub1 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals yes, that's true, but the ECML is overall a rip roaring success so let's not look gift horse in mouth WHEN we've more important things to worry about just now - like the shambles that is WCML and XC to name two operators who are making a horlicks of a monopoly position

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I think we are saying much the same thing to be honest!

@Whiskey2shots Ай бұрын

Privatisation is in of itself extractive. But, open access is the king of this.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I suspect that is a slightly more political point rather than economic one!

@geoffcross6529 Ай бұрын

Its funny someone who is involved in an open access operations is not going to make comment about other open access operators is he. leaving him to just start advertising how wonderful it all is for everyone.?

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

OK, but I did think he was passionate about customer service and delivering for the communities who prior to OA operations had not been well served.

@BenRattigan Ай бұрын

Why can’t LNER just do what Grand Central, Lumo and Hull Trains do?

@mattsub1 Ай бұрын

For the same reason Avanti feel its okay to run a shit show of a service on WCML...... no alternative... except modal shift

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

It's a fair question but the answer you received previously Ben is the answer to a different one. LNER do do a great deal that is agile and impressive but they have different constraints to Hull Trains and Lumo. We HAVE to have a railway system that works for the many, not just a limited number, even though I accept that on the East Coast, OA operators have brought significant benefits to the people who use them.