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You guys are literally the British and American versions of each other 😂. It’s like watching two people from alternate universes meeting. Similar but different.

Great conversation. I especially liked the part where Drew said that the best way to plant doubt is to show the other person that you are also a compassionate human being. I liked that one a lot.

Totally agree with Drew on how powerful it is just to show someone you have different values, and yet are still a moral, compassionate person. I remember an interaction I had like that when I was still a Christian that planted a seed of doubt. I was talking with a gay guy, and I don't remember any of the arguments he made, but I remember I was so struck by how he didn't fit into the hostile anti-Christian/anti-conservative archetype I'd been made to expect. It was life-changing not because of anything he said, but because of who he was and how he respected me.

I'm french, so I have to listen it in slow-motion to understand and it's like they are high, that's very funny :') Thank you for sharing this interview, I really loved it. I also was christian and recently became atheist, and that's helpful to hear people who did the same. As a french it's hard to imagine how difficult it is to turn to atheism on the US. I'm glad to live on a secular country. Support from France

As a Christian with many atheist and agnostic friends, I love this conversation. It might sound weird, but I Watch videos from both of these guy's channels because I love hearing what other people's point of view is.

One ultimate mash up. Been waiting for you two to make a collaboration. I would definitely like to see more videos of you both making collaboration.

"The biggest seed of doubt you can possibly plant in someone's mind is to show that you can be moral as well." That's a great one to remember.

This is probably the best conversation between two atheists I’ve witnessed. A very low-stakes, contemplative, and real environment. I feel like the topics discussed were a lot more relevant and less hollow than many atheist conversations I’ve heard. The time went by so fast!

I love both of you guys, from the bottom of my heart. I don't have friends that would talk about philosophy, religion or critical thinking, watching you two evolving as people and as thinkers makes up for that lack of live conversation I have. Thank you so so much, Alex and Drew

The difference between "politics is bad" and "religion is bad" is that it is nearly impossible to run a society without politics; If it's an evil, it's a necessary evil. Whatever merits one could grant to religion, you can't claim it's evils are necessary. Societies can do without religion, not politics.

What a great combo, really enjoyed watching the two of you interact. I have to agree, my atheism has progressed, but I've moved from an initial "live and let live" to "I actively believe that normalizing having unsubstantiated beliefs is bad for society" and theism is still doing it. I've become more angry at theism (not theists!), but far more understanding and empathetic to how people arrived at the theistic beliefs they have. That doesn't mean that it's harmless to walk around with those. Consider how many people are constantly scammed because they incorrectly believed the other side was being truthful. I don't think that one can reasonably claim that theism helps people to avoid being scammed. But skepticism does.

Ancient atheist here, since studying religion 70 years ago. Fascinating to hear fresh ideas from these thoughtful, intelligent young men. Thank you, I must think more; though happily settled in my "belief" a very long time. :-) Much Spiritual nourishment from my credo: Vissi d'arte, vissi d'amore, Quindi un uomo felice ... Tops - people and music.

still convinced it’s the same person. if they’re British, then great American accent! and if American, great British accent! in all seriousness, I really enjoyed this. I have enjoyed the content over the last few years since I found both channels

I remember about 4-5 years ago, Drew posted on Reddit about his new channel and I immediately subbed. Look how far you've come!!! WOOT WOOT

You did a great job at interviewing here. The questions were well structured and the way you engaged with Drew's answers and managed to let the conversation flow was really admirable.

The "they're the same person" jokes are funny, and I understand the feeling behind it. There are strong similarities between the two of you, and all of them are great qualities. I'm glad to have such excellent representatives.

Yes, finally it happened! The collaboration I've been hoping to see one day. So great to hear two intelligent young guys reflect on their own atheism. A wonderful conversation.

I've been watching both of your channels for years. It's cool to see how much you both have grown and how your perspective has changed.

As a former Christian fundamentalist I enjoy both of your channels. Both of your approaches to an emotional subject is excellent.

Honestly, The biggest reasons both of these channels are so awesome are: 1) They welcome both theist and atheist viewers without judgement. 2) Both are very open to considering all views and actively seek to reach out, respect, and understand others' points of view before addressing them.

It's so nice to see you two together

As a Christian, I really enjoyed watching this exchange.

love seeing you guys back together again. I had just found CosmicSkeptic right before you guys first collab, and I was one of the early member's of Drew's community, and I have very much kept up with both of you over the years. Love to see how you both have grown, and my views have grown along. Also, I would love to see you two interact with Ocean Keltoi. I think that would be an amazing conversation. Peace and love guys!

Really appreciate this collaboration as I follow both Alex and Drew.

This was such an insightful and mature discussion from two of the best KZfaqrs on this subject area. It's rare I can sit through an hour long vid without being distracted away. I've certainly felt like a militant/angry atheist in the past, whose right it was to tell people why they were wrong with a pointed finger. I now realise I'm fine with people believing what they want to believe, as long as they are not harming themselves, or others, with what they believe. I'm more than happy to discuss my beliefs with others, but I tend to leave it up to them if that's something they want to engage in. I would consider myself a positive atheist, but leaving a small percentage of agnosticism in more of a deist construct of God, because we probably can never really know. And like Drew, I find the historical/societal aspect and context to religions one of the most interesting/convincing areas now, and certainly strengthens why I do not believe in any of the organised religions. If people have never checked out Mythvision podcast on KZfaq, I'd definitely recommend it as Derek has such interesting guests and topics of discussion.

Both of you have been so helpful in my deconstruction. So cool to see two titans meeting.

What a fascinating and enriching collaboration. Thanks so much Alex and Drew. I really enjoyed listening to your conversation.

I just watched this again. Thank you. Easily the most life-changing video/podcast I have ever watched

Oh yeah my fav KZfaqrs, British Drew and American Alex

The only religion humanity needs is 'Be Kind'. Compassion is found in nearly all religious traditions, including those that predate Christianity. There is nothing particularly unique about Jesus' teachings.

Great job to both of you, honest, thoughtful, and engaging conversation.

love GM. awesome that you're having him on your channel! you both are awesome.

Great collab! I'd love to see more of you two

Woah! I’ve been wanting to see you guys together!

So glad to see these content creators that Ive loved for years come together and talk about how they continue to grow and evolve. Thats a big part of why I still watch both of your videos... well, not "religiously" but you get the idea.

I really appreciate the nuance you both bring to this kind of conversation. Thanks so much for sharing your experience and knowledge and being willing to deal with whatever criticism may be hurled your way.

such great questions being asked in this podcast, nice work

I've been waiting for years for these two to do a colab. Finally!

So cool to see you two collaborating again! :)

My two favorite Athiests!! Love you guys! Congrats Drew! Glad to see you achieve such success.

As a woman who likes personal freedom, the idea of Christianity being true makes me nervous.

I've enjoyed listening to both of your channels for a couple years now since I deconverted from religion, and I can really appreciate the evolution of both of your guys' views in that time. Both of you are willing to take a look at and even give credit to religion in a way that I've seen very few other atheist youtubers doing, as well as be open when your views have changed and for what reason. Both of your content has helped me tremendously with developing my understanding of religion, as well as with having any religious conversations with my family, for which I have to thank you both.

My favourite duo om KZfaq. Appreciated this

This was amazing. Thank you for this interview.

You are both very mature thinking intellectuals and great representatives of the atheist community.

Great video, Alex! It’s been interesting observing the evolution of your thoughts over the past years. Good chatting with you at the CC event :)

What a treat. 2 of my favorite youtubers.

This was a fantastic conversation, thanks!

I appreciate that both Alex and Drew are so diplomatic in their approach to religious people, but I can't help but think that their discarding of antitheism is at least partly informed by privilege. I know that in the case of Drew in particular, religious trauma is something that he has experienced but experiencing it as a straight man in a liberal democratic society has undoubtedly made it easier for even him to see religiosity and theism as a true neutral. As a queer person who is still actively suffering from the harm resulting from others' religious practice, I find it very difficult to relinquish the idea that at least the capacity for dogmatic faith is a categorical negative. To avoid making a purely emotional argument here, I think I'd love to provide some solid reasons why there were certain things said during the conversation that just didn't sit well with me (no disrespect to Alex and Drew here, love their work). 1) I have no doubt that some beliefs predicated on faith can be a net positive in very narrow contexts. If astrology provides some people with entertainment and comfort, I have a hard time taking issue with that even if I find it silly. The problem arises when faith-based thinking can't be neatly contained to things like astrology which don't have any major negative impacts. There's a reason folks who genuinely believe in astrology are also more likely to be anti-vaxxers and think crystals have healing properties, faith-based beliefs that genuinely can and have caused harm. Faith based thinking can and does bleed into the realm of the harmful from the realm of the harmless all the time. I observe this even among highly educated, liberal Christians (and atheists for that matter) who are pro-choice and don't hate queer people. 2) It rubbed me the wrong way just a little when Drew spoke about how mental health and happiness isn't predicated on introspection or individual enlightenment and is instead more dependent on relationships with people (and not necessarily because I disagree with that statement). Two reasons: First, relationships with a community or people aren't as accessible to a lot of folks (queer people for example). Second, I feel like inherent in his statement is the assumption that the point of introspection and personal enlightenment is to enhance individual happiness. As a utilitarian, I have a very hard time justifying a frame of mind that prioritizes one's own mental health and/or lack of suffering over one's negative impact on the world. Would I have been happier being born heterosexual and staying in Christianity and the Christian community to this day? Possibly. But I would choose the life of supposed unhappiness or diminished happiness I am currently living every time over that hypothetical Christian life, precisely because emerging from faith based thinking has helped me draw conclusions that have greatly limited the harm I do in the world. I'm a trans ally, I care about the plight of the Palestinian people, I'm a vegetarian who thinks human supremacy/speciesm is unjustifiable, I'm a genuine proponent of gender equality, etc. The agonizing introspection I had to engage in to live with myself made me a better person in my estimation and I don't think I'm necessarily a bad person for thinking more religious people ought to go through that process even if it makes them less happy/healthy individually. Just as we would judge someone for not financially assisting a homeless person on the brink of starving to death by buying them a sandwich, I think it's reasonable to judge somebody who wouldn't enact the mental and emotional labor to improve the way they relate to the world around them, just because it would make them slightly better off mentally (as opposed to financially in the previous example). I'll just end by saying that I'm open to being persuaded out of my soft antitheism. Maybe theism/faith can be a situational positive in a lot of cases (if a Jain or Hindu who is no longer convinced of reincarnation starts eating meat as a result, it'd be difficult for me to say that their theism didn't have a net positive effect, although again, it's hard to draw boundaries around faith-based thinking and limit it to positive or neutral manifestations). I'll also end by saying that I'm aware that atheism isn't inherently virtuous and that atheists aren't even immune to religious thinking (most atheists I've met don't even realize that their deep belief in say, human rights, is socially constructed and requires a rather large leap of faith). I'm just saying that I think there are more religious people than one might think who remain in their theism not because they're convinced by its truth or its net positive effect on the world, but just because it does in fact make them happier and they see that as a higher priority than some higher ethical duty they might have to their fellow sentient creatures. I do think it's weird and a bit unhinged to pretend like this is exclusive to religious people (arguing for veganism within atheist circles has thoroughly disillusioned me to that way of thinking), but I am comfortable in saying that calling out that kind of dereliction of duty is a good thing and that I want to continue doing so. I would encourage Alex and Drew to continue doing so too, albeit more diplomatically than I probably could. lol. I don't think I would have this perspective if I was heterosexual. I think if I was privileged in enough ways, I'd also be tempted to take a hyper-individualist perspective on theism's negative or positive impacts (Does accepting Pascal's Wager work for you? vs. Does accepting Pascal's Wager work better for everyone?). Also, yes, I realize that utilitarian ethics and moral realism in general requires a leap of faith as well, and I'm happy to admit it. I actually really respect liberal religious folks who at least admit that their theism is epistemologically problematic just like I respect moral realists who admit the same thing about their beliefs. It's the ones who can't admit this and are therefore pretty immune to empathy and change who really scare me. UPDATE: ^Wrote this at the 35 minute mark, and having listened to the whole podcast now, I'm actually really happy with what Drew then says in the way of caveats afterwards (even if you make the leap to theism a la Pascal's Wager, don't cut yourself off from challenges and outside influences due to the risk that you hurt others with your insularity, etc.). Alex's example of meeting a Jehovah's Witness on a plane and thinking of ways to sow doubt about their harmful beliefs was illuminating. I think that's what was missing from the discussion for me, up to that point. I will say, it still makes me queasy when somebody say, accepts Pascal's Wager or otherwise comes to religion for the sake of their own mental health (things you believe out of desperation are rarely open to change and do tend to foster harmful insularity and close-mindedness). But to those who continue to to engage with others and continue to modify (or even occasionally discard) even their most sacred beliefs to prevent harm, even at the cost of some of their own happiness, I say sure. Have at it. Be an open-minded theist (rare in my experience, but not non-existent)

I love both of you guys so much and you've both been so helpful in my deconstruction journey😊 As an xjw I just wanted to weigh in on the short convo about talking to a jw on a plane around 36:00 and the best way to handle it. Drew got it exactly right, and please follow his advice🙏 Don't act overly interested or they'll think they can convert you, but don't come at them in a frontal attack bc they will completely shut down and stop listening to you. But if you are kind and friendly, interested in them as a person, sympathetic, push back gently on some of the rhetoric in a way that might make them think... That will do more than anything else. In the organization we are taught that the "world" ie: all non-jws, lies in the power of the wicked one, or Satan. And that inside our religion is the only safe place to be and jws are the only truly happy people. And that's why God commands us to preach, to bring more people into the true religion out of the wicked world so they can find true happiness. I know it sounds insane but I promise you, Jehovah's Witnesses absolutely believe all this. So if you are kind to them and show them that a "worldly" person can be happy and fulfilled, it puts a tiny chink in that "only jws are happy" shit. Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.

This really rocks guys. Great honesty, transparency and integrity.

Great video. Touched on a lot of things I've contemplated before. I expect that I'll re-watch this one a few times.

"Is religion harmful? " in my understanding it is because it fosters shame, guilt and fear in a person and controls a person's life through those emotions i'm against organized religions, but see little harm in having people believe in their own definition of a theistic God, preferably in a one which fosters kindness, acceptance, understanding and forgiveness

Your good faith is inspiring to me even now that I've been an atheist for a decade, and I wish I could have had your channel when I started doubting rather than the hostility of the atheist culture at the time

This was sooo friggin good! I want more, especially when Alex pushed Drew on the spiritual nihilism, could've pushed a lot more! Thanks for an excellent vid

Beautiful conversation gentlemen.

Not quite the conversation I believed this would be but very nice an interview!

I cannot articulate just how wonderful this discussion was for me. I have always respected GMskeptic, but I definitely appreciate and respect him so much more and I didn’t think that was possible. I appreciate the bit about atheistic extremism because I feel like I sometimes fall under that. He has inspired me to go about my atheism from a kind and understanding place. I’ve been working on being a nicer atheist because I know people I love like my brother, need to believe in God just get day to day. Without God and prayer my brother falls into deep depression. I think that’s many people. I appreciate both these guys very much!!

Just a wonderful conversation. Bravo. 👏

Thank you so much - -you have become a real treasure in my life. Your thoughtfulness and Claire are astounding. Just an FYI - - I am a Roman Catholic priest in San Francisco and I'm a member of the polished fathers religious community that promotes religious diversity. It's what my life has been about flu last almost 50 years. I thoroughly enjoy your contact way you present it I just wanted to say thank you very very much.

Hey two of my favorite creators! One thing I really liked during this was the portion about spiritual health and a moral community. Would you ever be interested in interviewing anyone in the Religious Naturalism space Alex? I've become kinda interested in it lately after discovering Eric Steinhart and Donald Crosby who talk about Atheistic Platonism and Religious Naturalism respectfully. I'm hopeful...but skeptical on how effective a Naturalist spirituality can work to subvert antisocial tendencies and provide meaning and was curious on your perspective.

As a Christian, this was an amazing conversation

Has been great to watch you both grow.

Hello Gentlemen. I am glad I found both your channels and the Podcast. Both your points of view are refreshing and give me a sense of where I am sitting at the moment when it comes to my faltering Christianity. Thank you for this discussion.

Alex and Drew, Love you guys and all you do to promote kindly, communicative, and well thought out atheism. I try to keep everything that has ever touched me and is part of everything human beings go through as an active part of my thinking'-feeling-living complex, akin to Walt Whitman's poetic enterprise. A net sum joyous Hegelian synthesis. Well that's enough name dropping. I left Catholicism when I was 16 but had been an atheist for 3 years before that. I wasn't going to leave the church until I made a thorough study of it (and boy is there a LOT) So front row seats at church (to the chagrin of my younger brother) and I was already an avid reader. I followed the mass closely, read the Bible, Catechism, along with all the science, math, philosophy, literature, classical music, gourmet world cookery and languages I was absorbing, as well as other religions. I hope you guys are happy and thriving and synthesizing 😁 As you ex-fundamentalists can imagine my favorite bible verse is 'All things work together for the good for those who love...... now it says the Lord but the Lord is Love so those who love, love. By the way besides the various atheist groups there are nice religious folk, Quakers, Unitarians, or even the Unity Church if you want some NO PRESSURE Churchy services. I remember at the Unity church service in Avery Fischer hall the 'preacher' said, god loves a cheerful giver so give as much (to the collection plate) as it makes you happy to give. It made me smile. I wish you guys all the best on your journey, be happy and have some fun, a friend and fellow traveller JIM Oaxaca

not that it detracts from this brilliant talk at all, but I just realized how much you've done at your age. If No one else has said it yet, I'm proud of you dude. You are a compassionate and thoughtful and insightful force for good in the world.

I really admire both of you for your humility, openness, and ability to state that you (or we as a collective) simply cannot know for sure on so many concepts.

I’ve always wanted to see you two together!!!!!

It takea a lot of effort to have a conversation with yourself, and edit it as if you're talking to another person. Kudos 👏

What a fantastic discussion between those two brilliant young men! I hope they do it again soon.

I have long been a fan of both of these religious god sceptics and enjoyed listening to both in this very engaging conversation !

Thanks for this interview, it was very interesting hearing your perspectives !

As a Philosophy and Sociology double major this is fascinating.

Great job lads! As ever

I've been waiting for this crossover!!! can't wait to watch

my two favorite skeptics having a meaningful discussion, what more can one want

I'm glad they acknowledged the existence of TJ Kirk at the very beginning. He was a surprisingly big influence in early KZfaq, and he likely introduced many concepts related to religion/altheism, philosophy, and morality to many people... despite his controversial presentation and generally edgy personality.

I could listen to you both all day. 🤯

I've only got to watch a few minutes so far, but so far I've really enjoyed this. Unfortunately at this time I have to go to work so I can't watch the whole thing. But now I have something to look forward to watching when I get out of work. :)

Great conversation. Such a pleasure to experience the humility and genuine skepticism through the whole piece. I would love to see a conversation between you guys and Curt Jaimungal from Theories of Everything or a conversation with Ian McGilchrist. His book, The Matter With Things is a book I would love to hear your thoughts on. In addition, the topic of consciousness, psychedelics and UFOs might sound way off base for your channels but I believe there would be some very interesting conversations to be had.

I feel that it’s important to have growth philosophically. When people leave religion they look for a substitute at first before finding their personal truth. It’s good that you built a community for people.

Very good conversation. I appreciate the shoutout with respect to theistic arguments and personal experience discussion. I very much agree with Cosmic Skeptic that personal experience arguments can be incredibly convincing for the individual who had the experience, and are a reasonable standard for justifying one's own position, but due to their nature of not being transferable, it's unreasonable to expect one's own personal experience to be just as convincing to another person. One's testimony can only go so far to someone who has not had a similar experience. And another issue shows up when accepting another's personal experience comes entailed with the denial of one's own personal experience, such as a conversation that might exist in which a Christian attempts to convert a Polytheist by an appeal to a personal experience. The Polytheist may have their own personal experiences that allow for the Christian's personal experience to be explained by the multiplicity of the divine, but the Polytheist's personal experience becomes a problem for the Christian's interpretation of the singular divine.

the new camera angle at 38:10 threw me for a loop. Great podcast so far!

I’m so glad Alex presses further and follows up on his line of inquiry.

I love both of you guys so much. You have both helped me guide through an intellectual deconstruction of my Christian faith during my time at an evangelical university, so seeing you together just makes my heart jump.

"It's not depression" Actually, that kind of sensation is very common in depression. I also think it's funny that nihilism is always depicted as this depressing emptiness. When I first learned the term, I was told it merely meant the belief that there is no inherent meaning. Like, this wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Whether or not this causes despair and apathy or not wasn't a necessary part of the definition. But more often than not I see it used in a way that includes those aspects as part of the definition.

Really cool watching you talk to yourself. Like one of those pitch meeting videos

It’s amazing to me that these two helped shape my understanding fresh out of deconversion, yet somehow we have differing conclusions and ideas only a year or two later.

As an antheist and a nihilist, that whole discription CosmicSkeptic gave of someone just kind of following their desires, while seeing through morality and hapiness, hit right on the mark.

That’s awesome! I don’t know either. 73 years old and no magic ring that I’ve ever found. It’s not like I haven’t been looking. Great conversation. I live in an extremely conservative part Arizona. It is a retirement community. It’s a lot of snowbirds from the upper East Coast in Midwest. I’m from Washington state originally. I just tell them what I feel. I’m not threatening and very upfront. Usually, nothing else is said. There are a multitude of churches in the small community and it is very volunteer oriented. They do a lot of good stuff so I just leave it alone, unless accosted. I had one individual approach me and I just said no thank you. He decided to follow me and ask me why. I simply told him I will not be a slave to your God or anyone else’s. There were a lot of people around. That slowed him down a touch. And I went on with my day. It was a family event at a park. But I certainly don’t go off unprovoked if I hear something about religion. No matter how delusional I think they may be. Kind of like politics yes?

Really enjoyed this. Thanks, both of you.

This is my new favourite video on this platform , amazing questions and even more interesting answers

Both of you guys' channels are quite refreshing for me, having witnessed the evolution of "AtheismTube," so to speak. TAA really lost me when he started ragging on feminists, Thunder the same way. Both of you stick to the issues and ideas without being vitriolic, and with Drew especially, I appreciate his gentle, compassionate approach. Curiosity over ambition. I've got a whole lot of "atheist content" bottled up that I've been wanting to turn into content here, and I'm not sure when I'll be ready/able to do that, but both of your channels are great inspiration.

Damn! I’ve been waiting for the podcast to return

Two such beautiful minds with vastly different personalities. What a pleasure to listen and watch.

Great interview. Its. nice to see GMS bring new levels of nuance to the discussion. For example, at 27:00 he points out quite correctly that there are deeply involved Buddhists who are atheists. This contrasts a bit w/ a video I saw of his from a few years back when he visited some temples in Asia and only provided a cursory summary (which, IIRC, he freely admitted). He's gone way more in depth now. Congrats.

Calm, Respectful, Thoughtful, well done. Curious what are your plans for the future. What do you imagine yourself doing 10 years from now?

When Drew is talking I get to remmember all his "5 things atheists should not do" episodes, and boy - he is one consistent nice fellow

I have followed a similar path! Great and interesting conversation. I went from trying to deconvert people to letting it go...hoping all i can do is help people think differently