For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to Him be glory for ever Amen.

I grew up in a pentecostal/evangelical church. In my 30's I started reading the bible for myself, I was struck by how different Jesus was from what I was taught, and I saw the sovereignty of God and became a calvinist in my living room, reading my bible.

Christians: Is it free will or predestination? God: Yes

God is sovereign and man is responsible

We are saved by Grace alone =Sola Gratia Through Faith alone= Soli Fide In Christ Alone=Solus Christus Revealed in Scripture Alone=Sola Scriptura To the glory of God Alone= Soli Deo Gloria

I do believe that the umbrella of God's Grace is larger than the umbrella of correct doctrine. Of course, there are limits, but if one trusts in Jesus to save them from the just punishment due to their own sin, they will be saved ... even if they are not Calvinists.

“I am of Paul, I am of Apollos... [I am of Calvin]” It really is missing the point. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus. Obey his Word, written and spoken. Develop intimacy with the Holy Spirit. Walk in purity and love in charity. Be zealous towards good works. His grace will guide us into all truth. How foolish and divisive to spend so much time splitting doctrinal hairs, forming camps on either side. How wise it would be to simply confess that we don’t know it all but that we have entrusted our lives to the One who does, not because He has answered every burning question, but because His presence has satisfied the deepest longing of our souls and has redeemed our lives from the kingdom of darkness. People seem to forget that we know the Lord experientially, that He’s not just the product of correct doctrine. Don’t mean to be condemning but these debates have caused so much division among us, drives me crazy. Knowledge puffs up, love edifies!

No doubt this video will result in arguments and accusations in the comments section sadly. We should celebrate what unites us rather than looking to have arguments with our brothers and sisters. Christianity is much bigger than Calvin or Aminius (and Luther as well). Peace, love and hop to you all.

It’s actually not that hard of a question. It’s simultaneously free will and predestination.

Amazing video! Its like a God sent gift because ive literally been discussing this topic with one of my close friend ! Glory to God for pastor John.. so much wisdom to give !

George Whitfield said, “We are all born Arminians. It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.”

“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” (John 16: 33) NIV. Amen.

Gotta love the comments about 'just read your Bible, & enough with the debates'. If you actually do read the Bible, you discover important concepts can legitimately be seen from multiple viewpoints.

The bottom-line is, that you can be a Calvinist or an Arminianist and still be saved (Romans 10:9-13). Thank You Only Jesus!

I'm pretty much a hard line Arminianist, however Calvinists are brothers who don't preach a different gospel so it's not a doctrinal debate to spill blood over. I myself have been guilty of getting overly caught up in this debate

Thanks very much John wonderfully explained. 1 Corinthians 1 verse 29 - 31 ; 29 That no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - and righteousness and sanctification and redemption - 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

Personally, I think both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong as a whole, but the truth is in between the two extremes. The whole debate between them serves absolutely no purpose but to cause more division in the Church. Christ commanded us to follow his teachings, pass them on to others, and make disciples of all nations, not argue about who is right.

Amen! Thanks for that clear summary. God alone deserves all the glory!

We need to share the Gospel so those that choose to believe and have eyes to see and ears to hear can be saved by Gods grace and mercy though his work on the cross. God does harden some hearts and grabs some supernaturally but that is his sovereign right to do. We need to be thankful for the salvation God has given to us freely and stop worrying about how and to whom. All the glory to God be given.

Every time I listen to this I get goosebumps. Thank you, dear brother, for truth spoken!!

C S Lewis is free with God. This issue has been resolved and explain by God's wisdom. The simplicity of answer to this is imbarrassing. I don't know why people cannot accept that we do not and cannot understand everything. This is faith. I hope this helps. Love one another.

I am non denominational, and Calvinism vs Armenianism was never something I’d ever even heard of until I began to stumble across the reformed content online while studying other things. I don’t really get why everyone gets so worked up over this. My thoughts are that the gospel should be preached to everyone and we should make disciples. Whether they chose by free will or they were predestined by God is immaterial and I think not worth worrying about as long as essential doctrine is believed. HOW people are saved is not nearly as important as THAT people are saved, and Jesus only commands us to concern ourselves with THAT people are saved.

The debate is important when it is handled right; in other words, when we go to the Bible to see if doctrines are true or not by searching and studying it (2 Timothy 2:15, Acts 17:11). Calvinism and Arminianism has such baggage to it due to the objections more so than the doctrines. This is the reason many Calvinists call non-Calvinists Arminians when many Christians have no clue what that title means. And many non-Calvinists jump right into the comment section and give their emotional objections about the five points without (not always, but many times) addressing the Bible verses that the points are derived from. And a quick side note, neither the Calvin, Arminius, or their followers came up with the five points of Calvinism. It was the followers of Arminius that began with five points and their was much Biblical debate for months to show whether those points were true or not. The counter points to those five points would later get an acronym TULIP, that was later coined in either the late 19th Century or early 20th Century (No one seems to know when that came about). The bottom line, the debate is actually about how we are saved. Is it of God alone or is it of God and our decision? Either view will reveal what you think of God's attributes, particularly His sovereignty (Isaiah 46:9-11, Proverbs 16:9, 21:1, Daniel 4:34-35, Acts 2:23, Romans 9, etc.), or man's sinful nature (Romans 3:9-20, 8:5-8, Ephesians 2:1-3, Jeremiah 17:9, 1 John 3:4, John 3:19-20, etc.). And either view (many times) effects the way you evangelize and defend your faith. In many ways, it is important.

Thanks John. Hearing the Words of our Lord, makes my heart relize its all Him. He keeps me. You see, I was dead , dead, dead, in my sin. He came and did it all. Its all Him.😊

It's so funny. I came to an understanding of the gospel that ended up being the same as the five points of Calvinism, but without Calvin. It just seemed to be what the Bible was teaching. The when I came across Calvinism I thought that it was just an exposition on how one gets saved that I was surprised anyone would have argued differently. It just seemed so necessary and obvious to me that I could not understand why anyone would disagree with it. Later, I learned that others did not feel this way. I am still surprised at that to this day.

Thank you John Piper for your ministry and your faithful service God bless you always

I am a Baptist minister of the Gospel of the Grace of God. To deny the Grace of God is to deny the truth of the Cross. Not trying to defend Calvin, the truth of scriptures will do that. One who is of works for salvation has not heard the gospel of their salvation. Sad but the truth. Lord Bless

At the heart of this challenge is God’s sovereignty!! Both sides recognize the fact that He (God) is the essence of reality, thus, sovereign over all that He has created, however, differ on a perception on how that reality is displayed and what that looks like. Both sides believe they are right, and they celebrate that perception, all the while looking to the other side of the church aisle wondering how they could ever disagree. At which point God looks upon His people! What’s His perspective and what is His thoughts?

Piper is absolutely right that C. S. Lewis was much too light on exegesis and relatively much too heavy on philosophical reasoning.

Is foreknowledge, freewill, grace and soteriology of any importance? Yes indeed. These questions will always abound in the hearts of any true reformer. The resting place is in Christ alone, by faith alone to the glory of God alone. 🙌🏽

Thanks Piper, you know I love you! And you have exposed sin in the church at a great cost to yourself. So God bless you :)

I don't agree with Calvinism (Monergism), however, I do agree that perpetually debating Calvinism vs. Arminianism is fruitless. However, I also agree that the doctrines and theologies that we believe have great effect on us. I also agree that C.S. Lewis had a philosophy > theology manner of reasoning.

As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing. The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, "Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?" Some said, "It is he." Others said, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the man." So they said to him, "Then how were your eyes opened?" He answered, "The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, 'Go to Siloam and wash.' So I went and washed and received my sight." They said to him, "Where is he?" He said, "I do not know." They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, "He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see." Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?" And there was a division among them. So they said again to the blind man, "What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?" He said, "He is a prophet." The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight and asked them, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?" His parents answered, "We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself." (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, "Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner." He answered, "Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see." They said to him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?" He answered them, "I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?" And they reviled him, saying, "You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from." The man answered, "Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing." They answered him, "You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?" And they cast him out. Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?" Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you." He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind." John 9:1‭-‬22‭, ‬24‭-‬39 ESV bible.com/bible/59/jhn.9.1-39.ESV

Well I found myself searching out these topics because of this train of thought. 2 Cor 5:15 "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." So I think, or maybe the devil in my ear asks, then why aren't all saved? Because you have to believe to be saved I say. then........... John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." and......... Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." The eventual conclusion to all this back and forth thinking is that some are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and others are vessels of mercy, prepared for glory! Prepared for glory? ARE YOU JOKING! Prepared for Glory? ME ??? So because of all this thinking I've been doing I've thought a lot about when it was that I believed. When did God every call to my heart? It wasn't when my father ran us to the church to get baptized because he was fairly sure the rapture was about to take place. I was 12. I guess he figured better safe than sorry. And no, we don't think we are saved because we got dunked. Myself and sister sat with the pastor of the church who asked us all the questions, and made sure we understood what it was we were doing. And we did. But that's not when I believed. I believed when I was 8. Riding in my fathers truck he had a preacher on the radio talking about heaven. Talking about Jesus Christ, and describing heaven. I'd never heard something like that before. See I've worked this back because if it is God who calls to the heart, then He did to mine that day. My reaction was one of awe, and desire, to be there right then, right that very second that's what I wanted. And that's my desire still. I heard this somewhere. Maybe Piper said it, I don't remember, but it sounded right. But this guy said salvation is a door. A person stands on one side and it says, " whosoever will, let him come ". And if a person does, and they walk through that door, on the back side it says "chosen before the foundation of the world".

All things are created by Him, sustained in Him, and reconciled through Him (Col 1:15-20).

Why would God need our input towards our Salvation? It is our sin who got us into this mess to begin with. The only connection with God and me in regards to my Regenerated Spirit, was witnessing it. Great podcast Pastor John!

It's both. No one knows exactly how salvation works. To claim they know the formula for how God works in people's lives and how salvation is found is not correct. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is the right answer. They are simply two different human understandings of a thing so huge and mysterious that there can't be a full answer too for our finite minds

Short answer to why I am not a Calvinist: 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" To all those who call themselves Calvinists I would echo Paul's question, Was Calvin crucified for you? If anyone thinks this approach is frivolous I would reply two things: 1) that I also have a long answer, covering the many unbiblical aspects of Calvinistic doctrine. And 2). I have personally experienced the hurtful divisive effects of a prideful loyalty to Calvin that eclipsed a common fellowship in Christ. There is an individual, a brother in Christ, who has severed all communication with me because he could not convert me to Calvinism. We had discussed various aspects of "tulip theology" but our last communication was a conversation in which I brought up Calvin's involvement in the execution of Servetus. My friend angrily defended Calvin even though one of the "heresies" for which Servetus was burned at the stake was opposition to infant baptism, a charge for which I would be guilty and subject to execution if i had lived in Calvin's Geneva. Historian Bernard Cottret summarizes Calvin's argument in a syllogism based on a lost letter: "Socrates is a man, and therefore mortal; Servetus is a heretic, and therefore combustible." Cottret also cites a letter from John Calvin on Servetus that says: "One should not be content with simply killing such people, but should burn them cruelly." I forget who it was that asked, "How could a follower of Christ the Lamb act like such a cruel and ravenous lion?" P.S. I'm not an Arminian either.

Beautiful GLORY TO GOD PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME

That's true if we were left to our freewill, without hope would we be. Knowing that God gives those up to it.

It’s alllllll of God x God calls, God awakens, God provides, God effects and God secures.

I tried to explain Calvinism to many christians. Nobody believes it or wants to.

What is a source for that C. S. Lewis quote at the start of the video?

The debate matters because it affects how people see God. Calvinist predestinarianism portrays God divinely foreordaining evil things to happen and selecting only some people to believe 'out of his mere good pleasure' (to use the Shorter Westminster Catechism's phrase) despite having the power to save all. What Calvinists frequently miss in railing at Arminians is that Arminian theology is not focussed on free will but instead on the goodness of God, who offers prevenient grace to all. Sometimes, too, it's a matter of scriptural interpretation. Take for example Ephesians ch1v4-6 - it's sometimes rendered as 'God chose us to be in Christ'. More correctly it's 'God chose us in Christ' - as in, God chose Christ, and us by extension if we are in Christ - 'to be holy and blameless in his sight' - being holy and blameless is what God has chosen for us who believe, and so the verse is not necessarily a proof-text for predestined belief. John Lennox's 'Determined to Believe' is worth reading for more information, along with anything by Roger Olson.

Genesis 2:16 NIV "And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are FREE to eat from any tree in the garden;" What happened to this "FREE" that God spoke about? Why did Adam and Eve sin yet they were not "FREE"?

In discussing the differences between the two doctrines it reminds me of the problems physicists encounter with reconciling RELATIVITY and QUANTUM MECHANICS. Their mathematics appear to contradict each other yet BOTH are correct! The solution lies in keeping each in its respective context .RELATIVITY applies to bodies in strong gravitational fields, and with velocities approaching the speed of light; it is deterministic in nature and predictable. QUANTUM MECHANICS on the other hand, governs the very small (sub-atomic) and puts the “OBSERVER” at the center of what is being measured; it is probabilistic in nature and it can only be measured by the law of averages. In the same way CALVINISM appears to side with the deterministic predestination leaving no room for free will; whereas ARMINIANISM puts God as the frame work, but mans free will is center stage. In my own salvation experience I came to realize there is a sort of mixture of both. When I walked down the isle in Oct of 1991 and received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I was told by everyone in my congregation that I was saved, Holy Spirit filled, and Born Again. I was told that I should accept that by faith. Coming from a heavy scientific background I was skeptical nonetheless. I didn’t feel any different than I did before, I still felt the urges to sin just like I did before, the only difference is now I knew what I was doing wrong. I kept thinking to myself that there has got to be more to this salvation business than just saying a little prayer; I needed CERTAINTY; I was going to make it my sole purpose in life to find the answer to this utterly important question, after all, you only get ONCE CHANCE at this; once you’re dead you can’t come back to try again. I made up my mind that I was not going to trust my soul to any man and have them digest the Bible for me, just like I had made it my passion to seek out the truth via science, I was now going to put science aside and dive into the scriptures with the same passion and zeal! I wasn’t much for reading the Bible so what I did was I purchased the King James Bible on CD; that way all the wasted time I spent on the road commuting back and forth to work would be used wisely into hearing the Word. So as the story goes it was an hour drive to work, an hour I spent in my car eating lunch out of a small cooler I brought to work, and an hour drive home; that was 3 hours of Word a day and 15 hours of Word a week; that’s a lot of Word!! In three years of this pattern I accumulated not only scores and scores of scriptures memorized, but also ENTIRE CHAPTERS memorized verbatim word for word! I had a lot of scriptures in my head but was still blind as a bat, hence the scripture: “But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!” (Matthew 6:23) It was not till one Saturday morning on March 25, 1995 while alone on the beach in my car listening to integrity Hosana worship music, reading God’s Word, and loving God with all my MIND, HEART, SOUL, and STRENGTH, that the God of the universe took mercy on me and poured out his Spirit into me opening my eyes and revealing his TRUTH. It was the most unimaginably amazing, and frightening thing I had ever experienced. I had always read the Bible as a 3rd person, in other words, this apostle is writing to this other apostle, this scripture doesn’t apply to me; for the first time since I first began getting into the scriptures did I come to the realization that there was no 3rd person; the Bible had become 3-D with the words alive and coming out of the pages and speaking directly to ME! Every scripture every parable I didn’t seem to quite understand was as plain as if I was reading a children’s book! Now the reason I decided to write this long post is because I cannot stress enough the importance of seeking God through his word on your own. Man will lie to you, God won’t. Jesus promised his disciples: “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8: 31-32) Jesus and his Word are ONE AND THE SAME: If A=B and B=C then A=C A= God the father B=Jesus C= The Word If GOD=JESUS, and JESUS=WORD, then GOD=WORD “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD”. (John 1:1) But guess what… I found out that morning the WORD is also the HOLY SPIRIT!! “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.” (John 6:63) “And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the SPIRIT, which is the WORD OF GOD”. (Ephesians 6:17) One must be BORN AGAIN OF HIS WORD!!! “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23) That would make the equation for God: GOD = WORDSPIRIT or G=WS My background in science would take me the rest of the way leading me to the revelation that God’s equation is G= WS2 (squared) To GOD be all the glory!!! God bless!! bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000247219/From-Darkness-into-Light.aspx

"For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him to me, and at the Last Day I will cause all such to rise again from the dead." - John 6:44. This doesn't settle this fruitless debate, BUT it does tell me that I owe every bit of my faith and subsequent salvation to God and God alone. My sin is my sin. He is not the author of sin, but of salvation. I am no robot, but He does for me what I could never do myself.

Here’s how to sum up this argument. Will there be non Calvinist believers in Heaven? Yes. Given that point alone, it isn’t an essential doctrine and can be argued to be more devisive than anything.

If Calvinistic predestination and determinism is true, then you were predestined to believe that way, and so were those who disagree with you. So then no, it's not important if it's true. If it is false, then it's a big deal since it distorts God's character.

Reminds me of a story I heard once about a man who went to heaven. St Peter was giving him a tour of all the mansions, the Streets of Gold, the Pearly Gates, and even showed him where various people congregated according to their denomination in life. When St Peter took him past a dark closed off street, the man asked who was down there. St Peter replied, "This is where we keep the Calvinists. They think they're the only ones up here."

Explained as only Piper could: Clearly, Heartfelt and Empathetic.

I am neither a Calvinist or an Arminian. My God neither controls every aspect of a person's life down to the minute details nor does He sit back on high, disinterested in His creation as we duke it out amongst ourselves. My God is a living God that interacts with His creation, engaging in relationships with His people as they walk through life together.

Several problems with this one. Whoever provided the Lewis quote...why "Arminianism"? Lewis didn't call it that. How about letting him speak for himself? He described it just fine without need of a label. Dr. Piper; I am COMPLETELY confused by your assessment of Lewis and his approach to this topic. You assert that you have ‘no idea how’ he exegeted the text but that you presume he did. Then that ‘we have to guess’ at how he read his Bible. Even though you ‘presume’ he did exegete the text, you then boldly proclaim that he views the topic philosophically. Do you presume he did expeditious study of his Bible AND he views the topic philosophically…or are you saying you assume he didn’t do his studies ‘properly’ therefore it was philosophical? The only way you have left me to read this is that, since he doesn’t agree with you, he didn’t study properly and therefore views it philosophically. Feel free to correct me. You go on to explain the Biblical basis for your understanding of the soteriological process asserting that Lewis didn’t see the importance of it. Where in that quote does he say that? He simply says that he will not argue it. You dismiss his timelessness reasoning for not arguing the soteriological process ‘philosophy’ but could it be that what he is saying is that your soteriological process is the philosophy and the timelessness of God is DOCTRINE? The only reason you have to cram God into time is to make your process ‘theology’, because without doing so your ‘theology’ loses all of its proof texts and becomes ‘philosophy’. That applies to both sides of the soteriologic debate and THAT is what Lewis is talking about. Not that it isn’t an important question, just an unanswerable one so why be steeped in it? Why let it divide us and cause strife among the brethren? Your PRE, PRE, yes, PRE destined concern is entirely PREsupposition. There IS a reason God uses tensed verbiage in scripture but the only requirement for that reason to apply to soteriology as it relates to God is for your understanding of it to be true. Nothing in any of what you have said requires God to exist in time outside of your need for him to in order to explain your understanding of the salvation process. C.S. Lewis understood the Biblical Doctrine that God transcends time. That isn’t to say anyone (including Lewis) understands what that ‘looks’ like. He just accepted the fact that God exists outside of time and recognized that there was absolutely NO need to bring God into time except to give our minds something to rest on when attempting to understand the incomprehensible.

I’m not a “calvinist” or “Arminian”, i’m a Christian. The desperate and sad attempt to understand everything that comes with being a Christian is destructive to the wider church. God has given us the answers! He has given us salvation! The idea that men can understand something as complex God is ridiculous.

It is not calvinism or Armenianism or provisionism or right theology but the GRACE OF GOD that saves us. Our conversion of being born again is what saves us. Ordo Salutis is the contention and the debate.

the correct answer is no.period.turn the page.all it does is it divides the church with endless arguments.I struggled with this for 10-15 years ,trust me it's an other religious rabbit hole to chase down and find nothing at the end.both party has a point.I believe in both....let's move on

Last point of Calvin....”burn him at stake... off with his head...”? This was a stain on Calvins record. As Christians we can never force our doctrine on people with the use of brutal violent tactics. We are called to peace.

So-called 'Limited Atonement' is a big mistake. It is true that when Jesus died on the cross, his atoning work was directed primarily towards those who would be saved. But he paid the price for the sins of all human beings. See, e.g., Rom 5:18; 1 Tim 2:1-6; 4:10; Heb 2:9; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 John 2:2. In 1 Tim 4:10 Paul says that God is the 'Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe'. This verse is a huge problem for Limited Atonement. 'All people' here must mean all human beings. And Paul would surely not have said that God is the 'Saviour' of people for whose sins Jesus didn't die on the cross and who were firmly on track for hell. Instead, Paul must mean that God is the Saviour of all people in the sense that he provided atonement for everyone. And he must mean that God is especially the Saviour of those who believe in the sense that only they receive the benefits of the atonement. Non-Christians should be told indiscriminately that Jesus died on the cross to atone for their sins. This should be part of the gospel message.

PSA that these great theologians are not providing 'doctrines of men' that Paul warned against. They are sincerely Christian, trying to connect the dots of Scripture and live as if all of it were true. This is no "I'm with Paul" or "I'm with Apollos" Corinthian infighting. No one is competing with Scripture, they are all attempting to exegete it. But we come to different conclusions. Some of us are going to be more right and wrong than others in the end. We're meant to be like the Bereans, searching the Scriptures daily for truth. This is just an issue you do have to deal with as you read your Bible, and you're lucky to have a wealth of resources from God's historical church to help you come to conclusions and consider arguments you hadn't conceived of before. The important thing is not to go further than what Scripture teaches, but also to go far enough. If you believe Scripture is God's word, you believe that God speaks clearly through it. You may be in a privileged position where you get to just avoid these questions and say "nobody's right" without any honest grappling with what different theologians have had to say. Ministers can't do that and you probably shouldn't either. It's a 21st century secular inclination that makes you want to do that, not a Biblical one.

Amos, I almost chuckled at the Whitfield statement you quoted, but this is really a serious subject. [THE] question here: is it important whether or not to be either a Calvinist or an Arminian? To be a Calvinist, you must adhere to the writings of not just, but primarily, of Paul the Apostle. To be an Arminian, you must adhere to the [personal] beliefs of Jacob Arminius, beliefs that are not Scripturally based. When we get to Heaven, this question will be totally meaningless as we will know the truth, that is, it is all about God, His Plan, His Purposes, His Will and Desire. We are here only because He wanted someone to not only worship Him, but to fellowship with Him. Questions we have in this earthly lifetime will simply disappear when we see Him.

It is so important to know that John Piper takes KEY doctrines of the Bible out of context. All of us must focus on what the Bible says, not what man thinks about the Bible. Compare things spiritual with things spiritual! (1 Cor 2:13) A dispensational view of the Bible comes from the context of the Bible - you cannot divorce time from it without pulling the text out of context. We are saved by grace through FAITH -- don't add to God's words, and don't subtract from God's words! Rom 10:9-10 is a passage that clearly lays out HOW one is saved. Not of works - but one must CONFESS (free will) and accept the free gift of salvation.

John Piper is right to say that differences between Calvinism and Arminianism are important. And he is also right to say that matters of time don't negate these differences. But there is a huge problem here, which is the implied assumption that Calvinism and Arminianism are the only two options for an evangelical. So many evangelicals seem to have the idea that, on the issue of the relationship between God's sovereignty and human choices regarding salvation, an evangelical will either be a Calvinist, an Arminian, or will be undecided. This is completely wrong, and it misses not just my favourite system on this issue - Molinism - but my second favourite system on this issue as well - Lutheranism! If the issue of how God's choices and human choices fit together is assumed to be a battle between Calvinism and Arminianism, the whole starting point for examining this issue is wrong. It massively over-simplifies the options.

I sometimes reflect on this: When we get to glory it is likely that most believers there will be Chinese, and they won’t ever have heard of most of the theologians we discuss and get preoccupied with.

Luke 15:17-24 17And when HE CAME TO HIMSELF, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24For this my son WAS DEAD, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. So much for being dead and unable to do anything.

As a non Calvinist who has watched friends and family members convert to Calvinism, the only thing I've noticed change in their lives is an increase in arrogance and an increase in antagonistic debate. Nothing else has changed.

For what it's worth to any Calvinist who reads this: Your theology teaches that we all are sinners deserving of God's wrath. It also teaches that God predestined the elect and the non-elect BEFORE the foundation of the world and BEFORE anyone had done any good or bad. So which is it? Are we guilty sinners deserving of God's wrath or wasn't that really already settled before the foundation of the earth when we were all in fact innocent and had not yet done any good or bad? And don't give me the old potter and clay analogy from Paul in Romans as an excuse to skate by this. These are the kinds of rabbit holes that Calvinism will take you down. I advise you to accept what the Bible says and not what someone like Piper tells you it teaches.

1 Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. --- Question, so if that is what God desires, that all be saved, then why didn't He choose all men to be saved by His irressistible Grace in the Calvanistic sense. He could have right? I don't know if this doctrine is an "essential" like the bodily resurrection of Christ, or the Trinity etc. If it's not an essential doctrine to maintain to be a Christian why so much focus on it and even more, why would we let it influence the rest of our theology as if it was foundational?

Everybody in heaven is a Calvinist.

I’m not a Calvinist, I believe that we only can be saved when we believe in Jesus Christ (that He was YHWH in the flesh) and be baptized in his name. In our small group in church we read a Calvinistic book, though; and I felt uneasy to join the meetings, lately. The book is titled 'The true God of the Bible' and talks in every chapter about one of God's attributes. Although there is already a chapter titled “God is sovereign’, there is another called ‘God elects people’ or so, and that chapter is like 4x longer than all the others in the book. That type of overemphasis is typical for Calvinists, and it shows that there is no balanced view in this belief system. Jesus Christ’s blameless life and his death and resurrection is not the center of their/your theology, but remains only the payment for the elected. Election and ‘Grace’ (which is in fact Disgrace with most of men) are the Center of Calvinism.

Somehow I can’t be so happy about my salvation and my own bright future while knowing family members, friends and neighbors going to hell because God didn’t choose them. It seems very egoistic to me, I can’t help it.

I thought this was a great meditation! Each point is dealt with in a way different from how I’ve thought on them. Devotional. It was like a guided meditation that leads always to praise of God!

The debate is overblown when it interferes with following Christ. If the truth could be known I have little doubt the honest people on both sides would have figured it out already. - And I dare say that any honest person will admit there is true merit to each school of thought....Note please: that we all do well to remember Jesus's words John 5:39 -40 "You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." .....Let's keep our passion for the true Gospel, our zeal for Jesus, our Love and time spent for His purposes....doing His will,... for His Glory, and yes for our true benefit..... Love to all.

One danger I see with Calvinism is the “once saved always saved” mentality. So I can choose to sin with adultery, but have in the back of my mind that I am secure in Christ and that he paid for my sin. Maybe that is why there is so much remarriage adultery in the church today. What passages we can’t ignore are ones like, those who’s names have been blotted out of the Lambs book of life.... work out your salvation with fear and trembling, endure to the end, the 10 virgins all invited, but only 5 made it. David Pawson, says no one can pluck us out of Gods hand, except ourselves. We are not saved until we arrive there with our new bodies. Period. So many will go to hell brainwashed with Calvinism thinking once saved always saved, even as they let sin abound with the cheap grace doctrine. What are they told? ...depart from Me workers of lawlessness, I never knew you. So these may have been believers, but never truly repented from sin nor were they sanctified.

No! It’s not scriptural ! Stay away from the doctrines of men and silly controversies , as Paul told us !

I believe it's both and we can't possibly understand how God works or what He chooses to plan or leave to our free will. But to attempt to stick to one side or the other is human tendency. We can't fully comprehend His ways in this lifetime.

Why do we leave out the synergistic understanding of salvation which was passed down by the Apostles to the early church?

Thorough, good sounding, but he didn't really answer that man's question HAHAHAHA. Calvinists and Arminians always beat around the bush in a convincing way

I want to see some statistical data from John Piper that backs up is wild assertion about Calvinism creating true worship

I’m with Lewis on the issue. Although I see where Piper is coming from, there is no proof of each camp, not without knowing what’s in the Book of Life to determine it, then I think it just an endless debate.

I think I get and agree with the core of this but every time Piper says "It's not a question of time" his next (or previous) statement has to do with time ("When I wake up..." "The next day..." "Right now..." etc.)...so I'm not entirely sure he understands the perspective of timelessness as Lewis mentioned it, though I must admit I've met barely a couple pastors that can and they're still fine people that have led many to the Lord. I think Lewis's comment is less completely accurate but less important than focusing on the fact that God is the one who does all things and there is no true power in our hand. Honestly, Armenianism doesn't even align with the concept of timelessness because it requires that God doesn't know what choice we'll make. Timelessness is the primary thing that sold me on Calvinism in the firsts place, Armenianism doesn't make sense logically if you believe the Bible about the qualities of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...and humans. Aaaaaaanyway haha, I do believe that from our extremely limited perspective, some vague form of Armenianism is right, because we can't see past the moment we live in and, to us at least, it still *appears* as complete choice.

Wrong here John. The difference between you and Lewis isn't a matter of taking biblical sentences seriously. It's to do with exegetical understanding, or how one interprets Calvinisms prooftexts. I side with Lewis. Calvinism is a manichean Gnostic interpretation of the scriptures. The fact that Arminians and Calvinists believe different fundamental truths about God's character should be enough to refute Calvinism, or did God think it was funny to ordain his children to believe different things?? The reason people believe differently is due to freewill, free will to study exegetical methods and to decide on which is the most coherent understanding of the text.

The Word spells out election ❤

I'm not really a fan of having labels to the two sides. It's like making teams that naturally compete against each other, as opposed to teammates who work together. That being said, I was drawn to predestination as it emphasizes God's role in running everything. I just really love the subject of placing God above ourselves. When it gets to the point where we are telling people that it's all God's choice, and that they don't play a role in it, and that they are or aren't chosen and that's just that, I really feel we are doing a disservice to God and his role for humanity. Yes, God is sovereign, but we still have a responsibility to do His Will. We also shouldn't use predestination as an excuse to not evangelize to people or judge people who are more on the side of free will. We shouldn't use it as a reason to be like, "Well God's in control, nothing I can do about it". Just study the Word and do what pleases Him. ... and vice versa...

I think I would be terrified to go to bed every night wondering if I was going to be a Christian in the morning. As i ponder my failings and my sin of just that day. Knowing my will is fallen, is not my hope, and is only free to sin.

I am immune to emotionnal inflections... I am aware of them... Too much drama... seriously...

We should be like more on Jesus teaching not Calvin or Arminian.

No one can try hard enough to be saved... for man it is impossible, but for God all things are possible... its all about God and His will.... it has nothing to do with our puny meaningless sinful will..... We have a will but it is far from free..... we go from being enslaved to sin to being slaves of righteousness.... our prideful nature hates that we do not have the ability to assert our "free" will.... that we do not have any control of our salvation.... that we have to leave it in God's hands and His ultimate control for our salvation..... HOWEVER, we want to leave it in God's hands.... because if it wasn't up to God to save us completely because of HIS WILL, then NOBODY would be saved.... you do not want free will..... if we had free will NOBODY would choose salvation!

I wonder what John's opinion on Molinism is?

I think it is important. If God hates the nonelect so much that He creates them with hell in mind, it makes it hard to justify loving them ourselves.

I love how his respect for Lewis, didn't keep him from speaking about how and why he was wrong.

I tend to be in the calvinist camp. But at the end of the day only one thing matters do you believe and if you do you will strive to be more Christ like everyday by the grace of God and when you fail and you will. you ask for forgiveness with all you have. And that's the key. Call it predestination or not it really doesn't matter. Every good thing you do comes from God every sin is human nature by the total deadness in sin from the fall. Its that simple.

Was Abraham predestined to be chosen or because he rejected every belief around him and therefore gave himself to obey the voice of God?

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Total depravity does not take away free will

One of the best John Piper videos I have seen in a long time

He didn't really say why the debate is important. More argued that his view is correct. They are two different questions. We shouldn't devide over this issue.

No! It’s non essential!! Quit trying to divide John!! Go out n preach the gospel!

Calvinist vs Arminian debate is not as fierce as Pre Trib vs Post Trib debates. Just my opinion

I’d welcome a little debate right now, as I and two other friends are reading through Hebrews and are divided on the subjects of free will/predestination and apostasy/forever saved upon belief. Currently, based off of observations of what I’ve read and watched and talked about, I’m more prone to believe in predestination. It’s uncomfortable to think about our fate not being in our hands, but based on passages in Romans, and Hebrews I don’t know how to arrive at any other conclusion. I am also not opposed to believing in some combination of both predestination and free will, as we will never fully understand God’s way (perhaps he elected us, but also knows that we would believe idk). It’s quite hard to think about, but after the fall, really none of us deserve to be saved. We all deserve hell, and the fact that God is even choosing a portion of us, is a gift. I am so grateful to be accepted into His family. I’d love to hear other’s opinions though, that’s where I currently stand. I also don’t think that once you gain salvation, you can lose it again. There are so many verses that I understand Christ saying he will never let us go. We can never know if someone is truly saved, and sometimes people we thought were actually saved were not, and turned from the faith. I think these two subjects sort of go hand in hand. If someone believes in free will, that we are the captains of our souls, they also probably believe that we can lose our salvation, because of human error. Please, if you’d like, tell me which of these you believe in! I know I’m never the smartest person in the room! :)

Never realised John Piper interpreted those passages in an individual conversion way. As in people being "dead in their trespasses and sins" means the individual being incapable of responding. I dont know how Arminius explained those passages. But I think most biblical theologians interpret those passages in a "Salvation-Historical" way which makes heaps more sense. I dont know if it comes into the category of Calvinism or Arminism. As I think the Reformed theologian Herman Ridderbos took that view also.