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Is the claim Moses was Akhenaten absurd? - A discussion | Mufti Abu Layth

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Mufti Abu Layth

Mufti Abu Layth

Күн бұрын

A snippet from one of Mufti's Meetup where he has a discussion regarding the theory that Moses was Akhenaten.

Пікірлер: 40
@jayleo4554
@jayleo4554 Жыл бұрын
We need more brothers like Mufti. I’ve been waiting for Muslims to speak on these topics.
@pimpnameslimbak
@pimpnameslimbak 3 жыл бұрын
can you make a video explaining this theory please? I've been doing my research but can't seem to find a quranic view of this
@khanG-gq9hc
@khanG-gq9hc 3 жыл бұрын
This Akhenaten being Moses theory is very interesting 💯 The qur'an verses abt the stick definitely make more sense like this
@danielvalencia1185
@danielvalencia1185 3 жыл бұрын
Moses was never a ruler only had an authority position but still was below the Pharaoh even Joseph only had a administrative and advisory position under the ruler .Moses no matter how adapted he was to Egyptian culture he remain Hebrew to the core .So much so that he lashed out and murdered the Egyptian for abusing a Hebrew
@sazimi101
@sazimi101 3 жыл бұрын
@@danielvalencia1185 evidence?
@TheStreetMan1
@TheStreetMan1 3 жыл бұрын
What is certainly true is that Moses was raised in Pharoah's court (as made clear even by tge name, Moses as in Ra-moses...). But he was a Jew, raised by a Jewish mother (Yocheved) nd chosen by God to lead the Isdraelites to Peoplehood and the Promised Land. All written clear as day in the Torah.
@mohammedcharlesmurphy2837
@mohammedcharlesmurphy2837 3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting discussion. The mufti's arguments were superior
@wishuhadmyname
@wishuhadmyname 3 жыл бұрын
I'd like to attempt to answer the Mufti's question at the beginning regarding what the opinions/beliefs/views of historical scholars has to do with truth. I have 2 answers: 1- There are cases where we in the 21st century have lost information that those who came before us had, such as the Library of Alexandria. We know some of what was lost in that fire because of what contemporary writers said. 2- When something has been interpreted a certain way for a long period of time (such as the Tanakh, the Gospel, or the Quran), certain "traditions of interpretation" are created that wind up contradicting what was originally given. Jesus rebukes the religious scholars of his day for their traditions making void the word of God (Matthew 15:1-9). Learning about truth any idea from an earlier commenter than yourself allows you to see past your traditions and get a different, possibly better interpretation of truth. I hope this helps. Peace
@MythDetect
@MythDetect 3 жыл бұрын
Wait untill you hear about the Red Sea crossing was the Nile River & Mt Sinai is in Ethiopia theory.
@kaalufshinni3576
@kaalufshinni3576 3 жыл бұрын
Every thing traces back to ancient Egypt, religion, science, and many others. Many cultures appropriated the culture of ancient Egyptian and packaged it as their own. The earliest Greek philosophers studied in Egypt. These are facts. The ancient Hebrews were uneducated, illiterate , enslaved peasant who could not produce a figure like Moses the law giver. It is more likely that they appropriated the story of Akhenaten, the heretical Pharaoh who upended the Egyptian religion and introduced monotheism to the world.His Hymn to Aten, the supreme God ,is repeated verbatim in the psalms.The ten commandments are a replica of the principles of Maat, the ethical and moral principles that the ancient Egyptians were expected to follow i. e their deen. Even the name Moses is Egyptian and means is born or is the son of. For example the Pharaoh Ahmose, means son of the moon, Thutmose son of Thoth. There are many examples of this. Moses grew up in the Pharaoh's household, spoke Egyptian and was taught the Egyptian religion and sciences. He spoke no Hebrew. Even if you were to attribute the pentateuch or the first five books of the old testament to Moses, you will have to admit that a literate Egyptian like Moses could only have written it in Egyptian. Hebrew was not a written language then, it was the language of illiterate labourers. The Egyptian bible must have been translated centuries later in Hebrew when it acquired script, and Akhenaten was transformed into a Jew. The passage of time and the current amnesia about real history have obscured the fact that the only historical figure who fits the description of Moses is Akhenaten, the Egyptian Pharaoh who founded a new religion that was monotheistic. He was the first historically recorded prophet of monotheism, and all monotheistic religions trace back to him. People think religions come out of nowhere, but every religion traces to an earlier religion, and a careful analysis of texts and beliefs will show traces of older beliefs, rehashed and appropriated by whichever race is propagating it.
@interqward1
@interqward1 3 жыл бұрын
It is absolutely not true that ALL Rabbis don't say this 'kind of' thing. The Zohar rabbis all say that the Pharaoh at the time of 'Moses' was an 'otherwordly' strange being of short-stature with mysterious hypnotic powers, and NOT either an Egyptian nor even an actual human being as such. And there is some conflation here in this above video about 'monotheism' (the worship of the 'Aten') - which is by extension being taken to indicate 'Akhenaten' is 'Moses.' Whereas most people who think that an actual historical figure was the 'Moses' of various scriptures, was to do with one of the 'Thuthmose' people and there were a few of those. I mean, it's hard to get around the meaning of the name which is either 'teacher from out of the reeds(!!)' or 'teacher FOUND in the bull-rushes;' which is fundamentally the Moses narrative anyway. Ahkenaten has no narrative about what he did that indicates he was ever a 'Moses' figure who led anyone anywhere AWAY from Egypt.
@kenmiles23
@kenmiles23 3 жыл бұрын
@@subhaanahmad2149 my comments are getting deleted . He's dead wrong.. Moses was a Yemeni kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fb1ol9Gg3drbo2g.html
@danielvalencia1185
@danielvalencia1185 3 жыл бұрын
@@kenmiles23 Moses Yemeni?? Really?? The term Yemen was nowhere around at the time Moses
@kenmiles23
@kenmiles23 3 жыл бұрын
@@danielvalencia1185why Pyramid aren't mentioned in the Bible?... Quranic /biblical terms for Egypt is misr..and it's consists of mountains river which aren't present in Egypt.. biblical geography is different can worms.. click on the link .
@danielvalencia1185
@danielvalencia1185 3 жыл бұрын
@@kenmiles23 Bible doesnt mention a bunch of things is it suppose too?? If it mentioned every single geographical thing woul need a whole library room to fit the bible
@atilla4352
@atilla4352 3 жыл бұрын
I have heard Tuthmosis like 15 years ago... there are more questions around this thing but don’t forget they were in the desert for 40 years and about 3 new generations were "made" so how much they transmitted later?what the accuracy? these stories are weak Hadith transmitted.
@ainaltair3217
@ainaltair3217 3 жыл бұрын
Moses (pbuh), a non-Egyption, becoming a pharoah (ruler) seems far fetched. According to Mufti, the royal lineage or rule comes from women in the family. First of all, the most widely accepted theory is that the royal Egyption women were not married outside the royal families. According to one theory, if there was no royal match, the daughters remained unmarried and shared the title of Queen along with thier mothers. However, they were not married to their fathers. The name Akhnaten and symbols around him suggest that he removed all other deities and worshipped Sun. Sun God in ancient Egypt were popularized by different names in differnet periods - Ra, Amun-Ra, Aten (sun disk), Atum etc. This contradicts the nature and character of Musa (AS) if he is identified as Akhnaten. If people recognized Musa (AS) from his staff when he returned back, doesn't necassarily mean the pharoah passed on his lineage to him. God knows the best. We may use reason and speculate several plausible thoeries which may be partially correct or totally incorrect. My understanding is that the historicity of any event doesn't affect the fundamental belief which mentioned in Surah 2; Ayahs 3-4 - (those who believe in the unseen, keep up prayer, give charity, believe in revelations and hereafter)
@groznyentertainment
@groznyentertainment 3 жыл бұрын
the cemetery in Akhenaten city show people were under the age of 35, bodies show spinal energy. shows the people were worked to death.
@atilla4352
@atilla4352 3 жыл бұрын
I think people feel it won’t make someone prophet if it’s not Hebrew or Israelite but if we stick so much to this and bloodline then it raise the question to me what about Shias? Shall we join them?
@ghaziabdul-raheem3749
@ghaziabdul-raheem3749 3 ай бұрын
Rational faith needs to work on his sales pitch. Just turned up with flimsy uncoordinated bits of weak arguments and thought that was enough to build a rock solid foundation for his feeble argument. sorry Mufti I couldn't finish this one , your guest is so off putting.
@flyinglegion5697
@flyinglegion5697 3 жыл бұрын
It is coz Moses was NOT Akhenaten, he was either Ahmose or Thutmose. Eitherway majority of egyptian history isn't exactly correct and we don't know the egyptians true history, we only know some of it based on academic interpretations of egyptian hieroglyphs and rock inscriptions.
@asifbrettishmaelmakki9
@asifbrettishmaelmakki9 3 жыл бұрын
32:31 staff. Once a shepard, always a shepard. Looking after sheep, not always litural but figurative ie the good shepard lays it's life down for the sheep.from that,i think jesus says, he is the good shepard in NT.
@atilla4352
@atilla4352 3 жыл бұрын
he means shepherd as he is guiding the "sheep" and the sheep are the people... he even says this, and don’t get into the American/English carpenter failed translation... that’s crazy.
@asifbrettishmaelmakki9
@asifbrettishmaelmakki9 3 жыл бұрын
@@atilla4352. 🤣 American/English carpenter failed translation? Crazy jells well, when it's trustable👍. and i trust the NT kjv, every single verse🤣.
@abdulkarim5176
@abdulkarim5176 3 жыл бұрын
Best author on the subject is David Rohl he presents compleling evidence for his theory that the period of Moses is the end of the Middle Kingdom and it was a Pharaoh by the name of Dudmose who is the Pharaoh of the divine narrative, the Hyksos invaded at the end of the Middle Kingdom, the invasion was made easy because of the destruction of Pharaohs army leaving Egypt defenceless, also an Egyptian eye witness account of the punishments of God is found in the end of the Middle kingdom not the New Kingdom of which Akkanten is part of
@sonofiouiya7362
@sonofiouiya7362 3 жыл бұрын
Egyptologist David Falk did a great video series exposing the cult of Rohl kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iryhp5RzqdG9lmw.html
@lucienlagarde8093
@lucienlagarde8093 3 жыл бұрын
Mufti is right either u believe in the quran or you Believe in the bible
@kaalufshinni3576
@kaalufshinni3576 3 жыл бұрын
Mufti Abu Layth An interesting discussion but unfortunately your good guest rational faith spoiled the whole discussion with his irrational and frankly ,baseless points. You should get another guest who has a more academic bent to benefit your viewers in case you want to revisit this subject. As you rightly pointed out, this is a theory, but it has very strong evidence to back it up. The issue of Moses' s staff and his interrogation by God about this staff is the most intruiging angle. The Egyptian Pharaoh's were always depicted carrying a staff as a sign of authority and for religious rituals. In fact no fewer than 130 staves, staffs and walking sticks were discovered in Tutankhamun's tomb. The Waas sceptre is a stick that has a stylised animal head and a fork end and was associated with Egyptian gods. It was associated with many religious beliefs and was carried mainly by priests and pharaohs. There were other sticks like the Sekhem , mekes , heqa and others which were also associated with Egyptian Pharaohs. When rational faith says that the royal staff could not be used by a shepherd, it just shows his ignorance about shephards. The shephards crook is a type of stick that is similar to the waas. Somali camel herders use the waas, which they call hangool,with its hook at one end and a forked end , as an everyday stick for herding and pulling out thorny enclosures, and other uses. It is easy to see why Moses over explained the staff when asked by god. He was downplaying the authoritative, religious and ritual uses of the stick and over emphasising it's more mundane, practical uses. It was a symbolic leftover from his old religion. It is the same magical stick that wouldn later swallow all the other sticks that had turned into serpents. Again the meaning is clear. The monotheism of Moses or Akhenaten , the one god had swallowed and destroyed the old gods of Egypt. All these are theories, but they do point out that the story of Moses has not been fully fleshed out yet. There are other theories that Ahmose or Thutmose were the model for Moses. They were accomplished pharaohs and law givers. Thutmose 1 and his children Thutmose II and Hateshepsut were also accomplished pharaohs and law givers. Let me leave you with one more theory. Hateshepsut is thought to be the daughter of Pharaoh who found Moses in the reeds and raised him as her own. The connections of Moses to the Pharaoh's are too many to ignore. I hope you explore this and more in your next videos.
@kaalufshinni3576
@kaalufshinni3576 3 жыл бұрын
Let's get some facts right. There is no historical or archaeological record of the Moses and the Exodus. No text, no papyri, no inscription, no historical records, no historical mention or evidence whatsoever. This despite the fact that the story of Moses took place in Egypt, a place that was famous and well known for its record keeping. Yet the Egyptians have no record of Moses and the Exodus story.His story is most famously found in the old testament and later the quran. And as we all know, both the Quran and Bible are scripture and not history. Everything else we will say from here is speculation or theories based on trying to make sense of the story of Moses, and trying to locate who this Moses was historically, locating the man and separating him from the myth. The pentateuch or Torah was written circa 500 bc from oral sources. Cf Akhenaten who lived circa 1300 bc. Firstly, who was Moses, was he an Egyptian, Hebrew, Hyksos, Cushite, Nubian or something else. The only clue we have is his name Moses or Musa. If we assume the biblical and Quranic stories are true, Moses was raised by Egyptians, so he was probably named by them. Mose as I have previously mentioned was a common Egyptian name meaning son of or child of, and was usually used in conjunction with another name eg Ahmose, the son of the moon, Thutmose, the son of Thoth, Ramses, the son of Ra etc. Many pharaohs carried this name. This is the probable origin of the name, and it's possible that the first part of Moses's name was either dropped off or lost by the time it was recorded in the pentateuch or the Torah. Secondly, the story of a child of humble origins found in the reeds and who later becomes a prince , was a well known story in that part of the world, that had been told for centuries, for it was the story of Sargon, the founder of the Akkadian empire who grew up from humble background to unite Mesopotamia under his rule. Thirdly a story similar to the Moses one is told by the Egyptian priest Manetho who recounts the story of a renegade Egyptian priest called Osarsiph who leads an army of lepers and unclean people against the Pharaoh Amenophis, and later changes his name to Moses. Manetho maybe referring to the historical upheavals brought about by the religious reforms of Akhenaten. On the identification of Moses with Akhenaten, I have already discussed this. On the issue of the staff or stick of Moses, I have merely added to the speculation of Abu Layth and my own further interpretation. Whether it was the waas or any other stick that Moses held In his hand when interrogated by god, I have already mentioned the numerous numbers of sticks, staffs and maces that we found in Tutankhamun's tomb. None of us can say for certain which staff Moses was carrying, we can only speculate based on our own reasoning. The other story in the quran about the teacher of Moses, known in the traditions as Khidr, is also intriguing. If, as some say, Moses was a priest of Akhenaten, could this Khidr be Akhenaten? Finally, there is still much research that needs to be done on who Moses was or on what historical figure was his story based.
@atilla4352
@atilla4352 3 жыл бұрын
31:00
@Abz52
@Abz52 3 жыл бұрын
when someone asks a question why do you laugh through it like a bufoon?
@asifbrettishmaelmakki9
@asifbrettishmaelmakki9 3 жыл бұрын
Musa, in quran writings, is seen too read as musaya or moosee(cow see) lol cowsee, thats that good spaghetti. Moshee as aknatan. woo, so woow that statue is his real look! (potentially).
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