Yes, it's impossible to see how God could bless these "leaders" who refuse to stand on Scripture in these matters. What's more alarming is how few of them when confronted with their error, repent of it.

Same here, more or less. I'm a Calvary Chapel guy now. As soon as that stuff creeped in, it was time to leave.

Same

Wow! Our church did that chat too and it was so weird. So, were they led or encouraged to do that by the EFCA (so it seems 😕)?? Ever since then, I’ve noticed they’ve become anti-patriotic, anti-conservative...their posted position papers are left leaning or very middle ground so as not to really take a stand. I’ve been feeling uneasy since their fireside chat on racism. Everything this pastor said resonates with what I’m seeing and it’s sad. Finding another church is the problem. We looked for a bit, and so did others in our church. Some started a home church because there just wasn’t a good alternative. Society is evidence of how far the church in America has fallen.

@@ajstevens9549 Maybe we actually went to the same church? New Hope Church in MN? Otherwise yeah maybe it is a thing that was encouraged by the EFCA

Same here but it was an SBC church. We moved to an "unwoke" SBC church. That being said we are also dealing with the SBC elites and Christian feminism. Not leaving yet because of the grassroots Conservative Baptist Network/CBN within the Convention. As CBN grows stronger in numbers hopefully, prayerfully the Lord will turn the ship back to the "ancient paths." We are seeking to do as Jude instructs, "contend earnestly for the faith."

There are. In Canada, Pastor Artur Palowski did when the health people came in to enforce Covid policy during his church service. Sadly, folks like him tend to be an anomaly in our day. Many pastor’s don’t want the fallout that happens when they actively guard their congregation against such things. They tend to be vilified and dragged through the mud, or even prosecuted. Definitely persecuted in various ways. We sure need to pray for these men to have the courage and strength to step into the fray, and for the rest of us to join and support them in the battle. Truth matters.

I am hearing quite a bit more from believers on things like this, and I am sorrowful over your experience, and am encouraged by your discernment.

Amen Amen Amen

I was seriously thinking of trying an efca church here! I just want a biblical Christ following church without focusing on one biblical text to form their denomination!

​@@KM-zn3lx i currently apart of an EFCA, its not woke at all and its in a very conservative area. It breaks my heart that theres enemies at upper leadership that want to distort Gods word.. I would recommend still trying it out. Ive been to many, many churches in my life and efc has been the best.

@@coolbeans6148 The local EFCA church is a good place to start. Many are not so attached to the National Leadership and are not going the wrong direction. Still, the deceitful manner in which the (now denomination) has got to be where it is at still makes what is said and what is practiced two different things.

Indeed, it is getting VERY difficult to find one. An independent one, not affiliated with any national denomination might be a good choice.

Churches of Christ aren't going woke. Well, probably a small number are. Max Lucado went woke, but that's rare. Many of the Church of Christ colleges are going woke though.

@@michaelward1341 Colleges > Seminaries > Churches > Mission Organizations

@@tkp5181 What does that mean? Colleges go woke then seminaries then churches?

@@michaelward1341 Perhaps it is what that is taught in the Christian colleges, receives a deeper teaching in the seminaries, from which our pastors come to our churches, etc.

Exactly.

Solid. Thankful for this as well.

It seems from my observation, no body wants to rock the boat, except for those that want to go away from the Bible.

Did you end up in a non-denom type or a confessional church?

@@Psalm144.1 Non-denom

Sorrowful for your experience there, "Mama." I am so encouraged by your discernment, though, and pray you continue to grow more in grace and knowledge as you follow the Lord who gave us everything needed for life and godliness in the God-breathed Scriptures.

@@craigchambers4183 thank you my brother! See you soon in the clouds!

The same is true of the EFCA church I pastor. We were not 'hearing' the National or the District's influence, even though it was there. That is mainly because things had become tenuous between the DS and me.

Sorry to hear that, Meade.

The church you were in could very well have been as you describe. Many still are. I don't know if they are the 'most' or not, but the problem certainly lays at the door of many, and in particular with the National Office.

I hope that is now the case, brother. I just received an email from another Pastor in Nebraska (your District) whose church, and he, left the EFCA over these issues two years ago.

Jay, as a long term member of Desert Hills Bible Church (formerly Desert Hills Evangelical Free Church) mentioned at the 56:00 minute mark, I can tell you the direction of the EFCA leadership is the definition of woke. The elders of our church spoke to multiple leaders of the national EFCA organization at length and they acknowledged the direction of accepting women pastors, platforming women pastors at their conference, LGBTQ acceptance, supporting BLM, trying to encourage churches to be racially diverse, and trying to include people who wrote antichristian literature as explained during my pastor's open letter to the EFCA. The direction the EFCA has chosen is worldly, and when confronted with Scripture, the leadership rejected it. You may not be accepting the position the EFCA has taken, but they are literally the definition of woke.

@@samlind8676 Did not know the depth of this contact, Sam. Thank you for giving more clarity.

What about the Dallas Statement that pastors from the EFCA have signed? Is this credible? Are church members even aware of it? Do pastors openly speak on what is going on in this organization?

@@cat-bg3rv what Dallas statement?

The EFCA's 'big tent' was originally dispensational premillennial in its view. Now it is whatever millennial view one holds to, which should not separate brothers as long as we can hold discussions over the Scripture without anger. That being said, what you indicated by minimizing biblical prophecy is the nonchalance toward the return of our Lord in that no views are even allowed an audience for fear of offending someone. I am premillennial, but appreciate the other views and especially the anticipation of the return of our Lord Jesus and how that informs our living for Him right now. We must be engaged in Scripture on this major teaching of the Word as essential to our life's practice.

Unless there is a great repentance, I foresee a “state” church and The Church. How much the Church will need to go underground remains to be seen…

Has any denomination survived for centuries, or decades even, and not become compromised? A denomination will end up splitting into a liberal wing and a biblical, conservative wing. And then it just a matter of time before the biblical one has to split because of liberalism; lather, rinse, repeat. Satan could own and operate 99.9% of the visible church, and would still come after the 0.1% because he hates God and God's people. I think there are some things Christians need to learn.

@@mikeyonce2323 I agree. A look through church history shows the constant drift and the Lord constantly bringing people (back) to Himself.

@@megofiachra3247 I definitely see that with the Southern Baptist Convention and Rick Warren will be leading them.

I received a book from our District's missions fellow back in 2007: "Breaking the Missional Code," by Ed Stetzer. Long on charts, graphs, bubbles, data, etc. and short on biblical texts. Seems like every book I received and/or was directed to were also pragmatic, like "Bridging the Diversity Gap" by Alvin Sanders (2013) and "Becoming a Church the Cares Well for the Abused" Handbook, Brad Hambrick General Editor, (2019). The latter was reviewed by Jonathan Harris about a year in the episode "The Caring Well Initiative."

@@craigchambers4183 Ed Stetzer is a total missional church movement guy, very ecumenical, social justice etc. Other names to watch for are Alan Hirsch, Michael Frost, Caesar Kalinowski, Rob Wegner...

​@@CLJorgie Thank you, Chris.

Thank your for your email, Pastor Timothy. Jonathan corrected it.

God Bless you. We need pastors that stand for Truth! You are in my prayers!

@@hisservants8003 Thank you.

I’m having a hard time finding a church for my family that has not gone left

@@stacydelrio1433 I am sorry to hear that @stacydelrio. I do think the Lord has a place for you that could be near enough. No church will meet all you might expect, but there remains those who are not so compromised with the world and its system. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help, and just prayed for you.

@@stacydelrio1433 Have you found one yet?

So many of you realize things long before I did. The Lord's blessing on you all.

@@craigchambers4183 thank you for speaking out…no one took my concerns seriously. I was just a small minnow in a big ocean of fish. It’s truly heartbreaking what has happened to the denomination as well as others. Prayers for you!

@@JodKrMdr I'm a baby small minnow, but I'm in Christ so I'm ok with that.

Thats what happened when the Bible believers left the Southern Baptist Convention.

@@au7-721 I thought each SBC affiliated church owns their own property. Like aren’t baptists a congressional polity?

I 2nd this....I cannot listen to the entire segment presented here....Great content....much 2 long...GIVE US HIGHLIGHTS...!

Yknow, I might consider doing that myself if Jon doesn’t mind. Right now I’ve dabbled with editing and my computer is too burdensome to do much with, but since I watch his videos consistently I could note highlights for myself to cut later, to promote for sharing and getting the message out more. Not for self promotion. That said, the subject matter fits perfectly with the username I picked for myself :D

That is very good to hear, thank you.

@@craigchambers4183 Absolutely. They have a KZfaq channel and they have connections with Grace Community Church in SoCal. NorthCreek Church in Walnut Creek.

@@ChewMadeNew It's always helpful to share information, to make thing open and understandable. I don't know about GCC in Southern Cal - are you saying they are connected to John MacArthur? On the face of it, I highly doubt that. Thanks!

@@craigchambers4183 I’m saying that they have people who used to go there when they lived in SoCal. They also have masters university and seminary grads on staff.

Where does your church stand on Creation?

They are being told to teach the Word concerning what a godly wife and mother are called to be in their home, in their community etc. As a woman I am to look to my husband, elders and pastor for the truth of the Word.

We left the evangelical covenant about 3years ago. I understood much less of what was going on, and we left because we moved, but north park university was something to be avoided and the last three years have solidified our decision. Naively, we chose an SBC church! 😂. I thought at the time, “such foolishness won’t be tolerated in the SBC.” Alas. Our congregation is not woke, but how much the leadership understands of the current situation and what they decide to do, I don’t know.

You are referring to the Evangelical Covenant Church, brother. I'm referring to the Evangelical Free Church. I think many EFCA churches, or pastors would still line up with Chicago, Danvers/Nashville and other biblical confessions in these matters. Probably you can have a 'tell' come up with EFCA guys if asked about their thoughts on John MacArthur: strong reactions against him (as in pro-Beth Moore, etc) verses he's sound even if we don't agree on everything/love his teaching! response.

As has been noted, your reference to North Park is the Evangelical Covenant Church - and what a hot mess North Park and the ECC are. I am in process of leaving an ECC church, several years too late I admit, but you wouldn’t have to dig up a blog article here or there to recognize what has been happening there. It’s openly, proudly woke. My previous pastor of many years was biblically rooted, and I paid little attention to the denomination. But when he left, I came to see how bad things were. Ironically, I just visited an EFCA church this past Sunday and found it very refreshing. Hopefully it is not too late to turn the tide in this denomination like it is in the ECC.

@@JamesAylard Obviously I concluded that the EFCA's leadership has covered, ignored and repudiated (in claim only) the issues raised. So has many EFCA pastors. But I also recognized that not all have gone this route. I hope the one you visited is not defiled by such things. Still, I also concluded (for myself alone) that because of these actions (not always by their words) they are not only biblically unsound in regards to sufficiency of Scripture alone, but that it has gone so far as to be resistant to repentance so as to return to sound doctrinal practice, and therefore shall not be turned back. I am glad for your hope, but I think that same hope that was in the SBC illustrates the end game will turn out to be unrepresentative of the truth of God's Word. I am completely open to be proved wrong and for your hope to be proved right. May our God judge these things and purify His church within the EFCA.

@@craigchambers4183 I have no doubt that you weighed and prayed over these matters carefully and thoroughly. As Jon Harrison expressed in your interview with him, it isn’t clear to me, either, how the administration of the EFCA is structured and what efforts you or others may have already attempted. That leaves the question open in my mind whether a dedicated group of pastors and lay people could fight and reverse the rot before too much of the organizational integrity has been compromised. Your conclusion seems to be that too much has already been compromised making repair impossible, just as seems to be the case already in the SBC and the ECC. The number and degree of Evangelical denominations that seem to have been severely undermined, if not ruined, by wokeness, seemingly all within a few short years, keeps me scratching my head as to how? Was the rot always there, but beneath the surface? Or were the events of the last few years really enough to lead so many faithful men and women into such depths of compromise?

The EFCA did begin with Arminian perspectives, and round about the time I entered many were, like myself, understanding the doctrines of grace. So, it is not 'calvinism' that has taken people in this direction, though a perversion of it has been co-opted by some 'progressive' "Christians." The one is not connected to the other.

@@craigchambers4183 so it is just a coincidence that both after the EFCA and the SBC went Calvinistic, they also started going woke? I only know the Southern Baptist context of this happening, but noticed shared patterns by the Calvinism and woke. Both woke and Calvinism are academically driven; both have a distain towards the common man and his common sense understandings of free will, responsibility, morality, and language; both re-interpret language subtly push their agenda; both use deception to spread; both seek to change the young who go to educational institutions (university or seminary); both hide what they are doing because most of the people who pay for their institutions do not hold these beliefs; both often first spread through the youth departments; and both in churches seek spread their agenda with a a top down/authoritarian/deceptive/ approach. Interestingly, much of this behavior was also done by the liberals who took over Methodism years ago according to Thomas Oden. Back when I left Calvinism almost 15 years ago, I would call many of the reformed thinkers “right wing liberals.“ This is because they thought like liberals but had conservative content. Now I see how easy it is for them to make the shift in content, too.

@@paulchamberlain4810 I was only noting that there is not a connection. I see you have a different agenda to argue against it, and I did not intend to enter into some argument over it. All I will say is that every SBC pastor I know who has opposed being 'woke' is Reformed. Of those leaving or having left the EFCA, I do not know all their understandings on this, but of the ones I do know, they are also Reformed. I am Reformed, I am not 'woke.' It is not a narrative than can be a blanket statement as all these men and congregations believe the Word and its sufficiency. I am sorry for your experience.

​@@craigchambers4183 I agree not all reformed are woke and there are reformed pastors who strongly speak out against it. I have watched KZfaq videos by reformed people opposing it. I was noting that Calvinism was a precursor to the woke movement in these two Evangelical organizations, at least in the southern Baptist context Calvinists where at the sharp end, and that both of these movements were spread by similar patterns. Also, I have yet to hear any of these reformed pastors who are condemning how the woke movement is spread condemn how Calvinism was/is spread through top down and deceptive tactics like stealth Calvinism (Calvinist pastor candidates lying to steal non-Calvinist churches). When that happened to my church, I left the SBC. This gives the impression that they don’t care about these dirty tactics, they only care when they are used against them. There are and were non-Calvinist pastors standing up against these type of things. Unfortunately, the Calvinists seem late to the game. For example, Peter Lumpkins, a strong non-Calvinist, questioned Al Molher about these types of things back at the 2011 convention (You can find it on KZfaq, I don’t know if they let links be shared here). The only response I saw from the Calvinist side at the time was mocking Peter and claiming he got punked by Molher. You can also compare how concerns about Calvinist Russell Moore being appointed president of the ERLC were dismissed when he replaced the conservative non-Calvinist Richard Land. And we all saw how that turned out. So yes, there are reformed people strongly standing up against the woke. Unfortunately, they largely only started doing so after Calvinists gained dominance in the SBC and any non-Calvinist movement was destroyed. I’ve wondered if their Calvinism blind them to what their fellow Calvinists were doing? Or they were disappointed they were not included in the division of the spoils? Or they thought they could control the left wing element of their movement to their advantage? Or they thought the liberalism was worth the spread of Calvinism? I don’t know… if Calvinist had joined with us non-Calvinists over 10 years ago to stop this problem, it probably wouldn’t be a problem. But then Calvinism wouldn’t have spread as well either, so maybe they took that into account in their decision not to make a stand back then? Again, I don’t know…

@@paulchamberlain4810 I'm a johnnie-come-lately in terms of personalities and names, but I see how you follow the path. Bad calvinist pastors exist, and so do bad non-calvinists. Still sorry for your bad experiences, and glad for the good ones.

I had considered IFCA prior than associating with the EFCA back in the 80's. There are a couple of reasons that they would not accept me, one is the pre-trib position they have that I do not; I am premil, but not pretrib in my understanding, and unless I change those 2.5 years of difference I do not qualify. I really do like them, and John MacArthur holds his ordination with them.

​ @Craig Chambers Thanks for the note brother. I know of regular baptists S/SW of Pueblo. Maybe you're tracking those as well. Keep pressing onward. I just bought J. Benziger's book "Stand" on this topic. Sounds like that's what you're doing.

Not sure if it is a united group of churches. Many churches go by the name Mosaic, I only know of the one 'mega' church that hosts things like you can see in the references. The Founding Pastor/church planter who started that church (now goes by the title Directional Leader) is Mark DeYmaz at Mosaic Church, central Arkansas. You can read about that conference in the references, but the website is easily available: Mark DeYmaz Mosiac Church. He is also know as the President (on Zoom) and Executive Assistant, Author, and Movement Leader.

@@craigchambers4183 interesting info, thank you. I’m definitely putting that in the back of my mind

The one i know of is in Waco, tx, and their “mission statement” or description is very similar to the Arkansas one.

@@outboardprsnlstndup Thanks.

Where are we told to show deference to the “masculine?” Can you chapter and verse me on this? Husbands, elders in the church, where else? I owe no deference to you, my brother, unless you lead my church. Teaching women and children is hardly deferential. It is a high calling and a privilege.

@@karigross4596 Show your chapter and verse where in Scripture there was a female Pastor. I'm not being mean just want to see your theological view of leadership in The Church.

@@fuzfire you misunderstand me. I am fully complementarian. Your wording implied I, as a woman, are required to “show deference” to the “masculine.” I am in submission to my husband and elders, but to no one else based on their sex.

“His masculine leads his feminine” is anthropocentric and wrong. God does not have feminine qualities. God as the man Christ has only masculine qualities. Arguably the divine has neither, which is NOT saying he’s androgynous or gender less. Is saying “God is not a man that he should lie, or a son of man that he should change his mind.” Both male and female are made in the image of God, but pay very close attention: male and female are CREATED. That means they’re not part of the eternal nature of God. God created man first and identifies with masculine pronouns because masculinity is a more direct reflection of God’s attributes. But it is a colossal mistake to think that masculinity as exhibited by men **is a divine attribute,** and it’s even worse of a mistake to think that femininity is. Gender is not rooted in the Trinity, it’s rooted in the relationship of Christ to the church.

Though I grant that you said his image which isn’t technically wrong but you implied it’s reflective of his attributes, which is why I pushed back. It sounded EFS

Whoa.

As an association I think G3 is tops. No mechanism as a denomination, so ordination not overseen. Its more of an added thing to who you are already associated with denominationally/movement wise.

My wife and I grew up in Southern California, and it shows. I also call my brothers in Christ "guys." 🙂

Thank you.