This will HANDS DOWN be the most debated star wars movie

Dan seems to be the only one really in tune with the whole situation. Regardless of your individual opinion of the movie it has to be acknowledged that that there are a large number of people who had some pretty major problems with it. Dan is absolutely spot on with why there is backlash and it doesn't so much have to do with the changes the movie makes to the characters, larger story and lore as it does have to do with the way in which it was presented. The throwing away lightsaber scene is very representative of this and could make fans of the series feel silly for caring and/or speculating. In addition, there are some serious writing problems with the movie revolving around the fleet pursuit, Finn/Rose mission, Admiral Holdo's decisions and Poe's mutiny.

32:45 _"I'm so glad that there's not a plan"_ Said by literally no human.

Dan is the only one who gets the backlash

RIP Admiral Ackbar, he should have been the one that ran the ship lightspeed through that star destroyer, that one have been a great ending to his arc, instead of someone I never heard of before.

It almost turned into Movie Fights for a moment there...

I respect all opinions (positive & negative) about this movie but Dan Murrell... THANK YOU for being able to explain (to the rest of the panel & the audience), the side of how some other "Star Wars" fans (like myself) that believed the "Last Jedi" was a totally letdown because you mentioned a few things that were accurate on how we feel (or felt). I love "Star Wars" and I really wanted to love this movie (going in), but after watching the movie and knowing the director (Rian Johnson) accepted to "shock" the audience and take a 'new & bold' direction with this franchise (with a dedicated fan base), which includes not continuing plot ideas from "The Force Awakens" (like Rey's parents & Snoke's history), he accepted this 'backlash'. Some of the scenes (like Luke Skywalker being a broken man & tossing the lightsaber given to him by Rey over his shoulder was like a cheap joke for laughs, Poe (who is a seasoned pilot & understand the importance of his role in the Rebel Alliance) disobeying orders which caused many rebels to die, the side mission with Finn & Rose could have been removed all together and given them something better to do with the rest of the ship members, the 'ship to ship' chase was a real joke, etc). It's about 'execution' of this scenes & Ideas that could have been done better. I could go on, but that would be another two paragraphs!

I hate when people tell me why I didn't like a movie. No Joe Starr, Dan and I didn't like it because it was a joke of a movie and a mess....not because it didn't do what we wanted.

Dan is right. That's exactly how I feel and I can't believe how dismissive the others were in seeing his point of view.

I don't consider myself a diehard Star Wars fan- more of a Blade Runner or Alien fan myself, but I like Star Wars alright too. I'm 30 years old and grew up watching the original movies and have them memorized fondly like most of my generation, but I don't spend time on star wars leaderboards or obsessing over where the next movie will take the characters. I'm a fairly average fan. I had some relatively minor criticisms for Force Awakens, it was a little rehash-y here and there, but I really enjoyed it overall. However I had a ton of issues with The Last Jedi, and the problems aren't with the fact that they "subverted expectations" or that everyone's fan theories were way off. Already tired of hearing that cop-out response. The problems were bad writing, plot holes, throwaway subplots, and character actions that contradicted the personalities and motivations we've been presented with. It's not what they did, it's how they did it. There are some great elements in there with Rey, Luke, and Kylo, but the story is so bogged down with nonsense that it was hard for me to appreciate the truly awesome moments (of which there were many). Dan is the only one on the panel not being pretty dismissive toward the legitimate criticisms many people have, and I agree with pretty much everything he has said about this movie both here and in the spoiler review.

Dan is the Last Jedi. OMG to the other 3

The guy to the right seems to be the only one that have some insight to the hearts and mind of the fan base. the other guys seem to be so disconnected from the fact that this movie have generated a backlash that any claims that they are fans to the franchise should be taken with a grain of salt.

Next movie, Chewie, R2D2, C3P0, Lando Calrissian, will all blow up in the Millennium Falcon off camera and it will just be mentioned after a joke between unknown characters.

Dan said a lot of things I've been thinking over the last couple days.

I'm with you Dan, sorry it felt like you were fighting alone at the table =)

I don't mind making different decisions and taking risks, but they should at least add to the story; it just felt like they read all the popular opinions and theories and said "all right, we'll shock them by not doing that", without actually having some kind of continuity plan. This is a trilogy for god's sake, the events will have future consequences, and to me it seems like they're just making it up as they go along rather than having a clear progressive structure. Really you could have skipped TFA and nothing will have changed because they killed off half the cast and abandoned alot of sub-plots that were hinted to be important in future installments.

totally agree with Dan about Luke just throwing the saber over his shoulder. Totally wasted a great moment. We waited 2 years to see it treated so flippantly. I was fine with him not wanting it, but it could have been handled more seriously instead of it being used as a comedic element. He could have just dropped it to the ground.

Dan, you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why I am frustrated with this movie, the way they just casually throw out elements that makes it a star wars film.

I find it ironic that "The Last Jedi" is about finding balance and the reviews are horrible or fantastic.

In all honesty, and with all due respect, I take exception with the idea that those of us who dislike TLJ are a so called "vocal minority". I'm 45 and love the SW franchise with all my heart. I was neither disappointed in the blazing of a new trail, nor did I have theoretical expectations that I took into the movie. My wife and I went in wanting to enjoy the next SW movie and that's it. Neither of us thought that it felt like a SW movie. While the visuals were stunning and the score amazing, the writing was bland, the circumstances felt very unnatural and contrived. The establishment of the plot line from TFA was totally negated in TLJ. A map to lead the resistance to Luke just so Luke could tell Rey he went there to die? A military leader that refuses to explain to their troops the plan that is unfolding? Stopping military strategy so combatants can exchange quips and one-liners? No, my objections aren't politically minded, not based in chauvinism, and not because I'm part of a different generation. These are issues of continuity and bad writing; things that should be the bedrock of any good piece of cinema...and it pains me to say it. Yeah there's been an increase in the number of people opining. I never write reviews. I just go about my life and enjoy what I enjoy, and dislike what I dislike. The thing that has motivated me to speak out in this instance is the idea that seems to have permeated society at the moment, and that is if you don't like the news then it must be fake. And that's the issue I have with this particular video as well. People can't reconcile that half the audience hates this movie, with all due respect. That doesn't make it fake, that indicates that it's polarizing. People need to embrace fact rather than run away from it. Look at box office mojo, it clearly indicates an incredible drop from the opening two days. The last two days (Monday 19th and Tuesday 20th) ticket sales are down to $20m...roughly $17m below TFA at the same point in its theatrical release. That's not a misnomer...it's a harbinger of public opinion and interest. I invite anyone to look at the box office numbers and see for themselves. I'm not trying to convince anyone at all that the movie is bad. Art is subjective and everyone has the right to love what they love. In fact I envy the people who love this movie...I wish I could too. I'm trying to convince people that the divide is real and there is a large part of the audience who dislike it based upon real, tangible reasons, And not because of an agenda.

This was a great discussion. Thanks for showing that we can have friendly disagreements.

Thank you Dan. You've really put a finger on some things that bothered me. I'm sick of people talking down to me just because i was disappointed. The people that complained about TFA are not necessarily the same people that didn't like this one. I loved TFA and didn't like TLJ.

God Dan is smart.

This was maddening to watch. Dan expressed his point of view quite well. The left half of the table were acting like bothered clowns. Like "whipper snapper know it alls" whose general attitude is "get over it". Tossing around words like BOLD to mask the director's poor choices. Lord...and Roth you don't need to remind us that you LOVE this film after saying something mildly critical.

This discussion stressed me out. I don’t like any discussion where someone says, “No this is how it is and you’re wrong and I’m right end of discussion.” This was not a calm respectful conversation from all parties.

30:55 Roth's face is goddamn priceless

33:10 for the next 30 seconds is a great reason why I am annoyed at this movie. I left the theatre thinking to myself, why on earth do I feel like I watched the beginning of the trilogy instead of the second movie in the series.

Dan is totally on point with this movie.

the reaction to this film reminds me of the initial reaction to prisoner of Azkaban. Fans were pissed because it, to an extent, undermined established lore in previous films. Same story here. But, with the benefit of hindsight, we all came to love it because it is unique and gorgeous and so well directed. My feeling is that Last Jedi will experience a similar sort of redemption with time

The passion! The intellectual debate! The thematic discussion! Good stuff, SJ.

Dan is holding back so much :D The man knows what he saw

Dan, the voice of reason

Dan is on point. Everything he said is where I'm coming from. You can subvert expectations, and fans DID want something challenging and different but on top of the jarring humour, the jarring tone, the pointless side-plots, PLUS the lackadaisical approach to throwing away elements to the lore, the feeling of contempt to the people who cared about what was set up in TFA, etc; It was just too much for TLJ to hold together.

Put all the pros/cons aside and I think it’s down to two things: (1) The original trilogy was a classic hero’s journey / fairytale story. Suddenly this movie brings us into a dreary and complex reality. Fundamentally, whether these two perspectives “link together” depends upon what kind of fan you are. Not everyone wants “Cinderella Part 2” where she is divorced from the Prince and hooked on the booze. (2) It’s all a matter of degree. The key is that Luke has become a “loser” in **some viewers eyes’ - he’s in the space equivalent of his momma’s basement with alien caretakers doing his laundry and drinking green milk straight from the bottle, deliberately cut off from the force so he doesn’t have to do a hero’s chores. He could have been a failure without being a loser, and the movie might have made us feel the emotional weight of that failure more deeply had the context been fleshed out, and had Luke not seemed so juvenile in his attitude. On the flip side, Luke is never fully redeemed - he manages one last act to put him at peace (as Rey puts it), and that is bittersweet for Luke, for the audience, and for Luke’s relationship with Rey. Stacked on top of that, the Force Awakens was about getting the map to end up in this uncomfortable place. That’s tough for some fans to swallow. I liked the movie, but I think they shook up the character of Luke a little too much, or perhaps simply in the wrong way. There are better ways of passing the baton to the new cast that still would have given credence to the idea that you can’t always fall back on old heroes.

The three guys on left should get briefing about what is the discussion about. They should discuss the divisive opinion amongst fanbase. The three guys just spitting other side opinion (that don't like TLJ) and call those who have different opinions as stupid/delusional fanboys. On the other hand, the guy on the right presents both opinions and trying to elaborate where those opinions (the pros and the cons) came from.

Dan Murrell, once again, nails it.

I didn't like that Spencer and especially Joe just dismissed the divisive nature of this film and blamed it on overreacting fan boys. I'm so thankful for Dan's point of view. Don't lump together people who are giving valid criticisms with those who are just hating on the film just because they like to hate. The Last Jedi acts like The Force Awakens doesn't exist. I'm fine with a film subverting expectations but when the movie completely ignores pretty much everything that The Force Awakens sets up than I feel we have a problem. I still enjoyed the movie but you can clearly tell Rian wanted to make his own Star Wars movie and didn't care about continuing the mythology that was set up before it.

Poe, Rose and Finn, Rey and Kylo, Luke make wrong decisions that make meaningful, right actions into failures and mistakes. While I see it can be a flaw with the narrative, I wonder if Rian was using these plot elements and narrative decisions on purpose. Even Del Torro's character mentions to Finn and Rose that no one is right. There is no good guy and bad guy. I wonder.

My biggest issue with the Finn and Rose subplot was that it created a massive plothole for no reason. The whole plot conflict is that the First Order has their evacuation ships trapped as they are fleeing and running out of fuel, yet Finn and Rose can just zip off to another planet and back? Doesn't that kind of undermine the whole "trapped" thing?

30:46 that face you make when joe star is talking out of his ass.

Yup, you nailed it Dan! You gotta respect the hardcore fans and not just toss them over your shoulder like trash.

Dan, only one talking sense

Honestly episode 9 could have 2 hours of Rey sitting on the toilet and the 3 guys on the left would defend it as the greatest thing ever

Chewbaca seems to be having a pretty decent life.

I had some issues with it, but after seeing it again, I still would say I liked it. The Finn/Rose storyline was the one I had the most problems with (along with the humor bits and miscommunication as a plot device). I feel like its pretty clear the original plan for Finn was that he was the reason the First Order was able to track them (there's a line "We have them on the end of a string," which then immediately cuts to Finn), so the rest of that story didn't really gel together as well. What I had NO issue with, is what seems to be the most vocal criticism I hear about this movie online (not really on SJ as much thankfully). This is mostly people being annoyed their fan theories didn't matter or pan out (Rey's parents, Snoke), or that the male characters were written weaker/dumbed down (especially been seeing this around Luke and Poe). I thought Luke was one of the highlights of the film, and I think its completely valid that time and those experiences would have changed him from his RotJ-era. And with Poe, its showing that being a hothead doesn't always pan out, despite what most action movies tell you otherwise. Rey and Kylo may be in similar places physically than they were in the last film, but mentally, they have definitely changed. I was so worried going into TLJ that it was going to feel like TFA did, with too many familiar story beats to how a Star Wars sequel should go. I was just happy at how different it was, and how it seems committed to telling its own narrative, rather than holding onto expected conventions. I mean, I've already seen think pieces on "who the stable boy could be," and I kind of want to face palm, just stop. It doesn't matter. He's a symbol for a new generation of hope within that universe, and a new generation of Star Wars fans. There's no deeper meaning there. TLJ grabs the audience and tells them that their heroes are flawed and human, you have to give up idols in order to grow up, and that disappointment will stay with you. Then it gives you a big hug and tells you that you will heal, and you will grow and that while that may be painful, you will come out better for it. There is good and hope in the world and it will always win. You matter, regardless of everything in your life, regardless of where you came from, you matter and you too can be a part of this story. Whether or not it executed that message as a whole seems to be mixed, but I think it succeeded in the arc that matters the most.

(WARNING: SPOILERS) As usual, Dan is spot on. I think some (not many) of the decisions Rian Johnson made were good for Star Wars, but he went to far on some of them to the point that they seemed like thinly veiled insults to fans like myself. Personally, I think most of the problems that the hardcore fanbase (again, myself included) stemmed from the death of Luke Skywalker. If Rian had not made that decision, I would have left the film on a high. I would be mad at some of the other decisions, but at least I would have left on a high. Instead, I left the theater sad, dejected, and confused, more than ready, in fact enthusiastic, to pick this movie apart. Simply put, Luke was not given enough to time to have his redemption arc from grumpy broken man to Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master! Furthermore, on a selfish note, I wanted and needed to have a awe-inspiring, magnificent lightsaber duel with Luke Skywalker, not just teased by the one in The Last Jedi. I have been waiting for this since I saw Star Wars: A New Hope when I was nine. Also, a two quick reminders to Spencer and the rest: #1. Yes, the film-makers need to appeal to the "casual" fan, but it has been the hardcore fanbase that has kept Star Wars alive for so long. While you might not care about the new "expanded universe", we do. While you might watch Star Wars once a year, if that, we watch it fifteen times a year. If you completely alienate us, Star Wars will die simply because do not or are too disgusted to want a new expanded universe that will keep the mythology going. The number one rule of any franchise is a hardcore fanbase that wants to keep seeing more, while balancing just enough new material or surprises to keep it fresh. Just look at any of the major franchises of today: Marvel, X-men, etc. Almost all of the movies that, while they might have money at the beginning, have no lasting impact are the ones in which the wishes and expectations of the hardcore fans have been ignored or subverted. #2. The movie is different from The Empire Strikes Back in one key aspect. When The Empire Strikes Back came out in 1980, it had only one movie and a handful of books and comics to build on. The mythology had not been built yet. While people may have been mad at first, they quickly changed there minds as NEW books, comics, etc. created NEW stories to build on the decisions in Empire Strikes Back. This is not the case with The Last Jedi: The Last Jedi, in many cases, directly or indirectly contradicts almost thirty years of lore that is loved by many. It is highly doubtful, espcially considering that Disney's new EU has been jaw dropping bad to mediocre, that these new stories in the new EU will ever gain the popularity that the old ones did. Even Timothy Zahn, one of the best writers of the old EU, has not been able to save it. Summing up, The Empire Strikes Back worked because it did not have thirty years of lore to discard or change or a hardcore fanbase to offend. The Last Jedi does not have this benefit. Unless episode 9 makes some major changes, The Last Jedi will be lampooned by the hardcore fanbase because it made changes that the hardcore fanbase, again, the reason why Disney is making Star Wars movies, were and most likely will never accept.

Uhmm if it wasn't a real problem, you wouldn't be doing an addendum video discussing whether or not it was a problem. :/ Star Wars might not be falling apart, but it needs to admit that this kind of approach to narrative is a genuine issue.

The guy on the far left is unbearable holy shit

JJ Abrams produced the Last Jedi. I'm pretty sure him and Rian Johnson spoke about the story before the script was created. I think most people are angry because we've worked in our heads the backstory and what we wanted to see happen and since that didn't happen, people are upset.

Dan is spot on as usual. He is always destroying those other dudes.

Star Wars: The Last McGuffin

its not that the movie was different...it's that they missed so many opportunities.

I am a hardcore Star Wars fan and I still really like this movie. It’s not that I don’t see its flaws but I think the people that are complaining are the ones that hate change in general.

There wasn’t a plan in place, but there was an overarching vision from George Lucas. There is no overarching vision now.

Agree with Dan, THERE NEEDS TO BE A PLAN. Would be fine with all the changes from TFA to TLJ if I knew there was a method to the madness but NO. Figure out your trilogy before you go public Lucasfilm.

For the question that was posed at one point in this video, as a casual viewer of Star Wars, I'm on the neutral/bad end opinion end of Last Jedi. There is so much in this movie that seems flawed to me. I, even to my surprise, felt bored in the theater. I feel like a lot of the positives I'm hearing from places like this are so involved in the meta of making this film and such, instead of just looking at it as a movie you just sit and watch after seeing Force Awakens or any of the other movies, without knowing all the behind the scenes production stuff.

They changed compleatly the personality of luke in this movie

Love the discussion, lots of good points and I largely agree with Dan.

Dan was on point. The girl was on the fence. The other 3 didn't know what they were talking about.

Fantastic debate! Glad to see that this level of intellectual argumentation is still alive on the internet

I don't think many of us was expecting these kinds of reactions to the last jedi. Lets go back, once the critics saw this movie and post their review on twitter and then online, everybody was getting hyped for this movie. There were a few critics I notice caution those that there are things in this movie that are going to piss off a lot of star wars fans. I don't think anybody saw that coming. Thursday night onto Friday we saw a lot of mix reactions to the movie. This movie was getting raved reviews which cause a lot of us to question, " Did we see the same thing". A lot of what Dan Murrell said is spot on because yes we wanted something different and new, its how execute it. No movie is perfect, and I notice a lot of critics are acting like this movie is a 10/10. And people trying to use Cinemascore to say " see they love the movie". Look at other movies on cinemascore and you be surprise what movies got an A that people don't like today. Am sure we all know somebody that saw the movie and is not planning on seeing it again because they didn't like it. Look at collider movie talk earlier today, Kristian points out everthing similar to Dan Murrell just talked about here on this show. Its going to be very interesting to see what the drop off is going to look like especially with the other movies coming out this weekend. I liked The Last Jedi and its not a perfect movie. Its a divisive movie, lets call it that!

"This aint your daddys star wars" is pretty much the best way to describe this movie lmao

This was the best conversation about this movie I have seen yet. Thank you all of you. I'm with Joe and Spencer on this. But mostly I'm just glad that you all had so much to say like you really care as Star Wars fans. Sometimes it sounds like you guys wish we didn't have any big star wars or comic book or fantasy movies around.

Anyone see the parallel between the kid with the broom and the girl with the baseball bat at the end of Buffy? The old moving off, the baton moving to the young, the “every girl can be a slayer” meme?

My major complaints with The Last Jedi. 1. Snoke and Captain Phasma are thrown away like garbage. We learn nothing about these characters. 2. The only reason Poe sends Finn and Rose on that stupid and pointless side quest is because Holdo wouldn't tell Poe her plan.Why wouldn't she just tell him? Doesn't make any sense. 3. Speaking of Finn, his fight scene with Phasma was weak. Very anticlimactic. 4. Leia uses the Force in a major way at the beginning of the film, yet she does nothing with The Force at the end of the film. Why set up her Force powers in a huge way if your not going to do anything with those powers in the final act? Also, why is there no scene of Leia and Kylo confronting each other on Crait? It seems very weird Leia and Kylo do not have a conversation in this movie. 5. Rey is put on the back burner in the final act of the movie for no reason. Leia could have lifted those rocks. Chewie could have picked up and rescued everyone by himself in the Falcon. Rey has no arc in this film, yet she is the main protagonist of this trilogy. 6. Luke Skywalker is a coward in this movie, which is 100% not in line with his character from the original trilogy. He faced Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine without hesitation in Return of The Jedi. Also, I don't believe for a second Luke would think to kill Ben Solo. He saved his father, Darth Vader, the second most evil person in the galaxy. Ben Solo is family. Which brings me to Leia. You're telling me Luke is not going to go help and rescue Leia in person? Especially, since he knows Kylo killed Han. I don't see how someone can look past these glaring mistakes. The more I think about this movie the more angry I get because The Force Awakens set up this trilogy really well. So much potential squandered for no real reason. This movie could have been truly special with some tweaks here and there, yet Rian Johnson decided to change or throw characters away for the sake of being "different".

I'm not someone who spends time wondering or worrying about future SW films. I suspect being divorced from any particular plot expectations was advantageous in this case. Either way, Last Jedi got better and better as it went along, I felt. There are smallish things I would take out if I could but 90% of this film succeeded with me -- more than I anticipated. And just, Mark Hamill...he brought ALL the Old Man Luke I could have wanted in this. His performance added a ton. Really, the whole cast felt completely engaged and on point -- more than TFA, I thought.

that left side of the table, i'd hate to be in a conversation with them. stubborn to the end.

I'm a fair weather star wars fan, I enjoyed the force awakens because it was a good movie that set up the series, although it was the same movie as A New Hope. This movie was terrible because there were no stakes, nothing mattered, and there is no set up for the final movie. Poor writing and directing isn't the same as a "twist" or "different direction." This movie may not be as terrible if it didn't tear down everything set up in the force awakens.

I felt pretty frustrated when leaving the cinema because of the Snoke and Rey's parents issues, however watching it again a couple of days later I found it to be a great film. Once my expectations about finding out the answers to those questions were out the window I was able to just sit back and enjoy then film. Looking forward to seeing what they do in episode 9.

Great episode! I was honestly surprised to see that there are so many diehard fans against this movie. All my friends and I *loved* the surprises this movie brought (considering it's Star Wars and Disney).

Great panel guys, i really liked it, keep it up! :)

The 3 guys on the left are blind to what Dan was trying to get across.

Spencer / Joe vs. Dan... on this topic... next movie fight!

Everyone on this panel, except for Dan, are strawmaning the people that didn't like this movie. Really Spencer, the people that didn't like this movie wouldn't have liked Empire Strikes Back when it first came out? What?

The Force Awakens had its flaws, but I never saw it as unoriginal. It was conceived as a way of reconnecting with the fans after the shockingly bad prequels. JJ gave us great characters, such as Rey and Kylo, Poe, Finn and many others. It was a great movie, a great star wars movie. And the apparent lack of originality was not unintentional. Rian came and destroyed everything with a sledgehammer. I could accept a totally new approach in the next trilogy, but this one was special. This was our last chance to see Luke and say goodbye to good old star wars and Rian blew the whole thing off.

It's crazy that they don't quite get Dan's point. Dan's saying, "just put some pomp and circumstance into Luke saying no (make it a big deal with emotional turmoil) vs having him casually and comedically toss the lightsaber over his shoulder." He was not saying they should keep doing what they've done.

I don't think it's fair to say that the hardcore fans hate TLJ. I would consider myself a hardcore star wars fan and I really enjoyed this movie and the direction this trilogy seems to be going in, and i've seen plenty of people on the internet who are also hardcore star wars fans who love it as well. Yes, I think that hardcore star wars fans are the ones who hate this movie the most, but I wouldn't say that a majority of the hardcore star wars fans hate this movie like Dan kept saying.

I was 9 when A New Hope hit theaters. I tend to find novelizations & spinoff material hit or miss and likely to undermine whatever I got out of the original material. That proved true for the prequels as well. That said, at the time I was a prequel apologist, recognizing that, yes, they weren't particularly good, but they didn't deserve the amount of hate they were getting. In spite of it's flaws, I love The Force Awakens and find it to be a very satisfying film overall. I love every character arc in The Last Jedi, and like everything the film did, but as often as they hit me with the unexpected turn, I won't be able to tell if I'm satisfied with the film until I watch it again a year from now. The Last Jedi flipped me on my head and hit me in the feels throughout the film and I am surprised that there is any question about it being a great film. The extent to which TFA took the familiar path and TLJ took the unexpected turn makes it feel to me like it is part of a deliberate plan. And Rey's parentage is a big deal. It is a very big deal that her parents are no one. But she isn't no one, not to us.

Ok let me empathize with Luke... A stranger is coming to my island and brings a lightsaber of my father, the father who died in my arms just after he redeemed himself. So let me grab that lightsaber and throw it over the cliff, so I can get a cheap laugh from this cute girl...

Casually, the guy that constantly casually saying casual was casually causing me to casually think of how casual he said casual.

Translation: Dan is one of “those people” he describes.

okay I loved this discussion, but I love Spencer's hair today even more

the 33:00 mark is how I felt about the movie..the character of Finn was well developed after tfa and now I cant even tell who he is now.

There are a legitimate amount of people who didn't like last jedi and they do speak loudly you Can't ignore that and bad word of mouth always travels it is getting roasted by a lot of people and the rotten tomatoes audience score is 56% rating so that is a little concerning and fans did have a legitimate reason to be pissed Han Luke and Leah after all they went through in the first 3 movies didn't matter and they died in shitty ways so yeah I see why people are upset

This is like a 3 on 1 movie fight. Joe and spencer keeps asking what do we want. The answer is simple: we just want a good movie

I don't think it's a "bad" movie per say but I will admit that, in my opinion, it has a lot of incoherent things in it. While putting the blame on fans for speculating about the pay offs we were sort of asked to anticipate in Force Awakens, isn't completely fair, and not something I could truly bash the movie for, I will say that some of these answers have led to bigger critical problems. Maybe Snoke getting killed wouldn't be an issue, if they hadn't asked audiences to care about how Kylo Ren turned to the Dark side (we still don't know how Snoke got to him). Ultimately I think what turned his death into a fault was that he was effectively denied of ever being a fleshed out character (or character in general) and instead demoted to a plot device to bring Rey and Ren together for the fight scene. Another logic flaw I've found is in the throwing away of Luke's lightsaber as soon as Rey gives it to him. And this has nothing to do with the character but rather what they set up and established in Episode 7. There was a map that was used as a mcguffin to find Luke Skywalker in the Force Awakens. The idea was that we would find the map and go get Luke in order to fight against the First Order. But this doesn't make any sense in The Last Jedi, because Luke state's that he went to Ach-To to literally die. If this is true (it is) than why would he send a map in two separate pieces for people to assemble and locate him? I've heard some say that the map that lead to Luke wasn't sent out by him...but who else would do it? And if somebody else knows where he is...well that makes even less sense. Than of course there is the Canto Bight stuff along with the odd humour and weird part where the First Order should've blasted Finn and Rose while they were chilling right next to the walkers, but those are already discussed enough. I want to say I don't think it's a "bad" movie but I do think that critically it isn't being put through a solid logic test. Personally I think it's a 4/5 or maybe a 3 and a half. And that's just me being objective about the film's quality....now subjectively? I'd be lying if I didn't say how much I felt betrayed by Luke in this movie. I really felt this one and think it kind of altered my opinion on a hero forever...subjectively the movie didn't just kill Luke Skywalker on screen, it also killed what he meant to me. And I think that's a massive commercial problem they will struggle with from now on. It isn't objectively bad (even though one wonders "why" this character was so drastically altered, and not just because of the passage of time) but I can honestly say that Episode 8, for me at least, is one Star Wars movie I will remember as being depressing as hell.

Dan nails so many of my thoughts

Great video discussion, very interesting thank you : )

I fell like You Tube critics don't wanna trash the movie for the sake of losing subscribers and potencial future views

The Last Jedi was tone deaf. Terminator 2, Aliens and Logan are all great sequels with very different tones to their predecessors. The Last Jedi doesn't have a consistent tone within itself. Different scenes felt like they had been directed by different people. Compare Finn and Rose's casino planet scenes to the astral projection scenes between Rey and Kylo. C3PO was a very different character to Darth Vader and they had very different scenes but it felt like they were living in the same universe. TLJ almost felt like a crossover movie. I like the ideas behind TLJ. I love that Rey isn't part of a dynasty and that Snoke will always be a mystery. There were some truly iconic set pieces too. But I found myself too distracted to enjoy any of it. When you take a step back from The Last Jedi it doesn't feel like a single work.

Luke is literally Yoda. Secluded himself. Becomes an old reluctant cranky trainer. And seems so different from the character in other films because he's supposed to. After training Luke Yoda became more like prequel, positive yoda

I like this kind of conversation.

Dan is spot on

I feel u Dan.

Roth and Dan ! movie Fights !

I completely agree with Dan. You can change the game narratively without making it a joke. Luke can say, "I cannot train you" without chucking the lightsaber in a flippant punchline. We can see a extended flashback or force vision or whatever where Rey sees her parents and comes to the painful realization that her parents are not significant and discarded her, without it just being a throw-a-way line from Kylo. It is possible to make the same plot without seeming to disrespect audience expectations. When YOU as the storyteller (lucasfilm and Abrams admittedly) set up the expectations, they require a certain amount of respect and treatment.

Dan did a great job criticizing the movie and direction/writing. Not all people who didn’t love thins movie are unreasonable. Good discussion.

i also totally disagree that you cant please both types of fan, i was not expecting to be catered to in the slightest, but just treat the old fans with some respect and if you kill off beloved characters to move on, then do it with some dignity or some good reasons

Cornet's da MAN...!!!! always been a fan since her IGN days...and even when she used to guest on AMC movie talk... one of my fave U-tube personalities... u go gurrlll....

I like how Roth and Dan are basically the parents of Screen Junkies and everyone else are their rambunctious children.