Is There Such Thing as a 3-Way Switch Loop? What's the Difference Between a 3-Way and a Switch Loop?

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Жыл бұрын

As most electricians know, there are switch loops, and there are 3-way switches. But is there such a thing as a 3-way switch loop? This was a question from one of our viewers. In the latest episode of Electrician U, Dustin digs into this topic to explain how all these scenarios work.
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To understand the topic, lets layout standard switch wiring, switch loop wiring and standard 3-way switch wiring. Something to keep in mind, for ALL switches (or power sources for that matter) power must originate at the source, travel THRU the load, and return back to the source. For a standard switch, we bring the hot, neutral, and ground into the switch box. Then we run the hot, neutral, and ground up to the light fixture and wire. Pretty simple! For a switch loop, the incoming hot, neutral, and ground are run to the FIXTURE box first. The neutral and ground from that cable are wired to the fixture. Here is where we get a bit different. Another cable has to be installed from the fixture box to the switch box that has at least 3 wires. We need to take the incoming hot from our fixture box down to the switch on one of the wires and wire to one of the terminal screws on the switch. The other wire we would place on the other terminal screw and run it back up to our fixture box and wire to our light. Since 2 conductor NM cable and MC cable are traditionally white and black, we need to reidentify the white conductor for the purpose of carrying the current, so someone doesn’t get confused and receive a nasty shock! The last conductor would be for the ground.
3-way switches are a bit different as they are 2 separate locations being utilized to actuate a fixture (or series of fixtures) but with a single power source. The thing to remember here is you bring power IN on one of the switches and OUT to the fixture(s) on the other one. The switches look a bit different also in that there are 4 terminal screws on the switch. One for the ground (which doesn’t change from any other device switch) a common (which is either power IN or power OUT depending on which one you are using it for) and 2 travelers. So, power is brought in on one side of the 3-way where the incoming hot is connected to the common terminal. A 12-3 should be run between the 3-way switches where the incoming neutral is connected to the white of the cable and the ground to the ground. The other black and red wires are connected to the TRAVELER terminals on the switch. On the other 3-way switch, the common screw would be the switch leg going TO the light fixture, the traveler terminals would receive the traveler conductors from the other switch, and the neutral & ground conductor would go up to the fixture (with the hot) to actuate the light.
A 3-way switch loop is a bit different, but the principal is the same. Much like a normal switch loop, we bring the incoming hot into the fixture box. But we need to run a 12-3 type cable down to each switch location. This quantity of conductors is important as we now have the traveler conductors to deal with. So, reidentify the white conductor for both switch locations. On the side that would receive the incoming hot, connect it to the hot from source. On the side that would be the switch leg, connect it to the fixture. In both switch locations, this reidentified white wire would be hooked to the common screw. The black and red conductors would be connected to the traveler screws on the devices and then wire nutted (color to color) in the fixture box. Incoming hot and ground conductors would be hooked up to the fixture as normal! Nothing really different except there are a few other joints that can become confusing!
We hope this has been insightful! Is there a topic you would like to see discussed? Leave a comment in the comment section and let us know! Please continue to follow Dustin and Electrician U as we are constantly updating our content to assist our followers become the best they can be!!
#electrician #electrical #electricity #customers questions #terms of trade #switch loop #3-way switch

Пікірлер: 430

@danieldryden542 Жыл бұрын

As a 30 year vet of electrical work, It is always feed down on the white and up on the black! The reason is that when you see a white tied to a black in the ceiling you know its a down feed to the switch and the black remains a known hot that is hooked up on the device. Down on the white Up on the black!

@ericgold3840 5 ай бұрын

Yep. NEC 200.7 makes it a requirement. I'm a newb apprentice so I can't say for how long this has been in the NEC although it is *really* common to find wires of whatever color used for whatever. It's a wild west out there. First time I've caught an error in a Dustin video. ;)

@pld8993 3 ай бұрын

@@ericgold3840 200.7 also requires that the white be reidentified to a hot color. Not allowed to leave it white anymore.

@larrytoler3266 3 ай бұрын

I agree, besides the code says you can't use the white for a switch leg, It has to be the constant hot if used on a switch

@majorintherepublick5862 3 ай бұрын

You as an electrician identify each wire at their termination points with tape or other means

@JimMenzie 15 күн бұрын

😊😊p

@8fivezero Жыл бұрын

Never have I ever heard this explained so elequently. As a handyman I ran into this working on my aunt's 70's townhouse when I updated the three way kitchen switches. I fumbled with this for 2 hours until I called an electrician to help. It took him about a half hour until he figured out the hot was in the light fixture and was able to wire it properly. Now I understand that this was a three way switch loop.

@matthewfarwell5539 Жыл бұрын

Sir, I have to tell you (from someone who never comments) that I really appreciate your teaching methods. Very straight forward, never condescending. You can teach to complete inexperienced and seasoned electricians alike. As someone who teaches and also is electrician, I must give you credit for this great work. Thank you for delivering content that actually empowers and encourages others.

@mikejohnson3873 Жыл бұрын

I LOVE this content. This dude teaches the basic fundamentals of electricity better than most seasoned electricians can! I wish more people taught it like this. I feel it would definitely help apprentices better understand and therefore, engage more with the trade and to be better workers.

@John_Doe-007 Жыл бұрын

Well that's exactly what I'm doing here. Lol

@lucavalentino2863 Жыл бұрын

I own a 1872 house in the Boondocks that had two major add-ons done, one in the 70s and one in the 80s. After weeks of watching KZfaq videos on three-way switches, you are the first to explain what I found in the boxes-only three wires in each box! All the wiring in this house has that level of craziness and nothing matches today’s instructions or code books. Sometimes, I feel that I am living in a mousetrap, even though everything works. So, thank you for your excellent explanation. Retired now, I was a vocational instructor and very much appreciate the clarity of your presentation.

@dallasarnold8615 Жыл бұрын

I am a retired handyman. Love your videos. On several occasions I came across three way circuits functioning wrong. Flip one switch and the light works. Go to the second switch and nothing happens. Flip the first one back light goes out, go to the second and light comes on. Return to the first switch and nothing happens. I eventually would find the right way to change the wiring to fix it, but perhaps you might do a video showing what is going on for others here.

@mattcrowley1076 Жыл бұрын

I REALLY struggled with reidentification of wires, and 3ways/4ways in general, cant express enough how much I appreciate you clarifying this stuff!!

@qapla Жыл бұрын

Many older homes used lights with a pull-chain for the light, thus the habit of running power to the light. Then when they started using switches, they just ran the loop to the switch, often called a "dog-leg". Today, it is common to run the hot to the switch location and "loop" the light.

@Sparky-ww5re Жыл бұрын

I remember reading somewhere, that back in the 1890s - very early 1900s, the few homes that were electrified would often have combination gas/electric light fixtures as the electric grids were sort of unreliable, and it was thought that electricity was a fad.... better keep the gas flowing, and usually consisted of a pendant light in the middle of a room, with a turn key switch, mimicking turning on a gas light fixture, when electrical appliances first appeared you would unscrew a bulb, then power your toaster or flatiron, etc from the lamp socket, early appliances often had a screw shell attachment plug on its cord. If an appliance cord had a pronged plug you screw an adapter into the socket, then insert the plug (base and cap) Some old timers still use the term plug cap or cord cap.

@Sylvan_dB Жыл бұрын

@@Sparky-ww5re In some places they fished wires thru the old gas plumbing. This is why lamp sockets and so many other things use standard 1/8" pipe threads. A switch on the socket reduced the complexity of the retrofit.

@Sparky-ww5re Жыл бұрын

@@Sylvan_dB interesting, never heard of running wires through gas pipes, only heard of running wires alongside gas pipes, when homes has a combination of gas and electric lighting. that explains why metal conduit like Rigid Metal Conduit has couplings and threaded fittings very much like black iron piping. Ironically I have worked with metal conduit a couple of times , as well as working with black iron pipe adding a gas line for a range during a remodel project so a dual fuel range could be used, and became curious as to why the threaded fittings seem very similar, but never thought to do further research

@markc2643 Жыл бұрын

My house was built in 1960. It has the power running to the switches, and a 12/3 running up to the lamp box with an always hot red wire presumably for ceiling fans to allow the fan to keep running even when you turn the light switch off. I have 4 ceiling fans configured that way.

@Lhostel Жыл бұрын

I have a special situation 😊 maybe you can help. I’m in an old duplex with old wiring. They converted it from fuses to a breaker panel (hybrid) Any way….. 2 lighted single pole switches one at the top of the stairs one at the bottom to control the hallway light. There are only two wires, white and black. How do i get 3 way function out of this horrific setup? I haven’t attempted to locate the hot supply yet. I’m willing to bet it’s coming in from the ceiling as described in the video. I hate how they ran electrical back then

@tylerrobinson5340 Жыл бұрын

This is exactly the issue I have with my house made in 1972, I have been beating my head against the wall trying to find out what was going on with my wiring. Now I know it's a 3 way switch loop. Thank you!

@rickdefalco1676 Жыл бұрын

Hey Dustin so I’m an old electrician I did my apprenticeship in New York and Connecticut in the late 80 and early 90 and we did tons of those and dead end 3-ways and we never reidenified the neutral and I never got called out on it because it was just the normal way to do it. Now I mark everything how times change. Your a great teacher wish there were guys like you back then it would have moved our craft way further faster keep up the great work and don’t get burned out.

@linbrat8275 14 күн бұрын

You were probably the one who wired my home in NYC 1995! 🤨🥰LOL

@SkilasSkilasGaming Жыл бұрын

Thanks dude, I'm a beginner and just 21 years old so having access to videos like this is awesome.

@andrewmarcinko1796 Жыл бұрын

I’ve come across this twice in California and both times I figured it out thru process of elimination. But you made it clear how the current travels. So thank you for being so informative.

@staffs964 5 ай бұрын

Outstanding buddy I spent nearly a full weekend trying to fit new 3-way switches for the Mrs. Of course it was a perfect storm!... I'm Brit! now in Canada, we do it differently, just a DIY bloke, the house is almost a hundred years old with 70s wiring, no re-identification marks, and guess what, it was a 3-way, switch loop! Your video of the 3WSL was the only one I stumbled across, not knowing what to search for! I was at least gratified to hear you say that your electrician was confused. Magic, her switches now work. Thanks

@DrD6452 Жыл бұрын

Before I started watching your channel anything electrical scared me so I never dared touch it and this stems back to a bad shock I got when I was 20. Now I do my own electrical (simple residential in my own places only) and licensed electricians say they like my attention to detail. You're an awesome teacher and this video is an awesome troubleshooting and explanatory video.

@keithbockmon3264 Жыл бұрын

I once owned a house that had a 3-way switch loop, and I never could quite understand what was going on. Your drawing and explanation cleared that up. Thanks for the education!

@blakek1043 Жыл бұрын

I use to get zapped alot by this but yea great explanation.

@dumbeezy5480 Жыл бұрын

That’ll be $3000, sir. Cash or credit?

@Whereswalter1 Жыл бұрын

I must say you have an elegant way of teaching people and it is absolutely outstanding. I did not learn anything from watching your video I knew all this already but was just Amaze how well you are able to explain this to somebody who doesn't know. Kudos to you for your teaching abilities.

@wkdavistx 9 ай бұрын

You have a way of explaining things that makes it so easy to understand. 3-way switching is a complex concept to most people, but it really is simple.

@helmanfrow Жыл бұрын

Hey, Dustin, very good video. You keep getting better at explaining these concepts. The digital whiteboard is a big step up. A tiny bit of constructive feedback, if I may: Even though I already thoroughly understand this material it was a little confusing to me, as a "visual learner", to follow the drawings at times. Use a coil in a circle to represent a lightbulb. The architectural symbol with its four protruding wire-looking things is unnecessarily busy. It took me a second to realize that the light fixture is supposed to be in the ceiling box and not in a different location. Consider using a light grey as a background or outline color to define the boundaries between different locations or areas. Finally, When possible redraw the conductors on the side they're entering an outlet rather than drawing in 'hops'. This will help declutter the image.

@manojelectrowind2161 Жыл бұрын

Really excited to try this feature out! Amazing work !

@bigguyprepper Жыл бұрын

I have a situation where I have to do something similar with 277v ceiling lights. Thank you for making this seem so clear !

@raymond3722 Жыл бұрын

Great illustrations D. You always explain with clarity.

@RandomAxeOfKindness Жыл бұрын

The switch loop explanation is awesome. Years ago, we rented a 1950s house that had a garage breezeway light that could be switched on or off from any of FIVE different switches -- garage, kitchen, porch, downstairs hall, and upstairs hall. We wanted to open the walls to see how the hell it was wired. Now I'm beginning to see how it might've been done.

@danlux4954 Жыл бұрын

Wouldn’t it be a 4 way switch?

@AndreanoCelentano Жыл бұрын

Outstanding content! Thank you so much. You just saved me from wasting hours of guessing a wiring in an old house.

@kendenning3920 Жыл бұрын

My Uncles house has a 3 way switch loop like this. It never worked correctly. One of the switches went bad so I switched it out for him and noticed it wasn’t working correctly. Told me it was always like that. I couldn’t leave it like that lol. Took some time but I figured it out. He was happy after 30 years it was finally working correctly haha.

@lupefernandez6332 Жыл бұрын

I appreciate your work. I have been having problems with my lights since I bought the house. The wires were connected wrong in the same manner as your demonstration. Got it fixed.

@EzRay11 Жыл бұрын

Hey Dustin, Effin Awesome! I’m not an electrician. This is without a doubt the best electrical instruction channel on KZfaq. That white board along with your style of teaching explains these circuits in simple easy to understand terms. Thanks for all you do.

@keything8487 Жыл бұрын

whats scary is john q home owner trying to do, redo these type joints, and hurting themselves, or others......or even causing a fire.

@EzRay11 Жыл бұрын

@@keything8487 Hey Key, John Q here. I may not be an electrician but I do take it very seriously. I have been doing my own and friends home electrical stuff for over 30 years. Admittedly have done my share of head scratching over the years. And yes, I also admit I must have had some luck. Having said that, there’s no shortage of John Q’s like me out there, and videos like this can only inform and help those of us that are not trained electricians, gain a better understanding of what is required and how to do it safely. I wish I had access to information like this back then.

@keything8487 Жыл бұрын

@@EzRay11 i understand, i have seen first hand too many home/store owners get in over their heads (quickly).....and it never turns out well......for educational purposes, i like the video, im just afraid it ight empower some folks (hold my beer types) to bite off more than can be "chewed"....nothing personal against you.....not everyman/woman is capable.

@linbrat8275 14 күн бұрын

My house was built in 1995 in NYC! It has been a nightmare trying to upgrade to a smart home! Every switch in my home has used the white neutral as a hot, even in three ways. The switch loop that Dustin explained is exactly my scenario. Please do a video showing some fixes. I have invested so much money in smart fixtures just to have them sitting around with no solution. Dustin you are the only one I trust to show me the proper way to remedy this Mess.

@SomeRandomOldGuy Жыл бұрын

Thank you. Best explanation of a 3 way switch ever. I think I finally get it.

@tburrelliv 2 ай бұрын

I am not an electrician, but a long time electrical DIYer. I have two comments: 1. I am old enough that I think the "3-way switch loop" was the way I was originally taught how to do 3-way switches! 2. This was, by far, the best white board (non-hands-on) explanation of 3-way switches I have ever seen. The only thing I would tweak is for the 3-way switch loop, the drawing might lead someone to believe that the "travelers" all connect to the light fixture when they do not. For clarity I would draw those outside the light electrical symbol since they connect (like you said) by wire nutting them together in the box. The only wires in the electrical box that connect to the light fixture are the relabeled common (white wire with black electrical tape usually) connecting to the hot side of the light fixture and the actual common connecting to the common side of the light.

@josephgobster 4 ай бұрын

You are a great teacher. Thank you for making these videos. This was def the answer i was looking for.

@user-wh4pp8px2y 8 ай бұрын

This is great information and expertly delivered. Thank you so much. I liked and subscribed even though this is the only video I needed to see. I'm in the boondocks with a 1970s house. Near impossible to get an electrician out here. I've all but broken my brain on what the heck was going on until I saw this and realized what I had was a bunch of 3-Way Switch Loops!! Didn't even know that was a thing! Thank you so much. All problems solved =D

@isaacacosta4496 Жыл бұрын

Im totally gonna look and see if its already a thing, but while i have it fresh in my brain i was looking for a more detailed video on the differences between transfer switch and interlock. again if youve already made then thank you in advance! good vids brother cant wait for the next

@warrensaltzman5195 Ай бұрын

Very well done. Had a very old house and while I had no idea what it was called... I was putting in all those switch loops everywhere as I went around and replace the pull strings with wall switches (2 and 3 way). Good to know I did it correctly ... wasn't so sure at the time!

@1000YearHomes Жыл бұрын

Great use of white boarding. Clear instructions. Really appreciate this channel and happy to subscribe and like.

@joshuawilson1989 Жыл бұрын

Im a visual learner i love how you draw it out and explain im a hands on and the way you teach is 👍..

@bassman5066 11 ай бұрын

I cannot express how helpful this video was. I just purchased a home built in 1900 and the entire home is wired with switch loops and even some 3 way ones. I am working on replacing the remaining knob and tube from the third floor down (adding a sub panel up there) and now that I have a better understanding of 3 ways I think I can get more loads off the old wiring than I had planned. I have 3 floors and each of those has a 3 way hall light that spans both floors with a 3 switch panel on the second floor that can control all 3 of those lights. That 3 switch panel (and almost every other switch in the house...) is ONLY hot wires and I have yet find where it is fed from, so I am now wondering if I can break that circuit up more by feeding at least one of the 3 ways from the other end. Thank you!

@Russianmafia10 Жыл бұрын

Another switch loop is if you need to add a switch to an existing one switch circuit with the hot in the switch box, is where you change the switch to a 3 way, then run one 14/3 wire to your second switch, and have the white return to the original switch box, and connect the original leg to the light to the white return from the second switch

@Sparky-ww5re Жыл бұрын

I've always called this a dead end three way. you can also do the same thing with a single pole switch loop.

@randomcuriosities8441 Жыл бұрын

Yep done that plenty of times

@Merescat Жыл бұрын

Perfect explanation! Great video!

@bahbarino4479 Жыл бұрын

👏🏻 truly clearly understood, avoiding the 😵‍💫…everyone not in the know, should keep this video for reference not if, but when you stumble onto this in your work adventures.

@CarlosSanchez-qw5eb Жыл бұрын

How are you doing DUSTIN, I just wanted to thank you for your excellent teaching and great talent that you possess to explain step by step how to resolve the problem and to identify the problem THANKS FOR YOUR GREAT PATIENCE, QUEENS NEW YORK SAY HELLO 👋......THANKS AGAIN

@layz_her2673 Жыл бұрын

Ty for this. So informative, I’m gonna show this to my workers

@heroknaderi Жыл бұрын

I really enjoyed this one i have done a single pole switch loop before but not a 3 way one this showed how it;s done I really appricciat it.

@jopo6388 Жыл бұрын

I've occasionaly come across this in older homes here in NY and leaves a much more crowded ceiling box. If you already had it wired with a single pole switch loop it is much easier to add a 3 way by simply running a 3 wire from the existing single pole switch to the new 3 way. Its still a switch loop running through the added 3 way and changing the single pole to a 3 way. Much cleaner and in fact can be made into 4 way, 5way etc by daisy chaining additional switches with additional 3 wire.

@JohnThomas-lq5qp Жыл бұрын

In my 50 plus years as a sparky never heard of a 5 way. You can have two to whatever you need 4 way switches wired between two 3 way switches. Had a gadget nut that we had to install outdoor flood lights from 5 locations in his big house. Best location was right next to his bed slightly higher then top of end table so he could turn on luminares without getting out of bed. Had to add a fancy timer, photo cell and a 4 position switch to select what he wanted to control Linares. Fourth position was bypass to keep bulbs lite while replacing them.

@johnburnitin1027 Жыл бұрын

I did a 3 way loop on my house, when I built it. The main reason I did that was because the wiring was getting pretty busy in the walls. Took a little head scratching to figure it out, since I have never done one of those before but it worked out great.

@dracula3811 Жыл бұрын

On the switch loops, i see the white being tied to the hot more frequently and the black being used as the switch leg.

@edwardsmith7131 Жыл бұрын

THANK YOU very much for this video! I managed to reverse engineer / forensically deconstruct this exact setup in my PacNW house that the original long time owner had rednecked his electrical over several decades and 5+ additions and renovations. It's nice to see how it was originally intended to have been installed; it explains why his janky/kludgy repairs were done that way. I may not have even been a certified electrician but I'm not afraid of an NEC code book and have been bringing circuits up to modern safety standards as I find his installed fire hazards. Except the THREE breaker box situation with a "main" breaker panel and two mini breaker panels. The first mini breaker box was fully Zinsco parts but only the left side was used ... so they covered the punched out right with duck taped cardboard. Oh: it also may or may not have been wired in on the street side of the meter. I hired a professional (the 2nd most expensive and well recommended) to make this problem safe and legal. I can deal with science but not the law. The original owner just seemed to add copper until the lights came on.

@timothysears6970 9 ай бұрын

Thanks for a clear explanation of this!

@Flapswgm Жыл бұрын

You are a VERY good instructor.

@jefferylebowski7355 Жыл бұрын

You mentioned the remote control 3 way devices in the beginning. I recently used one of those and realized that the wired unit draws power all the time to sense the remote switch. If it is wired as a switch loop, this will result in the light receiving a very small amount of current, even when off. For an LED fixture, this results in a small amount of light. The 2020 requirement of having neutral in the switch box solves this, and now I "get it".

@ranger178 Жыл бұрын

i have that problem with a motion sensor light switch light glows when in sensor mode but is off if you turn selector to off

@LogenNineFingers43 Жыл бұрын

Actually you are a bit mistaken. That issue is not due to it being a switch loop. Because regardless the switch is hooked into a Hot and a Switch Leg. What's actually happening is that your light doesn't provide enough Load/resistance for the switch. The electronic switches actually NEED a load to function. Because to keep the electronics running inside, It needs a complete circuit. Using the light as a path to neutral But there is a minimum load of about 15-30 watts I believe If it is below that, the switch functions, but the resistance of the light isn't high enough to eat up that stray voltage coming through from the switch Some switches have a Neutral wire or terminal to alleviate this issue. But another solution is to A: install higher load lights or more of them. Or B: lutron makes a little minimum load capacitor that you wire in either at the switch or in the fixture box to the switch Leg and Neutral, and it supplies a little load of it's own to take care of that stray voltage

@AlwaysBeSmart674 6 ай бұрын

Cool you included the 3 way switch loop on my 3rd year of being an electrician had a switch issue in my house and it was wired this took me a min to figured out what was going on. House was built in the 70s and built by an electrician so all kinds of crazy shit going on.

@w1swh1 Жыл бұрын

Very informative. As a friend once said to me " its very intuitive when you know how" 😀

@bowmanjeff8 Жыл бұрын

I had this same setup. I was simply trying to replace a light fixture. I noted extra wires in the ceiling box. I knew that it I simply disconnected the wires from the fixture and reconnected the same to new fixture all would work. And it did. However I drew a simply diagram to understand more as I knew that the fixture was controlled by two three way switches. After shutting off the power I did continuity tests to determine which wire was going where. And the two three ways were in gang boxes with others 3 ways for different fixtures. I did not hang the new fixture until I understood the flow. And I kept the diagram I drew so I would understand in the future if I changed out the fixture again. Side note: switch loops are a great example of why you should always turn the circuit off at the breaker. Turning off the switch would not stop the fixture box from being hot. I’m a diy homeowner. So I try to research as much as possible. And draw pictures and think before touching anything in a dangerous manner. Thanks for an excellent video.

@josephnicolas2158 Жыл бұрын

Amazing video as usual! Thank you

@tpurves2006 Жыл бұрын

Great content, downside is if you want “lighted” switches, or if you want to replace them with “automation” computer controlled switches. But again great style and presentation of content.

@treyhart6861 Жыл бұрын

I love how you explained all this, but I would love for you to blow everyone's minds and diagram out a FOUR-WAY switch for when someone wants three, four, five, ten switches for one light!

@tonywagner4836 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the explanation. Under 2020 (I think-may have been earlier) switch boxes are required to have a neutral ot be able to be retrofitted with a neutral without cutting finished material. Just something to watch out for.

@Sparky-ww5re Жыл бұрын

based on research this was in 2011. there are certain exceptions, one being three and four way switches, if the lighting layout is such the the lighted area is visible from all switch locations, a neutral shall be required at one of the locations. Meaning you can legally wire a dead end three way, or wire power to the first three way, then to the light, then a 14/3 from the light to the second location, and still meet code. Keep in mind that the AHJ may be more stringent than the NEC and require a neutral at every switch box.

@tonywagner4836 Жыл бұрын

@@Sparky-ww5re Thank you for the code clarification.

@davidsoulsby1102 Жыл бұрын

@@Sparky-ww5re From the UK. why do they stipulate a neutral in a lighting switch box please? its not used 🤷‍♀

@Sparky-ww5re Жыл бұрын

@@davidsoulsby1102 great question, glad you asked! The reason for the neutral in the switch box requirement, is because nowadays, there are many types of switches that require a neutral to function. For example, certain dimmer switches, particularly Magnetic Low Volt and Electronic Low Volt when used with certain LED drivers, timeclock switches and Wi-Fi smart switches that connect to your home Wi-Fi for the purposes of home automation, all require a neutral to work. In older homes, say built before 2000, but especially in the 60s and 70s, it was common to find switch boxes without a neutral available, since electronic switchs did not yet exist, and a neutral was never needed, and in certain wiring layouts it used less material and/or labor to wire power to a light fixture, then drop a 14-2 or a pair of 14/3's down and give the switch the number of wires needed. later on it was found that homeowners wanting to bring their home up to the 21st century, would begin adding switches that need a neutral, but because there was not a neutral available, would use the ground as a neutral, putting unwanted current on the equipment grounding conductor. Hope this explanation helps.

@bradvols 6 ай бұрын

I so needed this video re-wiring my 1953 house and was having a hard time wrapping my brain around things not being in switch boxes

@grahamvaneck8906 Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure what the NEC says on the subject, but in the Canadian Electrical Code it says if you use "premanufactured cables" (NMD, BX, whatever) for switch loops, you have to use white as your "unswitched conductor" (aka, hot) and black as your switch leg. Also, in 2018 it was added that any switch for lights had to have a neutral present in the box (even if it's not being used, it's for if somebody wants to add a dimmer later that requires a neutral), so now you have to use 3-conductor instead of 2 for switch loops. I haven't seen or heard of a 3-way switch loop so far yet in my short career in electrical, but it's good knowledge to have for sure. I love these theory videos and learn a lot from them, thanks Dustin!

@johnthompson5409 Жыл бұрын

Great Job, Thanks

@Jeremyisyourhandyman 5 ай бұрын

Before this awesome explanation, I wired up the lights and the outlets accidentally to turn on and off together. But obviously, the outlets need to stay on at all times, and the switch is only supposed to turn on the light. Excellent explanation.

@fes988 Жыл бұрын

Dustin, another great video except..... 200.7(C)(1) "If used for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor with white or gray insulation or three continuous white or gray stripes shall be used only for the supply to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to the outlet." from the NEC copyright NFPA. I love you videos and even use some of them in my 4th year apprentice class. Keep up the great work.

@NipkowDisk Жыл бұрын

That one almost bit me (NEC 200.7(C)(1)) last week when I was installing a stairwell light controlled by 3-way switches. Sure glad I looked it up, otherwise there is no doubt I would have used the re-identified white wire as a return!

@samjohnson5770 Жыл бұрын

Man I use you back early years as a electrician in THE 70'S The first time I ran into a 3 way switch loop I was working on the house that was wire in knob and tubing long story short I figure out what going on You did good job explaining how a 3 way switch loop works Yes in today their many historical home that still wire in knob and tubbing

@PERFECT-ly7li Жыл бұрын

Here in Belize that is the method used to distribute power to light switches and receptacles. The source comes from outlet boxes on the ceiling then to everything else. Nice video!

@rodolfovesga979 Жыл бұрын

Great video Dustin keep them coming back lol 😅 Thank you 🙏 🎉😢

@kevinbloomquist2637 Жыл бұрын

This is another way of doing the same thing in a retrofit. Lets say a switch loop already exists and you have 12/2 in the switch box. It is possible to just run a 12/3 from the existing switch box (b1) to a new switch box (b2). Black from 12/2 is connected to common terminal of 3-way in b1. Black and red from 12/3, between the two switched, are attached to the travelers. White from 12/3 (re-identified) connects common terminal of 3-way in b2 to white from 12/2. Please note all whites are re-identified in both boxes. The only benefit for this method is there are less connections in the fixture box which are usually over crowded to begin with. However this does require b1 to be large enough to support the extra 12/3 wire.

@kevinbloomquist2637 Жыл бұрын

Dustin, the way you explain 3-way, switch loops, and 3-way switch loops, shows how great you are as a teacher. Thank you.

@bowmanjeff8 Жыл бұрын

I completely agree

@Sparky-ww5re 5 ай бұрын

Yes, what you described is known as a dead end three way. Wired my share of these in the past during renovations. While keeping in mind that as of 2011, a neutral shall be available in the switch boxs to facilitate future installation of electronic switching devices that require standby power, one of the exceptions to this requirement is with 3 and 4 way switching such that the lighting is visible from the single or combined switch locations, a neutral shall be required at one switch location. All that being said, depending on the jurisdiction, you might not be able to legally add a three way switch to an existing single pole with a 2 wire switch loop, and some inspectors are stricter than the NEC and require neutrals at all locations regardless. So be mindful of that.

@SerenoOunce 3 ай бұрын

When working in older homes with fiber insulated wires and plastered walls these switch loops are very common. Many original fixtures only had a switch on the device itself. Lucky to see a actual wall switch to have been added at all over the course of their many renovations.

@JCWren Жыл бұрын

I've got several 3-way switch loops on my property (1985 house and out buildings). As I understand it, these don't meet code for new work because they don't provide a neutral for a smart switch. And that's exactly what I want to do, but without that neutral (or really violating code by using the ground as neutral for the smart switch :) ), I can't replace them. And to make matters worse, these are in areas that aren't accessible unless I start cutting holes in the ceiling.

@JohnThomas-lq5qp Жыл бұрын

You seldom have to bring such things up to present codes unless performing major renovations. Hopefully you still can purchase devices that utilize the ground wire for probably less then a milliamp of power. We were told at an IAEI continuing education class that one of the reasons for requiring a white grounded conductor ( no such thing in NEC anymore as a neutral ) was that in cases where people had a lot of them feed from a GFCI the slight imbalance between the hot black conductor & the white wire would exceed the 4 to 6 milliamps needed to trip a GFCI. If switches are in open basements or in conduit then a white wire is not necessary because it's easy to install one in the future.

@joenguyen4092 4 ай бұрын

Thank YOU 👍👍👍👍 This is an excellent lesson 👏👏👏👏

@jamm6676 Жыл бұрын

Bro I love the way you explain things. 🤙

@broderickcamel1701 Жыл бұрын

badass video, keep them a coming pls

@stegra5960 Жыл бұрын

In the UK we use the loop system as standard. Well, we did until recently when the need for a neutral at the switch became the norm. For the 3 way (we call it 2 way) it's possible to connect the constant and switched lives to the two switched terminals of one switch and then run a 3 core (+earth) cable directly from that switch to the other switch with one conductor connecting the two commons together and the other two connecting to a switched terminal each in either switch. Sleaving must be used to reidentify conductors but cable with two browns (live/live) is common.

@TheForgottenMan270 Жыл бұрын

I have dealt with many switch loops and 3-way switch loops, but never knew what they were called. Now I know.

@mikekennedy3173 Жыл бұрын

Great video. My son has the same 12 /2 wiring in his house no grid. Had no idea when I installed new dimmer when I found just white and black on the line and load side of the single pole??? Switch loop?? Excellent lesson

@jeepsaround Жыл бұрын

Utah small 50s-60s homes with basements, with about 1600-2000sf total, used switch loops, running first to the single light box, then separate wires, one to the four receptacles, and one to the light switch. For small 11ftx11ft rooms with one ceiling light this makes sense in order to isolate each room to one circuit. I completely re-wired the house in order to add a bigger service panel, get a main circuit breaker, add ground wires, and add more circuits. The tight layout of the house and all the load bearing walls made the most sense to keep most of the rooms the same size. It also seemed to make sense to keep the circuits in this loop to isolate each room to one circuit. The two larger rooms and kitchen were wired conventionally. Not everyone has a fancy new large home 3000sf+ and 1960 isn't that old. I kind of chuckle thinking that code (and electrician advertsising carring most about taking your money) makes it sound as if an original 1960s home will burn up or kill you at any moment and that the older fabric insulated NM copper wire is surely rotted, leaking, and arcing. All of mine was was just fine, likely less of an issue in Utah's dry climate.

@mail06513 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video!

@morty5085 Жыл бұрын

As an American living in the UK working as an electrical design engineer(I'm the guy you hate haha) , switch lives is mostly what I'd used here. However I tend to work on large commercial projects and they tend to use ELV switching instead. Great videos!

@scotts2k Жыл бұрын

Great video, such an educational channel

@HelloKittyFanMan. Жыл бұрын

Thanks, that was interesting.

@dankelley9361 Жыл бұрын

Great job identifying a somewhat confusing concept!

@felipea1844 Жыл бұрын

As a future Electrician Helper ... I thank you for this video.

@plandl1 5 ай бұрын

Last year I came across an interesting loop. I didn't know it was a loop at the time. Situation: hallway, three single switches (one on each end and one in the middle). Someone decided to upgrade the switches and instead of replacing the old yellow 3-way switches with new white ones, they installed 3 single-gang switches. I had conductors on the grounds!!. This mess had wires connected together that shouldn't have been and some capped off and yet no breakers were tripping. So I removed the switches, pulled all the wires out and identified them with continuity checks. So it was actually a 4-way loop. It took a couple of days to wrap my head around it, since the power came in from the light fixture in the middle of the hallway but I finally got it all working. Man, what a learning opportunity!!!

@running_rich Жыл бұрын

Thanks for another great video. Whenever I am taught something I need to know how it all works and why. That is how I easily remember the lesson. This is exactly what you do so well. Could you do a video explaining how some devices require no neutral, yet obviously get voltage to operate their internal electronics? Like exhaust fan timer and smart dimmer switches requiring no neutral connection to operate. I have always thought I should only use these types of devices requiring neutrals, even if I have to repurpose a wire or run a new one to the box. I have a lot of smart dimmer switches installed but only use the version requiring a neutral.

@kenbrown2808 Жыл бұрын

some of those devices used to run their "neutral" through the fixture they controlled, which worked okay with incandescent lights, but can cause ghosting in LED bulbs, or degraded device function. the next generation uses the grounding conductor for their neutral, which, of course, can cause conflict with GFCI or AFCI protection. most of those will have a separate neutral and ground conductor, so they can be combined on the ground if necessary, but are best connected to the neutral.

@davidsoulsby1102 Жыл бұрын

Very interesting how different places have different ideas. I'm in the UK, the switch loop as described here is how is how it's always (rare exceptions) done, a ring from the fusebox to the first light then looped to next then the next etc until the last goes back to the fusebox. At each light a 2 core cable (twin and earth) goes down to a switch with the red (live or hot) to the common connection and the black (neutral) to the sw1 connection and marked with red tape, at the light box/chamber the red is connected to live incoming ring and the black with red tape is connected to the fitting live connection. All neutrals are bunched together. What is being called 3 way on the video is what we call 2 way and instead of having wires from the light to each switch we have 1 to the first sw then from there a 3 core cable (3 core and earth) goes to the second switch. Hard to describe but think of it as like the 3 way switch loop here but missing out the light fitting. 3 way switching here is where you has as described above but with an intermediate switch between switch 1 and switch 2, think of a crossover switch. You can put in as many intermediate switches as you want and just call it by how many switches are there eg 5 way 6 way..... To surmise you have a ring of light fittings, each fitting has 1 cable to a switch, then if its 2 way you just run a cable from the switch to the next switch and so on, Radials you could describe them as.

@randomcuriosities8441 Жыл бұрын

FYI on a switch loop, the hot is always sent to the switch on the whites and then back on black that way if you see a splice with a bunch of blacks and one white you know that's the hot going to the switch. Also maybe this is a regional thing, but red and white are travelers and black on one end is power and the other is a switch leg. White travelers are almost never identified. Not trying to contradict what you're saying. While what you are saying makes sense, it's not always that way.

@hayansupakane77 Жыл бұрын

Some regions are interpreting 22 code as saying whites can no longer be phased. So the 12/3 would always be a TTN.

@Sparky-ww5re Жыл бұрын

that's how I was always taught to wire a switch loop as well. in on the white, back on black. Easy for me to remember as I'm a big AC/DC fan🙂 FYI the 3 way switch loop demonstrated in this video does not comply with the NEC as of 2011 because there's no neutral in the switch box, but nonetheless educational because you will frequently come across this configuration during renovations and remodeling projects

@samspade5648 Жыл бұрын

Hahahaha, for 40 years I have only ever seen it done as Dustin has demonstrated, at least here in the midwest. It is done as best practice for remodels...but properly re-identified whites let's you figure it out quickly regardless of the wiring choice made for legs or the feed.

@samspade5648 Жыл бұрын

In the Chicago metro area, you find this type of switch loops mainly in old pre 70 homes.

@randomcuriosities8441 Жыл бұрын

@@samspade5648 I've been an electrician for 24 years. I spent most of my life as an electrician in the South, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, North Carolina and South Carolina. It's almost always "back on black" a term we use to describe a switch loop where 14 or 12/2 has sent hot down on white and back on black. H 2 whites going to a fixture doesn't make sense or look right. Maybe out west it's more common but in these old houses (and some buildings) in the South it's not that way. I was merely pointing it out so some apprentice doesn't think it's "always" that way. In 24 years I've learned nothing is "always". Usually maybe... I have seen lamp cords inside walls where a handy home owner did his own splices lol.

@fredbrown7954 Жыл бұрын

A brilliant video 📹. Do it again 😀

@edisona.543 Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@Lhostel Жыл бұрын

Great video! Thank you for your time and energy. I love your style and appreciate your delivery. I have a special situation 😊 maybe you can help. I’m in an old duplex with old wiring. They converted it from fuses to a breaker panel (hybrid) Any way….. 2 lighted single pole switches one at the top of the stairs one at the bottom to control the hallway light. There are only two wires, white and black. How do i get 3 way function out of this horrific setup? I haven’t attempted to locate the hot supply yet. I’m willing to bet it’s coming in from the ceiling as described in the video. I hate how they ran electrical back then

@ottoroth9377 Жыл бұрын

In the older days a loop switch was the norm. Even today many electricians are using the loop switch method. But I have ran into the hot & neutral is ran to the switch box!

@tonyadams1141 6 ай бұрын

Excellent video

@frankmarques8292 Жыл бұрын

Great video was having a hard time trying to understand how to hook up a 3 way WIFI switch with no nutral wire in both boxs, THANKS TO THIS VIDEO I now know whats in my two 3 way box switches for the basement lights , back in the day someone used two 14/3 wires in each switch box the colours are black, red, white, whey used red & white as travlers, the 14/2 power wires are in a junction box in the closet ceiling, the hot black is together with the 14/3 black on the upstairs switch, the black wire in the basment switch box is the load wire to the light wire, and the 14/2 white nutral wire in the junction box is together with the white wire for the lights . Hope this makes any sence, unfortunetly i was not able to hook up the 3 way WIFI switch because of no nutral wire, i did hook up a Leviton DSL06 dimmer switch, But the switch has a low humming sound coming from it, lights turn on and off, and dimmer works fine, Just dont know why the low humming from switch ?

@jthornca Жыл бұрын

I'd be interested in knowing how you would install "smart" or "IR Motion" 3 way switches in this the 3 way switch loop scenario. Most of the smart or motion switches on the market require a neutral wire which doesn't exist in the switch box. I discovered this, much to my dismay when installing smart switches in a home I purchased which was built back in the 80's. Excellent video as per usual. I started watching you when I embarked on this journey to update my new home. You are an great resource.

@kenbrown2808 Жыл бұрын

in the 3 way switch loop scenario shown, you would reconnect the loop wiring - each 3 wire loop wire would revert to hot, neutral, switched. then each motion sensor switch would be hooked up like a single pole, and the both red (switched) leads would connect to the light. best to have a contactor model of motion sensing switch for that, rather than solid state, since some solid state switches don't respond well to a backfeed.

@ninehundreddollarluxuryyac5958 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for this. My house was built in the 60's when they sent copper to Vietnam and put aluminum wire in houses. I wanted to put in a socket, assuming I could get a hot wire from the switch. The result was lights flickering when using the socket. Now I know It was the hot just run down from the ceiling powering the vacuum through the lightbulb.

@manuelluna370 Жыл бұрын

Awesome video.

@TheWmiller8 Жыл бұрын

Thank you for explaining a switch loop. I have a light switch in my hallway that turns on a light in the room on the other side of the room. The switch in the room controls one side of a receptacle. I am looking to make the switch in the room control the light and the switch in the hall change to be a receptacle. And hope to make the receptacle in the room both hot all the time.

@philipstaite4775 Жыл бұрын

I very much prefer the "modern" way of wiring hot through the switch to the load. I've worked on some older stuff with switch loops and the white and black wires connected together just looks so wrong... Great explanations!

@davidgagnon2849 Жыл бұрын

The three-way switch loop is what I encountered in a carport. They had two three-way switches and wiring that I had never seen. I don't remember why I was having to work on it, but I ended up running new wires and connecting it the conventional way. I wish I had seen this video first. 🙂

@haerfgvbag7050 Жыл бұрын

good explanation

@Ikantspell4 Жыл бұрын

My tips. 1)Remember the rules are different now than in the past. You will have a neutral and ground to new switch boxes but It wasn't always that way. 2)3 ways are easy- travelers connect to each other- the ends go to either power or the device. 3) make sure te box can hold all them wires and connectors. If I see a shallow box with 7 wires in it I'm going to cry. 4) always Identity hot or potentially hot wires. For my sanity I have the handy tapes of all colors at the ready. 5)never trust existing wires were properly identified and/or as you're expecting. You get an instant fault and or a nice zap if you're careless. 6) confused where a wire goes? Just do a continuity test using extra wire or invest in a signaling system. Sometimes guessing ain't worth it and testing is faster.

@randallthomas5207 Жыл бұрын

A few years back we came across a five way switch loop, that a renter had replaced one of the switches in. I took a full day to figure it out and get it wired so it worked. We had to find an easel with a 3X4-foot pad of paper on it, set it in the room we were trying to figure out, and diagram the whole mess before we figured it out.

@MicahFunk Жыл бұрын

Drawing out a schematic really helps put things into perspective. Did you disconnect all the switches and the light to track down what went where?

@MichaelFord Жыл бұрын

same as everyone.. thanks. I knew the mechanics of them but didn't get the understanding until this video. I watched another a while back when you guys taught me that there is code for the number of wires that you can have in a box. wouldn't you break that code since normal 3-ways at the box only 3 conductors: hot, common and ground. with the 3-way switch loop you would now have 11 if you include the ground for all of them: source: common, ground, hot for each leg:(hot, common, traveler, ground)x2