ISO Invariance (ISO is Fake Follow-up)
Рет қаралды 104,005
5 жыл бұрынWatch the original ISO is fake video at sdp.io/Fake
Check out the Fstoppers follow-up to our "ISO is fake" video sdp.io/FISO
Grab Tony's technical Presets at sdp.io/Preset
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@paulcaskey 5 жыл бұрын
Every time he said "ENHANCE!", I expected him to solve a murder mystery.
@stans5270 5 жыл бұрын
Tony is trolling all his critics.
@lylestavast7652 5 жыл бұрын
shamelessly ! haha...
@KarenBaker616263 5 жыл бұрын
I SO confused ~
@PossMcLeod 5 жыл бұрын
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@socratesvela8285 5 жыл бұрын
😂
@skyecommander2169 5 жыл бұрын
😂I see what you did there
@elram2649 5 жыл бұрын
Rim shot! 😄
@lylestavast7652 5 жыл бұрын
well played Karen, well played...
@bulgariastan 5 жыл бұрын
I follow Tony like he's the New York Yankees in these KZfaq photography controversies. They throw everything at him and he bats it away.
@jerbear75 5 жыл бұрын
@jp Mariners could make him look silly?
@bulgariastan 5 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMaranophotography "No one cares about Micro 4 loser thirds"- Camera Conspiracies
@bulgariastan 5 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMaranophotography Says the guy with Lumix all over his content.
@bulgariastan 5 жыл бұрын
Joe Marano eeehhhhhhhh.......oooooooookkkkkkaaaaayyyyy.
@mengshun 5 жыл бұрын
As of today, he's more like the LA Dodgers and just keeps smacking homers.
5 жыл бұрын
You should make more videos like these, talking about the more technical stuff
@JoeMaranophotography 5 жыл бұрын
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@kodycheyne 5 жыл бұрын
I’m actually really enjoying these technical videos. 👍🏿
@Razor2048 5 жыл бұрын
Same here, I prefer a more tech focus to things.
@kamilkp 5 жыл бұрын
Me too! Totally!!
@gaborandnova4871 5 жыл бұрын
Me too, Tony is the best when it comes to camera related stuff! :)
@andyhi99 5 жыл бұрын
Yeah, we need series called Tony's Tech Tuesday/Thursdays.
@gaborandnova4871 5 жыл бұрын
Totally agree! I am checking this channel every single day, hoping to see a new tech vid, I wish there would be a new tech vid daily...
@JohnDrummondPhoto 5 жыл бұрын
Never try to out-geek a committed geek. Thanks, Tony. Your turn, @Fstoppers!
@abeambo123 5 жыл бұрын
They should keep trying so that we get more of these awesome videos! :)
@chromaticvisuelle 5 жыл бұрын
That was actually very interesting! After 7 years doing photography, I didn't know about this "ISO drop gap" ! Thank you !
@osliverpool 5 жыл бұрын
I didn't know about it after 52 years! :-)
@alexdukay276 5 жыл бұрын
The lesson to learn here is to light your shot and not get confused by all the ' experts'
@ziginox 5 жыл бұрын
Julien, the dual-gain ISO is a relatively recent development.
@tsoupakis 5 жыл бұрын
I am pretty sure none of us actually did 😂😂
@lylestavast7652 5 жыл бұрын
@@ziginox Yeah -I have nikon versions d70, d700 and D750 and they don't exhibit it in any range I'd be likely to use at all anyway... Generally speaking I prefer to screw up my images with poor focus and not have to rely on the firmware/chip to disappoint me.
@kalali462 5 жыл бұрын
Tony, I've read and viewed, including photo samples, a fair amount on ISO invariance. Yet your illustration is quite the most lucid exposition I've found.
@andrewbennett7786 5 жыл бұрын
I hope, for my sake, English is your first language
@FatForWeightLoss 5 жыл бұрын
Wow! Those signal to noise drops are REALLY interesting!
@amdenis 5 жыл бұрын
Keep doing technical, as most other otherwise knowledgeable YT channel providers often get the technical details wrong, while you are almost always correct. Thanks.
@MyMomSaysImSmart 5 жыл бұрын
“They did a really...good job of it.” Just say what you’re feeling Tony, I heard that microscopic pause 😂
@Tom_Swiss 5 жыл бұрын
Battle of the egos..
@testthewest123 5 жыл бұрын
Well, you call this "manners" or even civilized behaviour.
@PhotoBob 5 жыл бұрын
😂😂😂
@DylanHaskin 5 жыл бұрын
Tony, I love how unaffected by critics you seem. You don't seem to take things personally. It's really refreshing.
@andyhenderson8757 5 жыл бұрын
Not sure if sarcasm or........
@DylanHaskin 5 жыл бұрын
Andrew Henderson not sarcasm.
@DarrenD777 5 жыл бұрын
@@andyhenderson8757 How could that be sarcasm? I mean, Tony did actually seem at ease about the whole issue and the challengers to his assertions in the first vid. Score another one for Tony. :-)
@RedTick2 5 жыл бұрын
I love these videos, especially when people talk crap on other channels instead of digging into what was discussed. Fstoppers was probably the best/most fair. Well deserved victory lap! All kidding aside these videos are really what breaks your channel away from all the others. Would love to see more of these kinds of videos with one to one comparisons. And my second fav are the videos where you two are drinking and answering questions. Chelsea is a hoot!
@GrantSR 11 ай бұрын
Finally, KZfaq guessed right about what video I wanted to watch next. This is exactly the video that I was hoping to see after watching your old video about ISO being fake. Sometimes it's your old, "evergreen" "nerdy" content that i appreciate the most.
@dirkverest 5 жыл бұрын
Going for a higher iso does give you slightly less dynamic range. So it becomes a noise vs range battle. What do you guys prefer? Less noise, less dynamic range. Or more noise, but better dynamic range?
@DJLsbVapes 5 жыл бұрын
I was the same, when I was a kid, used to take everything apart to understand how it really works ;-)
@chasingluminance 5 жыл бұрын
Nice job Tony! You tackled the issue very well, and I’m now obsessed with geeking out over those iso charts
@TomFlink 5 жыл бұрын
Great info Tony. Understanding read noise at different ISO's is super useful. Thank you!
@steveg2417 5 жыл бұрын
Tony - Thank you so much for this. I have the “ISO Setting/Read Noise” numerical table downloaded for my Sony A7riii to my phone for quick reference (until I get it memorized). Really enjoyed this discussion. This will give me a great deal of flexibility when shooting in different light conditions. For instance, when the sun is going down and I’m at ISO 500 but my shutter speed is not quite enough to stop the action that I want stopped; now I can jump to 1600, have slightly better quality, and move up the shutter speed to get the stop motion image I want (assuming that I have the depth of field that I desire). Options are good, I used to think that ISO had a linear relationship, now this opens up so many more options for clarity & creativity!!! Noise for my Sony A7riii: 160 = 640 200 = 800 250 = 1000 500 > 1600
@jeremyFNP 5 жыл бұрын
I love when you make these videos! I learn something and the comments that people leave you are comedic relief lol
@DarrenD777 5 жыл бұрын
LOL. Right? LOL.
@FlyingHazel 5 жыл бұрын
I stopped following f stoppers when they were arguing whether a photo with the moon in front of clouds was real or fake.
@kalali462 5 жыл бұрын
And I acquired valuable facts and insights from that Fstoppers discussion.
@QuickReviewShow 5 жыл бұрын
Love how you do your video presentation
@alexandreblanchet8856 5 жыл бұрын
This is the kind of stuff Thom Hogan is testing in his books (on Nikon cameras), which can be pretty useful if you want to get a better understanding of how your specific camera works, and how to capture optimal data. Tony is doing a great job at explaining all of this. Honestly, I think Tony is at his best when he gets to explain to a general audience something that's very technical and geeky. A lot of times, I feel like I already have a very good understanding of what he talks about, but it's always good to see how he explains it, which can make the topic even more intuitive. Great job Tony!
@wer78889 4 жыл бұрын
Love this kind of technical video! Really learned something. A question here: Why is there a noise drop at certain ISO?
@SuperLobstertail 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks again Tony! Great examination and explanation.
@AykutArgun 5 жыл бұрын
This is a super useful video. There are bunch of nerds who want to know about these things! Big thanks Tony!
@ThomasO2 5 жыл бұрын
Thank goodness you finally mentioned dual ISO. That was really bugging me last time.
@arunbalakrishnan8978 5 жыл бұрын
I'm also enjoying this kind of technical video, great Tony. Expecting more.
@boonedockjourneyman7979 5 жыл бұрын
Honesty is your greatest strength. Please keep citing sources and explaining what you know v what you think. Your are a rare guy.
@smoogles 5 жыл бұрын
I like the way the BMPCC4k handled the chart in their manual, it shows the same chart but with the exposure limits and illustrates that changing iso mainly changes the midpoint (within the dual gain extents)
@nitaipadakamaladas4873 5 жыл бұрын
Always surprised how deep you can dig in such a topic, now all is clear!
@atbsigma 4 жыл бұрын
I think this is a great topic. I’m also a computer professional and a bit of a geek... and I have been into a couple online spars with those who are rigid about ISO and it’s effects. The fear is about grainy photos and high iso... folks thinking ‘just lower the iso and it lowers the grain’. This shows that there’s a lot more to it than that and it depends on each digital camera.
@Augnos 5 ай бұрын
I knew about certain ISO settings being cleaner, especially at full stop settings like 100, 400, but I didn’t realize that it was significantly different at lower ISOs for my camera. Also, this and the ISO is fake video really explains the methods you did in the “ISO doesn’t cause noise” video, which confused me and a ton of other people when you would raise the exposure to match the pictures in Lightroom. Watching these videos ahead of time would have made it make so much more sense. Glad to know that my camera is much noisier at 200 than 400, now! Thanks for these videos!
@eduardoribeiro383 5 жыл бұрын
Tony, It was very nice. This is a video for the ones curious about the machine. Its not intende to impact ones photography. So, haters, please refrain and let us, who are interested in the inner workings of the machine enjoy it.
@scallen3841 5 жыл бұрын
Fan boy alert
@kalali462 5 жыл бұрын
I certainly intend for ISO invariance to affect my photography-by expanding my dynamic range up to some 6 stops.
@scallen3841 5 жыл бұрын
Digital camera's have been on the market since 1997 or so , yet in all these years they still haven't fixed the iso issue .
@RealRaynedance 5 жыл бұрын
Having an A7III, you directly showed where my camera is ISO invariant. That's why after seeing Dave McKeegan's video on the topic too, I started ignoring ISO 500 entirely and sometimes even ISO 400 in the name of shutter speed. It's not often I'm even at this ISOs in the first place (usually at 100 or past 800), but it's helpful to know.
@EduardodeRegules 5 жыл бұрын
Great video Tony! 👍 Thanks, very useful, since this is an everyday parameter we change in our cameras.
@RossMcLendon 5 жыл бұрын
Good follow up. Would be good to really drive home how this relates to dynamic range.
@DarrenD777 5 жыл бұрын
YES!!
@defenderstargate1447 5 жыл бұрын
The Photons for Photos site also includes dynamic range charts so you can see that.
@RossMcLendon 5 жыл бұрын
@@defenderstargate1447 good to point out, it is a helpful resource for that.
@Thebrodelicious 5 жыл бұрын
Good video Tony. That website is very useful. It might be an idea to do a video on dynamic range tradeoff using the same website. I could imagine some people noticing the big drop at say, 800 iso for noise on a dual gain sensor, and deciding to use that as their "base iso" without factoring in dynamic range.
@GlennPedersen 5 жыл бұрын
You finally got everything correct, and corrected/pointed out the different of the test fstoppers did. We'll done Tony.
@YourMomSimpsForOPNsense 5 жыл бұрын
You guys are at your best with these informational videos!!! Loved the car analogy
@luiztosk 5 жыл бұрын
This was very inspiring! Did the test and saw some ripple on the histogram, with frequency proportional to ISO and perceived noise, gotta dig deeper.
@Vidmir69 5 жыл бұрын
I've not done any of the tests but have started to employ ETTR to good effect. I shot some pics at 6400 ISO and the images had hardly any noise - not exactly what you are talking about, but my point here is to expose correctly - as far to the right as you can - and what happens is you reduce the S/N ratio and thus noise in the darks. Shooting on a Canon 6D. Comparing these results to shooting at 100 ISO but underexposed and getting bags of noise all over the image. Metre right and push to the right.
@DaleSheltonsPage 5 жыл бұрын
I love these. As a kid, few of my toys remains in one piece long. Some of them returned to their retail glory, but many were learning experiences, or hangar queens.
@MobiusCoin 5 жыл бұрын
This is HUGELY practical. I remember when I was first getting started in photography, I was shooting an amateur fight event in a place with horrible lighting. The action was fast so I needed my shutter speed up. But I couldn't go too far up because it would just be pure black. As a result I had some underexposed blurry action shots. The only ones that looked half way decent were the guys before they threw a kick or a punch, not during the action itself. Had I known that I could shoot like that and then just push my exposure in post, I would've had so many more usable shots.
@MsIrrealis 4 жыл бұрын
but the whole point of this was, that it (usually) does not matter if you increase iso or do it in post. So during your events you could have just upped your iso... doing it in post would have no benefit
@MobiusCoin 5 ай бұрын
@@MsIrrealis Yeah, I'm saying I didn't understand this and why having this knowledge is so practical. I was under the false assumption that ISO at shoot time vs boosting it in post were different. And as a result I had blurry images, had I known better I would've prioritized the shutter speed more.
@pk2hitman47 5 жыл бұрын
Tony, ignore the haters, I love technical videos. And many more people love them. Keep them up :D
@chrisogrady28 5 жыл бұрын
I love these videos tony, and I have been sticking with my D750's for so long mainly because I can shoot everything at ISO 100 (single band native ISO) and adjust gain in post, able to recover ridiculous highlights and create incredible dynamic range in single shots. Doing this in situations where HDR isnt possible (moving subjects, events, weddings) gives a unique look that clients want to pay for. A feature that should be touted on new cameras much much more.
@rhythmace1 2 жыл бұрын
I can't count the number of times I shot a 3-frame AE-bracketed set of a high-contrast scene with my D750 to HDR-merge later, and ended up deleting all but the "underexposed" frame because it ended up looking just as good as the 16-bit HDR merged TIFF after pushing the shadows. I never expected that when I bought it, and I've always loved that about that camera because it's so useful. I agree this should be a better-known feature because for all the talk of "ISO-less cameras" it's clear this is far from universal, and a great many consumers wouldn't even realise the significance of this very technical-sounding metric.
@tedmanasa907 5 жыл бұрын
Actually very interesting, I’ll have more control over my astrophotography results now. Thanks!
@What_Other_Hobbies 5 жыл бұрын
Ok. so for my D850, I should either shoot below ISO 150, or above 400 based on photonstophotos. Great info.
@MrSamoDude 5 жыл бұрын
Also check their dynamic range charts, you may reduce noise by dropping the iso but you'll probably also loose dynamic range.
@filipschlembach9388 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video! If you were to enjoy digging deeper I’m curious why there aren’t more than two amplifying circuits built into modern cameras resulting in more “bumps” in the graph and lower high-iso noise. 😊
@TheDominicballard96 5 жыл бұрын
You're so nerdy and I love it!
@mtollin2002 5 жыл бұрын
Good follow-up. The first video did seem a little off. But you have more than clarified the details here. Thank you!
@brucekraft744 5 жыл бұрын
I love this nerd stuff! Thanks, Tony. The Photons to Photos site is extremely interesting.
@blueckaym 5 жыл бұрын
Hi Tony, very interesting video - especially the part about the dual-gain. Wanted to ask - have you applied any noise-reduction in Lr ?
@clifftotten7609 5 жыл бұрын
Tony, you are on to an amazing topic that so many people totatly mis understand. Can we all stop saying "ISO" and just call it what is REALLY is...."gain". Also, the term "exposure" only applies to shutter speed and aperture. "ISO/Gain" happen AFTER exposure is COMPLETED. What are we exposing image sensors to? LIGHT! Gain is NOT light. If your photosite is 50% full, 1 million "ISO" will not change that photosite's 1/2 full status!
@skyecommander2169 5 жыл бұрын
Fascinating stuff Tony! Thanks for sharing!
@PhotoBob 5 жыл бұрын
Whoa you went HUGE nerd on this! Right now FStoppers is like “fuuuuuuuu we should probably sit this one out”
@JuanYusteDelValle 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for doing the X-T2 and saving me the time 😅
@jack002tuber 5 жыл бұрын
Aliens have abducted Tony and left us with this guy
@billzidis2656 5 жыл бұрын
Photons to Photos proved that for the Fuji XT3 best iso to use is : From ISO 160 until 320 The noise increase slightly but after 320 the noise is worst than ISO 800. So it's good to avoid any numbers between iso 320 and 800. From 800 to 1250 iso noise is similar. So your usable iso's will be 160 until 320 or 800 until 1250 and over that the noise always increasing. I did test my camera and that was true,couldn't believe it
@SuperDineshdanny 4 жыл бұрын
I own a a73, the noise difference between image at ISO 640 and ISO 500 simply blow me away. Dual Gain stuff is new to me and will be thing to consider. Thanks Tony..
@johnvalk 5 жыл бұрын
Appreciate your comment on the cal mill photo during the live travel program
@BlokeOnAMotorbike 2 жыл бұрын
the sweet spot on my EOS 2000D is around 1630 (indicated) ISO, I usually shoot at 400 so might be time for me to start to really play with my shutter speed and aperture settings...
@Chubby_Hubby 5 жыл бұрын
Maybe it is time to change our vocabulary. For instance, new light emitting diode (LED) light bulbs now lists Lumens and their Watts equivalent. Lumen is the actual measure of light (that is produced by the bulb) but there needs to be a translation to the Watts-equivalent that we are all used to for incandescent bulbs. So maybe we need to learn new terms like signal-to-noise ratio and signal gain, while also showing the equivalent in photographer-speak, like stops of noise and ISO (respectively). It reflects the actual physics of semiconductor sensors, while also bridging to the 100 year old nomenclature created in the chemistry-based film days. As we transition to using both sets of vocabularies, it will become more comfortable, and also make more sense. Thanks for these and other videos, Tony and Chelsea.
@GrlldChs 5 жыл бұрын
I never leave comments on KZfaq, but this video is so good that I had to tell you! These technical videos are my favorite, might be because I’m an engineer :D
@ernestchew88 5 жыл бұрын
The ISP drop gap is great info. I now know the lowest ISO on my camera is not the best, and 1 stop higher is better. Thanks!
@tamasvarga67 5 жыл бұрын
Great info I think it cleared up any confusion.... unlike dxo the photonstostop charts are very useful and practical.
@akesq01 5 жыл бұрын
Yes, curious minds would like to know. Thanks, Tony and Chelsea!
@lanceevans1689 5 жыл бұрын
TOTALLY WORTHWHILE! Just like knowing how a clutch/shift works on your car, allows you to drive it better. Knowing some of the things you revealed (some things I had no idea about!) certainly helps. At least those of us that don't live in AUTO world. Thanks.
@andyhenderson8757 5 жыл бұрын
Push gas, go, every car is the same..... Great analogy
@jorellegates4099 5 жыл бұрын
I really like your technical videos...and even if something you said wasn’t 100% correct 100% of the time, it’s still fun to talk about. Any chance you could find out how to determine a safe reciprocal rule for using electronic shutter?
@stephanc7192 5 жыл бұрын
Amaxing video! Enjoying it Love the technical info
@ahnafakeef 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for putting in the research on this, Tony! Actually learned something new about ISO. Photons to Photos will be an amazing resource in researching sensor performance for me, so thanks for that as well! :D
@savagefrieze4675 5 жыл бұрын
It’s all about how the hardware is programmed, those pesky ones and zeroes. Your explanations are good.
@alphanimal 5 жыл бұрын
HAHA Tony said I.S.O. @1:15... GOT 'EM! 😁
@mike_lambert 5 жыл бұрын
I'm glad I didn't do something else instead of watching this. After watching I went to Photostophotons and looked up the noise chart for my camera - then opimised my auto ISO settings, thank you!
@dragone7e 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the follow-up video Tony! One question tho, does that works the say way when shooting video? Meaning using ISO 640 rather than 500 for lower noise??
@beatboxerjonasz2 5 жыл бұрын
yes
@alphanimal 5 жыл бұрын
Very good informative video! Though imo you should have mentioned ISO invariance in your "ISO is fake" video too. Thank you for clearing this up!
@RockstarBruski 5 жыл бұрын
This is very interesting info!. I'm learning my new Panasonic gh5 and wondering how does ISO effect my camera when recording video? Is it the same as when shooting pictures or does it use a different gain system for video? I'm used to my Canon XA10 video camera which is easier to understand as i knew anything above around an 8db gain setting would create visable noise.
@mcunner 5 жыл бұрын
Lower iso basically tends to capture a bit more colour detail but the noise is similar
@wRicky89 5 жыл бұрын
So if it is too dark to use base ISO. It is better to underexpose, so the histogram should be on the left. You don't risk to loose any information about the highlights and you know you can raise shadows without loosing anything too. Different thing if there is enough light to use base ISO. In that case it could be better to expose to the right, to have lower noise in the shadows.
@thevisi0naryy 4 жыл бұрын
So here’s a question. Say I’m shooting a small event, and I want to stay in Aperture Priority so I can be fast paced. If I’m in auto iso, what should I set the min maximum at? If there’s a huge difference on the a7iii between just iso-500 vs 640, and I set the minimum to 640, I miss the opportunity to set the minimum to iso-100 for situations where there’s enough light. If I set the maximum iso too low, now I have to worry about the camera forcing the shutter speed too low.
@elisamuelcuadrado2144 5 жыл бұрын
Crazy! I actually noticed more noise in an image from a shoot with 400 ISO than one with ISO 800 on my A7iii a few days ago and was wondering why. Now I know
@richardastearman7689 2 жыл бұрын
Good job. You are learning. Astronomers have known this for years. Look up photon to electron exchange. The camera counts electrons, not photons. Yes, photon kick of the electrons that are counted. When you turn the ISO up the number of photons to electron ratio is read differently. So when you have a low photon to electron ratio you have the limit to how high the ISO should be set. One photon to one electron counted.
@benjones5799 5 жыл бұрын
This is good. You confirmed everything I saw with my a7ii
@christianjackson 5 жыл бұрын
Hahahahaha god I love these Tony follow up videos
@azizurrahaman2101 5 жыл бұрын
Very interesting information. Thanks for sharing.
@cillyede 5 жыл бұрын
Well done!
@cosmogang 5 жыл бұрын
I love photons to photos. Guess that makes me a nerd, but I've learned a lot from that site.
@hope121107 5 жыл бұрын
Love your stuff. Please keep it up
@babooobie 2 жыл бұрын
hi tony, love your videos. this is a very interesting topic!! My question is if i shoot slog2 on a7c and the base iso is 500. Does that mean i should bump it up to 640 for lowest noise and sacrifice a little DN or 500 really is the new "100" iso when shooting slog and should stick to 500? many thanks!
@DennisKapatos 5 жыл бұрын
When it comes to the technical side of cameras and photography, it just doesn't get any better than Tony.... on KZfaq. There may be folks who have even more information but they don't have KZfaq channels. FStoppers... please.
@andyhenderson8757 5 жыл бұрын
Trash
@KidRichmond 5 жыл бұрын
Don’t worry about your haters. Those F stopper guys are a bit smug with their content delivery and you’ve always contributed value to the photography world.
@eei6255 5 жыл бұрын
Absolutely Fabulous Video Really Appreciate!
@mahoneytechnologies657 4 жыл бұрын
Great more info and test, I feel my Nerdness becoming ever more interested! :-)
@tsoupakis 5 жыл бұрын
WOW.. just thank you. After owning myb6d for like 6 years or so, suddenly make sense why I find iso 2500 so suitable. It is really kind of funny but also a really good bit if information for looking on a new camera..!! Thank you again :)
@FredericPhotography 5 жыл бұрын
Useful. Thanks Tony !
@mauriziomauricone 5 жыл бұрын
Looked up the Fujufilm X-Pro1 but instead used X-E1 and was pleasantly surprised!
@emzogh 5 жыл бұрын
Again a very good explanation ! Thanks Tony!
@johncox5839 Жыл бұрын
Really love when people use facts to win arguments
@yavori4013 5 жыл бұрын
If you have such camera, you can shoot on much faster speeds in A mode for example. What I mean - If you compensate -3 stops in A and shoot moving objects you will receive 3 stops faster shutter and much better chance to have a picture without motion blur. This can be a difference, between unusable and usable photo.
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