Experiments with Position Control of Pneumatic Actuators

Experiments with Position Control of Pneumatic Actuators | James Bruton

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I enjoyed using Pneumatic Actuators for the Transformers build, so I thought I'd experiment with more accurate positioning and control so they can be used in other projects. I'm using an Arduino and a feedback pot to so how we can maintain pressure in both sides of the cylinder so we can hold and modify the position.
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Пікірлер: 386

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

What sort of (giant) robot could I make with this?

@AIengine 5 жыл бұрын

Some movie monster robot , like this 1:10 Full function remote control monster Mechanical robot vehicles from movie “ taijqi “ , Two robot arm builds by computer precision cutting stainless steel and aluminum, not only reconstructs the actual mechanical function accordance with excavators in reality, the details also decorated to reproduce the Steampunk style in movie design. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Y9iXhKmFua2XcYE.html

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

I thought about a T-rex! maybe something that can walk...

@AIengine 5 жыл бұрын

@@jamesbruton how it made here : kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nbKSnqmqy768nGg.html , I made a lot project for theme park too , thanks you for Inspired me a lot on your work .

@Kah7654 5 жыл бұрын

Don't do it. With pneumatics it wouldn't work out well. With hydraulics it may work but it's probably to expensive and to complicated. For small and middle sized robots (up to human size) BLDC motors are the way to go. And there are lots of things possible in this area which may even turn out useful. Why not for example try to build a useful robotics plattform which can move around in- and outdoor and then attach various actuators to it to do stuff?

@DoRC 5 жыл бұрын

Something for the porn industry?

@TomStantonEngineering 5 жыл бұрын

James! This has given me an incentive to try some more pneumatic projects!! I might be bugging you for a parts list soon. Thanks

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

Hi Tom, sure let me know. Most of it was from eBay ;-)

@oliverdowning1543 5 жыл бұрын

Tom Stanton isn’t that basically like your air powered car or engines but on a larger, more expensive scale or should I be looking out for amazing new things on your channel?

@AcrimoniousMirth 5 жыл бұрын

Ah, eBay... the friend of many a hobbyist!

@markferbert52 3 жыл бұрын

I have four bimbas for sale

@jayzo 5 жыл бұрын

Boston Dynamics? Nahh... Bruton Dynamics.

@joneisenhower1297 5 жыл бұрын

you're mistaken in implying its the volume of each side of the cylinder that determines the force it can output. It is the surface area being acted upon, so the plunger side with the rod on it has less face for the pressure to act upon.

@ojsh_ 5 жыл бұрын

yes this is true. Force = Pressure x Area. Same pressure on each side of Piston, but less area on underside of Piston due to Piston Rod

@JohnDlugosz 5 жыл бұрын

Yea, and adding more pressure increases the force. I think the limiting factors are how much pressure the cylinder can hold with the shaft extended, and the compression load strength of the extending shaft.

@Asphyr 5 жыл бұрын

He doesn't really have control over else than the amount of pressure in the tank in this test. Important to know if he codes a system to take the surface area into count at different positions though

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

@@Asphyr The valves are only on or off, so no amount of coding will help me at this stage.

@Asphyr 5 жыл бұрын

@@jamesbruton I was thinking you'd need more "on" -time if it's carrying a load, but since you measure the position itself it kind of does that automatically.

@MrWilliam932 5 жыл бұрын

well, one thing you might have your hands on is a 5/3 valve which is made especifically for double-effect cylinders and the middle position keeps all the vias closed, so maybe this could be a better solution. other thing is that you sould put the regulator in 9:43 at the output of both tanks if you are going to use both and put a manual valve between both of them to balance them out, the regulator is made to lubricate and filter the air from the tanks, It keeps the cylinder from deteriorate because of the particles and also makes it run a bit smoother because of the oil. there are ones called "Quick Exhaust Valves" wich make the cilinder return faster if you need it, also they sometimes come with sound mufflers. I hope you found this useful, and I cant stress this enough, Put the regulator, It will keep the system nice and clean, that is a MUST

@shravan1981 5 жыл бұрын

Wow, I always had these questions and felt the need to test... this setup gave a great amount of insight into the working and pros/cons. Thankyou

@AlsHackShack 5 жыл бұрын

This is one of my favourite videos of yours James. Really interesting, thanks for sharing.

@tobynmanthorpe 5 жыл бұрын

You should attach this to an a-frame ladder, put ratcheted wheels (that only spin one way) on the legs and watch it go.

@RedSkyeDragon 5 жыл бұрын

Industrial systems that use big actuators (of many kinds, usually pneumatic or hydraulic, sometimes motor driven) often have String Encoders attached. Essentially a high accuracy encoder with a spring-loaded drum attached, and a string around the drum. As the string pulls out, it rotates the drum/encoder, and as the machine retracts, the spring maintains tension on the string and the encoder does its job in the other direction!

@MonsieurFlange 5 жыл бұрын

Uploaded just in time for my train to work!

@charliecarpenter2840 3 жыл бұрын

Such a good video, clear and precise. Help move my project design along significantly.

@nerdydev Жыл бұрын

Very helpful, thank you.

@GALEFORCETV 5 жыл бұрын

Hi James, Inspirational man. As soon as I saw the speed of movement on OpenDog I though of pneumatics. My first experiments used 1 cylinder and 4 on/off solenoids rather than the Y solenoids (and a car tyre for air). All worked like your test except I could close all the solenoids so the cylinder didn't creep. I built a knee joint so just use a 10k pot in the angle for feedback. Then I discovered the Y solenoids, half the number of valves and drivers but picked up the mysterious creeping. Thanks for the solution. I now have one-ways on order plus more valves, cylinders and a compressor! Brilliant channel. Regards Steve

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

thanks - I'll have another video coming up on this soon

@olivier671988 5 жыл бұрын

once more, this is very very interesting !

@nuklearwanze 5 жыл бұрын

Nice project. Btw there are fully integrated high-flow cylinder positioning systems on the market that do exactly that and can be controlled by a PCL. These are usually way cheaper and much faster than servo actuators. These systems often include pressure sensors so you can even apply a set amount of force.

@ahhegab2 5 жыл бұрын

Nice one, mate.

@BenMitro 5 жыл бұрын

Mr. B - you grock! Thanks for the vid and info.

@azertazert98 5 жыл бұрын

It would be interesting to use 3 state valves, it could allow a more precise control and lower the number of switching required. (Eg: lock one side while adjusting the other)

@christopherleveck6835 5 жыл бұрын

I bought an entire pallet of this stuff from a government auction. I still have no idea what to do with it all but I was told by the guy I outbid that I have EVERYTHING I need to make it all work except an air source.... I've got a nice big compressor in my shop though so problem solved. I just need to think of some epic project. I've got literally hundreds of different sized and types of cylinders.... Let the games begin. You have once again inspired me to build something crazy.

@Marci124 5 жыл бұрын

This makes me appreciate those Festo demo animals even more.

@techtastisch7569 5 жыл бұрын

Hi james, you should really take a look at a 5/3 way valve, they also offer a locked position. Those that you have used are 3/2 way and are really only intended for use with single sided cylinders

@MrSwift2568 5 жыл бұрын

You could also control speed in code by creating a virtual input target that chases the actual input. Every loop of the code you would use some logic off the input pot to increment the position of the virtual input. Then use the virtual input as the target for the cylinder. The down side to this is that the cylinder would actually be pulsing to get to a position instead of going directly to it.

@Karlemilstorm 5 жыл бұрын

This is well worth all the Patreon money! This is fantastic

@SpencerPaire 5 жыл бұрын

For proportional control, you could have a cam on a servo squeeze the tube. Sort of like a peristaltic pump, but it wouldn't revolve all the way around, just squeeze the tube in one spot. By rotating along an axis parallel to flow, you also wouldn't have to worry about the pressure trying to push the cam out of position.

@richardbloemenkamp8532 5 жыл бұрын

There is a nice MIT article on the use of pneumatic actuators. They used it in a legged robot but complemented it with an electrical motor in the hip. You can search the net for "Model-Based Trajectory Control of Robots with Pneumatic Actuator Dynamics" by Ryuma Niiyama

@manrajbhachu8242 5 жыл бұрын

Amazing

@trashsmither2960 3 жыл бұрын

You Just saved my life THANK YOU! :))

@TroyWuelfing 5 жыл бұрын

Have you considered an air over hydraulic system for this? Fill the cylinders with oil and use air for the energy in the system. Also many cylinders have position indicator options you could hook into your Arduino. Keep making cool stuff!

@hfe1833 3 жыл бұрын

Finally I'm waiting for this kind of project,if you could make similar like this but smaller e.g. 1/3 of this cylinder size ok

@Gallardo6669 5 жыл бұрын

People want so see james bruton building a lot of stuff for fun, nobody sees his capabilities and skill level to use it for real useful stuff. He should build devices and live enhancers for disabled people. This industry overcharge their patients anyway by far. A great way for james to do something helpful for the humams and make himself really really valuable to the world.

@rayz7484 5 жыл бұрын

I'm always watching ur videos

@Kaxlon 5 жыл бұрын

Hi James. Most linear actuators (air) have a small magnet inside. There are small hall sensors that attach to the outer body on a circular part of the extruded body. Those sensor only give end to end indication. Thought I drop that info here for future reference. Keep up the good work! =)

@mrj.o4556 5 жыл бұрын

So satisfied

@fuzzydragoncosplay955 5 жыл бұрын

I was actually looking into something last year that might be useful to you for this project. Servo controlled ball valves, and they are relatively cheap to make you just need a servo that has the torque to turn the valve. There are a few designs up on Thingiverse that you could look at to see if it would suit your purposes for restricting outflow.

@arbjful 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the great video, just what I was looking for. What's the advantage of pneumatic over electric ?? I am looking for a pneumatic based system that accurately positions a liner carriage at set positions, we now do this using stepper motors. Can the same result be achieved using pneumatic actuators or sliders ? What about the cost ? Will such a pneumatic system be cheaper than an stepper motor based system??

@QuantumFluxable 5 жыл бұрын

This is pretty cool! You should look at the SOMA project by TU Berlin, they got some neat pneumatic robot hands that they're working on.

@Eleven7D7s 5 жыл бұрын

This is so cool!!! Could you set up two of these systems with the ends facing each other ( --->

@Huderson Жыл бұрын

very cool! gained one more subscriber

@WilliamDauncey Жыл бұрын

Hi James, great video! Are there any commercial systems/kits available for this sort of thing? And how would you measure the force output of the actuator?

@LittleRainGames 5 жыл бұрын

Would these be good for an injection molding machine? I just bought a hydraulic cylinder but im thinking this may have been easier, and possinbly cheaper approach.

@LesNewell 5 жыл бұрын

Take a look at push fit fittings instead of barbs and Jubilee clips. They are quick to assemble and you can get a wide variety of non-return valves, flow restrictors etc in push fit - pneumatic Lego. I use them a lot for various projects.

@Pentross 5 жыл бұрын

If you jam some cloth or cotton wad in there before restricting the flow you’ll make it a lot quieter

@willwise6197 5 жыл бұрын

Have you thought about trying to make an LVDT (linier variable differential transducer) for this setup? The basics are simple, three coils of wire in a half or full bridge setup. They're better for promotional control as there is no contact unlike pots, so they don't wear out.

@Morkvonork 5 жыл бұрын

In an Robotics Book I have they use pneumatic actuators that run the cylinder against retractable pins in linear ways to position things. Though that is not proportional.

@codemakeshare 5 жыл бұрын

Instead of no-return valves, you could use 2 valves on each side: one to let air in, one to let air out. That way, you could control the pressure in both sides of the cylinder independently, and actively control the amount of compliance. It would also (theoretically) give you a way to do "regenerative braking", pushing air back into the reservoir when you backdrive a cylinder (e.g. landing after a big jump... ;) )

@deepray7400 5 жыл бұрын

You could add a FCV (Flow Control valve like needle valve) combined with PCV (position control valve like 5/3 valve) for much better control I also recommend to use “automation studio” to simulate your system forehead There are also capacitive proximity sensors you could use for tracking position

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

Yes it's all a bit hacky at the moment

@truetech4158 5 жыл бұрын

It would be possible to create a pressure cylinder that has a built in tank(s) in one or more segments of the cylindrical structure, and the 2 pressure valves could also built into the casted structure. This would allow for keeping things super light weight and also the placement of pressure sensors for more controlled accuracy within the walls of both cylinder/combination tank. Jim, it can be done!

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

maybe, but you won't store that much air in there, ideally I need a much faster compressor to keep up with the bore size of the cylinders

@aznmonkeyboy.9 5 жыл бұрын

Would it be possible to add hall sensors at the ends of the piston for distance measurement?

@icghost2 5 жыл бұрын

Thoughts: You could return to a single split source and place the regulator in front of the high side to balance directional pressures..your multiple air sources wont stay balanced, throwing any attempts to calibrate. Second - how much directional strength do you lose when this "braking" mechanism is active?

@pauljs75 5 жыл бұрын

If you wanted something crazier, you'd could look into electro-hydraulic actuators. Something like a tilt-block pump (variable axial piston) moving the fluid with the direction and rate it pumps controlled by a servo, and powered by a constant speed motor. Then that can be directly connected to the piston it actuates. Trades some efficiency for a lot of available force in a compact size. I think that's the kind of system being used by many fly-by-wire aircraft, and it can be made more redundant than the older style hydraulics with lines routed everywhere. Springiness or damping can be done with a bit of extra valves like bypass, and perhaps adding an accumulator tank to the system. Might be interesting for robot stuff.

@robjones3132 5 жыл бұрын

I wonder if it would be possible to put a return line into your holding tank so as the cylinder releases the air it goes back to the tank rather than wasted?

@tando6266 5 жыл бұрын

I love it when the undergrad assumption of non compressible cannot be ignored.

@bonkuschan 5 жыл бұрын

Hi James, Thanks a lot, You saved my life, you are a genius in this!...Make a hopping T-rex or like Handle from BD!=)

@das250250 5 жыл бұрын

When you push against the cylinder are you programming the Arduino to let out the air on the side of the force to increase the force against the hand motion?

@EitriBrokkr 5 жыл бұрын

Have you ever heard of the "air over oil" concept. Just another thing that might be worth looking into

@elleschanzer7284 4 жыл бұрын

how do you connect the pneumatic cylinder valve to the relay and then to the arduino

@hownot2mill561 3 жыл бұрын

Hi James would you think it possible to control both a hydraulic slew drive and a hydraulic cylinder simultaneously with an Arduino? controlled by joystick rocker buttons.

@mattdeshane2435 4 жыл бұрын

James Briton Thanks for the video. I have question re manual controllers. I have a press that actuates when two buttons are depressed. The shaft fully extends and then releases automatically after a short period of time. I would like to add a controller to the press so I can control the position as the shaft extends. Can you suggest the correct type of controller for this? Thanks. I have limited knowledge of pneumatic controllers.

@brycehartwick 5 жыл бұрын

you should definitely do an aliens powerloader lol hacksmith is doing one so it would be cool to see both youtubers versions of it. If you do build one, I will absolutely be looking forward to watching!

@maxtorque2277 5 жыл бұрын

V2P (voltage to pressure) proportional valves are available, that turn a 0-10v signal into a 0-10bar pressure output. But they are expensive. A sensible halfway house would be to just use 4 on/off valves , mounted with two at each end of the cyl, as close as possible to minimise the working volume, and use two of them as "fill" and two as "empty". This would allow the controller to independently modify the pressure in each end of the cylinder, and provide a much better fail safe situation (loss of power = all valves shut). A smarter control system, which now has 16 states (4 valves = 16 states) could easily use say 4 rules to determine the best operating order for the valves etc

@prokletiuser 5 жыл бұрын

9:15 it is same pressure, but rod takes some of area. So efective area of rod side is smaller, force is smaller, and it goes to one side.

@MarkleZephire 5 жыл бұрын

I'm wondering if you can't recycle the compressed air somehow? Into a rubber bladder? Less load on the compressor and you may only need a single tank.

@sickle40 4 жыл бұрын

what is the model of both control module? Thank you

@hohl1mol153 5 жыл бұрын

Hey James i tryed to build a Exo Arm with the pneumatic muscles. Bitte ich didn't found the right componets. So can you make a list or a tutorial how to make a pneumatic muscle (with Amazon links or other links)?

@tavitlertritsumpun7160 5 жыл бұрын

Before jumping deeper into project, I suggest you study What is available in the pneumatic components. There are valves that will operate both in and out stroke within one component (5/3 valve). Also there are other gadgets built into the cylinder to feedback the relative position of the action (pushing or pulling). The easiest problem of the noise as the air is pushed out can be achieved using silencer. Unless you want to use what you already have available and not invest in any more component, then the solution may be impractical like 2 air tanks. Because of the weight involved in compressor and /or engine to run the compressor, doing moveable project is rather less feasible than stationery project.

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

Pretty sure the solution is check valves like I said...

@mikeydk 5 жыл бұрын

What you need, is a 5/3 valve with two solenoids. With no solenoids powered, it will be closed, power one solenoid, and it will change over to allow air to flow into one port, and release air out of the other. That air you will pass through a bleed valve so you can control the speed of the cylinder. Always control the speed of a pneumatic cylinder by restricting the air flowing out of the system. If you denergize the solenoid again and powers the opposite, the cylinder will move in the opposite direction.

@kpare 5 жыл бұрын

There are pneumatic speed controllers that are very cheap and since they are controlled by a screw it should be relatively easy to interface. Also there are pneumatic mufflers that cut down on the sound.

@Al-yc4cn 5 жыл бұрын

Try dry ice or LN2 with a warmer tank to convert/ gassify... less space, higher energy density?

@eightyeight3694 5 жыл бұрын

what about oil pneumatics? I'm sure there would be less play and you could use lower pressure also you can probably find or make a good pump to run off li-pos to power the pnuematics

@dieselphiend 4 жыл бұрын

I can't help but think of sim chairs when I see big actuators like that. How'd I'd love to have one that could do things like flip me upside down in a split second!

@Giblet535 5 жыл бұрын

Hydraulics don't compress much, are very controllable, and the force is through the roof. Kubota makes some very nice compact diesel engines that are made specifically to drive a hydraulic pump. Any robot that can pick up a car and squeeze it into a ball is a proper robot.

@frankjames1955 4 жыл бұрын

lets say you wanted the cylinder piston to go back and forth by itself without you using the hand switch , how would you do that?

@onmivecsengineeringsolutio3154 5 жыл бұрын

As is, it has a nice air suspension / shock absorption feature.

@carmelpule6954 2 жыл бұрын

That is a good start with a basically bang-bang system with no load and the friction is so high to dampen the whole unit. I wonder how it would behave if a heavy load was applied to the output. Presumably, it would oscillate, and some velocity feedback would be necessary. I think it would do without integral control. Congratulations. One would have appreciated velocity control, acceleration control, and integral control. in addition to just the positional error sensor.

@paulb8264 5 жыл бұрын

May I be pedantic for a minute? When you had the valve Teed together you have the same pressure in both ends of the cylinder but different areas which yield different forces. Force = Pressure * Area. So you are correct in the in balance of forces causing it to be difficult to hold a position but it's not due to a difference in pressure.

@payskate 5 жыл бұрын

There are already electro-pneumatic valves for increasing and decreasing air flow for controlling the speed and curve. So no need to make them yourself, they are quite small and cheap

@rock-afire-fan 5 жыл бұрын

actually the pneumatic servo valve that do exactly what you just said are quite large and expensive. A good servo valve costs around $1,000

@payskate 5 жыл бұрын

@@rock-afire-fan i dont know about those ones. I'm guesing you are talking abou industrial high pressure or high air flow control valves. Because I remeber using some small servo pneumatic control valves back in uni and they were relitively small and like 70$ for one. They could handle up to 9 or 10 bar I think. It's not a lot but for what hes got in the video, that would be plenty. I maybe wrong

@q.sperling2693 5 жыл бұрын

"Festo"

@KamikazeWombat 5 жыл бұрын

I was actually thinking a ball valve attached to servo. Might not be good enough for a proper robot, but should be plenty good enough for testing purposes

@brk_can 5 жыл бұрын

You should build a BIG exosuit with them :)

@bruceneely4859 5 жыл бұрын

yes revisit the exosit with what you've learned since you stopped the last one

@lukedavid8099 5 жыл бұрын

Let him finish a project or 2 first ;)

@bruceneely4859 5 жыл бұрын

@@lukedavid8099 finish a project? what does that even mean?

@lukedavid8099 5 жыл бұрын

@@bruceneely4859 hah lol

@PrasanthNivi 3 жыл бұрын

Is it possible to hold in a position of cylinder by using 5/3 Direction control valve

@warrenorman6005 10 ай бұрын

HI. Is there a way to speed up a linear accuarator other than the speed you bought? It take 20 seconds for my weather maps to move behind a wall I've made? Thanks.

@RichardT2112 5 жыл бұрын

Alien exo skeleton ... you had to ask? :) Thought of using hydraulic fluid instead of air? Messy, but much stronger vs air, for the same size of compressor.

@peytonmac1131 5 жыл бұрын

Alien's Power Loader! Yes! Play Rock-em Sock-em Robots with Bumble Bee.

@smad333 5 жыл бұрын

Can you/are you going to use PWM on these valves to control the flow rate?

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

pretty sure they won't switch past enough

@guanzhouzhu7525 2 жыл бұрын

Can the air cylinder provide constant force?

@brendansimons6811 5 жыл бұрын

You don't need a motorized proportional valve, or even a non-return valve. If each of the solenoid valves you have opens and shuts quickly under PWM control, they can do the job themselves I think.

@steverobbins4872 5 жыл бұрын

You should use a servo valve. Also, for control loop stability remember the cylinder is an integrator that determines the dominant pole.

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

yep that was the plan...

@theunstoppablefreefall1329 5 жыл бұрын

you should combine forces with the Hacksmith. They are working on something like that but im sure you know that

@trisunaryo7373 4 жыл бұрын

What type of selenoid valve and brand are you using ... is there a serial code or not ... I want to use the selenoid valve

@andrew1977au 5 жыл бұрын

Can you do PWM valves on the outlets?

@ryankraft9897 5 жыл бұрын

PWM is a method used sometimes in pneumatics but it isn't common in industrial applications as the high on/off rate leads to shortened valve life. PWM isn't great in most mechanical systems for the same reason

@Robothut 5 жыл бұрын

Time to build a home VR deck to ride on ! Water hydraulics might be better as they do not compress.

@dtec30 3 жыл бұрын

This project should be sponsored by smc pneumatics

@donmeles7711 5 жыл бұрын

I would love to see a build with air muscles! Perhaps Festo would even sponsor such a project?

@fernandocastro2075 5 жыл бұрын

I dont think they do... At least in México we dont do that but we have very nice techology to play

@donmeles7711 5 жыл бұрын

@@fernandocastro2075 do you work for Festo in Mexico? :o

@criztofe 5 жыл бұрын

Give Metalwork pneumatics in Milton Keynes a call, they have everything you would ever need.

@mileswatkins2162 8 ай бұрын

Do you have a link for the air cyclinder

@anivarhain 5 жыл бұрын

Talktalktalk!

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

Sorry for educating you. Perhaps you should go over and watch the Hacksmith smashing things up with another hammer instead.

@trentw26 5 жыл бұрын

Holy crap, I've spent years reading your name as Burton... It wasn't until you said your name that I realized I was wrong.

@rock-afire-fan 5 жыл бұрын

you should try this with small hydraulic rotary servo valves

@proteinman1981 5 жыл бұрын

By a reed rod, widely used in industry for hydraulic cylinders or a rotary encoder

@DoRC 5 жыл бұрын

9:15 technically it's not because of higher capacity. It's because the piston face on the side without the ram has a larger effective area than the side with the ram as the ram takes up some of that area where it mounts to the piston face.

@bradleymarks1972 5 жыл бұрын

What about using the solenoid valves in reverse on the out flow to restrict the out going pressure...

@jamesbruton 5 жыл бұрын

I did that on the Transformers build to stop it crashing down of power failed. There are also multi-position valves that can do it.

@kospinhulk976 2 жыл бұрын

thanks for the video, I think this is really cool, and I really want to apply it to my project to make a seed press machine, which uses pneumatics, and want to add an Arduino to control it, and I want to ask if I use Arduino what are the advantages of it, for pneumatics with a pressing system, if you like I want you to answer about a cool addition to my project if using Arduino, because if it was just pneumatic it would look normal