"she did the cleaverest thing of all - she died!" are you kidding me?

Why don't we just agree to that Henry was terrible king, terrible husband and even worse father

jane was kind, she reconciled henry and his daughters, she brought peace to his realm as best she could even his court had said weve gone from dark to light, she even gave henry a son and gave her life by doing so... this is my opinion and ill never try and force them on anyone, thats not my style, but janes MY favorite queen.

Amen!!!!! Anne Boleyn fans want to condemn Jane for stealing Henry away, never mind that Anne did the same to Koa. My motto is "what goes around comes around. "

Don't get me wrong, I love Jane, she is my fav wife after Catherine, but I still say that Catherine is the best out of all of them, and the one true queen of England!

This is what I don't like about Anne Boleyn fans, and I love Anne Boleyn. You portray her as a saint who never did one wrong thing, she broke up a 20 year marriage.Jane Seymour on the other hand she tried the best she could to heal the wounds between Henry and Mary. Anne may have been pregnant but Henry was known to take a mistress when ever the hell he wanted, he didn't even think about making her Queen until April 1536, way after the miscarriage.

and she was controlled by her dearest, totally self-serving brothers.

LOL Ms. Worlsley! Jane may not have had a very scintillating personality, but she knew how to handle Henry!

I would serve and obey Lucy!

Yes because it was unusual to happen then. And the only reason he did that was because she was spawn of Spain. It is your opinion but I think Anne was his true love for If you go to Hampton Court and look in the top corner you can see H+A still entwined. He ordered all of the disgraced Queens emblems and things to be destroyed/removed.

I have so much adoration for Queen Anne & KOA, I forget how amazing Queen Anne of Cleves & Katherine Parr were. I think they were great step mums. _And_ Anne of Cleves, against the odds she went on to become the most liked (loved) and wealthy former Queen in Tudor England; bravo!

Anne did the same thing to Katherine, she pushed her family ambitions to grab the king. She wished Mary and Katherine dead and talked of killing Mary when Henry went abroad to France. Anne was not a nice woman either. Of all of Henry wives Jane and Anne of Cleves were the most docile. Jane didn't push any family agenda after she was married to the king and she made Henry very happy while she was with him.

i agree lucy!! jane was my favorite queen as well!!

Maybe you should follow your own advice. You want to go on about how I’m making assumptions based on lack of historical proof, but you have no problems in bashing Jane Seymour, based on your own opinion and not on historical proof. And I quote “Jane happily stepped over Anne's dead body, and she wanted to be Queen from the start. She happily poisoned Henry's mind against his pregnant wife, showing little regard for her condition.”

Definately the weakest case for all these videos about the wives. I feel there is more of an argument for the other wives. Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn were remarkable women. Catheine Howard was tragic and foolish. Katherine Parr managed to get out of a tight spot. Jane is remembered simply for bearing a son. Had Catherine's or Anne's sons lived, they would have been honoured just as much if not more. Had Jane bore a daughter, he'd have buried and forgot her.

So was Anne. And 'do' as he willed. That is what made her weak. She just stood there while her husband went with other woman. You are entitled to think what you like - yeah I like your thinking but in my eyes Anne Boleyn will always be the best :)

I think Anne was a moral person. She did extend the hand of friendship to Mary again and again and she only spoke the 'box her ears' thing in anger. She didn't mean it and Mary wasn't harmed on Anne's orders. Also, Anne had no reason to stop the execution of More and Fisher. They stood against her and her faith. It could be argued that they died to prevent the kind of bloodshed that was seen in the pilgramige of grace. But that's Henry's cross to bare not Anne's.

(cont) Anne tried to refuse him but no one else would marry her, yet she still refused to sleep with him. There's no proof she actually wanted Mary and Katherine dead. On the day of Katherine's death Anne and Henry wore yellow, the colour of Spanish mourning. Henry said "Thank God we are free from all suspicion of war!" The celebration's were more political than about Katherine herself. None of Anne's children would be viewed completely legitimate until Katherine died.

It was also probably a survival strategy. Henry made it blatantly clear that he was interested in her well before Anne's death. She refused him while Anne was alive, but once Anne was sentenced to death, she had to know that marriage to the King was forthcoming. To blatantly snub a king as capricious as Henry by ignoring his prior advances would have been a death sentence.

Would you consider a women who knowingly married someone who was already marred 'moral'? Even if we ignore the Catholic Church's refusal to grant Henry an annulment from Katherine of Aragon, Anne and Henry still entered into a bigamous marriage. The Church of England didn't declare Henry's marriage to Katherine invalid until May of 1533, whilst Anne married Henry in January 1533. Quite, understated Jane Seymour had far more morals than Anne Boleyn. Though Katherine of Aragon was the best.

And there is no proof that she didn't. But telling Henry that she can't have a son unless Katherine and Mary were out of the way is a good indicator that she did.

She was “dying” to get out of that relationship.

I love her!

Anne was a fabulous Queen..well I think. Also I was talking about Jane and Catherine being weak.That was Henry's fault then, I am sure that If Anne had stayed Queen for longer she would have been even more fantastic.

Jane is my fave! Yes!

All of the arguments you have brought forward so far are failing. Modern views? Anne gave us the greatest monarch England has ever had, she helped bring about great changes in the church and supported the reform which allowed common man to read the bible in English, bringing about a new age in learning. Anne donated far more money than any of the other wives to charity and education, and wanted the funds taken from the dissolution of the monasteries to be donated to schools and the poor.

Henry believed his marriage to Katherine was already null and void since she was his brothers widow. Anne no doubt believed the same.

@1993frozenkiwi She didn't reunite Elizabeth and Henry. Only Mary. She stepped over both their mother's bodies easily. She wasn't a nice person in my opinion.

i do have to admit that she was the only one to have a son to make it past infancy and she did have better morals than some of the others but no one can beat the first wive

Yeah. I still haven't changed my mind. One of your points was that she made Henry wait...whereas...Anne did the same. I'm nearly positive it was because she was so submissive and above all giving Henry a son that he was "the most happiest" with in life (supposedly) and such.

that arguement was a bit weak to be honest, i still say anne was the best

The only person who is responsible for the deaths of the Boleyns is Henry and Thomas Cromwell. Jmo!

Henry thought Jane was "the best queen" because she was a doormat.

to her.

LOL! Ok firstly, Henry and Katherine were no longer having sexual relations and no longer spent time together unless state occasions called for it. Henry already wanted a divorce and truly believed the marriage was null and void due to the fact he had married his brothers widow, before his interest in Anne. Anne was very religious so no doubt agreed the marriage was null and void therefore she was free to marry Henry. We must remember that she actually tried to turn down Henry.

❤

Jane wasnt really a nice woman. She knew Anne was innocent but said nothing. She was playing to her family ambitions. And If she didnt give Henry a son she would have probably been discarded. LONG LIVE QUEEN ANNE BOLEYN AND QUEEN KATHERINE OF ARAGON

None of the others pushed Henry to divorce his wife, in 1526-1527 when the divorce proceeding started to happened Henry was still very much in love Catherine. He always loved and respected her, Anne's promise of a son was too much for Henry too give up. I do not believe Henry ever loved Anne, he simply lusted and wanted a chance to have a son. If he truly loved her he would have given her more then 3 chance to have a son. Catherine had 6 pregnancy go to term and number of miscarriages

i love all the wives together.. but elizabeth i and mary i both said he told them she was the mother of the son which he loved her the most.. i love and admire Jane she was clever i would surly be on her good side if i was to meet her.

According to Starkey, there's no evidence to say that Anne ordered their deaths. What's on record is that she said 'Mary would be her death' However, if she did ask for their deaths, it's pretty unforgiveable, but understandable. She was getting increasingly desperate for a son, had fallen out with Cromwell and her relationship with Henry had cooled. In short, a very precarious position. I can imagine her fear of Catherine and Mary was pretty terrible, She tried to do what she could do save her

Yes she died before he could kill her

It means that because she hadn't lived long enough she died young and without any real history, so she is endeared by many.

Henry and Jane burried together. She must have been his favourite.

A terrible case. Jane did as she was told because she was terrified of him; he had just put his previous queen to death eleven days before. She's remembered because she had a son, which is something that you don't actually have control over. All those little tricks that Jane pulled on the King she learned from Anne. And the reason why her fate was different than Anne's is because she had a son.

I'm not portraying her as a 'saint'. She was no saint but she was a strong woman. Theres something about Jane that I hate..I just dont know, it gives me the iffles. 'She' didn't break it up, there were other people involved aswell. Henry could have easily said no to her but he didn't.

Henry loved jane! He mourned her death, and is buried with her.

Edward was not Henry's first son.

Okay, well. I think obviously Anne had to protect her interests, and recognizing Cat as Queen was not one of them. Anne did however have the highground, she wasn't bribing Mary, she didn't Mary, there was no urgent motive to have Mary on side, I honestly believe that Anne did it partly out of kindness, and Mary was bloody obsinate calling Anne the King's mistress lol. Obviously that angered Anne, and compromised her. She couldn't extend the hand of friendship any more than that.

Sii. Ella fue la mejor reina. Tranquila y muy inteligente. Encima le dio el anciado hijo a Enrique VIII.

life.

So what, just because you have a degree in history you can't be wrong?

Its impossible to say if anything other than Anne Boleyn could have triggered Henry to make himself head of the C of E. He certainly was an egomaniac, but Anne bolstered that. Her downfall can be attributed more to Cromwell than to Henry though, even though I agree that it was her fiesty, stubborn nature that caused it.

Excuse me, but I do read my history books, and no I didn't get my knowledge just by watching the Tudors. In fact I was reading up on this stuff way before the show even started, And just because we have a differenc of opinion on things, don't automatically assume that I just got my info from the show!!!

She didn't extend her friendship to Mary...she wanted Mary to denounce her mother and then she would bring her back to the king good graces. I could see your point if she had done it without any motive behind it. Plus she treated very coldly...she even asked Henry to execute both Katharine and Mary....saying she couldn't get a son unless they were dead...if that not harm then I don't know what is.

Henry was told several times prior to marrying Catherine that she would be a bad choice and that they did not need a Spanish alliance. In all honesty that could be a simply mistake. Everything else of Anne's did not survive, paintings, jewels, nothing. It is sad that Henry broke down and wept at the thought of her death. Henry had more respect for Catherine then any other of his wives, she was a true Queen. She understood Henry would do what he willed and accepted it just as Jane did.

That's not true, and my version is based on contemprary sources and things I have read too. and assuming that just because someone doesn't agree w/ what you believe that they haven't done their research is not an attractive trait either. You don't know me so don't assume nothing.

which one shall I reply to ? :)

No, no, no! She was probably a nice lady but the best queen? Probably not. She played a long game, just like Anne. Not as long,obviously, but a long game non the less. Producing an heir to the throne is no real claimed fame, since she had zero control over that. After Anne, Henry needed rest, emotionally. Thus Jane fit nicely. He didn’t have time to get tired of her because she died. One more year and he would have been looking elsewhere again. The man was nuts.

VERY weak argument. Jane Seymour was only so favored because Henry ONLY valued her for that son. Catherine of Aragon gave him a son too, granted that child didn't live long, but it was a male heir. It wasn't until Henry went nuts on the subject of 'must have MALE heir'... Bessie Blount (sp??) also managed a son, Henry Fitzroy who was later granted an earldom, or something similar - I think at one time there was even talk of marrying off Mary to him despite step status of the 2.,

Katherine was still Spanish. While she still lived there was always a threat of war with Spain. Henry AND Anne wore yellow. The chronicler Edward Hall wrote that “Quene Anne ware yelowe for the mournyng.” Anne did not mock her death, there's no evidence to say she did. Henry on the other hand paraded Elizabeth around to all the ladies at court in triumph, and exclaimed when he heard the news of Katherine's death “God be praised that we are free from all suspicion of war!” Therefore your wrong.

thank you everyone is getting mad at me and giving me some thumbs down but i think ppl are taking somethings out of content or just mad cause i dont like anne. I'm not saying she wasnt religious i just dont think she was as religious as she claimed to be and did use the reformed faith for her advantage

i understand your point...and theres so many different stories, that we'd probably never know whats true and whats false..but as i said, jane was my favorite queen, its fine if she isnt anyone elses. :)

See, Cat had the chance for Mary not to be bastardized and disinherited, if only she would step down as Queen. But she was more concerned with her own pride and position than with Mary's. I can see what mean, Anne losing the throne being Karma. But Jane Seymour didn't do that much to get it. She was just lucky. Though I don't see how any of this relates to what I said...

Continue:I never said that Chapuys was not biased, I know that he hated Anne and the colored his vision somewhat. The point I was making is that you are bias, but you have nerve to point out other people’s bias, and then acknowledge your own. You want me to produce evidence on Chapuys, you have yet to give me evidence on Jane?

Also, Anne had no reason to stop the execution of More and Fisher. They stood against her and her faith. It could be argued that they died in order to try prevent the kind of bloodshed that was seen in the pilgramige of grace. But that's Henry's cross to bare not Anne's. I am for from blaming Jane for Anne's death, but she did knowingly catalyse it. That isn't good morals. Then again, I think she displayed good morals during the p.o.g pleading for the rebels' lives. So it's not clear cut.

Why?

As far as her wearing yellow, that maybe the mourning colors in spain, but Koa intergrated herself into English society, proof she changed her name. she went from Catalina to Katherine. And those colors were totally inappropriate, by wearing yellow Anneonly intentions were to mock Koa....and celebrate the fact that she was dead.

Well...specifically, apart from his marriage vows.

Why do you think Katherine Howard's morals were questionable?

Every other promise?

How did Jane Seymour survive Henry VIII? She died.

So I guess no powerful people are without sin.

Oh um I'm not arguing but yeah I'll agree that Henry was an idiotic bum. All the wives are the best I suppose in their own ways :)

Jane Seymour is my 17 × Great Aunt!

I have study the Tudors as well, and people have many opinons on what happened. You might read one thing and take it one way, and others might have a whole different opinion it. Not everything is so cut and dry, and it it was that simple why are their people debating this issue? And evidence can always be disproven.

which anne

Jane Seymour always seemed a little boring to me, following the dark, worldly Anne Boleyn and the Spanish Princess Catherine of Aragon makes it hard to be the interesting one.

Lol, it wasn't that, she was his only option. He treated her appallingly until she got pregnant. KoA was divorced, AnneB a traitor, Jane his true wife (not true love) since she gave him a son, AoC divorced and still alive, KatherineH a traitor and KatherineP was still alive.

There are some things that I do like about Anne, but I hardly say she is a good moral person. The way she treated Mary, told the servants to beat her. A person with good moral values doesn't do that. Not only, what could Jane have done? women's roles were a whole lot different then. its unrealistic to think that she could have stopped it. for that matter why didn't Anne stop the executions of Thomas More and Cardinal fisher?

Jane did provoke Henry. Originally, he treated her really badly when she begged on Mary's behalf and on behalf of the leaders of the pilgrimage of grace (the same fight that Anne had with Cromwell). Yes. Jane was nothing like Anne and quickly submitted, I concede that. But the point I'm trying to make is that it must have been very difficult not to fall out over these matters.

Although I respect and admire Jane for her avocation of Mary and to a lesser extent, Elizabeth, its ridiculous to suggest she promoted them over her own child. Also, I don't really think that Jane managed much by 'speaking her mind without losing her head' - Anne Boleyn, by contrast, helped trigger the English reformation.

Mainly Cromwell, defo not Jane...

But there is no proof she was kind. She didn't reconcile Henry and his daughters - Katherine Parr did. Mary was welcomed back to court but at a price - she had to sign an agreement stating that she herself was illegitimate and her mother's marriage to her father null and void. Jane didn't bring peace, she was just shut up whenever she tried to speak. Her giving Henry a son was luck, and her dying was not planned. She had schemed her way into Henry's bed.

No she didn't she threw tantrums, complained openly, and tried once, with the help of Jane Boleyn, to get rid of one of her husband mistress. The reason she lost her head were on her, Henry did not like a woman who argued with him and since Anne had not provided the son he longed for she didn't even have solid ground to stand on with him. Anne was remarkable, well educated woman, a true Renaissance woman, however as a Queen she was a compete disaster.

My version is based on contemporary sources, yours is based on your own ideas. It's not favouritism, its the information in the primary sources. What you said had no evidence to back it up, where as I know what I am talking about. I do not condone Anne's treatment of Mary, I never said that, putting words into others mouths is never an attractive trait in anyone. I understand why Mary acted the way she did towards Elizabeth, although I do not agree with it.

I disagree with you on Mary....Anne only saw Mary as a nusiance more then anything. As far as her extending her hand to her, she wanted Mary to disown her mother! I could see your point if she offered her hand in friendship without conditions. Plus she asked Henry to both execute Mary/Katharine......so she could have a son. So I think she definitly meant some harm to both Mary and KOA

Your missing the point. What I am saying is backed up by primary sources, the stuff on which history is written. History like science, cannot be backed up by assumption, only evidence. I know I am not wrong because what I am saying is backed by evidence.

urgh, ignore my last comment, my thoughts got mixed up and didn't come out the way I wanted it too!!

Your entitled your opinion when it comes Anne. Just like I'm entitled to my opinion, its not that my arguments are failing its just that you are not open to hear anyone's thought's on this subject other then your own. So I really don't see the point of debating further when all we do is go back and forth.

(cont2) You need to read into the subject more, you seem to have very little knowledge of what actually happened. Jane was part of the Roman Catholic faction, she openly rallied against Anne. Jane happily stepped over Anne's dead body, and she wanted to be Queen from the start. She happily poisoned Henry's mind against his pregnant wife, showing little regard for her condition. Is that not also manipulative and conniving? I will say it again - THERE IS NO PROOF JANE WAS A KIND PERSON!!

Lol I have a degree in History. I spent 4 years researching the Tudors, so I know my stuff. It's not what I believe, its what I know. By the way it's don;t assume anything, not nothing.

LOL Chapys was not pro-Anne, nor am I. She was a great woman, who we owe a lot to, but I do not favour her above the other wives. Jane is labelled as something she was not, she did nothing of note during her reign other than produce a son and keep her mouth shut, hardly worth congratulating. Chapys supported Jane, so he would have no need to pass negative judgements on her, he disliked Anne. So what he says about Jane does not count as bias. Give me evidence about Jane to contradict Chapys?

i think u give henry too much credit. he was an easily influenced man...even though i dont care for anne i can respect her in some ways for she knew this & deff influence henry to do alot. i dont think henry would break away from rome if it werent for anne...he was scared to do it in the first place for he was highly religious (not that he acted like it) & because it can bring war with the catholic countries if u broke away. & he wasnt looking for a way to discard cat for a long time he didnt

Continue:The reason you have not answered because you don’t have evidence or anything to back up your word on Jane’s character, it’s your opinion. And you criticizing other people for not having historical evidence, when you yet to state any yourself, says a lot about you.

I think Jane was very cunning and political in her own right. She was the reason he was reunited with Mary and Elizabeth. My favorite queen!!!

This is all legitimate evidence, Chapys was pro Jane so would not lie about her either as it served him no purpose to do so.

There is a difference between opinion and historical fact. A good historical analysis can see past the bias and find core facts within sources. Take Chapys - most of what we know about Anne Boleyn comes from his letters, yet he disliked Anne, so he is bias. If we take away his negative opinion we are left with basic fact. Evidence cannot be disproved unless something of the contrary is found and History cannot be changed since it is in the past. Data is always correct until proven otherwise.

Dear God. Was that sarcasm?

The most sucessful? Sure. The best? No.

Anne did the same thing to Koa? So why get upset when Jane does it. And you want to talk about Jane stepping over someone dead body. Anne had no probs stepping over the dead bodies of Thomas More and several others who didn't sign the oath. lol, again your putting your modern views....what was Jane supposed to do? Tell Henry she was not going to marry him? This man just murdered his wife, has it ever crossed your mind that maybe Jane kept her mouth shut so the same thing would not happen ~