In the video I am using guitarists as examples. Can you come up with other instruments and have 1 triplet swing, 1 in-between and 1 even 8th note phrasing?

Swing rhythm seems like another wonderful element that lets a musician infuse their musical personality into their performance. I had an aha moment watching this video when you said that the rhythm can't really be written down. I used to take sheet music very literally, and I'm coming to realize, it's a just a series of guide posts. The rest is up to the artist.

I've mentioned this before, but learning the drums over the last year has helped my feel, note placement and space in my playing a lot. Coming from a rock and classical background my technique and timing on straight rhythms were already there. But drumming anything with a shuffle or swing has helped my jazz playing a lot. I also think someone really having their technique down and worked out is very important. I think it's hard to have good time feel if your technique is not clean and efficient.

I just love the way Scofield plays behind the beat. Steve Cardenas ( a really great Kansas City guitar player ) has an amazing swing and time feel.

I've listened to a lot of jazz saxophonists playing 8th notes and it's hard for most guitarists to emulate their feel. Unlike a guitarist, a saxophonist has a continuous stream of air coming up from their lungs (breath support) when they play their 8th notes, and they just 'cut off' this stream using their tongues to shape their 'bebop' 8th notes etc. This continuous stream of air and the exploitation of the tongue creates a very, very smooth 8th note sound which is hard for percussive instruments like piano and guitar to match... But not only is the guitar at a disadvantage to the sax in terms of playing smooth 8ths, it's also more difficult than piano. This because unlike a guitar, the pianist's right hand fingers not only provide the attacks and melodic choices, they also control note decay - Never mind saxophone, to even approach what a jazz pianist does, the guitarist needs TWO hands to do the same thing - Picking hand to provide attack and fretting hand to limit/control decay!!! Deliberate, conscious control of pick attack dynamics and note decay, is what allows a string of so called bebop 8ths, to sound human and expressive as opposed to merely mechanical on a guitar... One final word on Wes Montgomery - A lot of people admire Wes' licks and lines. Wes' single note playing was really an extension of his trademark octave/slide playing where he tended to slide up and down the fingerboard with octaves. His single note playing just took the octave/slide approach and added speed and dexterity by using the three large fingers. Also, Wes played the vast majority of his licks just using strictly downstrokes (thumb) even amazingly, at faster tempos. I've also noticed the older bebop players like Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel, seem to favour strict downstrokes only even though they're using picks, because this helps to avoid the more triplet/shuffle feel inherent with alternate picking. From my own experience, when I switched from alternate picking to strict down strokes only, my jazz 8th note feel improved almost overnight. It's much easier to keep the notes even when playing only downstrokes. Also, it's much, much more easy to accent offbeats/upbeats with downstrokes than with alternate picking. Unlike the old school jazzers, I don't favour downstrokes at faster tempos because it just puts too much stress on my wrist. However the 'feel' I learn at slower tempos with strict downstrokes only approach, is then more easily transferrable to faster tempos where I use alternate picking...

Well said Jens - You're the only jazz guitar tutor on KZfaq who's telling it like it is - There is NO one way to play so called swung eighths - That's what make it interesting, otherwise people improvising would sound like a piano roll or a computer instead of a human being...

My favorite swing musician is Lester Young. He has a linear style that floats above the beat but propels it forward in a relentless way. Bird is probably my favorite jazz musician and I listen to a lot of the 60s free players but for just feels good swing I turn to Lester. I can't quite lock into a lot of current jazz because it seems to me the strong beats are de-emphasized, the drummer plays off the beat and around the beat and the beat is mostly just implied in the solos. Maybe I'm stuck in the past but a lot of current stuff just lacks drive to me and I find drive very attractive. Examples I like: Bird and Diz on anything, Lester on anything, Coltrane on Chasin' the Trane or Good Bait from Soultrane. David Murray on Blues for Savannah on Shakill's Warrior shows him going inside and outside but driving like heck. I don't know much but I know what I like.

Such a terrific explanation for what swing is. Awesome. Just what I was looking for. Short clear and easy to understand. Love your work Jens. Thank you for all you donate here on KZfaq for jazz curious people like me to get useful and practical guitar skills.

Thanks for addressing this. All the lessons I can find say to either play staight or full triplet swing. I play a lot of funk and soul music and it seems to sit in the middle. Its hard to explain time feel to people. I'm always looking for examples to show band member, back to back different degrees of swing

More people should know this thanks jens

Barry Harris is my favourite when it comes to swinging; I'd recommend his recording of lolita for his type of swing - can't help tap my foot to his rhythmic phrasing. Great video!

Very cool as always ! Thanks Jens

Great explanation & exercises! Microtiming is massively important :)

Hi Jens, I've been ĺearning to play west coast blues and I love the swing feel, Wes plays lots of eighths and mixes triplets into his phrasing too. A fantastic tune to learn!

Thanks for explaining this with such nice examples.

My band teacher insists that swing is just a matter of emphasis and touch (tonguing), not timing. He ridicules the triplet feel as "doo-tee-doo, doo-tee-doo"and insists he wants to hear even eighth notes, just with the right touch. He's a professional musician who's never punched a clock in his life, so I'm not going to convince him otherwise, but I recognized early on when I started playing that it's more about the ineffable "feel" and that what sounds good on a slow tempo (triplet feel) becomes impractical at a fast tempo. So I agree with your approach which I find more useful.

Thanks Jens ! This is something I really need and want to work on. Cheers, Kevin 🙂

thank you, im starting to try and avoid the constant heavy swing feel im using

The Pym Jacobs video is amazing. I think I mentioned it in a comment some months ago in the light of Wes's expert but gentle and charming sub rosa mentoring and encouraging of the musicians, particularly on The End of a Love Affair (as opposed to the chilling video of a rehearsal for a TV session, with Bill Evans all but telling a young British drummer standing in for a session not to even bother). He swings his way through End of a Love Affair - which I like better here than on his recording of it. All three of your choices are great

Thx for sharing so much great material Jens

Great discussion, Jens -- swing is essential to jazz and yet difficult to define; it requires an example in order to make sense. I came to jazz via the Swing Era, when solos were much more concise due to the time constraints of the 78 rpm record; though as a guitarist I've always been interested in the chordal-style soloists of the pre-Charlie Christian Era, I learned about phrasing and swing from horn players, especially trumpet players like Bunny Berigan (my favorite), Louis Armstrong and Roy Eldridge and trombonist Vic Dickenson. While I believe a truly unerring sense of what I would call "note placement" is something that you're just born with, I think by listening to, say, Count Basie, you will automatically respond to that irresistible swing his bands always had, and it will help you develop a feel for where to place your notes in the context of time.

Good video for explaining this difficult concept. I think another important element of swing is the accents of notes. When you played your example of an in between swing, you accented that second eighth note a bit more. I think swing is more about accented notes than the triplet feel, especially as you said, at the higher tempos.

Put on the music-stand up and dance-clap your hands-sing along. Another thing is the articulation within the line-the attack of each note- the weight of the notes in comparison to next note or the next 3 notes or the next 4 notes, and so on- the crescendo and diminuendo with in the line. But dancing and hand clapping and singing, that gets the swing into your body. People want to feel the music in their bodies. The players have to feel it before they can send it to the listener.

I think it was Mike Moreno who said that for him, modern swing feel means straight 8ths, laid way back behind the beat and accenting some of the upbeats.

Always something. Thanks Jens.

Really enjoyed this

Towards the end of this video you'll see and hear some (at least for me) unexpected results from people who have actually scientifically studied swing feel. Really cool

I would like to hear more of you providing examples straight vs triplet than trying to figure out how the master's are playing it. Not that listening to them isn't good, its just that its hard to pick out exactly what they're doing.

What an amazing Wes video, has all the elements of the material we are studying here but Wes Mongomery does it so naturally what is the name of the last tune they played? The pianist is great also, I loved how they all worked out the tunes together Thanks for this one, Jens!

tnx alot for your great lesson..

Bernstein Bernstein Bernstein! Man his time feel is beautiful...

For amazing swing I would recommend you listen to Barney Kessel and in particular his live in Sweden 1973 album entitled 'Just Friends' Oy boy this guy swings you into submission!! Let me know jazzers when you've heard it.

I see the ax8 :):) Mine arrives tomorrow. Been with my axe fx II for 3 years.:):)

Excellent,thank you.

To learn to Swing requires lots and lots of listening to get it in your gut. Listen the great bass players and notice how even their quarter note lines Swing. Swing's roots are in the Afro-Cuben rhythms that influence New Orleans Jazz and then moved on to the Swing bands in Kansas City. There is this hint of a floating 3 against 4 within the measure and why Swing can't be written the length of notes are always varying slightly. Swing has this forward motion going on and the great players you hear when playing eight notes the second eighth is slightly stronger giving the forward motion. Keep these things in mind as you listen to greats and internalize their Swing feel.

Hey, Jens, I think a good thing to talk about would be ways that players do it *wrong*. I have a feeling with my playing, I can *play* it swing without really *feeling* it swing. Can you tell the difference between a novice who really gets the swing feel and one who is only imitating it?

Hi Jens, Does your website download lesson "Jazz & Bebop Phrasing - C Blues" tie in to this video? I was looking at that yesterday and then saw this video. I love to figure out horn leadsl of 50-60's jazz bands that are swinging and jam along with them so I'm doing step 1 in the above video already. I've noticed at jams though when it's showtime, I don't have the horn solo ideas engraned as well as I thought I did. So I was thinking maybe a scale lesson in swing phrasing would be good to practice to kickstart ideas. Thanks for your killer videos!!

Swing I think of Freddie Green and of course Count Basie. Vocalist come to mind as well Ella and especially Billie.

Is it ok to mix your swing? Say start your phrase with an obvious swing feel, but shift use to straight 8ths at the end?

Great Jens, it don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing….. ;)

One of my favorites to practice getting a swing feel is Joe Pass doing Rosetta on the For Django album. I have the transcription for it and love the swing feel. I’m still nowhere close to matching it, though. 😢

how do you play sixteenth note over swing ? wouldn't it sound very bad ?

Sound like Wes Montgomery plays Naptown Blues? The link is dead

I love both Wes and Joe Pass, but no one swings more than Kenny Burrell, at any tempo. I'm working on some of his stuff Trying to learn the language Thanks for your videos 😊

I don't hear the difference between straight (even) time and in between. What can I do to hear or play that in between groove?

Thanks professor! Please some Gary Moore! 🙏

Hey Jens, I’m practising The Red One for my recital in December next month. I listen to the recording and it doesn’t sound obviously swing to my ear; but when I bring it into the band context I can’t help play it swing. Any thoughts? I should book a lesson with you?

Perhaps the only one here in the comments mentioning him. Though I appreciate, and even like jazz, I can’t help but mention Eddie van Halen. He seems to have such a loose feel, when it comes to swing and groove. I can’t help but wonder what sets him apart in this aspect, as I’m just starting with the rhythmic side of music theory. For those unfamiliar, songs like: Drop Dead Legs, Hot For Teacher and I’m the one come to mind. Perhaps anyone could help me get started with this?

Sir I cannot copy songs,when I try to learn the songs I struggle on timing though I can play on time when I play my own composition.what is wrong with me sir please help

Is it correct that bebop does not use swing feel often?

Its very hard to notate rythms from Wes solos correctly, at least to me.

Just gotta listen to Kenny.

I can't get this in-between feel and it drives me crazy

Gonna brush my teeth on 2/4 Sleep with the metronome on 2/4 hahhaha

Research has shown drummers automatically go from 1:1 (very fast songs) - over 3:2 (fast songs) - over 2:1 (medium tempo) - to 3:1 (slow songs) ratios. (EDITED with correction, my initial statement incorrectly inverted the tempo)

its way beyond the triplet that's how i like it anyway