Just last night I made the final decision to quit working for Amazon, never to return. Its not worth it.

Because of the vesting schedule, the four year cliff at Amazon is particularly brutal, but the truth is that at almost every company, you are going to be worth more on the free market than internally after about 2 years. Maybe it shouldn't be this way, but it's a near-universal truism.

As a current employee at Amazon I can attest to everything he is saying. Even though I an a tier 1 AA I have been given responsibilities on the ship dock in leadership positions that some days they put you through hell. Imagine for a second that you are being pulled 16 different ways all at once. They thin down the staff to the point that one person might be responsible for 3 other positions.

Why does no one else record videos like you. You get straight to the point its awesome

Wow, this one definitely had me glued to the screen! Super insightful man!

I love this concept of "pressure testing" the job market with your abilities/skills! I'm gonna start using that concept of pressure testing more in everything. I've always seen it as the more I explore and look for experiences/knowledge the more I learn but the pressure test concept is so much more concise and to the point.

Love your videos John, thank you for sharing

Appreciate the insights john!

I love the breakdown on why you left Amazon and why it makes sense in the long run. I think more people should stop and think if staying or leaving brings more value. It definitely helps to hear if from someone in a great position still deciding to move on to grow. Keep bringing that great content!

Helpful information 👍. Thank you 🤝

Good info. Studying for AWS Developer now. Was curious about this.

Hey thank you for this insight.

Great video! Thank you for this!

Question: At work I mostly hear things such as: “Team”, “Alignment”, “Inspiration”, “Drive the change” At any one-on-one conversations I mostly hear “Money”, “Bonus”, “Stock”, “Cash”. Is it because of our own hypocrisy or companies’ management?

Personally, I found after getting promoted the 4 year cliff vanished and my workload has remained relatively constant (gradually increasing with my skillset).

Hey John, love your content!

Thank you for being honest, That is very true I thought it's just me but I have many friends working there as well and they all not happy.

This is incredibly insightful- I’d love to be in a similar position one day as I start my PM journey!!

This analysis is valid for any type of job at Amazon, even if salaries can be widly different.

Thanks perfect analysis

Damn, I wish I found this video sooner. Just hit the 4year cliff and took on a management role that landed me with lateral pay, heightened responsibility and a much longer workday😓

Anyone who joined in the last 2 years is likely out in 2 years as the stock has fallen 40-50%.

Super insightful!

Thanks for sharing John! I've always wondered what it was like working there. Great content.

Thank you for the insight! Currently pending an interview with AWS. I would guess AWS works the same? Is it the same for IT network/ software engineers?

Great video!

Great video John. All the very best for your new role.

This idea of constantly changing and moving on is great and sounds fitting in some of these tech jobs but not necessary stable for the general working family. Someone with a few kids likely wants something that can cover their family for a while versus having to constantly switch things up every 4 years. And it's also easier when you're still younger; obviously that's what companies like Amazon are betting on.

Thanks for sharing

“From any number of employer… I can get a massive raise and get new stock and get a bonus.” At eye-watering numbers like $300k TC, I think this is only true in Big Tech and “unicorn” tech companies. Very attainable for an experienced Amazon PM, but the wording makes it sound like this level of compensation can be found anywhere.

Watching this video and reading these comments as an L1 FC associate has me asking myself why i’m even here, but it was interesting none the less.

John, I’ve been following your channel and path. I muffed my Amazon interview for Sr PMT, after listening to you, I’m not interested in reapplying. Also, I have interviews with AmEx Digital Labs coming up, what should I be aware of going into AmEx, if things go in my favor? Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

I assume bridge cash is a sign-on bonus bridging base compensation to the stock compensation. I would also think a higher base compensation and sign-on bonus would be preferable for lower total compensation because the company could essentially fire you prior to four years giving you zero equity compensation.

Did you ever consider having Amazon give you a "Dive and Save" counteroffer?

My son went from working hard on a hay farm to being a package driver for Amazon for one dollar more an hour. He loved it at first but that love quickly wore off. As he kept making his delivery time goals each week, they kept pushing him more and more without any bonuses. It was never good enough. He was working 12-hour shifts. He was exhausted, going up flights upstairs carrying packages daily. The better he was, the more they worked him until he completely gave out. Once he tripped on a step and he was terrified to tell management so he wouldn't get yelled at n get a mark against him or get fired. I cleaned his elbow and super glued his elbow skin together and put butterfly stitches on it send sent him back to work. A year later, after 2 years of no raises, tighter goals to meet, no recognition for safety, and reaching his goals, he gave up n quit. This Statement is from KM on an Amazon Prime Commercial. 5 months ago

They need more robots at amazon.. this is where I do see useful application for them.. I believe this is what Amazon Needs... to ease the workload and increase ethical practises/conditions over there... and more respect for the employees... its CRITICAL/ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT...

At Google, the stock grant too vests over 4 years, but it vests evenly: 25% each year.

I have been at amzn since July 2017. The cliff happens bc you should be moving up, promo, by then. If not, you're not doing it right, aka not increasing your value, skills and therefore they want you out. If you are getting promo'd then the stock and base increase.

I have recently been offered a promotion at my company to a management position. The new role required to relocate to a new state. Salary increase, however, was 10% only. 10% to move your family’s lives and do 3X the amount of work. It’s often better to change a company than to be promoted at your existing place. Doesn’t make sense but that’s the reality.

I was T1 for 6.5 years, but they dropped all stocks & bonus pay - become not worth it for the bodily damage.

Please do a video on what type of companies will pay ex-Amazon employees more than Amazon? Which cities? Thank you.

I just quit and I’m joining a local food producer looking to take on the big guys. Can’t wait til Feb to start!

It's a 4 year package as it's expected that they will have extracted as much value as they can from you in 4 years and you're likely to be done and move on, through burnout etc.... I completed 1 full cycle and decided I wanted different challenges.

Shockingly honest. Thank you for this! Have you retired?

This is super insightful, John! That’s really interesting and counterintuitive that you didn’t feel it was worth it to get promoted and take on additional responsibility for a minimal pay increase. Best wishes in your new role/company!

What did you do after Amazon? If you got another corporate job, did you land an offer before quitting? Your decision makes complete sense to me.

Love this! At Amazon myself for almost a year and considering taking a lateral transfer to another department in my office to learn more skills and become more well rounded for when I apply out, in comparison to taking a promotion within my own department for the reasons you stated. Amazon seems like a great opportunity to get some good success stories and compensation until that cliff arrives and it’s time to hit the road.

so what happens after 4 year cliff, if base was 150 and you get 40 shares in 4th year, what about 5th year?

Thanks John, great video as always. I am of the opinion that they keep giving the stock every year or atleast after you vested all of them they offered at the joining. Am i wrong?

Thanks for your sharing, I'm going to reject the 3rd round of interview because of this. I already get an offer with good salary and RSU (25%-25%-25%-25%) and feel there're a lot of risk on Amazon's offer even it's possibly a little more than my current offer in total. Amazon RSU rule (5%-15%-40%-40%) is so stupid and I could foresee it will handcuff my valuable 4 years.

What did you do for Amazon

I think not only amazon , japan company mitsubishi also do that, with there was no share, no bonus, no wage increase and when you hit 4 year their toss everyone job at you cause everyone was already leaving and only me left. I decide too quit, Nov 21 was be my last time there before i reach total burnout.

They stop paying you well? How do they stop paying you well when you’re already paid well and even level up also has in increase of your already high salary. Sorry if I don’t get if. I’m a plebeian.

what's annual increase with the base, 10%?

Do you think it’s worth it to go for the promotion from sde1 to sde2 or is it easier to get the promotion externally?

Working as floor associate really sucks too. I wanna make the same move and leave that evil empire.

Working as an L4 and higher, you can definitely take the knowledge and experience you’ve learned from Amazon and apply it towards your future career. I was an L4 Loss Prevention Specialist and was on a mission to become an L5 Multi site Loss prevention site l, and yes it will be more work with more buildings to be charge of, so I had to think about what I’ll be making more based on what I’m making now. Don’t get me wrong everyone goal is to get promoted to make more money , but a boatload of more work and stress for a slight bump in salary just wasn’t worth the extra stress and headache. Knowing what I have learned at Amazon during my time there, I just applied everything I had learned into a similar role at a different company as an L5, with higher pay without the boatload of extra stuff thrown at you. Amazon leadership positions do hold a lot of weight, so that’s a plus altogether.

Does this apply to Amazon jobs worldwide UK to be precise or just the US? Also does the employee need to buy the stocks by themselves or automatically enrolled on the Amazon stocks market ?

I'm not saying your video isn't good, but if you don't plan on promoting or moving up you can't complain what a company pays you doing the SAME job after a few years. You can't expect endless raises in the same role. You have to move

I subscribed so fast I didnt even notice

Good for You batyushka John!!!

I got an offer from aws honeycode. Can you give me an insight of pressure of work for an l4 level?

What did you do at Amazon to make that kind of money?

How many hours a week were you working?

What title did you hold at Amazon?

Did you ever think to work for your government in the IT division?

I’m currently an L3 IT associate at Amazon so I am not eligible for stocks and from what I hear getting promoted internally is not really worth it. I only been here 6 months but I guess we will see what happens.

Maybe im not understanding correctly, but your entry job paid $150k/year?

I'm looking at Amazon right now (hence why I'm here). Thinking about it, I think I'm fine with the "4 years of making bank" followed by a change of scenery (if that's what it comes to). I have almost 10 years of experience now at a few different companies. Which means I'm already only spending 2-4 years at any one place before I move on to bigger and better opportunities. I guess it would be nice to be able to settle in somewhere throughout my 30's / 40's, but it makes total sense that these big tech companies want a constant stream of fresh faces with new ideas flowing through the revolving doors. I suppose it also protects them from dolling out massive salaries to people, only for them to ultimately "get comfortable" and no longer be that 'bright eyed new guy' bending over backwards for them. They'd rather have those guys get an automatic "pay cut" after 4 years and move on. I guess we'll all just play the game :)

I just sign a contract on ORM On Road Management I used to work in a workshop/ warehouse so this is big deal for me

Amazon screws the internal promotions

The most honest story I heard about why someone left amazon.

This was really interesting! I'm thinking a lot about toxic corporate culture in general and struggling with accepting the boxes that we get put in as employees. Maybe that's not the exact issue you faced at Amazon but I think in general, it's all about these corporate systems that, a lot of times, are actually designed to work against us. Thanks for sharing you experience :)

I used to work for a logistics company, the operations manager earned about 25 percent more than myself. But I worked 37 hours a week, he worked 55 hours a week, especially considering he was on call 24/7 basically. I was offered a similar job to his at the same company. But hour for hour, I already earned more than he did. Without any of his stress. They thought I was unambitious. I was just realistic

I have a question about the "pressure testing" the job market with your skills. Can't it become an issue with doing that regularly? I feel like it can be a danger because it's not like it's a ton of companies which you would really want to work for. I'm worried that that the good companies is like 10% of the market. If you apply just for testing the waters, aren't you worried after a while (a year or two) you won't have much companies left?

I left Amazon because of the hearing loss. Not from the machines, but from the music they blasted over the speakers. My place was oddly hell-bent on keeping the amp at an “outdoor med. size festival concert” volume, regardless of my complaints. Trivial, I guess but they lost a valuable and hard worker, and I’m much happier at my new job.

How much more money an internal promo from a L5 to a L6 get

Hi, I am getting lots of feedback about aws pip process and firing and all.. Mostly being reviewed by sde s.. I recently got selected as a TAM , so now wondering shall I accept the offer or not.. It's for aws india... Is this culture same for l5 tam roles too? Any guidance.. I don't see people talking about other roles than sde.. Much appreciated.. Thanks

I would say, didn't you felt reasonable for a higher position where you would have more challenges and explain that to your manager? I feel like managers now days should always have a way of meaasuring their employees to be better asset them to the most valueable share withtin the company. Let's make an example as if you were a very good customer drive manager, would that makes sense to make your career growth goes to customer success ?

I don't see what customers see in Amazon in the first place. I have never had a bad experience with e-bay. E-bay is cheaper and if I don't get the item or it is not what I ordered, ebay steps in and automatically refunds my money.

Even people that don't work for Amazon were telling me that they get all your good ideas and then fire you after just one year, so you are not vested with the company and then they don't have to pay you.

This video is so helpful. I'm wondering how work life balance is at Amazon. I've heard horror stories from people and I'm not sure if one should accept a job offer from them

sir how get job in amazon

Super helpful!!! Where are you headed

Doesn't amazon still give raises and promotions? or would it be more financially beneficial to just switch jobs.

Now amazon hit a level of profit ceiling, I doubt it would have the same growth as before. Therefore you should assess the market each year

Yes, my girlfriend is level 4 and she’s ending up taking a pay cut cuzz of lack of stocks

I'm also ex-Amazon. Was there for just under 6 years. One point of perspective on the 4-year cliff, my understanding is that it's set up that way not only to stave off complacency, but it's in essence an "up or out" dynamic. Meaning, you're expected to either move up or move on. That's why the pay levels are structured to fall at the 4-year mark. But at review time, you can be rewarded with additional RSU's that enable you to maintain your comp level as an IC (individual contributor) even if you're not pursuing a promotion (which is what happened for me and why I stayed past the 4 years despite not moving to L7), which can be a difficult hill to climb.

I decided to order something (GPU) for the first time with Amazon. Made an account and ordered a second hand GPU i needed for my work. Next day it came in a cardboard box that was falling apart. The GPU box was missing a lid, the GPU looked fine but did not turn on. So i tried to return it the next day after i left a negative review on this product with a photo of how it got delivered, a few hours afters i left this review my account got suspended and the review removed. After some trouble i got emailed a return code that was not accepted by UPC or UPS, so after visiting 5 shops that would return my package but refused the code i called Amazon again, they send me a wrong code and now send me the correct code. It worked with the first place i delivered it to. Now a month later my order account is still suspended and my money is not returned while they accepted my return package and agreed for a refund(i repaired the carboard box with allot of tape.) This is a horrible first experience with Amazon and has made not want to order anything online anymore.

Genuinely curious. Looking for career change

It's the dirtiest place I've ever worked at. Honestly look further if you're thinking of signing that contract

Did you well good for you. There is nothing wrong with amazon i been here 2 years now!!

Awesome insights! Thanks! Now I understand why they reached out to me with the opportunity. I look like the next talent to recycle... 😂

I had a question. So I see your argument about hitting the cliff but you also seem to be sure Amazon stock will keep going up. How do you make a decision to leave a job then? It almost seems that you are going to be financially well if the stock keeps going up, right? Getting in another company is a good choice but the culture and team and most importantly your work matter a lot, right? I understand changing a job while you are getting promoted though because the thing about pay band is true.

greater responsibility = higher money ? is the right ?

Sad that they hire managers with no basic knowledge of how anything works there so it made me asked why they even there never seen managers that were sooo lazy in my entire life

This Amazon company review sounds exactly like the whole nursing culture and profession. No wonder why nurses are leaving hospitals for travel nursing and people leave Amazon 😅

The dislike is from the boss 😂

💯 he is telling the truth 😁

I'm captivated by every word. I read a book with similar content, and I was completely captivated. "Mastering AWS: A Software Engineers Guide" by Nathan Vale