"In order to fit in they have to do some damage to their psyche" Feels good to hear someone finally say that... its so unfair

What I notice repeatedly as a creative person, is the flame of creativity, that bursts out and spikes in completely random times of day ( occasionally even at midnight ), and calms itself after that and just flickers subtly for a long time until a sudden, random burst happens again. Also, that burst can endure for longer or shorter periods. It‘s truly a chaos, though a beautiful one I certainly embrace.

Growing up in a family of narcissists will crush a creative child before they even realize it. By the time they do the effect has already ruined their sense of identity and confidence in their abilities. This is how depression, anxiety, and drug users are formed.

A hard part of being creative is working for someone who isn't. They don't understand creativity isn't something you can do on an 8-5 schedule.

The hard part isn't creativity but to make people understand and value your creativity.

At the age of 45 I started playing guitar and drums again like I did when I was playing with all my dead friends in a band in my teens and twenties. Best thing I've ever done it has changed me for the better in so many ways you must have that creative outlet!

"You have to criticize (society) with GRATITUDE... " ... "because the opposite of gratitude, is resentment..."

The truly creative individual, even within the realms of oppression, may liberate him/herself by the very act of creativity, even if not perhaps financially, but in some other aspect of their existence.

Some of these lectures give me chills and really make me feel humbled

My family is horribly oppressive toward any kind of creativity Their existence is a very sad one

I resent when arrogant people deceive me.

Brain downloading information and applying it to my life.

So many deep thoughts, each one worth writing a book about....

As a school employee, listening to so many staff complain bitterly about certain students, I used to joke, "Yeah. It would be so much easier to do school if it weren't for all these students." School is the students. Socializing them, helping them understand the purposes of school. We herd them like cats, dogs, horses, giraffes, and a few people through year after year of school, punctuated by mini-or maxi-vacations, trying to turn them into obedient, easily classifiable "students." I would beg for the "school" to start at Kindergarten and formally teach all the kids how to properly behave. Not the shortcut of "Life Skills" month, by month, where the "theme" is "Citizenship" or "Kindness" or "Life-long-learner." Sure, you can train the kids what some term means, and they can spit back the month's "life-skill" like a pro. There was a great series of videos called, "Be Cool" by James Stanfield in Santa Barbara for grades K-3, 4-5, Middle School, High School, and they covered a series of needed social skills: Handling Conflict, Bullyiing, Teasing, Others Anger, Self Anger. His videos are older, but use an Assertiveness Training approach: Passive (Cold), Assertive (Cool) and Aggressive (Hot), that has real value in setting baseline expectations for kids. I wanted to have formal lessons on these critical things, class by class, grade by grade. Only one elementary school ever went with the program. Class by class, grade level by grade level, I went in and taught the kids the baseline expectations of how to behave. Each video was about ten minutes long. There would be some conflict related to "bullying" or "teasing" or "anger" and it would show two negative / ineffective strategies of Aggressive / Hot and Passive / Cold. Then the Assertive / Calm (Cool) strategy, followed by a review. Then, we would practice the approach and I used lots of positive reinforcement. It worked great, because after the first few lessons, all of us had a set of expectations that kids had seen actual models for. But, school behavioral expectations are usually established using the old-fashioned approach of teachers, staff, and administrators shunning, punishing, separating, criticizing, shaming, setting apart, isolating the "bad" kids. We call it "old school" but there is no such thing as an "old school" approach that ever worked to begin with. Kids come from a myriad type of homes with such different expectations. So, putting the "dunce" in the corner is no different than isolating the kid against the wall, on a bench, in "time out" because they don't fit the model. Schools are supposed to use Positive Reinforcement, but most schools do it badly. Every time a kid does what is "good" the kids should get some reinforcement. It's hard work. We should be glad that 99% of the time things are going well, and strongly reinforce those kids who are choosing to do what is right. Instead, schools, and parents usually spend 99% of their verbal effort correcting "bad" behavior. Paying attention to "bad" behavior is like picking at a scab, until it bleeds again, and never heals, and leaves a nasty scar. Even if schools did use PBIS correctly, Positive Behavior Intervention, and Support, it really needs to be: Positive Behavior Instruction, Intervention, and Support, because we need to formally teach kids exactly what the behavioral expectations are for handling our own, and other's emotions, behaviors, and expectations: a game-within-a-game, and school is a type of game. Some kids take until high school before they finally drop-out of the game, having never become "good" students. But, many more kids drop out of school emotionally, and mentally, because it's too much about "good grades" and "blue ribbons" and stuff some kids just don't care about, or aren't really good at. Not to mention they might have homes with terrible things going on. Or, homes where parents are just not modeling behaviors that cross over to the schools very well. Or, parents who also failed at the game of school, or life itself. Or, don't have time for their kids. Or, worse of all maybe, parents who model very anti-social behaviors, or ignore their kids, etc,. etc. Twenty years I tried to get schools to help formally teach these expectations, and model for the kids how to "succeed" and positively-reinforce the progress towards the appropriate behaviors for the game of school, and life beyond and after school. A creative type, I guess. "We don't have time for that," or "Kids should know how to act," etc. So, instead of having the Pyramid of Interventions on it's solid, large, flat base of spending much time formally teaching these expectations in early school, and increasingly less time teaching these throughout the 12 years of school, most schools flip the pyramid upside-down. They spend relatively little time on teaching and intervening in a pro-active, positively-reinforcing manner in the early years. And, sadly, spend increasingly more time correcting and managing "problem" behavior as kids get older, stronger, more willful, and physically larger, and more sophisticated in their efforts to disrupt the systems. Actually, there's a Model for how to do all this stuff in the idealized, "American School Counselors Association" on levels of Academics, Social Skills, and College / Career. But, since most States and most schools refuse to spend time formally teaching all kids these behaviors and life-skills, only a small percentage of students "succeed" however they do. A few states mandate such an approach. Most just take "problem kids" and punish them into some form of so-called compliance. And, most do increasingly more of that over time, which is the Pyramid of Interventions flipped upside-down, with almost no positive interventions in the early years, and a huge investment in handling an increasingly entrenched, but smaller number of "problem-kids" who disrupt classrooms, lunch-rooms, recesses, busses, and entire schools if they become bullies or... school shooters. But, the solution requires a time and energy investment that 99.9% of schools and administrators don't want to invest in. Thus, I spent most of my time working with those very few "problem" children. When, I could have spent most of my time teaching all the kids the same skills that I taught to just a few kids. Generally, those few "problem kids" did not "generalize" the lessons I taught them into the classroom, bus, lunch-room, etc., and continued to be "problem kids." Because, part of those lessons was helping the teacher's to implement and learn those strategies so that the entire classroom, school, lunchroom, bus, were all using those same sets of behavior expectations. So, in short, I wasted my life. Basically. I wanted to change the schools, and teach them how to help kids succeed. But, school isn't really about helping kids. It's about jobs. And, if we took time to teach kids how to behave, that means less time to teach kids some lesson, on say, The Lifeskill of Being a Life-long Learner, or Algebra, or whatever. And, the more kids that can spit back the lesson, the better. Teaching kids how to formally behave better doesn't start to actually show results until about week 8 or 9 after once per week lessons. And, the system isn't about the kids. It's about all the b.s. that looks like it's about the kids.

Yep.. I’m a very creative person as well as neurotic and about 50/50 on conscientiousness but it is so difficult everyday especially these days finding yourself having to succumb to certain boxes in society but they don’t fully align with who you are, I get ideas all day long and it sucks having to go to a box made by society just to keep surviving, society enjoys the thought of creative people, but experiencing it is horrible sometimes, I just have to figure out my own way I guess. The whole System makes me anxious

The monster under the bed analogy just blew my mind...

Jordan has refined his speech to a degree that makes one marvel when you compare this lesson (wich in awsome) with later classes regarding the same subject. Impressive!!

as many children know, sometimes boxes are very hard to get out of.

Unfortunately, if we creative people want to identify our purpose and have any chance at ever fulfilling it, we do indeed have to damage our psyche to rebuilt it back up in an oriented way that is functional in the world. And it's pretty damn painful and uncomfortable to do that but it's also totally worth it. Face your suffering as soon as you possibly can so you can get it out of the way!

This is a great explanation...no wonder creative ppl like myself have a difficulty trying to fit in.

hot diggity this guy's mind is so valuable, love you always JBP

Being an artist is weird, it's not like a normal job, putting block A into box X I can't tell whether or not what I create is going to be beautiful or not.

The hard part is working to survive while creative endeavors are built. Being single helps tremendously. Having energy after working hard is hard part.

My creative side, that of music has been something more than monetary like my day gig.its given me an outlet of meditation ,a place where peace exist,a feeling of being alive instead of enduring life,have made $ to which would be the icing on that cake

Very true, as a creative person myself I have felt this

Thanks for sharing

I've been in the arts all my life and I have to be. It used to be possible to be fashionably poor. In other words, to trade money for time and still live well. Since the turn of the century this has become increasingly difficult if not impossible. Now I can barely keep a roof over my head but to work full time in some cubicle ....well... I might as well kill myself because spending even 20 hours a week doing that is the Upper Hell for me. I have so many skills but not for corporate America. It's really a problem in this economy to utilize my skills for money and it is really hard to make lots of money as an artist unless you're famous and there's a mafia around that. Several.

Creative people like chaos and society doesn't want anything to do with that.

Omg ... I have been looking for a documentary or talk on this subject for years .....😍😍

BEARDS on creative men(obviously) show me the same sign as "burnt pizzas, forgetting appointments, not answering the front door to postmen/women who are delivering next doors post from the internet to you, ignoring or putting off phone calls, leaving emails un-opened for a week or two, not going to another works re-union because the job you worked at killed your creation(as did the others), ignoring noisy seagulls which seem to be hovering further inland than any of them should, forgetting to visit relatives............ These signs to me are complete FOCUS on CREATIVITY".... ...and boy, it's hard to come by in a modern world filled with noise, confusion and products none of us really need. I forgot one....my non-creative wife arriving home from her boring job, launching in to me with "what have you been up to all day?...the grass hasn't been cut and those dishes are still there from this morning"... "I wrote sixteen ideas for songs today...all ready to put into a recording studio"... Wife: "WHATEVER...i don't suppose you got around to popping yesterday's mail for next door around to them have you?" Me: "Last year THEY(our neighbours) ordered 221 items from the internet which ended up here....my guess is that one of them must be creative and NOT answering the doorbell....wish i could pull that one off a little better!!....especially with our postmen who knows what i do for a living and hunts me down relentlessly for a bloody signature for his delivery" TRUE CREATIVES will get what i'm firing off about.

Your biggest strength usually is your achilles heel.

well said metaphors in this video

Kurt Vonnegut addressed the oppression of creative people in his early 1960's story "Harrison Bergeron". Can happen. Has happened. Is happening.

There are endless possibilities for creativity. Boxes are good if they are only half of the situation - they represent form. Freedom without form is not creativity, it’s chaos. Form without freedom is stifling. Find a balance between freedom and form. Finding a creative niche that pays the bills is essential so that a creative can be eventually freed up to pursue their true passion independently. Otherwise they become beholden to a patron of some sort - generally academic, government or commercial interests that will hijack creativity and force it into profitable or ideological moulds.

Constructive criticism works both ways! When you take the liberty to critique something you set a standard for yourself in juxtaposition. Which is why critical thinking is the only way to improve ones situation.

I don't know the best thing I ever did for myself is accept that it's not everyone else's fault that I don't fit in, and I can't expect my creative pursuits to be monetized without moulding them in some way to be a viable commodity. Yeah it sucks man boo hoo but it pays to learn how to make yourself happy and not have it's source be circumstance, sure it's nice to believe we can do whatever we want if we work hard for it but that just isn't how reality is, no matter who you are we all get left with no option but to see as much good as we can in our experience

unknown unknowns is a cool concept

If you have that conflict between creativity and societal expectations, take charge. Figure out how you can be creative within those expectations. Be productive and disciplined, and build your creativity around that until you can transcend the expectations. Dont complain, it's not going to help. Its hard to subordinate yourself and focus on one thing when you want to do everything. But if you do one thing, at least youre doing something. If you try yo do everything, you'll end up doing nothing.

im 100% openness. i run into this issue all the time

So true...😥

This is 10000% accurate

Which lecture/longer video is this clipped from? I want to watch the whole thing

"what leaps out of you in the darkness... is dragon of chaos" - jordan peterson :D

Has anyone noticed that every time u watch a Jordan Petersen video, he just happens to address some issue that u were thinking about that very day?

Limits incite rebellion and contradiction breeds innovation.

So I’m thankful that I have a job that pays me money so I don’t starve. Great. I get maybe an hour or two each day to play guitar.

I have damaged my psyche! 😭

1:15 - Boolean algebra is the logic inherent in human language, but boolean algebra is insufficient to describe characteristics of statistical groups.

To know one is creative is a pain to the psychic on itself.

I find it funny that for Jordan it is so self-evident that children should never be allowed to play outside in the dark (probably in the USA), while in my country it is completely normal and children could play outside all night long without ever being in danger :)

''You have to critisize with gratitude'' Evil Triad: arrogance, recentment and deceit 5:13

He always seems to go off on a tangent with these lectures. I mean he started off talking about creative people and resentment for societal constraint, then moved into negative emotions, then moved into Jungian cognitive functions with the Hero/Nemesis. You can draw a relative line through those different subject matters, but what is the ultimate point he was trying to make? It just seems like a stream of consciousness. Educated ramblings.

5:26 here, Dr Peterson says one of the very few things I do not agree with. I do not have such a battle going on in me, though I can see how there could be, and I totally see his point. But I have never once in my 51 years ever done anything to deliberately make things worse. Even the times where I have acted out of spite, it was always in response to someone else’s behavior and always with the intention of something positive coming of it (like maybe my spiteful comment with prompt the other person to reflect) I’m not saying this to be contrarian, or to put myself on some type of pedestal for being virtuous in my intentions. Actually, I think it’s the way I’m wired neurologically. As an aspie, I am naturally inclined to want to systematize in order to solve problems. Is there anybody who systematizes in order to *create* problems? Well, psychopathy and sociopathy might account for that. I figure we aspies represent kind of the diametric opposite of such pathologies. Of course, so far I’m only talking about intention. While I ever intend to make things worse, sometimes I inadvertently do just that. Again, Aspergers.

If you can ride that dragon of chaos you will come up with the best art, poetry, drama, music, inventions. That's why creative people are often misunderstood by the normies. Thats why the left hates and attacks the arts. It's sometimes why high creatives have short lives but leave much beauty behind.

Jordan is talking about the Hindu Trinity God Shiva, the Creator/Destroyer. Remember that's the one surrounded be the circle of fires, who has 4 arms and is clutching the Drums of Time in two of them.. Symbol of the evolution of existence. Creativity requires first Destruction, a reorganization of the matrix. Keep lecturing, Jordan. Read up on Joseph Campbell and also the Bhaghavad Gita.

6:48 HA HA HAAA!! What can I say? LoLz!

Creative people are always demeaned by the group and especially their bosses. I was once told by my boss not to use such big words and the other employees laughed at it during the meeting. Most people are just trying to survive in a world that they do not understand either technically or politically and are threatened by people that understand science. Unfortunately the sociopaths have taken over, don't believe me? Look around!

"Damage to your own psyche." Is it wrong that I love the idea of idealism and fantasy because there are moments in life that drag me down from a dream I know will always be out of reach, but that feeling of waking up to reality is strangely euphoric in its melancholy as if you woke up from a dream, you don't know where to go from there or what to do, but anything leads to something new? It feels... *_different._* I like to call it the "descent into sanity". And I'm just wondering if that falls under "damage to your own psyche", since it seems like a strange relationship with reality, to actively reject it knowing you long to return to it.

I admire creative people. Must feel like a superpower to have creativity. Same with boom smart people. I'm not creative or intelligent.

I don't know if the opposite of gratitude is resentment for me. I tend to hate when people or companies do pretty much everything right, 99% the way there, and they are the 'best of the best,' mind you, the top 5%, but fail to understand how much potential or power they have and do 10 to 1000 times worse than otherwise because of simple ignorance.

Isn't that reflective of St. Michael, a battle within.

The dragon of chaos is the thing that leaps out of me in the darkness... I wondered what that smell was

The movie, RED DRAGON.... by eating the painting, he was consumed by it 🤔. The chaos took over & made him way more focused & smart. If this way of thinking is so wrong, why is everyone captivated by it 🤔 not all people with different minds need a cell or a tombstone. The cell is our own skulls. The tombstones are everyone else looking down on us..

@0:52 *Coincidentia oppositorum ?

One of the many outcomes of misused/mis guided criticism- unintended oppression.

I am very creative and very resentful indeed. Oh shit.

8:05 Order, Chaos and tyranny.

I'm 67 and have been painting for 35 years and sold many paintings over the years and still don't know why I paint after all these years but it's something I must do & will always do to feel whole I guess....been through a lot of bull shit in my life and quite a few assholes and bitches I'd love to get even with but I don't because I don't like jail (already been there for a little bit) so I guess to feel productive and positive... I paint ... maybe I just answered my own question.

👍

I would have gladly given up creative ability for really great mathematical and computer science patients. I say patients because that stuff is way too tedious and monotonous for me.

"Criticize with gratitude" damn

Order is the Great Father. Chaos is the Great Mother.

Binary computing is being over overtaken by Quantum Computing, where qubits |0> and |1> are mixed to various degrees as required. Human are getting more and more. Perhaps we can now look deeper into the chaos.

You and I are going to become fellow countrymen in a new nation Canzuk I think that is pretty neat.

Dobro ytro!

Terence Mckenna would have loved his idea on the marriage of opposites.

does anyone here feel NOT creative? id like to believe my own struggle is due to my creativity but im afraid i just WANT to believe it and avoiding the real root cause of my problems. how do i know for sure not everyone is creative?

Question is how much we really need this bureaucracy

If you are creative enough you can figure out ways to be your own person and avoid the constraints.

That's me :D

There should be a Jordan Peterson type of counselor at every school.

When he said you are just a number out there it was a bit of a realization that we are nothing but a number and nothing else we are lost in the vastness of other numbers amongst us

Catagories, classifications, these are what? Their mouths are an open grave. Pray what does that tell you about the dangers of mythology? Why are parables superior to fables? I love JP cuz he always gets me going.

I keep saying. The problem is our society. I think we need to fight it, not be grateful for it. There are things about the existing structure we should be grateful for, but its essence, the concept that "we are all supposed to be drones, cogs in a wheel, etc... and that's just how it is so get your head down, boy" is nonsense and wrong. I don't think we always have to be respectful. We should always start with respect, though. In the beginning, when we have to address something that is wrong, someone in authority who perhaps is unaware that it's wrong, etc, respect, decency, reasoning, etc is the right way to make a difference. And often it works. But eventually, if people won't be reasonable, resentment and harsh words are appropriate. Lawyers, protest action, all of these things have their place. To not do these things and just "let it all go on" amounts into cowardice in the end. I don't see resentment as part of the "evil triangle". Arrogance is evil but resentment is simply a result of being continual oppressed. It is right to feel angry with stubborn people who simply wield power they shouldn't have instead of listening. Anger is a dangerous emotion, to be sure, and it takes inner strength to not let it spill over and become something evil, but anger is a natural thing. Bridled, and focussed it becomes a force for change. People like Martin Luther King got this right in history. Nelson Mandela, William Wilberforce... They directly addressed oppression and made a difference. That was anger turned to something good.

I think rarely anyone criticizes with gratitude anymore. Its more like demanding their way or total all out chaos erupts like babies fighting. Maybe its time we realize the balance is the best thing we can have. We are right wing and left wing because 2 wings keep us in flight. But together there is an eagle.

Man vs Animal (Duality of Self), Man vs Environment (Setting, Location, Demographic, mental/spiritual/emotional/physical position based on setting), Man vs Antagonist, Man vs Nature, Man vs God, Man vs The Unknown/Unseen, and Man vs Mortality. He’s speaking of the same conflicts they teach in 6th Grade English Composition. I hate that schools briefly touch on things in an abstract way, if they even touch on it at all which most things they don’t.

if im not afraid of being out in the dark, i actually prefer it. does that mean im the monster?

It's d&d-

I don't get how the 2nd half of this video relates to creative people. I also don't understand what the dragon of chaos is supposed to represent

Forced to be thankful by misdirected box people.

San

What makes Jordon Peterson an expert?

"Hospitals would run a lot better if they didn't have any patients"

1. society drawdown you. 2. you cry out for mercy and redemption. 3. the same Society offers you a new place of existence in a silver plate. 4. You spend the rest of your life resentful. You shouldn't self-pitty. This is the first mechanism by which a person is captured.

reply to this comment if you get stressed and overwhelmed by the work required to meet deadlines/goals

Ah . . . a new word about 5:43. *TYRANNARY.* Nah just kidding. I love and respect Dr. Peterson. A slip of the tongue can happen to anyone. He's human. Reminds me of a joke by Rodney Dangerfield from his *NO RESPECT* (1980) album. "Being gay could happen to anyone. (he's obviously performing in front of an audience) Could happen to you. Could happen to you. Could happen to you. Oh, it *did* happen to you. Well it's good to see you back in men's clothes again sir."

what are non creative people? rocks?

i am a complete loser failure creative with no market value but i refuse to blame society. my other friends get up and go to work every day. the problem is obviously me, but some would like me to pretend otherwise with them. i am not oppressed. i am a square peg in a round hole, there is little place for me in society, its totally my fault. and i know it. who you are, that is your fault and you will answer for it. blame none.

What happened to creativity in America? It died with the music. We used to have artists, now we have people checking off boxes. Every modern song in each genre can be played back to back and the same mood would be held until someone hit stop. It’s all depressed driven nonsense. Be immoral, be an addict, be a radical, get foresees that you have to be immoral, depressed, addicted and a radical.

Jordan has described my predicament to a T