Agreed fully

Lol learn ukemi. All the padding you need should already be on you, and you should know how to take a fall.

I mean it's not like they're throwing uchi-mata it's just simple, safer techniques...

Except for that one guy that did sode

@@SeanWinters I know Ukemi very well If u can’t see how certain falls would be dangerous on wood then cool but I can and have fallen out of throws from world class judoka It’s not the end of the world but there is a risk there especially for broken collar bones

If you implement the dagger I've found that once you see your opponent rush in you pull the dagger to actually avoid the grapple making wrestling kind of useless it kind of devolves from a duel to a knife fight

@@Gamingproish As it should be.

@@Gamingproish I see zero problem with this, wrestling should be used sparingly

Yes, it was common for people to carry daggers at the time of longsword treatises, some include defences against dagger, so including daggers would make it more historical.

Tournaments don't do it for safety reason. Try landing on your dagger with full force, I dare you.

This was aimed at the Judo community hence the usage of Judo terms

I tried instituting instruction in ringen with my group but most of the guys who cycled thru weren't interested and a number quit outright rather than do it. Sadly.

like an adult fighting a child... until they draw a dagger (which was common to carry along with your sword, and knives are still common to carry today) and stab/cut the crap out of you. Grappling with weapons (especially knives and pistols) is borderline suicide (for the person trying to grapple) when you don't have a compliant partner. Understanding grappling is an important aspect of any true MARTIAL system, because sometimes things go to complete crap... but we haven't bare-knuckle-boxed our way through a war in over 10,000 years, no reason to start now. Next up: why BJJ is an excellent base for a non-firearm fighting system in a modern army, which uses body armor and all sorts of pouches and bags attached to the soldier that makes it hard to roll/move around...

Making a lot of generalizations here. Grappling is not "borderline suicide". It's very effective, regardless of a compliant partner or not.@@wildrangeringreen

It is highly club dependent, I have my doubts that most do as a core part of training

@@thomastucker7317 We train it almost every class at The Forge. 👍

Really depends on club to club. Alot of clubs are so casual that people come in and just ignored all the grappling because all they want is to hit other people, and then complained when people take them down or disarmed them.

What are some of the names of the throws found in those treatises?

@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 They don't really give them names. It's more like "Here's a leg throw." when he's throwing someone over his leg, and "Here's another leg throw." To differentiate you'd have to make up your own names.

@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 A lot of the time they are just throw 1 Throw 1 counter By the historical masters and since many masters wrote about the same throws, throw one in a manuscript by one master will be different to throw one by a different master

@@haidner how convenient then that the Japanese have names (and standard translations!) that we can use without having to make up our own ones

@@holyknightthatpwns It wouldn't be a surprise if there were names within the different schools. A big part of the reason the European treatises were written was marketing, so the writers wanted to keep a lot back, thus encouraging people to hire them.

The protective gear would have to improve first.

@@day7141 I disagree. It's mostly about knowing how to throw people safely and knowing how to fall safely. Elbows and knees are already protected, the most likely thing to get hurt on the floor. Ive been thrown on grass, hardwood, blacktop, uneven cobblestone and been 100% fine. A shot to the wrist while I was wearing SPES heavies is my most significant injury thus far.

@@corrugatedcavalier5266 Anecdotal evidence is. I wouldn’t let my children learn from someone not using proper mats. I don’t care who you think you are. I have been this stuff for decades.

@@day7141 Yep, when you're learning you should definitely use mats. Of course there's an element of risk involved still, but there is plenty of risk with proper equipment as well. Whenever I talk to HEMA people the amount of injuries caused by feders even with good gear on far outweighs anything else. Whether at the sword or in the grapple, protective gear is only part of the equation.

@@corrugatedcavalier5266 Kids mate. If you want the sport to grow, as the rest of us that have been involved with it over the years, you need kids. As in you need to formulate a structured training program that is safe for children. Starting with break falls and growing from there. Just like the Japanese did when they rebuilt their Martial Arts.

for fun

Hi, thanks for the comment. The reason I went for sukui nage instead of morote gari is because there is a lift and drop instead of just a reaping of the legs. The difference is explained in this video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ldl2qrOnt6vcpI0.html

@@buckshistoricallongsword9412 As a judo shodan (black belt) I can tell you with great certainty that the lift won't change the classification. Sukui Nage has very different throwing mechanics. It enters with tori and uke facing the same direction. Typically tori will adopt a perpendicular stance and then slide in behind uke's front leg. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rLtmlK1j0Kzcn30.html

@@FairfaxJJ Morote Gari is a type of double leg, not all double legs are morote gari's. To my mind no reaping action, no Gari.

Not all double leg takedowns are morote gari. Morote gari is a reaping of both legs, in the clips above the legs are not reaped, the uke is lifted and dropped. Therefore they are sukui nage, not morote gari.

Thanks, I was thinking that's what it was, but couldn't remember the name... basically a sacrifice throw where you wrap up the arm and then spin and fall on it... (oversimplified of course)

@@robschneider6560 i might be wrong it might be soto makkikomi, not osoto. Still same idea. A big part of the throw is the leg stopping your opponent from stepping around

It looked to me like a maki komi

In wrestling, you'd call it a sagging headlock throw. It does not really correspond to any makikomi that I am familiar with, in Judo it might be classified as a low/kneeling koshi guruma.

​@@johnflais3776 With the koshi guruma he would be grabbing the opponent around the neck. I can not really see it because it is black on black. If he throws him by only the arm, I think it is a Soto-makikomi. I can not really see.

@@bossfights-extra Sorry, my mistake, I thought he had the head in, but he basically grabs both arms from underneath. That's one of the problems in HEMA - it's almost always black on black :D Anyway, I know only of a few wrestling manuals that show throws like that, one is Shozo Sasahara's "Fundamentals of Scientific wrestling" (Fila 1978), pg. 111. He calls it "both arm hold waist throwing", but then again, with all the respect I have for him as a coach, he tends to deviate from the common English terminology quite a bit (besides drawing inspiration from Judo and Sumo in his technique variations). Most people in wrestling would probably call it a double underhook hip throw or double underhook sagging throw, depending on the execution.

or at the very least, follow the rules of Glima (Icelandic wrestling) and whoever can get up without the opponent having a hold of them without their back to the enemy first "wins". The implication in a MARTIAL situation is that at point, you could grab a weapon to finish it, or your buddy could run up and stab the guy on the ground.

Kinda, but not exactly. Matt Easton did a video on how historical European masters responded to Japanese martial arts (kendo and judo/Jiu jitsu.) The European masters apparently didn’t care too much for kendo, as it was similar enough to their own fighting they didn’t learn new concepts from it. However, when they saw judo, they were vastly interested. I would highly recommend the video, Matt makes some good stuff. I think the thing that really needs to be remembered when comparing HEMA and Japanese martial arts is that European cultures had lots of resources and exposure to other cultures, so they developed weapons and armor that were way superior to that of a Japanese army. On the other end of the spectrum, Japan lacked resources and exposure, as such they developed not so much their arms and armor (not as much as Europe at least) but rather focused on grappling like judo and then either a knife or submission to finish a grounded enemy. I’m sure HEMA had plenty of throws, but from what I can tell, judo had a fair number more, and their practitioners were more ready to deploy them.

@@jonahwashburn1163 A lot of the things you talking sound weird if not wrong. Judo isn't that old, and I doubt there is much as far as throws goes that would impress western wrestles. Maybe the ground work, but then again it depends on the Judoka's line, Kodokan or Butoku Kai / Kosen. Gracies' teacher Maeda, who contrary to what some say was from kodokan and not Kosen, says in a letter to a friend in Japan that his ground wrestling improved after he learned Catch wrestling. Two other Gracies teachers, Yano (Kosen judo) and Tatu (Luta Livre Brasileira / Catch Wrestling) faced each other three times, with Tatu winning the two without the Gi (Kimono / Pajama) and losing the one with the Gi due to fatigue from grip fighting. But this is a totally different rabbit hole. And the samurai armour, mostly lamellar and weapons were just ok afaik. And the japanese had contact with their neighbors for most of their history.

they are universal, the ones in the manuals are also some of the ones in Judo. The human body only works in so many ways. Its like how some Katana stances are the same as Longsword, both are used typically 2 handed so ofc they are gonna be similar.

Sword fencing

Judo is wrestling. Not a big fan of japanese words when english do the work, but there is no reason to treat it as a attack as some people are doing in the comments section ...

if you want to learn one. Judo. Yeah people say its less effective without a Gi but its because thats what they watch in the UFC. You can grab the pants or shorts irl, no rules is no rules. You will rarely fight a naked opponent & besides Judo still teaches grips that work with no Gi if you ask the teacher for them. Palm to palm or palm to wrist grips.

Wrestling is all through the treatises. With swords. It is well documented that grappling was done with sharps. Your belief is completely wrong.

A complete fighter knows all ranges

Close with and destroy the enemy

I mean, if you're going for a non lethal approach if possible it makes sense to follow your opponent to the ground in order to restrain them, but at that point you're really doing ground work wrestling not fencing. Also some grappling throws cant really be done without following your opponent to the ground, at least not safely whether that's in regards to making sure your opponent doesnt land on their head or just making sure your own legs dont get crushed the wrong way as they come down

There's a lot of good reasons to fall on top of someone. It adds to the impact, does more damage (in many forward throws you end up slamming your hip on their soft belly), potentially stops them from fighting back effectively due to the shock and puts you straight into a hold where you can restrain and control them. Also, sometimes to make it work you have to commit so much that you're gonna loose your balance anyway, so its better to land in an advantageous position

Look up jui jitsu and ground and pound dude

There is martial reason to follow someone to the ground... When you are on top you are in a good position to finish the fight, either by ground and pound, chokes, joint locks, or in a medieval context by using your dagger. If you had to defeat someone in plate armour, taking them down so you have better control while stabbing through gaps could be a good idea

This was aimed at the Judo community hence the usage of Judo terms

Do you feel the same way about pommel striking?

@@henryc7548 Short answer: No I don’t feel the same way with pommel striking. Long answer: Pommel striking, striking with the cross guard, trapping the hands or opponents sword with the grip of your sword. Are all techniques where the sword is used. Therefore in my mind, it is the mark of a good fencer to use them. As soon as we abandon/let go of the sword on purpose, it´s not really fencing any more. don’t get me wrong, people did tackle and wrestle each other historically. And it works, if you want to win a real fight. But you have chosen to fight me with a sword, so why not use it?

Its is not a mark of a bad fencer, its is a mark of effective fencer, throwing techniques are important part of many hema manuals, George Silver even believes that the one fencer that knows grappling always wins. Samurai and possibly Chinese and others also incorporated grappling into swordfighting. That's basically what Japanese jiujitsu is

@@pavolverescak1712 I don’t understand your reasoning. Grappling and throws might be mentioned in the historical sources, but so are kicks to the knees, joint locks, daggers hidden in boots and guns hidden in coats. Japanese sources describe samurai throwing sand, coins or clothing in the opponents face to distract them. But I don’t see your point. Should we include this in longsword? Should we allow punches and kicks in longsword? Do you want to include punches or knifes in jujutsu as well?

@@rasmusskaarup8945 Your point is valid but I go to HEMA clubs to simulate how I would kill another human given we have weapons from medieval times. OFc it's better to do max damage with weapon but sometimes you do what you can. If I could cut with a sword I would but in this moment I see only option to punch to get initiative for example. Or elbow, kick, punch him if we are about to meet in kron. Obviously only poking with longsword with one hand just to try your luck or constantly throwing it will only annoy clubmates and impede your progression as a fighter. Every sport has boundaries - otherwise one can start argue that he will poison his opponent instead of fencing with him. I'm for - "Take your weapon(s) go kill him now without leaving the area" part of this continuum - how organize this without traumatism and is it a HEMA is a different question tho.