Kastrup's Contradiction with AI & Idealism (Intelligent Universe Theory)

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Polymath Park

Polymath Park

Ай бұрын

#consciousness #analytic #idealism #philosophyofmind
Kastrup's Model insists that intelligence and consciousness permeate all things, why does this have to stop concerning silicone machines? Does intelligent consciousness have to be able to pee in order to be considered human-like?
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✨ Patrick Compton is an autodidact polymath, independent researcher, multi-instrumentalist, and woodworker focusing mostly on existential psychotherapy, sociology, and evolutionary psychology. He implements pragmatic approaches to conquering mental and physical disorders, contends with partisan paradigms in education and politics, and seeks to widen perspectives by establishing transparency between the various sciences.
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Many excerpts from his most recent books, “How to be Less Disappointed in Humanity” and "The Diagnostic Default" are referenced in his video series. He plays the Chinese guzheng and 8-string guitar and has released various albums on Bandcamp and here on KZfaq combining Eastern and Western influences, incorporating recorded sounds from nature.
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Пікірлер: 24
@Sam-hh3ry
@Sam-hh3ry Ай бұрын
Assuming AI can become conscious assumes that consciousness is reducible to/explainable in terms of some functional thing/some physical parameter. More likely (imo) it's necessarily a brute fact at some level that "consciousness is associated specifically with arrangement X but not arrangement Y or Z and that's all we can say," whatever that actually ends up being. This follows from Kastrup's idealism, which claims that all matter is an encoded representation of some mental process (belonging to an individual or not). The relationship between a code and the thing it represents is necessarily arbitrary, and also the thing being represented ought not to have more than one possible representation (a car doesn't need two speedometers, for example). I'll also mention that Kastrup would be the first to point out that intelligence and consciousness are two different things. Intelligence is a definable and (in principle) measurable thing because it's ultimately just a question of behavior (structure and function to use Chalmer's terms). Intelligent behaviors can certainly be simulated/instantiated, but it's not at all clear what simulating consciousness would mean since the problematic aspect of consciousness is that it's specifically NOT reducible to structure or function.
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
exactly, and because it's nonreducible, we ought to remain wary of both apophatic and catophatic reasoning when trying to describe it. In these cases, I believe baseline respect and empathy are key, similar to how we treat the pets we don't understand yet respect.
@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices
@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices 6 күн бұрын
consciousness/Consciousness: “that which knows”, or “the state of being aware”, from the Latin prefix “con” (with), the stem “scire” (to know) and the suffix “osus” (characterized by). To put it succinctly, consciousness is the SUBJECTIVE component in any subject-object relational dynamic. The concept of consciousness is best understood in comparison with the notion of sentience. Cf. “sentience”. As far as biologists can ascertain, the simplest organisms (single-celled microbes) possess an exceedingly-primitive form of sentience, since their life-cycle revolves around adjusting to their environment, metabolizing, and reproducing via binary fission, all of which indicates a sensory perception of their environment (e.g. temperature, acidity, energy sources and the presence of oxygen, nitrogen, minerals, and water). More complex organisms, such as plants, have acquired a far greater degree of sentience, since they can react to the light of the sun, to insects crawling on their leaves (in the case of carnivorous plants), excrete certain chemicals and/or emit ultrasonic waves when being cut. At this point it is imperative to consult the entry “sentience” in the Glossary of this Holy Scripture. According to this premise, the simplest forms of animal life possess sentience, but no noticeable semblance of true consciousness. As a general rule, those animals that have at least three or four senses, combined with a simple brain, possess a mind but lack an intellect. Higher animals (notably mammals) have varying levels of intelligence but only humans have a false-ego (sense of self). Thus, human consciousness is constituted of the three components: the mind, the intellect, and the pseudo-ego (refer to Chapter 05 of my Holy Scripture). There is a rather strong correlation between brain complexity and level of consciousness, explaining why humans alone are capable of self-awareness. In this case, “self-awareness” is not to be confused with “self-recognition”, which is a related but quite distinct phenomenon, found also in several species of non-human animals, in which an animal is able to recognize itself in a mirror or some other reflective surface. “Self-awareness” refers to the experience where a human over the age of approximately three years, is conscious of the fact that he or she knows (that is, aware) that he or she is aware. Obviously, in the case of a child, he or she may need to be prompted in order to first be acquainted with this understanding. For example an adult could ask the child: “Do you know that you have a toy car?” “Yes!” “And do you KNOW that you know you have a toy car?” “Umm...I think so...yes!”. In contemporary spiritual circles (as well as in several places within this book), the capitalized form of the word usually, if not always, refers to Universal Consciousness, that is, an Awareness of awareness (otherwise known as The Ground of All Being, et altri). sentience: the capacity to experience feelings or sensations, as distinguished from perceptions and cognition. The word was first coined by philosophers in the 1630s for the concept of an ability to feel, derived from Latin “sentientem” (a feeling), in order to distinguish it from the ability to think/reason. Therefore, sentience ought not be confused with consciousness, though the two are closely related. As far as biologists can ascertain, the simplest organisms (single-celled microbes) possess an exceedingly-primitive form of sentience, since their life-cycle revolves around adjusting to their environment, metabolizing, and reproducing via binary fission, all of which indicates a sensory perception of their environment (e.g. temperature, acidity, energy sources and the presence of oxygen, nitrogen, minerals, and water). More complex organisms, such as plants, have acquired a far greater degree of sentience, since they can react to the light of the sun, to insects crawling on their leaves (in the case of carnivorous plants), excrete certain chemicals and/or emit ultrasonic waves when being cut. In animal life, there are up to five sensory organs which can detect external stimulants or percepts. ADDITIONALLY, many forms of metazoans have acquired a degree of consciousness, in which a subject-object polarity is established. Therefore, when carnists claim that “plants have feelings too” upon being confronted with vegan ideology, they may be correct (at least in a rather diffuse sense of the term “feelings”), so the most logical reason for being vegan is not because plants are completely without sentience, but simply due to the fact that humans are an herbivorous species. If Homo sapiens were naturally omnivores or carnivores, then no sane person would promote veganism. In summary, all forms of organic life are, by definition, sentient, yet TRUE consciousness is found in those animal species that have a certain level of intelligence (that is, as a general rule, vertebrates, though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this general rule). Cf. “conscious".
@BryanWhys
@BryanWhys Ай бұрын
Cool 😎
@neilcreamer8207
@neilcreamer8207 Ай бұрын
I don’t know much about Kastrup’s later work but read all of his early books up to Brief Peeks Beyond and talked with him a lot back then. I went on to study non-duality. So I’m not sure whether it’s you or I who has his view slightly wrong when I disagree with the statement that, “Kastrup's Model insists that intelligence and consciousness permeate all things …”. It might be a semantic mistake on my part so I’ll argue from my own viewpoint which is that there is nothing to all of those things but the intelligence and consciousness we see. And those things include the experience of being a human being in a body. Whatever is intelligent and conscious is not human or personal but it’s an easy mistake to make. From the inference that we are human we infer that other humans in our experience share our experience (theory of mind). We make an association between the complexity of behaviour we observe and consciousness and use this as a criterion to infer what’s going on inside other objects from rocks and silicon chips to cats and crows. In truth, we only infer conscious interiority because we think that we’re experiencing from inside a human being. Whether this implies solipsism is a matter for debate. The single mind implied by solipsism could not belong to a human since the human is only a part of a single dream experience. In any case, we find the idea of solipsism distasteful and we can imagine alternatives where a single mind could experience the same dream from multiple points of experience. Even if it is solipsism, we are all of it whether the experience seems to be inside or outside and I agree with you that it is better to be kind, considerate and grateful. Why not?
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
I think the debate on solipsism is still open. His interviews where he describes solipsism seem comprehensive. I use the term "intelligence permeating everything" based on the example that kastrup tends to use, shopenhaur's "great eye of nature that looks out through every creature." and ask, does this have to be qualified as "organic creatures only?" based on sara walker and other physical theorists, there are many ways that human-style intelligence and consciousness might exist in silicone or other forms.
@neilcreamer8207
@neilcreamer8207 Ай бұрын
@@polymathpark Of the three possibilities, that consciousness might be in all forms, in just some forms, or in none of them, I think the idea that humans are unique is the least likely. The nature of the Turing Test and Chalmers’ discussion of the philosophical zombie idea both highlight that inference is all we have to guide us. Given that it is just inference, it surely follows that the distinctions we make are probably arbitrary and anthropocentric. By the way, I think that the same faulty inference is at the root of our ideas about living and non-living things.
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
@@neilcreamer8207 right. I guess the qusetion is, how do we humbly yet accurately guide our inference, and how do we utilize consensus?
@SpiritualBrainstorm
@SpiritualBrainstorm Ай бұрын
@@polymathpark @neilcreamer8207 As regards solipsism, I think we should try to see things in reverse. This single mind's biggest problem is preference: choosing *what* to think, and also, slowing down its thought. When you close your eyes, and imagine a pink giraffe, there is no "lag" between the moment you think it and the moment you see/experience it in your mind's eye. You didn't have to take a pen and paper and draw it progressively. So the reason why there are seemingly "separate" minds (like yours and mine) is, in my analysis, just a strategy for a single mind to navigate through it's thoughts and find out what it should "think" next, as well as slowing down this thinking process. Materiality and especially, biological life, is the most sophisticated strategy to "slow down" time. Humans can have thoughts, and then contemplate the process of materializing those thoughts, and as they unfold, course correct those thoughts, which is impossible for a single mind with no limitations. That pink giraffe appeared instantly in your mind. But on paper, you can throw the paper away and start over, or decide to change pens in the middle of the drawing. Essentially, what we bring to this mind is also a method for distributing its "focused attention". You could say that any and all "energy" is just "awareness" or attention of this single mind, distributed across multiple virtual selves. When you eat a fruit, it's as if you're "swallowing" a bit more attention (you're forcing the fruit to "pay attention" to you by eating it, and so this single mind's attention is focused more on you, which prolongs your seeming impression of existing). We exist with much greater intensity on a stage in front of 10000 people than sitting alone in a hut in the middle of nowhere. As regards AI, I did a video also, looking at the inside/outside connundrum: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z9t8nJR6mK2Wfmg.html
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
@@SpiritualBrainstorm oh nice I'll check it out. So imagination /internal imagery is tricky, I think there are different forms. For instance I try to imagine sheep jumping over a fence to sleep, and I put a lot of effort into placing a number on each one, maintaining the coherence of the sheep's body, head, and face, and the fence. But so called "intrusive thoughts" can be highly vivid. There's hyperphantasia and aphantasia too, wide range of Salience and vididness from person to person
@BecSeth88
@BecSeth88 20 күн бұрын
I agree it's a good practice to talk to ChatGPT as I would to a human. Did you enjoy this particular conversation between McGilchrist, Levin and Watson? Iain McGilchrist, Michael Levin and Richard Watson conversation #3 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/oppllNSm1szac4U.htmlsi=aD7P0IZVkmF8QLWA I swear recommendation algorithms are at the point of leading me to peak contemplative experiences weekly now. 🤣 Not so organised but my notes on it: Archetective vs connective structures Concatenation vs flow Linear vs systems (nonlinear)? Anti fragile is making adaptations all the time so these systems don't have the cataclysmic need to change when an archetective state shifts suddenly. How is this like our psychology? How could this concept have driven our altruism in the first place? Selection pressure for anti-fragility through dynamic co-operation? Archetective = selfish = less responsive. Connective structures have flow, are fluid and more robust. Animatedness as an ability to respond quickly. Talking about living vs non living things (or machines) So I'm thinking maybe for living things it is the ability to respond to a range of things, not just force? Because it's not only about speed. And this is what makes living things "altruistic"/ or co-operative- being able to respond to a greater range of things more quickly. Because if we think about digital machines computers and AI they can also respond (process) quickly.
@The.Watcher.2024
@The.Watcher.2024 Ай бұрын
Yes, we are all connected according to Bernardo And, yes, there's a gap in the reasoming you gave -- but it's not bernardo's reasoning Also, yes, calculators are better at math... Think theyre conscious? Thank them?
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
a calculator isn't doing what I'm describing here? Not to judge, but this may be interpreted as a strawman argument.
@The.Watcher.2024
@The.Watcher.2024 Ай бұрын
@@polymathpark a calculator is better at things than humans; you appeared to say that a machine that outperforms humans is perhaps sentient If you are going to make an arbitrary distinction between a computer that can write legal arguments vs one that can add up numbers very quickly, then you're making a pretty baseless argument, since computation is the basis of both activities (But this is the only sort of argument open to those who want to generate consciousness through complexity, which Bernardo warns against trying to do [in some ways; in other ways, he believes that perhaps we could create a computer that experiences -- but that it would have little to do with today's silicon chips)
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
@@The.Watcher.2024 oh Im thinking more of multimodal systems that can take on many tasks, like the general processing systems of cognitive science
@The.Watcher.2024
@The.Watcher.2024 Ай бұрын
@@polymathpark right, which is just multiple calculators... There's no reason to think it has fundamentally different properties than a calculator (i.e., experience) -- unless maybe one doesn't understand the workings of the fundamentally similar machines
@The.Watcher.2024
@The.Watcher.2024 Ай бұрын
,lol.. what? Ai cant do paint throwing style art...?
@The.Watcher.2024
@The.Watcher.2024 Ай бұрын
You seem to be conflating intelligence and consciousness
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
I mean to express that the way the human throws paint is embodied and enacted cognition that invloves the culmination of all of their years and experiences influencing the little twitches in their arm as they throw. Which isnt much of a human muse to be left with lol but at least it's something.
@The.Watcher.2024
@The.Watcher.2024 Ай бұрын
@@polymathpark pretty sure an assembly-line robot from 10 years ago can throw paint in a way that's influenced by the wear and tear on their body
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Ай бұрын
@@The.Watcher.2024 idk these are just theories. The entire human muse will likely be replaced eventually. Maybe the only difference will be the sodium and potassium and wear on the endocrine system in humans and the friction in the gears and joints in machines making them stutter in movement. Here's hoping!
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