Kawai Piano Action - RM3 vs Grand Feel (GF)

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PianoManChuck

10 жыл бұрын

A comparison between the RM3 and Grand Feel actions found in Kawai Models such as the VPC1, CA95, MP11, etc.

Пікірлер: 85

@john-moes 8 жыл бұрын

Thanks for making the video, beautiful clear overview and explanation Chuck!.

@AndrewColyerMusic 3 жыл бұрын

DUDE - thank you SO MUCH for this video! I know it's six years old, but THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR! Since we're going to be home for about another year due to the pandemic, I'm trying to decide what new digital piano I can purchase that will be "as close to acoustic piano" as possible. VERY HELPFUL video here! Great job, and thanks again! - Andrew Colyer, New York

@gustavocarletti347 7 жыл бұрын

Great review Chuck, thanks for your time.

@mariobianchi3891 9 жыл бұрын

That's a very clear and useful comparison. Thank you.

@rudigerolschewsky8803 9 жыл бұрын

Thank you for making this video. It really helped me deciding for a Kawai Digital Piano.

@bungeecum7277 8 жыл бұрын

+Rüdiger Olschewsky Which one did you get?

@ngharrison 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Chuck. I own the VPC-1 and love the action. Was always curious about the Grand Feel though. I tried it and even though it has a slightly lighter feel at the pivot point (which I prefer) the RM3 still provides me with an enjoyable playing experience.

@pjny123 Жыл бұрын

Chuck, what a great video! As a reviewer wrote several months ago, this is still such an important & relevant discussion despite being 8 years old, as both instruments are still being manufactured. And also the information about key lengths and action is just fascinating and so helpful to understand. I also gained a lot from your video on the differences between the Kawai VCP1 and the MP11. Absolutely critically important for someone like me searching for a digital piano with an acoustic feel ... You're really helping me decide what to purchase - THANK YOU so very much! Just brilliant.

@PianoManChuck Жыл бұрын

Glad this review helped you out. Thanks for your comment!!

@pjny123 Жыл бұрын

@@PianoManChuck You bet - please keep producing these, they're just wonderful! Thanks again -

@kawaimpseries 10 жыл бұрын

Nice job Chuck! Using the Shure mic to demonstrate the different key weights was really great.

@PianoManChuck 10 жыл бұрын

Kawai MP Thanks! :)

@BlueEyeTableRockLake 2 жыл бұрын

Nice info for an old acoustic tech trying to catch up with the digital world of piano actions.

@eraritjaritjaka1 5 жыл бұрын

The MP11 has a more pivot length on the keys but behind the pivot the length (compared with a real grand pianon action) is very short. So in my opinion the relation is not really balanced (by the VPC1 the ratio of these length are more balanced Also you have in mind that the MP11 was made more for a jazz pianist who needs not only to play concert pianos (but also fender rhodes, organ sounds etc). So this action is maybe more user friendly for those customers. I bought the VPC1 because I only need it for studio work to play with best piano VSTs. And for this the VPC1 maybe makes a better job that the MP11.

@fabioj.w.6185 7 жыл бұрын

Very informative! Thanks!

@GerhardAlbinus 7 жыл бұрын

Wonderful review, thank you so much.

@orpheouz 6 жыл бұрын

very clear and informative, thanks!

@benstastic 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the video chuck

@kurtwieting 3 жыл бұрын

Fantastic information. You are the best !

@PianoManChuck 3 жыл бұрын

Glad you think so!

@skelly790 2 жыл бұрын

Really useful review. I've got short thumbs so have to play into the keys. Which means I'm going to have to spring for the GF.

@DanielMartinez-nw1pn 4 жыл бұрын

You can tell he's a musician because of his t-shirt . Just kidding, great video 😁😁😂

@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton 9 жыл бұрын

Thanks for doing this comparison! In another one of your videos, you seem to prefer the VPC1 action due to the programmable velocity curves, notwithstanding the key length/pivot point difference. Am I correct that said difference applies only to virtual instruments (Pianoteq, etc.) and not MIDI'd ones (e.g., MIDI a MP7 to the VPC1)? I have really long fingers (great for piano, not so much for sax, my main axe...). I also play more complex Jazz chord voicings. As such, I play farther "in" and prefer the longer keys. My local store does not have the MP7, MP11 or VPC1... just the ES7 and the CP2 (which have MP7 and MP11 actions, respectively, as nearly as I can tell). I preferred the CP2 action; it seems that you can "swim in it" as opposed to an on/off type of feel for the ES7/MP7. That said, for nearly three grand I'd like all the MP7 goodies as well.... I detected a higher touch weight on the PC2. How does the touch weight compare between the VPC1 (RMS III) and the MP11 (Grand Feel)? Thanks, and keep up the good work! - Jeff

@WarriorOfMetal 8 жыл бұрын

Since you like casio way dont you show the action of the celviano hybrid 500 if you can, and if you tryed what is your opinion between kawai and casio action keys?

@bnolsen 10 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the overview!. You'll see people bring up the roland rd800 and yamaha clp585 actions. Have you been able to play with either of those pianos and do you have an opinion on those?

@geu6270 Жыл бұрын

I might as well chime in. I am freakishly sensitive about my actions. But then again I can easily do some articulations that might be difficult for someone else at my level. I have instruments with both actions and to me there is a world of difference between the newer versions of these 2 actions. GF (compact even iow GFC) blows the doors off of the RM3. So, I decided to do a test with my wife to see if she could feel the difference in a blindfold test several times. She is a pianist who started piano early in her life but has really never cared much for DP actions anyway but is not particularly sensitive about which is what till this test: Tested 10 times and 10 times she liked the GF best and her words were even "night and day." I am not saying RM3 is a bad action in any case. It is the best in it's class verses, Yama's etc. But again, can't begin to compare the GF once you get going. So, if you want an action that REALLY DOES feel like an acoustic go $up to the GF pianos because the RM3 really; doesn't. 🎹

@masonjahncke7844 6 ай бұрын

I completely agree. I play both the kawai VPC and MP11SE. The grand feel action is just too good to play on. It makes the Nord stage 4, Casio privia and Yamaha yc88 I've owned feel like something's majorly missing.

@ChristianJoannes Жыл бұрын

8 years old video but still absolutely up to date as both instruments still exist in the market after many years even though the mp11 as been slightly upgraded . As a owner of the 2 keyboards , I feel little difference in the action as you should never have to play that far in the keybed . That’s why a trill white key / black key is better with 1-3 than 2-3 because you can play closest to the edge of the key , with less energy required . Thanks for the video .peace

@pjny123 Жыл бұрын

Hi Christian, I'm just a little confused, as I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that 1-3 is better than 2-3. (Not sure what the numbers stand for.) Are you saying that the Grand Feel is the better choice? Would love to know your thoughts on this if you wouldn't mind clarifying. Thanks!

@ChristianJoannes Жыл бұрын

@@pjny123 hi Pablo, what I am referring to is fingers . You have more amplitude with using the thumb and the 3rd finger when you do a trill white/black key . for instance if you do a trill with E/F# you will notice that you do the trill with the thumb and the 3rd finger the hand can be placed normally on the keyboard , if you do the same trill with 2nd and 3rd finger , you have to advance your hand in the keybed because of the lack of amplitude between these fingers. The GF is marginally better because the key lengths is a bit longer so less effort when you play deeply on the keybed but the difference is minimal , as the keys on the VPC1 are already quite long and longer than the majority of DP's except hybrids.The VPC1 has also the advantage than you can regulate the velocity of each individual note which is quite rare. Both keyboards are an excellent choice for pure piano playing in all cases.

@GemExperience 8 жыл бұрын

Hey Chuck, love your (albeit somewhat biased) videos and well thought out reflections, advice, knowledge tips trick and so on and so forth ;) Have you tried the old Roland XV-88 or something remotely similar, if so do you have any input on how you felt those keys where or any advice? I got a deal on one but its a bit of a drive. Thing is i NEED aftertouch, and can't really afford Kawai and such, so a top of the line 15 year old Roland model is something I think might fit my needs. Also great video about "not" buying old keyboards, please do many more videos in the future :D

@seattlevkk 4 жыл бұрын

Great video - what do you think of the newer Grand Feel Compact. I'm really tempted by the VPC-1 but wondering if I should wait to see if Kawai updates the rm3 to GFC and whether it would even be a perceptible difference.Thanks

@maulcs 4 жыл бұрын

At this point, I don't know if we'll ever see a VPC2 - it's been expected for years.

@adamjerny5051 3 жыл бұрын

exactly...better wait for the VPC2 with GF II (not GF III) and flat top to accommodate a laptop

@Persun_McPersonson 2 жыл бұрын

@@adamjerny5051 The thing is that it doesn't seem to be coming, unfortunately. I'd wager the business side of things are holding its creation back.

@eugeneyermakov 9 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Chuck for the explanation. Did I get you right there's not much difference in feel b/w those two apart from the fact that GF requires a bit more effort to be nailed down? Your trick with the mic left me in a baffling stupor ( I regret to say...) Would you recommend a VPC1 (which is RM3II in fact) for a novice? I understand it's a midi controller. In our local shops no Kawais are available, although among others I had a chance to finger Yamaha's GH, Roland's Ivory Feel G and RD7000NX's PH3. The latter sparked such a friendly wave of euphoria that I ain't been able to get to sleep ever since. Currently my budget allows me to only get a VPC1. Do you think my transition to PH4 will be painless after I've played with Kawai say 1 or 2 years? Thanks a lot for all your videos. They do help to make a more conscious choice.

@PianoManChuck 9 жыл бұрын

Eugene Yermakov You have it reversed - the GF requires less effort as you "play into" the keys.As for personal recommendations, see the following video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ebyDptCKqM2xmWg.html

@carlos-bt4dt 7 жыл бұрын

now kawai have Grand Feel II in CA-97, whats the difference betwin GF-1 vs GF-2. and Casio now have beckstein real grand piano key with full lenght in gp-500,400,300.

@ItsThatJahncke2 6 жыл бұрын

carl os The Casio celviano gp-500 has a better action than the grand feel 1&2 action, but definitely cost more. The grand feel 2 keys are heavier than the grand feel 1

@user-jk9qt8om5i 4 жыл бұрын

@@ItsThatJahncke2 and gf2 have ebony touch and ivory touch,gf1 has only ivory touch.

@gustavocysne 10 жыл бұрын

Hi piano man! Great video! For a long time I've been waiting for a detailed explanation about Kawai RM3 and GF actions. I'd like to know: is the GF as heavy as a real concert grand or is it lighter? Have you already done this kind of comparison?

@PianoManChuck 10 жыл бұрын

gustavo cysne A "real concert grand" can vary from ultra light to extremely heavy! You can set the action on the Kawai piano's to accommodate your taste from light to heavy, and anything in between.

@TurandotFanatic 9 жыл бұрын

PianoManChuck Mechanically speaking, how does it do this?

@thefreereed 2 жыл бұрын

@@TurandotFanatic Not done mechanically, it's done in software via velocity curves.

@NyakzOTSD 3 жыл бұрын

Just bought an Mp7se... but the size and price of the Mp11se put me off!! I am hoping it feels just as good

@TurandotFanatic 9 жыл бұрын

Hi Chuck, thanks for this video. This Kawai action system is the most closer to an acoustic piano I've ever seen, since it has real hammers each key. I've seen recently the Yamaha system, and it's simplest than this, it only has a weight at the other end of the key. Anyway, it is a cheaper Yamaha model, probably the top models also works with hammers. But something I noticed at Yamaha piano is the sensor that 'perceives' how fast / hard the key was pressed. At each Yamaha key, there are two contacts to be closed when the key is pressed, however, due to the angle that the key falls in relation to the contacts, one contact closes before than the other. The system then calculates the time between the close of one and another contact. The lower the closing time between a contact and the other, means that the key was pressed quicker, harder, then the piano emits more volume. I would like to ask you, if possible, to present the different systems to detect how fast and hard the key was pressed, at Kaway / Yamaha / Korg / Kurzweil / etc. digital pianos.

@justdandavies 9 жыл бұрын

what would be a great idea for this pivot point comparison - not that I care that much -what you've already done is great - is mayby play some repoirtoire excamples where one needs less resistance on the pivioit point with the grand feel. Liszts trancadental study no 10 comes to mind. It took me about a month to memorize the first few bars. Infact, as far as Kawai's marketing team is concerned, they need some pin up pianists to be playing some mad classical stuff, but then again that would alienate certain consumers. great though to finally have a board with nothing on it - vintage vibe's ep's also have that minimal appearence, but boy are they pricey as it uses actual ep mechanics. the kawai vpc1, having bought the Hammond SK2 a few years ago, will be my last buy I think. it really is beautiful. Though I'd love to see a video from you on latency and getting the right hardware to use the vpc1, I could get this info elsewhere, but I like your videos :)

@PianoManChuck 9 жыл бұрын

Daniel Davies Thanks for the feedback / suggestions. Many boards come and go here... the VPC1 was one of the boards that I had for a limited time... and I might add it was the best piano controller I've ever had the pleasure of playing :)

@adrielbote 3 жыл бұрын

@PianoManChuck Up to this date, which digital piano would be the closest to a real grand piano in terms of the action/feel of the keybed? Thanks in advance!

@redapple1683 3 жыл бұрын

Nv10

@adrielbote 3 жыл бұрын

@@redapple1683 thanks! How bout on the portable models?

@le2559 3 жыл бұрын

Rm3ii vs grand feel !!! Who win ?

@112rorz 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for taking the effort to make this video Chuck, really helpful because I had this exact question in mind. However after watching your video, I still feel there is a question that wasn't addressed. Given that the MP11's pivot point is pushed back, this also means the front of the key is further away from the pivot than the VPC1, so does this equate to an overall lighter keyboard touch/action (with fingers in normal key position) than the VPC1? Or have Kawai altered the counter-weights under the key to give the same finger weight needed to depress the front of the key. I understand its a complicated question and you probably need both keyboards and fixed weights to test, but was wondering if you know already? I remember reading Grand Piano keys need around 50g to be depressed.

@mangodsky2809 5 жыл бұрын

It's definitely a lighter touch on the MP11, it's pretty much my biggest gripe with it, because I like more snappy percussive feedback. And sometimes the MP11 feels a bit spongy.

@eraritjaritjaka1 5 жыл бұрын

@@mangodsky2809 yes you have in mind that the MP11 was made more for a jazz pianist who needs not only to play concert pianos (but also fender rhodes, organ sounds etc). So this action is mabe more user friendly for those customers. I bought the VPC1 because I only need it for studio work to play with best piano VSTs. And for this the VPC1 maybe makes a better job that the MP11.

@easterdm 10 жыл бұрын

Is the action on the mp10 the same as the mp11?

@PianoManChuck 10 жыл бұрын

Willy Wonka No. MP10 = RM3 action. MP11 = Grand Feel action.

@MessiahGaming1080p 8 жыл бұрын

Ok so now I am looking at getting the CA-67 and it has the grand feel action 2, and some say it's heavier again, does that mean it feels less like a grand piano? I really love quite light grand keys under my fingers that just obey my wishes when I play, would I get that from the CA-67 and how do the keys on the kawai compare to let's say the CLP-585 or 575? Since I have tried those and did not like the 575'a keybed much, but the 585 was better, still not perfect. Yamaha keybeds seem to be quite stiff for my taste so I at least have trouble playing soft on them, they always hammer away so you have to concentrate to play nice which is frustrating as hell. Thanks for the video, it was kinda what I was lookng for even if I can't feel them they sure look nice and seem to have that bouncy grand feel to them.

@_Sergei_ 8 жыл бұрын

I prefer exceptionally heavy actions. _« I really love quite light grand keys under my fingers that just obey my wishes when I play»_ And than you go to a real grand with heavier action and nothing obeys to you.

@carlgranz7368 9 жыл бұрын

Hello, Can you tell me more about the RM3 Grand II action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor? I was thinking to buy a Kawai CA-15 that has this piano action. I am a bit confused... This piano is for practicing for a guy 16 years old student at 4th year of conservatory. He plays only classical music

@dhamma9306 10 жыл бұрын

What's wrong with the recording Mr. Chuck. Sounds like you have a diesel running on the background :)

@PianoManChuck 10 жыл бұрын

Dhamma Pada I actually used a condenser mic in this video... I guess it was sensitive enough to pick up the air conditioning vent (9 feet away)! I normally turn off the air when recording, but it was over 100F that day!

@MrLandale 8 жыл бұрын

Kawai using plastic hammers which usually get broken after around 15 years of regularly playing. The sensors uses old-fashioned cunductive rubber. I really prefer the Yamaha NU1 action, it's all wood and it also has optical sensors that doen't cause any wear.

@MrLandale 8 жыл бұрын

+Myiphone5 It is often difficult to find replacement parts for old digital pianos. Yamaha NU1 use exactly the same action as their acoustic pianos, so there will never be any problems for repairs.

@thephilosopher666 7 жыл бұрын

It seems to me that no one's gonna play the same digital piano for 15 years. And it all the same with everything that is "digital", because of technologies development. For example, no one's gonna walk with the mobile phone bougth 15 years ago (exept oldfags)).

@MrLandale 7 жыл бұрын

I agree, technology develops quickly, but the touch of the NU1 will be just as good in 15 years as today, so if we're talking about practice instruments it's an investment for life.

@bigPianist99 7 жыл бұрын

No we do not talk about practise pianos here. The Kawai Mp11 is thought to serve as a stage piano, so you can be happy when it survives 15 years at all. And the only investment for life is an acoustic piano or a grand piano. I bought the Mp11 for live events, but practising and becoming a decent pianist only works on acoustic pianos, no doubt here. And by the way, never buy a digital piano that exceeds a decent baby grand or solid upright in terms of price point, simply because of the way pianos age. The digitals of today, as well as they may seem to us now, will be absoluteley worthless in a few decades, however, acoustic instruments - if kept in good condition - will rise exponentially. I bought a C.Bechstein upright about 6 years ago for 5300 Euros at the time. The very same model is sold for almost 8000 Euros now, just half a decade later. But of course, everybody has personal preferences and different needs, so further discussing this topic seems like a waste of time to me, I just wanted to state what I think about that topic. Keep playing! :)

@jortepap 6 жыл бұрын

the NU1(X) has a horrible issue with the key response thats so much worse. Sometimes when you press the key just a little bit you get very loud sound. Its soo bad that it has a problem like that while costs sooo much money. So thats not a perfect piano either lol

@carlos-bt4dt 7 жыл бұрын

what do "let off" feature simulate? are it when hammer pass halfway and hammer weight is on other side of axel.

@Persun_McPersonson 2 жыл бұрын

You still wondering, or...?

@Flabis-piano 3 жыл бұрын

Today in 2020, is the VPC1 still the best keybed? or the the MP11 SE?

@Persun_McPersonson 3 жыл бұрын

What the fuck?

@Flabis-piano 3 жыл бұрын

@@Persun_McPersonson year corrected, i was probably too tired when I wrote this message LOL

@WeDoLoveU 3 жыл бұрын

I saw only 1 brand new for VPC. The rest like B stock. It must be good I guess.

@anatol1204 3 жыл бұрын

Chuck do you have any information about vpc 2 .?Many people are curious ias i read in the forums..

@PianoManChuck 3 жыл бұрын

Anything you hear or read about it is pure conjecture unless Kawai makes an official announcement.... and like all other keyboard manufacturers, they're silent until something is ready for announcement.

@johnhanek167 5 жыл бұрын

Chuck, after watching the vid I'm confused. You stated several times that basically the only time you'd notice a difference between the two actions would be when playing into the keys. I'm no physicist, but it seems like basic physics that the GF action with the longer keys would take less pressure to push down and as a consequence your playing could be much more expressive. Is this correct? Thank-you.

@PianoManChuck 5 жыл бұрын

That's exactly right. Playing "into" the keys means being able to play (depress) a key at its furthest point from you (where the key disappears into the board) with very little pressure. On other boards, this would require more pressure, and on some boards its physically impossible to depress a key at that point.

@maulcs 4 жыл бұрын

A lighter action doesn't create more expression, in fact it's often quite the opposite.

@philippegingras 8 жыл бұрын

Sorry Chuck, I didn't really get the point of this video. May have to do with the fact that it seems like you're trying to explain something in 12 minutes that should probably be explained in 2.

@araarutyan2855 6 жыл бұрын

maybe you are just dumb lol

@moonspirit2869 6 жыл бұрын

Philippe J Gingras keep rude comments to yourself

@PeterWalkerHP16c 5 жыл бұрын

I agree. We all learnt about levers and fulcrums in 7th year for God's sake.