Are you letting the numbers spoil your photography? How much notice should you take of such data

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Keith Cooper

Keith Cooper

Жыл бұрын

How much notice should you take of those technical numbers for cameras, printers and lenses. Are they leading you away from taking better photos. Do they matter?
Why the technical side of photography and photographic equipment can be a diversion from your photography. Using the numbers to understand and help. That and avoiding too much marketing.
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Пікірлер: 60
@waynej1883
@waynej1883 Жыл бұрын
"When it comes back to it, it's about taking great photos." - That quote of yours from this presentation, tells all. Bravo, maestro!
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Indeed ;-) - Thanks
@robinjones6999
@robinjones6999 Жыл бұрын
More common sense, thanks Keith. I get really annoyed by (usually Americans) who make click bait videos with the title "You've been doing this all wrong". Your reviews and discussions are always informative and well measured. I used to work in medicine and always took information usually as a point of view, and not some definitive proof.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks - I'm trying to produce videos which get noticed, but don't short change viewers
@richardpowellTV
@richardpowellTV Жыл бұрын
Excellent video Keith and I agree with you. It's like pixel peepers, who the heck cares as long as your picture looks good and it's composed well with good lighting. Delving deep into the numbers for me is a waste of time. In the eighties I was shooting on 4x5 with lenses that nowadays would be thrown in the bin but my clients never complained about the results. It's not about the marketing hype and numbers, it's about how you use your gear.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks - I do look at pixels sometimes, but more in connection with testing stuff than actual work ;-)
@keithmagee4450
@keithmagee4450 Жыл бұрын
Another very helpful video Keith. When I started photography some 40+ years ago, I poured over the magazines looking at the “numbers “ wishing I could afford equipment like this. Now I am able to discern what I ACTUALLY need to produce good quality prints, without breaking bank. I am really unlikely to be wanting to print at 2 metres by 15!
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks. You need big walls for such prints ;-)
@jbairdexp
@jbairdexp Жыл бұрын
Great video Keith, and well presented as always. :-)
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks - I've one about 'megapixels and prints' to publish later today...
@jbairdexp
@jbairdexp Жыл бұрын
@@KeithCooper I look forward to that one. 🙂
@robertnystrom289
@robertnystrom289 Жыл бұрын
AMEN. As a EE whose designed products for 4 decades that sell in the 100's to millions, I've been down the rabbit holes. The design goal always is to make every product be the same by beating tolerances to death. In photography, I suck at composition because often I don't 'see' what's in the viewfinder- I'm thinking about what happens internally when you press the button (I've designed exposure and focusing circuits). It's really, really hard to mentally turn it off. There's a certain amount that it helps to know, especially when things go wrong. I confess I have a weak spot for megapixels- "I crop, therefore I am" (there's that composition thing). And if one is on a budget, I get you want to make the right buying decision. But in the end, tune in, take the damn picture and let that be the guide.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks - I agree, some technical aspects do take more effort to 'silence'. One reason I do all the testing is that it lets me tinker with stuff, in ways I couldn't do on paying work. The 'work' photography has benefitted quite a lot from this over the years
@BrianBoas
@BrianBoas Жыл бұрын
When one is incapable of taking an artistically compelling or original photograph, it’s a lot easier to get bogged down with technical issues that make no difference.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
That can be the case... ;-)
@kevins8575
@kevins8575 Жыл бұрын
I always appreciate your approach to these topics. I would give you an eleven!
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@ellisvener5337
@ellisvener5337 Жыл бұрын
It’s a psychological syndrome known as the “paralysis by analysis”
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Yes, forum discussions about new DxO Mark figures always seem to illustrate that well ;-)
@macwestcanon
@macwestcanon Жыл бұрын
What a excellent video thanks . mac
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks - Glad you enjoyed it
@Peter_Cetera
@Peter_Cetera Жыл бұрын
You're absolutely right of course, but a little devil on my shoulder tells me that you always have to have the best equipment. Yes, that's stupid...
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Yes - I've noticed it... Actually woking as a photographer has worked wonders for me with this though, in that 'best' includes business aspects ;-)
@kenblair2538
@kenblair2538 Жыл бұрын
Great discussion , Kieth. I went down that rabbit hole , early on in my digital career . I reverted back to shooting film, for the enjoyment of creating prints. And when I do, shoot digitally, with my ole Olympus E30, I shoot like it is film. Making evey exposure sou t, with a backup or two. As long as I can print super A3 (13×19) prints that look the way I want , I'm good. Thanks. KB
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks - glad it was of interest
@DCockey
@DCockey Жыл бұрын
The practical importance of improvements in numbers depends in large part on the baseline. When I switched from a 3MP to a 13MP camera I saw a difference in some situations. When I switched to a 24MP camera the added megapixels were not noticeable for most of my photography except for photos used in photogrammetry where detail resolution had definite effects. What I have found a noticeable improvement with the new camera is when shooting at higher ISO of 800 and above. The new camera has noticeably less noise.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Yes, there are definitely still improvements happening, but areas where they show up are getting harder to find.
@jpdj2715
@jpdj2715 Жыл бұрын
I just commented the following elsewhere - it illustrates the use of numbers as tools AND explains your experience with MP changes: Exactly. As, in landscape mode, a 14mm lens has a vertical angle of 81.2 degrees, you can use a 20mm in vertical orientation to get a "14mm" image from the 20mm in portrait orientation (*) by shooting a couple panorama shots that are stitched later. Of course there are disclaimers here - like time parallax. The 14mm has a horizontal angle of 104.1 (landscape orientation) and the 20mm - in portrait orientation has 61.9 degrees. In theory two shots would be enough to cover that, with about 20 degrees overlap, but I would take three in the case of these ultra wide angle lenses. And, you end up with an image of about 75MP (**) from a 45MP camera like a Z 7ii but imagine you crop that to letterbox aspect ratio and you still end up with some 45MP. In many cases, I would use a 35mm in portrait orientation, in stead, even, for some panorama shots, just because in my local landscape I get too much boring foreground that does nothing for my composition. I understand viewpoint and ultra wides very well, but it's my reality, very often. (*) in landscape orientation, a 20mm has a horizontal angle of 83.8 degrees. Note that lens angle specifications are at infinity distance setting and across the image diagonal - unless explicitly labelled as deviating from that. (**) The interwebs keep navel gazing about more MP and that's good for marketers, influencers, investors, but not for photographers. "MP" are an area unit and consequently MP comparisons relate areas. Since the early days of photography, "we" know that human perception of detail resolution needs linear comparison in order to better predict what we will experience. That is why "we" measure lens resolution in "line pairs per millimetre" or variants thereof. So if we compare sensor resolutions then we must go to one of the sensor sides and compare its number with the same side of another sensor. In the case of different aspect ratios, we should take the diagonal. What does that mean? Well, if we have a sensor of X*Y=MP resolution then to get the perception of TWO TIMES the sharpness, we need 2X*2Y=4MP. Or the other way around, in comparing these two, we compare the X with the 2X, not MP with 4MP. This means, in the case of much lower differences in MP than 4 times, the difference in image quality that we perceive will disappoint. And it explains why we still can be surprised by how good a 12MP camera's images look. Or how "little the difference is between a camera of 24MP versus 12MP: 41% linearly. Such comparisons of course need the "ceteris paribus" requirement and lenses that can resolve both. And so there's one situation where that ceteris paribus is broken: when we compare cameras that have an AA filter over the sensor with a camera that does not have the AA filter. A Nikon Z 6(ii) has an AA filter, a Z 7(ii) or Z 9 doesn't have that. The AA filter disperses a bit of the light travelling to photosite [I,J] in the sensor, to the direct neighbours thereof. This makes raw processing easier, especially the aspect of jagged lines and potentially some banding. But it reduces dynamic range, low light sensitivity, colour space, and lens sharpness through loss of especially contour sharpness. Also it creates a filter tunnel over each photodiode (photosite) that contributes to vignetting - increasingly so with increasing sensor resolution. This is why Nikon Eliminated the AA filter - I nickname it "fuzzy filter" - in the D800E some 10 years ago. Problem - ceteris paribus - is that we don't know how our raw processing software deals with this. It should apply a different incarnation of its algorithm(s), but considering the detail loss, or lack of detail recovery, I notice in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR), the question is, if 10 years after the dropping of the AA filter in some cameras, algorithms are still only based on the presence of an AA filter. Talking about my brand, its rival Canon makes a different choice and generally still uses an AA filter in higher resolution cameras. In short, the detail resolution jump from 24 to 45 is larger when the 24 has an AA filter and the 45 does not have that. If our raw processing software can reveal that. Up to, say, an A3 size, ACR works good enough. A3 compares to a double page spread in regular magazine format. Larger magnifications may require better algorithms - I personally use Topaz Gigapixel AI to upsample to higher resolution (32,000 max at the longest side) and detail recovery is incredible. No need for "sharpening" and its artefacts.
@mamertobernal4460
@mamertobernal4460 Жыл бұрын
Guity as charged Keith ..🤣 Hifi, spent hours pouring over specs ..numbers wow/Flutter. Now I think what bits and pieces do i have what intetesting things can I do, What interesting pictures can I take armed with a phone and a selfie stick, pass me that accoustic guitar, I cant get the DSLR in there with the best will in the world. Pictures are only for me something vaugely interesting is a win. Dave B.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Knowing about it helps! ;-)
@davidmilisock5200
@davidmilisock5200 9 ай бұрын
When I scour through my RAW files the only numbers I care about is over exposure blowouts, R253 G253 B253 or higher, how much content does it affect and can it be fixed or cropped out. Same goes for the content that is R10 G10 B10 or lower, as I know that will posterize during printing. The debakcle of color management is that many believe that it will make your color look the same on multiple devices. Color management used properly will properly provide you a path for repeatable color.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper 9 ай бұрын
Yes, to me good colour management is about getting things right first time - more often. My biggest personal difficulties often come with people assuming it will do far more than it actually does.
@davidmilisock5200
@davidmilisock5200 9 ай бұрын
@@KeithCooper I was there at most of the larger graphic conventions (Seybold New York and San Francisco) when ICC was first being pushed and that's how it was marketed to people. Even today on inkjet print web sites and color management sites it's still being pushed using BS! For me color management is about making all my application work together without color shifts.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper 9 ай бұрын
For me it's about having a more predictable results and ways of getting a better clue as to what's wrong when things go awry We are long away from the marketing and hype of when this stuff appeared... Any stuff i cover here is purely aimed at photographers/artists definitely NOT commercial print ;-)
@thomaseriksson6256
@thomaseriksson6256 Жыл бұрын
PSF and diffractions is important. I'm a failed engineer that have switched from the hardware to understand art 13 years ago. Its only during the last two years after my D300 DX camera broke down I have started to upgrade some of my equipment to 45 Mpix standard that I have started to learn optic theory again. I only lack one 400mm lens and a Nikon D850 camera today. I'm using Nikon D700 and D800E, Fuji x-Pro 1 and X-T1 today and have stated with art again. In the future I will learn to print using Epson P900. I’m mostly into Woodland and some wildlife.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
PSF and diffraction mean almost nothing for most photographers other than new things to worry about. If they take the time to understand the relevance it's quite likely they will find they mean nothing much for their photography either ;-) That's definitely not to say they don't have utility for some people, but for far more they fall into 'you don't need to bother' category.
@thomaseriksson6256
@thomaseriksson6256 Жыл бұрын
@@KeithCooper Well thats important to me to decide what resulution I need in a camera. If I choose to get a 38-46Mpix camera I will not get sharp images at higher aperture steps begining at f/9.0 but if I print the image it begins at f/22.0 For my 12 Mpix camera its begins at f/16.00
@DCockey
@DCockey Жыл бұрын
@@thomaseriksson6256 The "sharpness" does not fall off a cliff at f/9. Rather as the aperture becomes smaller there will be gradual decrease in sharpness for objects in the plane the lens is focused on. It would probably be difficult to tell the difference between f/9 and f/11 or even f/13 without measuring equipment. On the other hand the depth of field increases so objects not in the plane of focus are likely to be sharper as the aperture decreases.
@thomaseriksson6256
@thomaseriksson6256 Жыл бұрын
@@DCockey Resolution, DOF and sharpness are not the same-. Some diffraction can be clear up using good sharpening tools, but not a heavy diffraction, that’s why I desided to stop at 45-60 Mpix for Nikon FF more than that is a MF domain. I cannot afford to start with a new system again. Maybe Fuji GFX 100S and use my old MF lenses.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
I sometime shoot architecture - with fine detail at f/13 or even f/16 on 50MP - do I care about diffraction - NO Do I care about the balance between diffraction, depth of field and image quality over the whole field - YES --- Interminable wrangles over diffraction are one of the 'numbers things' I'm taking a swipe at in this video... It is one factor amongst many which may or may not be of relevance
@mattdavis5058
@mattdavis5058 Жыл бұрын
Agree with your points! I've been seeing more sentiments like this recently - I hope photographers start to shift their mindset away from gear anxiety. Unrelated, I've been looking at a way to provide budget medium size prints for my fine art. One option is using e.g. Kodak Endura Luster paper, which can get a much bigger print size than a similar fine art print. What do you think about selling prints on photographic paper vs fine art inkjet? Is the reduced archival quality a real concern? I saw some of your paper videos but I wasn't sure if you were discussing photographic papers or inkjet. Thanks in advance :)
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Thanks - I'm hoping people are starting to see the reduced real-world improvements of new kit with each iteration. For printing I'm only ever looking at inkjet media - but what do you actually mean by 'medium size' and for that matter 'fine art' ;-)
@mattdavis5058
@mattdavis5058 Жыл бұрын
@@KeithCooper Ha! Medium size to me is 8x10" - 16x20". And I guess I mean inkjet by fine art print
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
It's not a paper I'd normally use at all - all my photo printing is done on inkjet. I tend to associate 'fine art' more with rag type papers, but it's nothing more than a marketing term which means whatever you want it to means ;-)
@PaperThinnGlennHall
@PaperThinnGlennHall Жыл бұрын
How do you adjust the lighting in a photo properly cause whenever I print something with my canon 200 printer it comes out darker than whe image looks on screen
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
start here... www.northlight-images.co.uk/photography-articles-and-reviews/printing-paper-reviews-articles/ Most common cause is that your screen is too bright...
@PaperThinnGlennHall
@PaperThinnGlennHall Жыл бұрын
@@KeithCooper interesting. I never thought about it like that
@thomaseriksson6256
@thomaseriksson6256 Жыл бұрын
What about comparing aperture numbers between FF, DX and MF?
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
In what way? Or more to the point in what meaningful and useful way ;-)
@thomaseriksson6256
@thomaseriksson6256 Жыл бұрын
​@@KeithCooper I'm trying to compare resolution on different sensor sizes, the pictures on Fuji T5 a 40 Mix DX camera is taken with a lens that have an aperture between 1.4 to 2.8. Also the aperture on pictures taken with Fuji GFX 100S is greater. So how do I convert between the different sensor sizes? Must be the equal aria theory
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Just give up on the calculations... I switch between formats all the time - I look at what I see in the viewfinder and add that to experience. I've never done a calculation for any of this stuff - I could, but I see no use or benefit for it in my actual photography I'm afraid
@thomaseriksson6256
@thomaseriksson6256 Жыл бұрын
@@KeithCooper I have old 16 Mpix Fuji x-Pro 1 and X-T1 for daly use, in my backpack to work. I have Nikon FF 12 and 36Mix for woodland. I may get a Fuji GFX camera so I can use my old MF lenses I'm not shure if I shall get a 50Mpix or 100Mpix..
@thomaserskine3599
@thomaserskine3599 Жыл бұрын
How much photoshop do photoshop do you need as a photographer? photoshop is so big learning everything would take months of dedicated study and a lot of that you would not use.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
The key elements of editing images with photoshop, I've shown people in a day. Depends on their experience and inclination... ;-) The book I always recommend is 'Photoshop for Photogaphers' by Martin Evening
@brightboxstudio
@brightboxstudio Жыл бұрын
It’s no different than the question of using the camera itself. Cameras have hundreds of features because everyone’s needs are different, the key is to get to know your camera well enough to understand which features you want to use, and which features you don’t need to use, for the specific type of photography you do. Same with Photoshop: You should learn enough about Photoshop to understand which features and techniques are relevant to the kind of photography you do. Today, I spend much less time in Photoshop than I did years ago, because raw processors such as Lightroom Classic have advanced so much that most of what my photography needs is more efficient to do in there.
@freehand5040
@freehand5040 Жыл бұрын
The proof is in the pudding.
@KeithCooper
@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын
Once you decide which brand of flour is optimal... ;-)
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