Holy ur ad is half the video. Reminds of chips bags when 60% of it is air

@@Momogamer9 You're free to skip it, there's timestamps for a reason

wtf 6:27

Ray Bradbury wrote a story with zero characters yet manages to make you feel immersed in the story

@@ESALTEREGOwhich one?

Aristotle and Mystery writer disagree with you

This rarely works, building a story solely around a twist means that one of these will happen 1) It succeed (rarely) 2) The twist is undermined by the story itself and undermines or gives a bad message (Oshi no Ko lost it's meaning when it makes the antagonist past worse than the one we suppose to root for making him more sympathetic) 3) The twist overtakes the story badly (the Kingdom Hearts effect)

@@nonamepasserbya6658 kishotenketsu is not a hard rule just like the hero's journey. And the example you gave with oshi no ko utilizes it constantly. The twist that the doctors patient has a terminal illness, that she dies, that his idol appears before him, that she's pregnant, doctors death and rebirth, aquas acting talent are all miniature twists that support the story. Like all structures, formulas and tropes with proper execution they work very well. Kishotenketsu can be used all the way down to a chapter structure or page to page. It can "ki sho ten ten ten tetsu" or "ten ki shi ten ketsu" it's not all back loaded onto the twist . You can use the twist to introduce something, raise suspense with alot of "ten ten ten" (Jojo's fights and chunin exams) to name a few examples. I personally dislike oshi no ko but my disengagement of it isn't from the twists itself, the story has other flaws but I hope I opened your eyes to a very interesting and strong literary tool

Yeah the video seems like a classic example of "place vs place, japan" or "thing vs thing in japan." Kinda weird.

@@rackyphyr don't get me wrong, it's interesting I just wish it was more clearly comparing storylines. The only thing they really pointed out differently is that it doesn't require conflict but then the example isn't a great reflection of that

i havent read your name in years but from what i remember, your name there isnt really build up to the conflict, unlike how traditional three act plot structure move the story forward with conflict

@@not_urmom8021 yeah I understand that but the fact that it fits the mentioned structure doesn't really help OP's case of claiming that it's a "fresh, unpredictable" plot. They keep mentioning train to Busan in comments. If that was such a good example of East and West contrast then that should have been used.

@@not_urmom8021 the only difference shown in this video is that the build up leads to a twist, rather than escalation of conflict

True!

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Of course! I also had no idea this was a thing, I always assumed the stuff we used in western media was the same world wide. I assumed there was a version of it in other cultures. I only heard the name recently and after looking into it a bit, it all clicked. I'm glad I could shine more light on it!

Its a very common structure in storytelling. But its just one of the many things i cant really translate into english (my first language is mandarin)

Yeah, there really isn't much difference.

Yeah it's just freaky Friday but with romance and a weird time travel sub plot

​@@MALICEM12 I was literally thinking about Freaky Friday when Your Name popped in back in the day 😂 I just don't get why some people make it so grand if it's "made by Japanese storytellers". There's no difference in the framework of the story. There's just the touch of culture that makes the framework more unique than the others before it.

私もそう思います。起承転結は昔からどこの国でも物語を作るうえで自然とそうなるパターンだと思います。 ①問題が発生する。②物語が進む。③大きな変化があってクライマックスを迎える。④話が収束する。 どの国の物語でも見られる基本的なパターンです。

@@akinasukizakura yea your right. I do appreciate Japanese story telling diverse perspectives. Sometimes America just makes everything into a comedy when it should be heartfelt.

You make good points. My problem with this video is that it took over half the video, 4 and a half minutes, to finally explain what the concept of kishotenketsu even is.

It is more accurate to say that kishotenketsu doesn't need driving conflict. The third act twist is the centerpoint of the story, but while it may introduce a conflict, characters don't actually have to engage with it (on-screen) in order for the story to conclude. The standard three- and five-act plot structures-which permeate Western media-have conflict written into their very foundations.

And how does this help with the fact that every example for kishotenketsu has a form of conflict? Just by putting focus on a twist and "not needing" conflict does not exactly warrant enough value to call this rebrand of plot stucture unique. Attributing 3-act and 5-act purely to western media is rather disingenuous as well as there are many ways a story can be told in the west. These story models are not unique to any locality, which is why I consider videos like these to be bullshit.

​@@feliciasmeatballs3982 I'm more surprised by the annoyed responses to the video, rather than trying to understand more what the differences really are, which is more productive in the end! It only depends on people's and cultures' preferences. Me as a Peruvian, personally also find Japanese storytelling more interesting than Western stories. There's a video that explains it better from the channel "SMAC! - THE SILENT MANGA AUDITION COMMUNITY!" It's not that simple, because it's a storytelling tradition that has an origin in Ancient China. In the same manner people created their stories with their own structures in other places, in China the tradition consists of 4 parts, and is hence passed down in culture and education. Since it was developed as its own tradition, and has lasted for millenia, parallel to the Western one, there will naturally be key differences. In the West, there's a conflict that is presented at the beginning of the story, and that drives the story towards it resolution. But Kishoutenketsu doesn't mean a lack of "conflict", but of a "conflict that drives the story". It means there can be conflict, but it won't be the center of the story. Instead, the story is driven from a different emotional perspective. They're driven by "character" and "setting" at first. The world (context), and the characters are presented in a way that captures the whole attention towards them. And the more you're engaged with them, the more you understand about them, the more you're emotionally invested, hence the "Turning Point" or 3rd part will be more effective. And by the end of the 4th act, it's not necessarily resolved (as in a Resolution), but you simply have a conclusion. The story then may go forward. Along the way, there may have been several conflicts, or an ongoing conflict that the characters weren't aware of, and has now caught up to them. Or it can be something else entirely. You could say that, even if you tried to analyze them and end up dividing a Japanese story in a 3 act structure, and a Western story in a 4 act structure, there will still be key underlying differences. Because the stories were conceived and thought of in a different manner in the first place. I'm trying to make my post short. But it's a complex thing to talk about and can be lenghty. It can't be really understood easily in a single video or a few paragraphs, as it's part of a culture and tradition that people grow up in for years. I'd even say that Western audiences (particularly European and North America) even read Japanese stories differently to how the public over there does. So it can be difficult to understand for a while, until it's studied in more depth. Someone mentioned Star Wars before I think. I think George Lucas was a big fan of Akira Kurosawa. As a SW fan I can tell you that you can divide his stories in both manners, 3 acts or 4 acts (Hero's Journey being very fundamental to him as well), and understand them in both manners. However that only applies to the ones George Lucas was fully involved in. I think the guys in charge now are still missing some of the key concepts that Lucas himself had so it's one of the reasons audience feels that "they lack something". Anyway, I hope it helps! have a good day!

@@kushkitten People say its the same because ether haven't really studied it. Kishotenketsu stories are wildly different from western heroes journey. Heroes journey after the call to action is literally heading towards the goal "Save the princess" with obstacles throw in the way until they save the girl or don't. Kishotenketsu after the introduction literally meanders in the world it has created until the way we see that world is turned on its head during Ten. There isn't a set "Mission" in Your Name other than the two kids getting to know themselves and this body switching mechanic. There's no forward motion rather this static conversation back and forth between the two deepening our connection with the characters. You could say Ten takes the elements of the Sho stage and turns them in a way that makes it a heroes journey..

kishotenketsu develops the character without revealing too much about where the plot is going, then there is a twist. whereas in the traditional way the conflict drives the plot forward. also i think aot uses both but yeah the ending was disappointing to say the least. also it rlly depends on how creative the author gets, of course you dont have to follow kishotenketsu word for word. I feel like in kishotenketsu its much more about the journey than the ending.

I agree. I have studied story structure for a while and it just feels like a character driven story inatead of plot driven. Nothing new to me, unless I am missing something.

@@not_urmom8021 this must be what Kingdom Hearts series does? 😂 twists ohh the twists

​@@not_urmom8021errr... looks like what One Piece is. i'm scared the ending will just MEH, or Oda just use lazy Open Ending

@@keitaro3660 I'm pretty sure Oda has it at least half figured out and already knows what the One Piece is ever since Whitebeards death

RIGHT.

Very good points! I am also more of a fan of this than the western models. I think it is important to ask yourself, do you enjoy western movies/books/tv shows more or less than eastern ones? If you prefer eastern ones, then this is the structure they are all thinking about when writing!

Just write it from your heart

Stop following structures so rigidly, that's the crux of your issue.

@@SilverInThePitchBlack That is a good point, there are plenty of stories that do their own thing and make it work!

Great observations! You are completely correct! That is how a lot of many establish their story arcs, making them progressively longer as the story goes on Most authors try to nail the first three chapters because the "three chapter rule" is very real.

Very true!

SAME, I LOVE THAT SERIES Criminally underrated

that goes with kdrama too actually... i wouldnt be surprised if chinese drama follows what youve written too more or less

I see! Thank you for taking the time to share that! If you don't mind me asking, can I ask what country that is used in?

@@MonitorComics I think this might be used in spanish-speaking countries? I'm from Spain, and this person has used almost the literal translation to our steps for telling a story (inicio/begining, nudo/"knot" and desenlace/"untie" or conclusion. Although this method is fairly common, used in many theatrical stories throughout the centuries, very similar to Freytag's pyramid.

oh apologies for the late reply I'm from Mongolia and well our education system is heavily influenced by other countries so maybe we could've just directly translated the source material and used it to teach literature in middle school

I'm glad you enjoyed the video!

Thanks for taking the time to watch!

Already did! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Zr6So6lem8-Rpmg.html&pp=ygUZbW9uaXRvciBjb21pY3MgbGFyZ2UgY2FzdA%3D%3D

Could always just look at OLDER works. Like premodern.

Me, I don't pigeon hole any of my work into any kind of pre-made structure. I just think of the story I want to tell and tell it. Then I think about things like structure and theme only after I've laid the basic plot out. These things exist to serve the story, not the other way around.

Man, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you're rigidly trying to follow a specific story structure. Trust me when I sat that this will not make a difference, it's still just another story structure to achieve the same endgoal as Freytag or Hero's Journey or Three Act or what will you. Telling the story you want to tell often already loosely follows a "structure," because stories need structure to make sense, so don't worry about trying to cram your story into a predetermined structure. Just write, brother. Drop the story's beats where you think they oughta be. The guy above me puts it VERY WELL.

@@TheGreatJinx unfortunately I can’t have zero structure when writing, or I write myself into a corner or a marathon with no end constantly. I have some neurodivergency issues that keep me from just writing or going out on a limb. Thank you so much for the advice, though! I have found that this structure is loose enough for me to “not have a structure” but still keep my plot line intact ^^

@Harudodo I'm glad you've found something that works ^^

Very great points!! I did only learn about Kishotenketsu recently through entering the Silent Manga Audition, they had a video about it on their website I always knew there was a *reason* I perferred Korean movies, kdramas, anime, etc more than western stuff, but I couldn't put my finger on it I always assumed it was just because they did their own thing and it was a cultural difference I think most of my audience is also only aware of the western structures like the hero's journey, Freytag's pyramid, 3 act structure, etc because its what we are taught in school Looking into kishotenketsu and researching it more made everything click as you said!

@@MonitorComics yeah I also learn it years ago from silent manga channel, the one you clip in the video good luck with your story and other analysis!

That story sounds like a pretty cool story and if you decide to voice it one day I’ll be there to listen 🤙🏾

​@@yosoycheese9930 i was planning it to be a comic but you made me realise it could work well as an actual story, which i would actually be able to create as im not a very good drawer. sadly it would lose some of the effect that drawing has and i might have to compress the story a bit but writing it could work a lot better for me as i'm a good writer. i'll see what i will do with the story, thanks for showing interest lol

@@senarmstrongfanaccount There is always the option of teaming up with an artist, though it may be hard. Even as a novel though, I think I’d read that.

Its too late i might steal your idea already...action speak louder than words

​@@Jazengamic tysm for giving me the motivation to start writing it already 😊 already have the big story beats planned out in my head. i'll probably mess up the ending though lol as i dont have a clear idea of what it will be, if that happens you can take over

Thank you for taking the time to watch!

Which is?

The main difference between Kishotenketsu and The Three Act structure IS the lack of conflict in some stories. For example, the slice of life genre is incredibly popular in Japan, most SoL stories don't have any "real conflicts" Similar to other plot structures though, you can apply these to other genres, change it up a bt, and make it work for most stories Eastern stories tend to be more character driven than plot driven, that's why a zombie movie like Train To Busan is so incredibly acclaimed, its because of the character writing In contrast to western films like World War Z where it's literally hollywood only caring about the zombies and action I am aware of what conflict is and how there can be internal or external conflict, give me a little credit here haha

@@MonitorComics I haven't read that much slice of life manga but from what I have seen there is usually at least some emotional conflict either between characters or within them. I agree that it is less intense and almost always at a smaller scale but I think it is still an important part of the story. I also agree that eastern storytelling is (emphasis) generally more character driven, but I don't think there is necessarily a connection between character focused writing and writing with no/dramatically reduced conflict. That is, I think conflict is inseparably tied to both character and plot driven writing. Personally, I think World War Z sucks ass because it is a terribly executed movie plagued by production issues rather than the writing philosophy of its creators. For a counter example, I think Death Note is also a very plot-centric narrative, to wildly different effect. Basically what I am trying to say is that I think you could easily write an eastern style story with a western structure and vice versa, because these structures are fundamentally similar. Interesting to discuss though!

@@jimjimson6208 I do agree with your last point, all of these plot structures are universal and essentially "do the same thing" Some people just prefer one over the other for whatever reason, that's why there's so many of them. At the end of the day it's just "make a story with a beginning middle and end" To your point about Slice of Life, I think you are mostly referring to one with the Drama tag or Romance tag as well. Slice of Life stories like K-ON, Nichijou, etc have basically no conflict, and if there is a "problem" in the chapter it is easily resolved without any issue In K-ON, it is literally just girls making a band and playing music, there are no rivals or drama or issues, they just write songs and perform every chapter With Death Note, while it is plot focused, I'd argue that everyone remembers the dynamic between L and Light very well. The series felt like a character study specifically for Light, he went from a normal kid to a serial killer to a literal psychopath

@Monitor Comics I think the argument can be that rather than conflict being absent, it's simply de-emphasized and/or just more subtle. More internal by nature of priority being put on characters development. But perhaps my impression stems from not really understanding what "ten" is. For all intent and purpose, it doesn't sound much different from "conflict" in other narrative structures tbh but that may have to do with me not really grasping the nuaince of what "ten" is and how it differs from "conflict". Depending on the answer I think I could point to some western examples of this narrative structure tho (perhaps without the realization of the authors)

@@fatalblue Ten is the twist ending, the easiest I can think of where this is used often is 4 koma manga. Each panel represents a different part of the structure (ki, sho, ten, ketsu)

Glad you enjoyed the video! I try to cover all things related to making comics and manga, so if if there's anything else you are interested in learning, please let me know!

Valid points!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! That was a good explanation!

It is pretty much the same as the Three Act Structure. At the end of the day, a story has a beginning, middle and end right. These plot structures just help you visualize what that journey could look like in your story A lot of western media is plot focused, of course not ALL of them, but a good amount of them. Take horror movies for example, you most likely remember the villain characters like Michael Myers, Freddy Kruger, The Nun, Jason Vorhees etc But do you remember ANY of the main cast? Other movies like Insidious have memorable PLOTS, but I couldn't even tell you the main character's name A lot of western stories tend to be like that. With Eastern stories though, there is more emphasis on the character writing Take for example the worldwide success of Train to Busan and Parasyte. Both had VERY MEMORABLE casts of characters With eastern stories, the plots are important too, but it doesn't have to be the "main thing." The easiest example to think of is slice of life anime, most are lighthearted day to day events. There are no major problems or conflict, its just the characters doing things Kishotenketsu basically says you don't need a conflict to tell a story. If you have one great, but it isn't a huge focus in some eastern stories

@@MonitorComics Thank you for explaining, I understand better, just one more question if you don't mind me asking. What do you mean by "not all stories need a conflict"? I understand how slice of life wouldn't need a major conflict for the main character to overcome, but with a lot of the anime's that you mentioned/showed in your video, like chainsaw man and demon slayer, do have a conflict or some sort've challenge/goal for the main character to achieve and or overcome??? Also, I'm a storywriter too 😃 So how would I incorporate kishotenketsu into my story too? Since my story does have a main antagonist, it doesn't really have any major conflict or goal for the main character to achieve, well, I guess my protagonist's goal would be to defeat the antagonist and make the world a better place(since she's a superhero)

@@FishyFishSalmonFish It's kind of similar to Freytag's Pyramid in the sense that it has been modernized over time Freytag's Pyramid used to always be about tragedy but nowadays people replace the tragedy part with "resolution" so it can apply to a lot of other stories Kishotenketsu is similar in the sense you CAN have a conflict if you want, but it is not required. With Demon Slayer specifically you could think of it like Ki (Intro): Tanjiro is introduced, we see his normal everyday life with his family. Story begins when a demon kills his family Sho (Development): Tanjiro becomes a demon slayer, meets allies like Zenitsu and Inosuke. Fights various demons on missions. The demon slayer corps are explored when the hashira are introduced Ten (Twist) This could be many instances. The first being the reveal that Nezuko is a demon who still has human emotions, Tanjiro unlocking the hinokami kagura, etc. Any reveal that adds complexity to the story would count as this Ketsu (Conclusion) This can be seen in major story arcs and battles where conflicts are resolved and there's closure Like the other plot structures, kishotenketsu can be used for individual story arcs rather than the entire story. Also like every plot structure, you do not need to abide to it completely, doing your own thing sometimes helps the story

@@MonitorComics Thank you so much, I understand now 😊 !!!!!

@@MonitorComics Why would you lie to your audience and say it's different in the video but be honest in this comment and say that they're effectively the same?

Was it before they went Woke or was it during the First Ironman movie.

Based

@@arnowisp6244 Honestly, I want to say after Iron Man movie.

@@MonitorComics Based on I'll written stories like the latest Peter Pan, crew cartoon called Velma, The mockery of Classic Disney films with live action ones. She-Hulk may I say more at this point?

Yes! That would fall under my Editorial Commissions!

This! 😂 Same here. Whenever I want to plot out a story, I look back at the animes and mangas that inspired me, and try out some of the techniques

I’m not monitor comics of course but I do have advice. However trends in anime tend to revert back to old trends. The difference is to add something new with a twist. For example, a strongman going against magic isn’t new in anime but Magic and Muscle puts a spin on it by focusing more on the trope combative wise. Here’s my suggestion. Take what you like (Let’s use Tsunderes as an example) and display it differently. For example, Tsunderes are romanticized but what if someone talked about how much it would actually suck dating one irl?

My advice is take advantage of nostalgia. The typing sounds of a virtual keyboard are from a typewriter made over a 100 years ago. There is no other purpose to the sound other than nostalgic emotions. That is also why phone cameras still have a shutter sound, it was implemented on purpose for nostalgia that is part of human nature. If you have an art style that is unique and nostalgic of early 2000's than that a bonus. Also another advice is connections. That is why so many artists go to colleges like CALarts or SCAD despite it being waaaay overpriced. One way to make connections without going to those expensive colleges though is just by helping out other artists and writers with their dream projects.

@@Ditteauxessay VERY TRUE. I love that example you gave, might have to write that one down LOL

There is no "right answer," when you are trying to be a comic artist, you need to go where the readers are. Right now that is webcomic platforms like Webtoons and Tapas. MangaPlus Creators is HUGE right now and the best place I would recommend. With platforms though, you cant be sure WHO is going to read your work, there are always going to be people who don't like it, but you might find some who DO Even if you go the traditional publisher route, their job is to just get your work in front of an audience. Its hard to "cherry pick" who gets to read it, unless you paywall your content and advertise a specific way. For example you could lock chapters on Patreon and advertise everywhere "to read a story about ____. please support me here" Hopefully that helps a bit!

First, make sure you can even make it. Not just put out whenever. Make a time frame of when you can finish it. It's a good means of understanding your limits.

I think you are more on the right path!! When I was reading about Kishotenketsu I was also confused by that part because a lot of modern manga (shojo, seinen, shonen) follow a story structure WITH a conflict Like you said, 4-koma are usually credited when talking about Kishotenketsu, I realized that more when I made a video specifically about yonkoma I do believe that was my mistake in this video, so I apologize that that part was confusing. Thank you for adding your own thoughts and clarifying!

It's not really that different. He also makes a few interesting claims regarding there being no need for conflict, but that doesn't check out: Every story needs conflict, both internal and external. Even episodic, slice-of-life comedies have conflict, though not in the swords-out sense.

I'm agree, i saw Dr Black Jack is an interesting manga i want to read it and sadly i can't found physical manga with translation T_T

@@karistartnotenough6358 the first three volumes are available in English. The rest are OOP and really expensive.

Not better, just different. Some stories simply lend themselves to different structures. If someone was immersed in character driven stories then a plot driven story may stand out to them more.

@@noneofyourbusiness7965 ok yea thats a better way to interpret it

I try to think of story structures as a starting point, it gives you a light roadmap of what *should* happen to make it well written. Following it 1/1 will make it feel generic and like everything else though, so many writers experiment and do their own thing. Take a story like Attack On Titan for example, it is told out of chronological order. That is one way to change things up and make it interesting!

@@noneofyourbusiness7965 Perfectly explained!!

its not a special manga writing method or "japanese" specialty, its just a general story telling structure to make it more interesting. And its nothing different, even my middle school teacher taught us to write essays that way, so you could focus more on your story.

Excellently explained, thank you.

Love that one!

Nah. This is hownhe roles. Some people really do present like they are AI. Causing problems for students who have their work flagged as AI generated.

I try to structure my videos like how I would structure a paper I would hand in at college. I always outline my video with basic talking points like "Catchy Intro/Hook. what is Kishotenketsu, why do people use kishotenketsu, how is it different, a few examples, and a conclusion paragraph to wrap everything up" I only had time to make a short video this week so I only included one example this time but I'm sure anyone who watches this could look for more and think about how stuff they've seen or read applies to it

Thank you! The manga is "Interview With Monster Girls"

@@MonitorComics TYYY ♥