I just started shooting recurves this year. Actually my first year of archery in general. I started with instinct and I was impressed that i could even hit the target at 20 yards. I shoot 3 under with a 45lb 28inch draw lenght bow. Its what i got for now. I can not gap aim for the life of me My mind studders for some reason trying to aim the tip at the target and i will completely wiff all my shots. Im dead on at 20yrds shooting instinctively. I will just keep practicing and experiment more techniques.

The problem with "shoot by feel" is that you never know 100% what the feeling should be. Those who practise enough instinctive will ingrain that feeling over many distances and hundreds of shots, but inherently there's an amount of guessing involved in each shot. The opposite to this is "shoot by measurement" - whether it's gap, string walking, or sights. The reference points are pre-calculated, the guessing is removed and it relies entirely on the shot execution. There is, objectively, a more consistent method. If the goal is to be more consistent, instinctive is least reliable way to attain that. But "more consistent" isn't the absolute measurement of what method is "better". There are goals where instinctive is inherently necessary - when the target is moving or when the shooter is moving. If there's one part of your discussion I disagree with, it's the supposed problem in correcting for bad form. With instinctive, yes, you can correct by aiming off. This is technically true for any method of shooting - if an Olympic archer for some reason keeps pulling their arrows right in competition and can't figure out what's wrong, they have to work with what they have and aim off. If I'm gapping and my set of arrows is a bit too stiff, I aim off. But at the end of the day, when you are learning any method of shooting, you don't correct for bad form. _You correct your form._ With a controlled aiming method, you _know_ what your good shot is. You know that if you aim at this spot and execute the exact steps needed, it will hit where you want it to. The mental process doesn't have to be "What do I need to do to bring the shot on target?", it's "I already know what to do - I just need to do it". The underlying weakness with instinctive - specifically snap shooting - is that the archer doesn't give themselves the time to check that they are doing everything 100% right, so the result will not be 100% consistent. That might be fine for shooting a swinging block at 10 metres. It might not be fine for a 50m gold shot. Which method is better depends on what the goal is.

I keep bouncing between instinctive and gap in search of finding “what really works” for me. This video is the nail on the head for my struggles. I need not choose one OVER the other. They are both useful tools in the quiver of sorts. I love your approach re: consistency and fun. If what you’re doing isn’t fun…why do it in the first place!

Your videos helped me build my first bow many years ago, and I still love watching all your videos now. I love your perspective on things, and how encouraging you are! Thank you for all your hard work ❤🙏

OK, good episode. So I'm getting back into archery after decades off (college to retirement). The thing that tightened up my groups the most was "string blur". Once I got consistent on where my string blur was relative to the bow, I got better quick. I even made a small orange paint dot on the back of the bow mid way up the sight window to place the string blur there. Not much talk about string blur, but seems important ...

I found your channel I believe earlier this year. You've been such an inspiration to me, Kramer. Thank you for everything you do! I also enjoy it when you make jokes and all. Your humor really makes me smile or laugh. I have learned so much watching your videos. Thank you so much! x100

I don't usually subscribe to channels, but from the get-go, your videos have just been fun to watch. You keep it real....hoodies and uncombed hair (I have none so it's a moot point for me). I recently lost the full use of my legs and was pretty pissed off for a bit, but I am over that and on to what I CAN do. The VA got me started with archery through their rec therapy program and I have been annoying the local archery range owners ever since. I have been working recurve since the beginning and have recently been gifted with an older compound which I would like to eventually get good at as well. But for now, I am trying to form the best foundation I can using Barebow. I will be traveling the country with my Aussiedoodle playing Frisbee and shooting arrows for probably the rest of my life. I would love to meet you and have a beer or a coffee and maybe interview you for my "What's your Hustle" channel which will be devoted to entrepreneurs and aimed at the younger generation to hopefully inspire. Keep up the fun videos and thanks for keeping it real!

3 under and instinctive here. I started out using split-finger but I couldn't stop pinching the arrow and it caused blisters to form between my fingers. Gap is probably the smart way to go when it comes to constant accuracy but instinctive just feels way better knowing you can hit where you aim just by pulling the string back.

Good stuff Kramer. Love the discussion. Started trad archery 3 years ago and tried pretty much all forms of shooting. Ultimately, I settled on instinctive using split finger. I never really grasped the concept of gap shooting, especially in hunting situations when not completely sure of the distance. Also, I have more fun shooting instinctive. Keep up the great work!

As a guy who needed shoulder surgery when he picked up recurve archery for the goal of hunting I had to change my form to accommodate for pain. I now had my shoulder fixed and still shoot the same way because it works. I'm pretty accurate with it. I shoot instinctively and shoot better at animals than I do at an indoor range.

This is the best video I've seen on this subject Kramer, thanks for posting! I've been making/shooting bows for decades; tried and hunted compound bows (with all the accessories) for a couple of years but came back to instinctively shooting homemade bows. I also like moving targets and shooting in hunting type environments. IMHO, gap shooting is OK in a flat, open field target situation but not as practical for hunting moving animals in the bush, at random distances, where the focus has to be on the target, not on the tip of the arrow. Gap shooting works IF you have time and are good at judging distance (most people are not). Each to their own. Cheers!

I absolutely love that I was just wondering what is the difference, I've shot compounds for a few years, got my first recurve and what a good challenge it is Thank you for the content its incredible 😎

I have been doing this since 1965 and that was before the 'three under' and 'compound' clucks existed. This is an actual explanation for Instinctive aiming and how to do it. First thing-a released arrow does not go in the direction it is pointed. It goes in the direction the string travels when released (except for some minor deviations due to Physics). Now using the Mediterranean draw, I anchor with my index finger at a missing tooth in my upper jaw. In the last 4-5 inches of draw the arrow shaft and the sight window (or side of the bow) form a 'V' in the archer's view. This 'V' is where your 'target' is placed. Practice doing this during the last 4-5 inches of the draw because to hold steady for very long at full draw never worked for me. Canting the bow reduces the vertical distance between your eye and the arrow shaft and opens up the 'V' somewhat. This is useful at shorter distances because it decreases the angle of elevation of the arrow. With my 50 pound longbow, I am usually near vertical at forty yards. Since it is necessary to keep your eyes fixed on your 'target', forty yards is all the farther I can shoot reliably, but that has usually been enough.

First year of traditional archery for me with my little Samick Sage. I'm a member of a local field archery club, which is great fun. I don't have binocular vision, which makes distance estimation difficult, but for some reason I seem to *get* instinctive shooting and hit 95% of the targets in decent scoring positions. I must say I hold more than in your example shots, but that's more to steady myself, rather than aiming.

Love your Videos mate. Been shooting for just over 6 months. Really enjoy your take on it all. Been really helpful

Thanks for taking the time to record this. I’ve been researching gap shooting for an episode of my podcast and much of what you have said I am planning to cover. I’ve shot instinctive pretty much since day one of picking up a bow. Though as a coach I teach both methods I personally find it very difficult to shoot gap. It doesn’t sit well with me. I also completely agree that io be good in instinctive shooting your arrow count needs to either go up or you have to have very good “quality” practise. Where you focus is really dialled in. One last thing is to say I personally think the phrase instinctive is wrong, it’s more intuitive feel to shooting. Thanks again

I just found your videos are I'm getting alot out of them. I've been shooting and hunting with a recurve for 40 years. I recently started wearing glasses and had to adjust much of my shooting style. Always an adventure with traditional archery!

And that's why I shoot a messy mix ofboth. I usually shut or squint the eye not in the line of the arrow. I focus on the spot I want to hit but I'm still a little conscious about where the tip of the arrow is. It's kind of messy but it works for me

Great job on the discussion. Keep up the channel and the great products

Good information..i find that shooting instinctively at un-verified distances with 3 under works better for me or it just might be a psychological thing. When I gap shoot with split fingers…it’s more methodical/ mechanical and very accurate for punching holes at known distances.. I think trad bow hunting instinctively is where it’s at but takes more practice.

I shoot instinctive and liken it to throwing a rock. When you're throwing a rock, you don't need to think about how to improve your aim; all you need to do to get better at it is to throw more rocks.

You should try the comanche style shooting it doesnt have knocks on the arrows that click onto the string. And you pinch the end of the arrow and never pull the string with your fingers. Just the arrow against the string with you pinching the arrow. It makes it where you can fire extremely fast.and even thumb release

I always enjoyed the last few minutes of light at the range, shooting a orange spot target. Shooting split finger instinctive, i was always surprised how tight my group's were when I could hardly see the arrow....

Dude this video is SOLID! I have been shooting for a few years now and just aim that thing and let'er rip and am usally pretty good inside 20-25 yards but I want to be deadly accurate and more consistent for etical reasons when hunting. For some reason I think my shooting style falls somewhere in between gap and instintive i dont know if that makes sense . I generally look at the target and have the arrow in my periphery and let it fly when my mind tells me to . I am going to give this a try too see what works best for me and is more repeatable. I dont like guess work. Thanks for sharing your outlook on this topic.

I started in compound, shot with friends who shot; gap, and face walking. I read the various methods and learned string walking. But found I was not great at guessing distance and then string walking which I am good at, found I was bad at guessing closely but did pretty good instinctively but as mentioned takes a lot of practice.

I would never explain it better! You är 100% right Kramer! I have exakt the same experience exept I dont shoot gap but moustly split vision or instinktiv. When Im on the competition I hade a trouble becouse I go betwen instinktive up to my point on but then I go to split vision when I pass my point on. I would like to stick just with one of them but this is how I work. Thank you for intresting and nice videos! Greatings from Sweden

I've tried gap a couple of times. Yes, at longer ranges my groups are tighter-but, I really don't like 3 fingers under and holding anchor to aim on my hunting bow. To me, gap shooting is so similar to compound shooting (which I gave up in 1998), that I might as well go back to wheels if I'm shooting trad/gap. But, it does allow new archers to become accurate much quicker.

A fixed crawl is my preferred method for the woods. Split vision/ instinctive is prefer for fun shooting

I see my shooting form as a hybrid. If not snap shooting, the bow and arrow tip are in my peripheral vision and I am referencing it as I focus on the spot I want to hit. That tends to build muscle memory and hand eye coordination that allows me to take snap shots at unmeasured ranges while hunting. When I hunted with a compound in the 80s I used the same technique since I shot fingers and no sights. Let offs weren’t as high even with cam bows at the time so semi snap shooting was possible even with my Vector.

They are the same thing, just depends whether you focus on the arrow gap more or the target more. Brain is calculating the same trajectory with the same information either way. Have posted this publicly on various sites for over 10 years.

I’m just tarting off with arches and have been taught to shoot with gap. But my compensation point keeps changing every time I shoot. Now I thought it was an eye things but I’m still working on correct my form to get consistent shots when possible. I guess I’ll try shooting it the instinctive way and see if it works for me.

Hi Kramer! I started with a Longbow , and did so for 10 years, and I did it by instinctive using split finger glove, and on Competitions at times I suffered Target panicking. I tried split vision as well So this year I started GAP shooting, and my panic targeting was gone. It was hard in the beginning to figure out the distance to the targets( I counted distances with help of nearby trees, but on open fields I was lost. I also have changed from split fingers to 3 under with a Tab, which works better than glove. And at the moment I use all, in other words, I use Gap combined with Instinctive, and that works even better, and my mind calculate better the distance to targets without Me think about it. On short distance its a great help with Gap on a 3D course, on longer Instinctive together with GAP works great. Im using a 45lbs Longbow, with full length Bamboo Arrows

I respect the archers who can shoor pretty accurate with instinctive. Personally I shoot gap with a compound, what is a little bit different from the normal point-gap shooting, because I've only shot once by directly putting the arrowpoint to the target, simply because the distance was about 110 meters (~120 yards), so I'm using the side of my riser for the calculating. Maybe it works for me better, because after I learned how to shoot, my first bow was a compound bow with hunter equiptments. With my traditional bow I experience with more techniques (both release techniques and aiming techniques), what I know not the best for the stabil frequent shooting, but it's kinda fun.

i'm an open minded instinctive archer, the no 1 key to hitting where you want is consistency form, no matter how you aim. i can shame a decent recurve archer on some rounds with perfect form while shooting instinctive, at 25m, but the next round im happy with hitting the target at all. one of the biggest pro's that i found on instinctive as well is that you can shoot different stuff about equally, eventually,. i can "see" the trajectory that my arrows make in my mind and "know" how to achieve it. after a couple of shots im almost as accurate with another bow, or with a different length arrow as well. with gap you would have to learn all the gaps before you can actually hit something with new equipment.

I shot split finger, instinctive for 60 years. Then switched to 3 under and gap. My accuracy greatly improved with gap. I have found form is more critical with gap. Good video. Thanks for the objectivity.

Some great insights! I personally shoot instinctive more, just because i enjoy it more and i don’t hunt or anything so i don’t have to be the best

Great video, thank you!

I like gap to perfect my form. IE if my group is tight then my form must be matching. I also like gap for tuning my bow and my arrows. I shoot an instinctive split during 3d competition . I find that my short sighted issue makes it hard to gap. If I wear my glasses I can't see the target, if I don't wear them I can't see my arrow that well. Hey I'm having fun and that is all I care

I found shooting both styles as they actually can compliment each other. Instinctive in particular can be helped by practice with gap shooting that builds muscle memory.

Not alot can properly explane instinctive, as its a very personal style of shooting. But you explained it as best you could for how you shoot. I gap shoot, my tip of arrow is my reference then my "instinctive" part is not taking too long aining. Ive found with me, if i get into a fast rhythm then my shots are better, also the less i think about it. I pretty much do what you would with a firearm..i start low go up until i feel that right moment to let go. But i do look at the target and nothing else when the arrown is knocked, so as i rise the bow im "burning" a hole at target.

I’ve only started my archery adventure this August and I’m curious to see how my DARTS 🎯 practice since last Christmas (got a board and darts as a present) is helping in instinctive archery! It works! So cool! But I’m practicing heavily with 60-100arrows every day for the last two months…

Excellent comparison! 🙇🏻‍♂️🏹

Thank you!

Good to know! 😊

To shoot instinctive you first need to know the gap. After shooting many arrows I find the gap magically disappears. If I change bows I need to go through the process again. This is my way and I am sure there may be other ways I am not aware of. The biggest problem people learning to shoot have is tuning the bow. If they can't shoot they will have a hard time tuning their bow.

Hey hello from Scotland , so there is a distinct lack of bow culture here ,( unless it's Target shooting wearing a white track suit) , so its really a valuable resource for us who are a little more traditional Cheers

Which method would you recommend for a beginner starting from scratch?

I find myself doing a mix of both. It feels instictive but I think I subconsciously use the tip of the arrow to aim.

I love your video, but the thumbnail is "Yo, Mr White" lol. I thought i missed a scene where Jesse goes all First Blood. I've been away from archery for 30 years, but videos like this are really pulling me in again.

I shoot both right and left handed and Ive come to find that if I try to aim,, Im gona be walking around looking for my arrow. If I dont aim but instead jus focus wher I want to hit and loose almost instantly after drawing Im pretty spot on

If it helps, Lars Anderson shot foam tipped arrows in LARP for years, and got really really good at instinctive. He shoots quarters out of the air. But it is nice to see that someone can just get good at both, why pick sides when they are both good? Plenty of deer have been taken with instinctive so you can't say it doesn't work.

Can you tell me what quiver you're using from about 1:20 to about 1:50? I'd like to try one of those.

Here's my interpertation of how Instictive is vs. Gap. Gap is like trying to teach a person who knows nothing about archery to shoot. Where as Instinctive is like a persone who has already done archery knows what it feels like and has the mucle memory of how to shoot correctly. @Kramer Ammons, is this correct?

Cool 😎 vid bro, as always 👌

Been doing archery for 20 years now (hard to believe). I did split finger instinctive for 17 of them. I FORCED myself to learn three under gap, and within the first month or two it became more reliable than all of my years experience with instinctive. The key term here is RELIABLE. When I'm on a role with instinctive, I feel like Robin Hood, I'll shoot fast and tight. But when I start shooting badly with instinctive, I can never quite pinpoint what the problem is. With gap, you have a better understanding of all of the steps involved, the steps are more observable, mistakes are easier to catch and understand. And another thing with gap, your first shot or group of the day is more often than not going to be fine, where as instinctive often needs a warmup. Yet another observation, instinctive has a "mental fatigue" aspect to it, as in you warmup a little, then you shoot your best, then at some point your skill drops off for the day even if you're not physically tired. Gap shooting you shoot okay, then peak, and the dropoff starts to happen due to a more overall physical fatigue. Holding anchor longer means my body starts to fatigue faster than the mind. The fix is a break. With instinctive a break might not fix anything at all. With instinctive I might shoot bad for a whole week with no real explanation. Oh, and you can still shoot pretty quick with gap, it's kind of like point shooting with a gun, you see the arrow as a "sight post" but it's in the back of your mind, you don't need to focus too hard on it, and you don't need to hold anchor for a long time. It's a sort of hybrid between instinctive and gap. Sometimes I resort to this when I'm having fun. I refuse to believe in all of the thousands of years of archery existing that three under gap shooting is purely a modern invention. 99.999% of ancient bows and arrows are lost forever.

kramer u r a humble man and u r ok.. i just thought i would say this. richard

How many times did you practice that intro shot without looking lol.

I don’t look at my arrow when I shoot. I use my riser and judge how far up the riser I need to aim depending on the distance.

What is the shooting glove you're using?

I think we should exchange the word "instinctive" to "intuitive", since instinct is something animals are born with, while intuition is a sort of non conscious knowing that we can learn to grow within us. Good video! Thanks!

My whole life I have done an Instinctive Gap or Howard Hill style since 1998 and as a 9 year old I was not using a smaller undersized little kids bow. I did not know I was doing that until I got into archery again in 2019, Then got the new book Howard Hills Method of Shooting the Bow and Arrow by Jerry Hill after watching Hitting em like Howard Hill by John Lee a month earlier finding out I am Instinctive Gap/Howard Hill. I thought I was 100% Instinctive without the arrow and this is not the case but turns out I am using an Instinctive Gap. I love the fact that I could when I get better hunt with the bow easier then having to make a Fixed crawl for String Walking or having to get good at knowing distances for true Gap but not having to practice nearly as much as a a pure instinctive. This also allows me to switch setups for myself and not need to use the same diameter arrow nice since I love aluminum and they tend to vary in diameter.

This is just what I needed thanks

what weight bow do you use

Instinctive is best for me, my brain can perform miracles. It also makes more sense in all real world scenarios.

Hey I know you've already done your bow review series but I don't remember seeing lightning archery 62" takedown bow if I'm wrong please correct me

I'm on the instinctive side of things, I just look where I want the arrow to go and let it rip. I never had much formal teaching, I also shoot from the right side of the stave with Mediterranean draw so there isn't much help on that side of things. Learn your bow, know your arrows and all is good. Oh and string the bow upside down so as you apply more tension it pulls the shaft closer in rather than making it twist outward. Worth bearing in mind that I don't hunt with one (very much illegal over here) but I have been using a bow for around 40 years :)

Why not USE BOTH? Shot or just Mood depending ?

I spent my entire childhood not knowing that the gap method existed and fortunately I didn't need to know. At 10 yards I was able to on a bad day strike a coin sized target about 1" in diametre using a cheap fiberglass bow 50% of the time. For not aiming in the traditional sense it is very hard to argue that the technique produced poor results. On top of this I have only ever shot with a thumb draw and it just feels so odd trying to place an eye outside of the bowstring to line up the point.

Best conclusion ever!! Is it fun? Do that!!!😂

Great stuff my friend I do prefer instinctive shooting. God bless Kramer.

I can't remember where I heard it, but someone told me a while back that instinctive is better for archers who are very dedicated and consistent with practice. Gap is better for people who don't always have time to practice. I think you hit the nail on the head by basically explaining that same point. Instinctive takes much more time and shots on the target to really get in tune with that style and gap is something you can walk away from for a while and come back shooting the same way you did last time assuming you're using the same set up. Also I 100% do think gap is better for still target shooting, which honestly includes hunting too. With how most peoples lives are, I think gap is much more practical for most people who are only shooting to shoot a standing still target or to practice hunting, but also don't have a couple of hours every day to practice. That being said, I shoot instinctive and 100% prefer it over gap myself just because I like how it feels.

As it stands for me I can only shhot instictive on bare bow My anchor point is low to the point were in need to look down to see the tip of my arrow So gap is a no go for now

Ive said I make my best shots when i dont shoot i let myself do it for me and people look at me with those straight jacket eyes

does it matter if the bow is shelved? i have a true trad bow that does not, its a straight stick

I really LIKE that I don't have to Hit - 1.5 x playback , nearly never 1.25 x and never 2x (maybe once...) | Nice to be Normal p.s. You do 48" strings in Red/White/Blue? ;-)

Great and direct

You explain it well. The subconscious can process thousands of more processes than the conscious mind. So I would bet my money on intuitive shooting. But, it takes more practice

I'm left eyed and right handed--so if I were to gap shoot I'd need to close my left eye. I don't like that at all! I really enjoy the Zen of concentrating exclusively on one small part of the target before and during the draw, and drawing and releasing in one fluid movement. It's good for my mind and spirit. I don't want to think at all during a shot.

have fun....what ever you do do it always the same way,there is no right or wrong just tips they may help you!" have fun

Have you ever tried thumb draw?

2 yrs Thumb Release instictnive ... But pulled of great Aimed Down the arrow shots too... If my first don' hit second one does.... and the third.... Don't fire four because that's how I break them... ;-)🙏

Started instinctive , and once refining technique for cleaner shots, i just cant do anything else, but id argue an instinctive shooter could make a quicker, accurate shot slight faster than gap

My aiming eye is terrible and it's hard to shoot with glasses on, so instinctive has been my go to and I'm decent tbh

I’ve gotten to where I like fixed crawl.

awesome.God bless.

instinctive is better and easier. In hunting, solid accuracy is not a drastic problem because of shooting at big targets in any point of body instead of circuluar lines at olympics.

I shoot instinctive & I plan on getting a fiber optic site later in the spring I want to be dead on target for hunting .

I shoot gap for deer and instinctive for birds

Makes me wonder about archers in combat more back when they were a staple in war…. Seems there’s been a lot of technical knowledge of archery lost for the most part

I've always thought that instinctive shooting was just gap shooting, but entrusting it to the subconscious to do the calculations. With enough info (practice) your subconscious brain will instinctively gap shoot all day long. Which having read it back seems obvious. I suppose what I'm trying to say is both are the same method, the best shots I've ever taken have been instinctive. However you've got to be in the right frame of mind lol if your gap shooting is better, then it's due to instinct.

Kramer, have you ever shot a hole in your garage door? LOL

I will start out using gap. The more I shoot, my brain takes over and starts shooting instinctive. I think new shooters should not worry too much about choosing which way to aim/shoot. Their brains will eventually tell them what to do.

Great show brah. Thx :)

If we ask nicely would you consider building a horsebow of some type? Cmon mang. Cmon.

Commenting for the algorithm

My arrow is on the right l shoot on the fly

it seems you are confusing snap shooting with instinctive ... instinctive is not about quick shooting ... it's about not aiming consciously ...

Instinctive is not instinctive. It’s subconscious aiming using multiple indicators. There are a lot of “Instinctive” archers among the best trick shooters in the world.

SOME OF US have the worlds best computer between our years and behind the arrow.... you may use it or let an engineer that gets paid by you to make sure you never get good sell you targeting assistants that may or may not be with you when you NEED THEM FOOD on the Table TROPHY on the Mantle what is important to you?

Sounds like the goal is to "make the gap instinctual" 😏😉