Thank you for making this video! 👏🏾

It's weird that an unlikable character remains unlikable throughout the series for characters like tony stark he started out as a douchbag but giving him a character arc made him likable because he redeemed throughout his journey but filmmakers because their need to not show that female characters can lose or have flaws do give them a proper character arc to redeem themselves not to say we do not have good characters take beth harmon from she as a character in queen gambit had unlikable characteristics but throughout the series she not shown as a character without her flaws or doesn't know how to apologise when she knows she wrong and more importantly she only lashed out on people who take a dig at her first that's called a good not shoving all unlikable characteristics on to a character without the character feeling any guilt or remorse about it

Men v men interactions don’t require likability? Must be talking about work because I’m not even interacting with you if I don’t like you and that has been most men I’ve come across lol maybe our definitions are looser for each other 🤷🏾‍♂️

I dislike you

You sad Hillary Clinton lose election

💯

THIS.

Precisely, Amy is judged just because she's a woman, yet she commits the same crimes as her male counterparts. Amy is outwardly charming, and once she finds out that Nick is cheating on her, she contacts a plan to make him Rue the day.

Problem is they consider the Joker and Tyler to be cool and charismatic, or "real" and deep, not unlikable.

Who is Amy Dune?

Tell that to all the internet. Specialy gamers.

Male or female if character is a prick I will hate the character

Right, the rules of writing don't magically change when the only difference is genitalia. I don't understand why writers treat male and female characters differently.

I was thinking just this. They literally have examples of unlikeable women in tv and film that are a success because the execution of the story and motives of the characters make more sense.

@@Kagiso22 I think that's partly the point of the video. Not to claim that no unlikeable women characters exist at all, but that traditionally the only criticism you need of certain unsuccessful projects is, "That (female) character is unlikeable." As if that explains everything.

Exactly! being "unlikable" is the least of her problems. Yes she's an "unlikable" character but in comparison to other shows the narrative never addresses her behaviour as a problem. It never criticises her.

that applies to multiple male characters who are never called unlikeable though...

She didn't know he was a teenager. She mistook him for his older brother. I'm not holding that against her.

Emily treats Parisian French people the way Parisians treat everybody else.

There are Bubbly characters that are well writen or developed by her actress like Elle Woods or Leslie Knope, for example. Emily was just making fun of europeans and feeling a better person for being american most of the time. I hated the first three episodes of that show and stopped because of it. Not because she was optimistic.

Every charakter and the story way super boring. That was the problem.

tall girl, there are children starving in africa. i think you can cope with size 13 nikes.

The Tall Gril film was just a fever dream that someone filmed because they hate everyone's intelligence

Was she toxic? I found her pretty real, and the best part of a dull and facile movie.

@@eduardopantoja9115 tall girl is heightist. 6 ft 1 isn't even that tall in terms of the whole population. tall girl would have no problem navigating the world other than maybe having to buy men's clothes sometimes.

Yes I always wondered why people hated Beck like she never did anything badder than Joe

@Erwin Lii The thing about Joe is that he’s clever and interesting. Beck is kinda interesting too, but do you not root for characters like Joe even a little? Like Walter White or Amy Dunne or Patrick Bateman? I do, because they’re protagonists and you’re supposed to root for them, it makes the message even more clear because you have to address the cognitive dissonance. And even if you don’t, it’s still enjoyable. It’s easier to root for a murderer than a cheater because most people don’t deal with murderers and we also see them as interesting because it’s one of those far removed things that’s fun to explore. Safely. See also: violent video games.

@Erwin Lii I really wanted Love to win the fight between her and Joe.

@@Ergoperidot I don’t root for him. Walter White would not stalk, harass, cage, or murder women for his own sick gratification. As a woman I can say I’ve met a lot of men who have shades of Joe in them and that absolutely terrifies me.

Thank👏🏿you👏🏿

Not true. Exhibit A: no one has called Scarlet Witch a Mary Sue and most people like her.

Is it the same people who are complaining about both of those things?

Wrong Ripley from aliens was badass and nobody calls her a Mary Sue

@@ericq9579 Honestly, the names "Ripley" and "Sarah Connor" unravel almost everything in this video. If you ask me you can add "Cersei Lannister" to them as well. As long as the show was good nobody cried about her character being bad because she was despicable, at least no more than they hated Joffrey, the Boltons, or the Freys for similar reasons. Or what about Daenerys for that matter? I can't say anyone would want "will crucify opponents" on a list of desirable traits for a co-worker but that never stopped her from being a major draw for the show. It's almost as though this video specifically cherry-picks what works for its narrative and ignores what doesn't.

I hate guy characters 2. I hate Neredith Grey but I also dislike Peter Burke from White collar . You can’t tell ppl who to like and dislike

I find the only real way I can watch a show like Mad Men and enjoy it, is to go in reminding myself that every character, both male and female, is an unlivable POS in their own way.

@@rudeartist lol i love this

But remember that Betty was the one who put up the biggest front, even if Don was arguably the biggest liar. I think that's the distinction, at least for me. I didn't dislike Betty though, but I can see why others would. She lies to herself and others with the things she says and does, just like Don, but she gets mad at him, so that makes her seem hypocritical I suppose. Honestly, the whole show is filled with flawed characters, and I love it!

@@Zeverinsen yeah I get that, I'm just arguing that she is a good character rather than a good person. And she and Don are both shitty but there seems to be lot of love for Don and not Betty! I agree that they both suck and I love it too.

Same Betty was my favourite character. To me she's a tragic figure deserving of sympathy. Someone who played by all the 1950s rules and still came unstuck. I can relate to her frustration and bitterness at not knowing how to navigate your life forward. I felt for Betty as everyone treats her like her life is perfect and doesn't give her any room to vent.

To be fair though, Kristen Bell does a phenomenal job, as do the writers, in making Eleanor incredibly funny to watch, using humor to compensate how terrible she'd actually be to meet or know. In that sense Eleanor's honestly written a lot like an It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia character. I never realized until just now how similar to Deandra she is in the way she talks and acts.

but even those points are almost never raised about male characters. I love complex characters, but there are always going to exist movies that don't really aim for complexity and that should be ok as well. People seem to have a bigger list of demands for female characters

Yes. That was what I was thinking. If there are no motivations even with people who naturally do things for no reason, how can we want to follow them even if we disagree. Also, their interactions and dynamics with other characters make is want to follow them. If they are completely boring, what is the point?

The same people that complain about unlikable female leads also complain about female leads that are Mary Sue's. I think they just don't like female leads period.

You would LOVE Crazy Ex Girlfriend, a phenomenal show

Love even comments in the show that she murdered out of passion, she didn’t premeditate like Joe always did. He basically calls her a rookie and she points out that if you’re going to be a murderer, it’s better (though not much) to do it out of anger than to plan it days in advance. It’s really interesting because Joe’s cognitive dissonance is enough to stop loving her for being a murderer and also disdain the fact that she doesn’t plan ahead.

Maybe I’m psychotic lol but I think a character that is a cold and calculating makes for a much more fun and interesting character than one that murders out of passion. That being said, I like Love too. She’s more interesting than Beck anyway.

I don’t necessarily think Love and Joe are that similar beyond their serial killer ways. Fundamentally speaking, Love can’t understand Joe because a big part of why he is the way he is is because of his upbringing and it also makes him fiercely protective of kids, which Love proves she’s not by killing Delilah and trying to frame Ellie for murder. So even though she understands his darkness she can’t understand where it’s coming from and why he wants to get rid of it and Joe can’t understand her either because she grew up wealthy so surviving means something completely different to her than it does to him. Plus the fact that she wants to be killer couple and feels exhilarated by covering up murders together while he feels disgusted just goes to show how different they really are

I wanted Joe to die at the end. Love had a much more interesting arc this season and while nobody she killed deserved to die they were certainly not as tragic as Beck or Peaches.

I never watch You because I thought it was creepy that Man being toxic and killing people

I wholly agree; it was never about her being "bubbly" or positive, it was about how racist and poorly written the show is.

@@ldra795 friendly space ninja has a really good video about the problems with Emily in Paris

@@sapphiretears1993 Oh, I've watched it and thoroughly enjoyed listening to a French person's perspective!

Yeah and I really disliked the "america good, french weird" vibe. And the permanent lack of consequences when she messed up. That what annoying.

@@ldra795 racist?

its because of misogyny

ohhh THIS. and especially when women themselves give these criticisms, its highly likely they stem from a place of internalized misogyny.

@Elizrebezilma Dommdo -- this should have way more likes.

TRUE LMAO 🤣

White male*

I did not really have a problem with Emily. I had a love/hate relationship with her she did not ruin the show for me. I agree. It was portraying everyone around her as worse just to make her more likable. Create a balance. The worst part the writer/creator wrote 90210 which was more compelling because the characters were flawed and better written.

My problem with emily wasn't her happiness or bubbly personnality. It was the complete lack of consequences when she messed up. And the fact that the show seems to imply "french are weird, americans are heros doing things the good way" (that's how it felt to me)

@@cepahreinholt8710 i did not like that either or how every French person except Emily’s love interest is misogynistic or a philanderer did not sit right with me either.

Lilly Collins (with the Emily in Paris thing) is like the real-life Rory Gilmore. She is a privileged person that made a show, gets a lot of backlash and doesn’t even understand what’s going on. If she sees Emily as ‘bubbly and likable’ and that that’s our problem with her, then she needs some hard educating to do. Super tone-deaf and living in a bubble.

People were bending over backwards trying to justify Bojack's mistakes, while Diane, who separated herself from him to protect her own mental health, was the bad guy?

Honestly, I'm man enough to admit when BoJack ended and during season 4 I was being really shitty on the BoJack subreddit and railing hard against Diane as a character. Now I've probably completely 180'd my opinion on both characters.

Did Bojack fans hate Diane? It’s one of my favorite shows and she was always one of my favorite characters on it, probably third behind Bojack and Sarah Lynn

@@Ergoperidot Yes. My ex bf HATED Diane everytime she was on screen, calling her a “whiny feminist.” And not really elaborating any more on why he hated her character, but he never had the same complaints about Bojack or Mr. PB.

@@friendlyneighbourhooddegen4739 Lmao that’s crazy. Bojack was the most woe-is-me ass mfer in that show.

Please stop. Boys at my school got in trouble for less while the girls could get away with murder.

The worst is when people gaslight women by saying that it's the other way around in every way, while disproving that point in the process by comparing what they do to something criminal and pretending that guys can't also get away with the same things that a handful of (lucky) women might.

@@elizrebezilmadommdo1662 i agree with this so much 💯👍

@@elizrebezilmadommdo1662 i agree with this so much 💯👍

@@elizrebezilmadommdo1662 Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

They are pushing it here. For example, in Mad Men I didn´t dislike Betty Draper at all, I sort of understood her, but I disliked Don most of the time, but I didn´t watch for him nor I wanted him to prevail, I wanted Joan and Peggy to make it, even when they had their complexities as well.

@@alejandramoreno6625 Same.

Elle Woods is another great example, in my opinion, of a well developed bubbly and optiistic character. Leslie Knope aswell.

I feel like people don't talk enough about how great Kimmy Schmidt is as a character. The show she's in is great as well (although there's that infamous episode that discusses cultural appropriation on Asian culture that a lot of people don't like, I still think that it's a solid show).

Yassssss

I love that I see you literally EVERYWHERE I go, I'm almost certain I saw you in an IamEloho video, it might have been Madyson Brown tho, or Kenni JD I can't be sure.

Sierra was rewarded for her creepiness.

I agree

@@SnazzyArcade Hated that so much. She didn’t deserve the happy ending she got. She learned no lesson.

I actually liked that movie. I am not sure why it wasn't well received

It was a great film. Such a pivotal movie that showcases the stigma/struggles women/moms go through all the time!

I Don’t Know How She Does It is severely underrated! It was a great movie.

I agree with this. Unlikeable female characters are my favorites because if done well, they can become really interesting characters and relateable to alot of people.

This exactly.

I offer up that you do see it with men being labeled... But they don't use likable, they use boring, weak, uninteresting or not compelling. It's all the same. Those are qualities in men that determine likability.

You’re forgetting lots of intersectionality here.

@@singularity___ i agree 💯👍

@@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024 Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

Even though GOT ended poorly, I still to this day live for Cersei’s evilness.

@@theunknown5386 no none expects niceness form men. Being nice isn't a demanded quality from men. Men done even have to be agreeable and they will still be liked.

Loved Young Adult with its messy complex tale. Mavis was a great character because we all know someone like her, it’s a realistic portrayal of what adult life is.

@@friendlyneighbourhooddegen4739 I'm so with you on the Cersei love. Lena Heady's performance was magnificent. So much so that even though I loathe the character in the books, she's one of my favourites in the series - she gives pure malevolence so much style, with a bottomless goblet of wine!

@@theunknown5386 Nobody wants xpects niceness from male characters. Sherlock, Walter White, Billy Butcher, Don Draper, Joker - all male characters who exhibit A1 asshole behaviour but are beloved by men FOR that assholery. They are considered 'complex well written' characters. Do the same with women and you will never find men *idolizing* those female characters like they do with the above mentioned male characters. They will either hate it get annoyed by them, even if they claim it's a good character.

Fleabag was soooo good. I was sad it was only 2 seasons.

I think of a man, then take away all reason and accountability.

@@scottslotterbeck3796 so you write women like men then lol, you could have ended it there

@@spikebat It's a quote from someone else, a sexist someone.

Exactly. Shiv Roy and Wendy Byrde are meant to be unlikeable. That's why it's so fun to follow their stories, and also relate with their flaws. But then you have Emily, who the writers clearly wrote to be likeable, but she isn't. Ozark and Succession are self aware. Emily in Paris is not, and that's why it's inferior. Well that and also Succession and Ozark are far better shows in general.

@@lordfreerealestate8302 ahh, something about the first commenter didn't scream writer

Huh?? The entire point is that Joe is not inherently good at all. He’s inherently evil and a sociopathic murder.

exactlyy. it plays with society's expectations that a victim has to be perfect to be a victim.

@@witchplease9695 I’m not saying he’s inherently good. It’s an “IF” scenario which is what I’m guessing the producers of the show wanted to show because in the books, Joe has very little reason to be as psychotic as he is. But in the show, he has all these different back stories and empathetic characters (Paco, Ellie, Marriane) who show that Joe is at his core good or atleast trying to be which I think is a cheap way for the producers to make Joe likable.

@@shaemccoy7445 Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

@@HienPham-ow5ky don't get me wrong I think she (and the other mentioned characters) are A-holes. They still aren't the worst parts though. I don't think the time necessarily excuses them but to my knowledge and from my perspective their flaws don't come from being malicious like a lot of their male co stars. (Not forest, just other characters in story) .

Factz I love Jessica

Surprise. A well written character, well acted, and individually respected actress is absolutely loved.

The fact that she's unlikeable, doesn't mean she's not well-written and deeply developed. That's the huge difference between this character and Sierra Burges, for example.

That's because she's a GOOD CHARACTER 💀

Interestingly, her sister, Trish Walker got all the hate instead. Fascinating enough, her flaws turned out to be very intentional, and by season 3, Trish becomes a very fascinating tragic character. She is a great case study for how horribly child actors are treated and how it affects their spiral in their adulthood. Even though they clearly showcase that she went through immense physical, emotional and even statutory sexual abuse. That her life was so ridiculously controlled that she herself became obsessed with that idea of control. Yet nah, she is still hated and nobody discusses the amount of nuance and care that went into her character. Jessica Jones and Marvel/Netflix mostly was absolutely amazing because it wasn't beholden on safe corporate propaganda laws that main MCU has to abide (I love MCU, but they were pretty messy with their politics, FATWS was awful). They actually used superhero stories to explore so many relatable themes. I wish they got bigger attention.

Tbh that part of the male anti-heroes fandom does creep me out a little bit. Like at the end of the day, those characters are just hypothetical realities, and the story doesn't justify their actions despite showing their points of view which, obviously the character will believe themselves to be good or have redeeming qualities. But it's quite problematic when people actually take that perspective for the factual reality of that story.

Not to mention the show revealed both Bojack AND Diane's traumatic childhoods, but only Bojack's was taken into account by fans when they saw how it impacted his future actions.

@kshamwhizzle I also got that impression, which is why I believe they tried to compensate by making Walt downright evil in the final season compared to seasons prior, to the point where even his fanboys were appalled by the shit he did.

I'm definitely more hyper-critical on Bojack than Diane. Bojack did worse things than she did, bar none.

@@reneerodriguez7368 yes agreed! I think the reason I was initially more hard on Diane was because I "expected better" since she came off as the rounded character but I had to contemplate why I thought she couldn't fuck up in the same way others did. In the end, i was putting female characters at a higher standard and wanted her to be "likeable" more than human.

I think you make a very good point here. Had a conversation with someone about Korra from Legend of Korra and Katara from Avatar the last Airbender, and we were trying to figure out why Katara seems so likable compared to Korra even though Katara has her arrogant asshole moments. For me I like Katara more because I think Korra simply has more asshole traits then Katara does. But the person I was talking to said Korra is unlikable because she has no softer feminine ways about her and is basically a boy with boobs Because her attitude reads as male. Where as Katara counteracts her asshole moments by being prominently maternal and there fore caring. I kinda see where he was coming from but I still found it baffling.

@@Passions5555 did you make him confront his sexist view? It might've been subconscious and needed pointing out.

As I read your comment, they show "Entourage" comes to mind. None of the guys there are likable, yet many people like that show anyway. Not me though, and they baffle me.

@@aswaney7449 to be honest, I really don't bother with that with anyone because it's a trap. I don't necessarily think he was trying to be a troll (although he very well could have been) but most people who say and think this don't care if they are being sexist or not and can't be called out. And if they are being that way on purpose to make some kind of challenge you are just giving them what they want. A reaction. So I don't bother.

Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

@@HienPham-ow5ky So true about how a person's upbringing can influence their negative behavior. I haven't watched FG in a long time, but I remember I also empathized with Jenny. True that she rejected Forrest's love and affection in favor of hanging out with abusive men, but I think that is somewhat characteristic of alot of women. We always seem to be attracted to the better looking, edgier bad boy types at least in our youth before we mature and realize what truly connective love is and are ready to receive it. It really is unfair to all the good men out there and can be seen as an anti hero's tragic flaw.

RIGHT and ppl will say "theres a female gaze too! Look at those beefcakey men! Thats so unattainable" but uh.... yeah.... thats still the male gaze, women on the whole don't exclusively like muscle men

Both of you are right

Yeah, we also need to actively work on the internalized male gaze, since it’s deeper than just the media. It’s gotten into our minds and affects how we see ourselves and those close to us, not just characters in shows and films. We have some work ahead of us to undo this on all levels.

@@hobihope2981 the female gaze does not exist, and it’s mostly white feminism when people say it does.

@@hobihope2981 Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

Yeah..for instance, I don't like when people dislike characters just because they are morally bad or something. Don't get me wrong, I don't like toxic behavior being protrayed as cute or healthy. BUT if the nature of that attitude or the character in general is not really being justified and it's supposed to be ambiguous for example... Then why wouldn't I like the character despite not being a role model or whatever?

but even those points are almost never raised about male characters. I love complex characters, but there are always going to exist movies that don't really aim for complexity and that should be ok as well. People seem to have a bigger list of demands for female characters

@@Clara-in1fu I see your point, and complexity is not needed for a good character, I like to put Vin from Mistborn as an example, she isn't a complex character and her motives are displayed at the beginning of the story clearly, so even when she's murdering for no good reason I still understand because the emotions she is feeling are *very* human, when a character is human before she es female is when the writing is fulfilling, but If one of her main if not the main as it is in most cases characteristics is being a blank female character is when it falls flat quickly, like in the Charlie's angles reboot for example

@@Clara-in1fu That's because Hollywood just can't write good female characters. They skimp out on all the things that are actually important, because they think they have to write women differently.

That's because progress isn't linear. It's not that we are going backwards it's that we drop the ball on some things because we think it's done and sorted. It's the same way how ww2 we fought against nazis, then neglected to properly dealing with our own racism issues and now we have a growing and thriving neo nazi community. Progress and social growth/betterment needs to be fostered and maintained. It's like getting treatment for cancer you need to be focused, relentless and consistent and getting rid of it whilst also looking to keep the body safe from the intense treatment.

Scarlett gets the same sort of fandom as Walter, Tony or Don. She's a heinous piece of shit; but a lot of people love because 'pre-War Southern fantasy'.

All About Eve is another classic Hollywood great with conniving women.

Qualities are not everything. We feel sorry for the Joker (Phoenix's character) not because of his qualities, but because we empathize with his suffering in some level. But people love also love Heath Ledger's Joker because he's an interesting villain and a challenge to Batman. It's not about flaws and qualities, it's about how the story deals with the characters. You can be the most chaotic character ever, you just have to be portraited the right way, in a way that makes sense for the story. Also, we don't have to like the characters to enjoy a good story, just as we don't need to like people in real life to respect them.

Claudia: Movies are almost always about characters. You must connect with them. Look at Breaking Bad or Mad Men. Unlikeable, even evil characters, but... compelling. You somehow identify, even like them in a way. Plot is really secondary. Weiting villains is not easy, since I'm such a nice guy.

@@scottslotterbeck3796 I think it depends on the person and the story some stories are more plot driven some stories are character driven. I don't think that applies to everyone I don't mind hating and disliking a character, I don't need to root for a character to enjoy a film. I lot of the films I like is where I find characters that I don't like or can even relate to. But I still like the show/film because they are well written. For example in squid game I hate the protagonist even though most people like him and justify and gloss over his actions because he is the main character and all smiley and does some (meaningless kind things) and is a father so they gloss over the countless bad things he actually does band how hypocritical he is. Whilst I don't root for the antagonists the child hood friend (and squid game creators) I liked him more. My favourite characters were the North Korean girl, the cop and the "crazy" lady.

@@scottslotterbeck3796 This is basically what she wrote, dude. LMAO.

@@rene3759 Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

been saying that for so long

Action movies in general aren't realistic but a lot of the action in them especially when if its practical effects and in your example basically hand to hand combat is suppose to look pretty realistic to an extent. So that should translate in a female lead action film with a believable female lead like Gina Carano, Ronda Rousey or Charlize Theron. The only time its ever acceptable for both sexes is if the film is just silly, campy and poking fun at itself like the the 2000's Charlie's Angels movies or the dumb martial artists films of the 70's and 80's.

@@taliamason7986 yeah I value well performed fight scenes as well. But in this case people were complaining that it wouldn't be realistic that they would be able to do it 🙄 not that it looked unrealistic

@@Clara-in1fu It boils purely down to believability at the end of day. Kristen Stewart isn't remotely believable taking on who knows how many men twice even 3x her size or just fighting period because she has absolutely no experience doing hand to hand combat. Charlize Theron by contrast is believable because she has a military background and knows how to do hand to hand combat really well. You would buy into the idea that she can take down a lot of men around her size or smaller with ease because of years of training. Most action leads since the 80's have always looked somewhat believable for whatever they come across and whatever circumstances they face because the scale in these films is usually quite large.

@@taliamason7986 I agree with your point, I just think that the criticism should not rely on the woman's size (or more often, the fact that she's a woman) to say it's not believable, but only on the scenes and performance (as an example, Brie Larson is quite skinny so by looking at her you wouldn't really guess it but she's reeeally strong).

Exactly, the above comments are pointing to how male characters like the Joker are considered iconic despite being evil to the core but then certain female characters (e.g Captain Marvel) are disliked as if it's some hypocrisy when the point is that these stories are clearly meant to present characters as ones you get behind, but fail at doing that; either due to performance or writing or an element of both. At the same time there's plenty of beloved female villains who are surprise surprise... Evil to the core but it doesn't change the quality of their writing and the context their framed on.

Definitely a lot of women in media that act bad and are well liked. Azula was my favorite character from avatar back in the day and she has a lot in common with captain Marvel ironically enough. However she's not presented as the hero or someone who is virtuous.

@@themadtitan7603What hypocrisy. She's a genuiely terrible, unrelatable, real piece of shite of a character that doesn't act like a superhero at all no matter what way you look at it over the past decade since Marvel stupidly and unnecessarily made the decision to completely change Carol Danvers entire personality and character from what she had been for decades as Ms Marvel and was if you ignore the X-Men the most popular female superhero in Marvel for years up until Scarlett Johansen's Black Widow. Neither the performance from Brie Larson or the writing makes any difference because its draws almost exactly from the comics over the past decade when she became Captain Marvel after Marvel won that dumb and ridiculous law suit with DC over the rights of the name because originally Shazam was always referred as Captain Marvel long before DC bought Whiz Comics. Thats all on Kevin Feige for stupidly using the modern Carol Danvers absolutely nobody cares about in the comics instead of her as Ms Marvel which is actually a far better fit for the style and look of the MCU anyway.

You learned exactly the same about her as Captain America.

@@mysteriiis Really? I don't agree. He is written better IMO. We've had more movies with Captain America as well. If they wrote Captain Marvel just like Captain America, she'd be a well-liked hero.

@@mysteriiis I disagree entirely First Avenger spent like the first 30 minutes showing Steve as a character and his life prior to getting the serum. Meanwhile CM got like five minutes of flashback and exposition about how good she was for exploration

Yes, I've heard that too. I think that saying that that and "GIRLS" critiques had to do with the likability factor is reductive. There were maaaaaaaany other things taken into account.

@@Zeverinsen if they wrote Captain Marvel like Captain America, it would make her Captain America, not her own person. Also your logic ignores that these characters explore different stories. Steve was not someone kidnapped from her home planet and used and brainwashed and had to fight to figure out her own identity, Steve starts and ends his story knowing who he is. Captain Marvel is a journey about self identity and breaking away from abusive oppression. Captain America is the story of a kid from Brooklyn getting to be the hero he always was. Carol Danvers doesn’t need to be written like Steve Rogers, she’s not Steve and they are not the same kind of people.

@@Smartass012 not a big fan of marvel so I’d tend to agree with that about most of their characters lol, they’ve got some real hero’s but most are just propaganda hero’s promoting some aspect of hyper violent capitalism unfortunately.

@@Smartass012 So are Tony Stark and Starlord. Why is it ok for them to be jerks but not Carol?

@@witchplease9695 Both of them have a lot of redeeming qualities and the specific way they come across as jerks tends to be humorous and fun to watch. Carol Danvers by contrast since becoming Captain Marvel in the last decade has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. She used to when she was Ms Marvel and was a huge fan favourite for many years. Back when she was actually fun, relatable, inspiring and and acted like a superhero. The problem with her both in the film and the especially the comics over the past decade is she is a real piece of shite of a person that cares about nobody but herself, shows absolutely no remorse, or regret when she killed Iron Man at the end of Civil War II and is only just a big modern feminist icon now. Neither Tony Stark or Peter Quill are any of that.

@@taliamason7986 ) "humorous and fun to watch" No.

@@steamboatwill3.367 Clearly is given the sheer number of audiences and critics that seem to agree with me.

Hm I may have to watch that then

True that Arcane is a masterpiece 🙌

@@TheTasumiNagorashi ya go do it it's FANTASTIC

@@TheTasumiNagorashi just dont forget the tissues when you watch

I will listen to you and watch it, Hange-san 🙇🏻‍♀️

Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

@@baonguyenxuanthai711 people that hate Jenny aren’t very emotionally intelligent. Even watching Forrest Gump as a small child, I had no negative feelings towards her character. I felt bad for Forrest, but my heart broke for Jenny. Stories like hers are important to see, because so many of us can relate to what she went through and the damage it caused.

I agree with this, but only for the first season. In the first season, she was indeed a perfect example of flawed female character. But I don't think the second season was well-written, so I ended up disliking almost all the characters, not just but including Devi 🤷🏻‍♀️ Also, Brie Larson gets hate for almost anything she does and the reasons are always sexist, it's absolutely crazy :(

I mean, obviously that's what it is 🤷

This.

What if a straight woman says it? 🤔 Because I don't agree with what you just said.

@Madama Belladonna Often enough, but women either tend to complain about when the characters at unlikeable because they're just badly written, or not at all because they don't want to seem "anti-women", I suppose. We're also socialised to not be as vocal, so you can see why judging whether women mean something in a discussion based on whether or not they are the vocal majority (or minority), isn't always the best thing to do. Either way, there are still several women in these comments who have agreed with my sentiment, actually. I'm bisexual, so I don't count as a straight woman, but I still hated Captain Marvel and I think she's unlikeable because she was badly written. It has been explained ad nauseam why many people feel that way about her in the comments, but my biggest gripe with her is that they wrote her badly *because* she is a woman, and not in spite of being one. The problem doesn't lie in who does or doesn't find some female characters unlikeable, it really lies in the fact that big Hollywood writers just can't write actually good female CHARACTERS. They just write what they think are decent enough FEMALE characters and call it a day. People making it seem like you dislike a badly written female character, just because she's a woman, makes that 100% worse, because not only do we not get BETTER characters, but the actual misogynism that causes this problem remains untouched, and the discussion becomes unnecessarily polarised. Because male characters don't really have a box to fit in, they write male protagonist as people first and foremost, and THEN sort them into categories. With women they start with the category first, and then build a person later, like her personification is not as important as the social roles she fills. That's why so many female characters can feel hollow, disingenuous etc. Think about the difference between Luke and Rei. Luke had a story, struggle and a personality from the start. He had to grow to see results, he had to work for the force. Rei was basically infallible, a naturally gifted level headed master with sudden bloodlines that would serve her power further. There was barely any struggle or development, and to me it felt like a betrayal, because I wanted to see them do the same for Rei as they did for any other male protagonist: Write her as a flawed person who had to go through hardship and sacrifice to win. Not a picture perfect "feminist icon" who got everything handed to her by chance. And I use feminist icon in quotation marks, because that's obviously what they were trying to SELL her as. They're writing women as products for marketing, not people, and I hate it.

Kind of like guyd

Because no unlikable bitch exist

Thank you, I always loved Korra. And let’s not forget about the racism intersected in that as well.

I agree with this 💯👍

Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

"Ellen Ripley in Game of Thrones"?

I'm mostly disappointed that they did Captain Marvel dirty by trying to sell her as some morally flawless god, instead of a flawed human being with powers, like the rest of the avengers. Even Thanos had SOME emotional turmoil that affected the story (Gamorah).

and also: the other way around.

They did a video on the girly girl that dresses some of these points

And the closely related rise of the "nlog", which could be seen as being a result of young girls rejecting their contemporaries' "girlyness".

@@TiffyVella1 did you see the video on the cool girl? A part of that is the nlog

I think that's spoken about enough on the internet and them making a video won't exactly add anything new. But they explain it in a clear way so yeah maybe I'd send that video to people. While watching that show it was apparent that people liked Arya not just because "she's not like other girls" but also because she thought independently and didn't learn to care about being royal and all that jazz. She went against the grain ON THE SHOW but who hasn't seen a female character in a monarchic setting who doesn't want the restrictions of being a royal? I think Sansa was kind of a doormat for the Lannisters and easily misguided goody goody child so juxtaposed against the girl we love to see of course she was unlikeable. But both of them became deep and complicated as time went on and didn't remain the overdone character tropes we've seen for so long. And I hope the people who grew up watching the show and obviously grew in age came to realise that this "girliness" and "tomboyish ness" in both of them was just a way to express themselves.

I think that may have been bad acting

Yeah, but it's all about context. Because Capitain Marvel is a SUPERHERO, she needs to be likeable. You can make an unlikeable female protagonist but it has to fit the story, just as a male character can be unlikeable as long as it fits the story. The Zack Snyder Superman didn't work imo because he also was unlikeable and didn't seem to be bothered by the loss of so many human lives he should have been saving.

@@avidfather1864 Exactly right, Superman was really unliked, and inturn people didn't watch the movies.

Badass is great. But I really have a hard time to 'connect' with her. The story emphasize her overcoming limitations imposed by external things and be bold, free yourself, which is good. 'Control your emotion' become the gaslighting message, which is a good plot twist, although the movie should've show the difference between 'suppressing emotion' and 'channeling emotion into something positive'. The biggest problem is that I don't see her vulnerable yet relateable side that most heroes show. The dramatic scene when she found out her past fell flat. I feel that there should be an additional scene that should add some depth to her character. For a long time, I wish that Kree planted her a fake memory of her destroying a planet because she fail to 'control her emotion'. That would be interesting. Imo, Henry Cavill's Superman is also disappointing, that he's kinda boring flying brick.

Captain Marvel didn't face proper adversity and change enough in that film to be a compelling character. Like the other commenter said, they didn't do enough to flesh out the control/channel your emotion plotline. All of the most beloved MCU heroes, we have seen in great pain, and build themselves back up to the badassery and gravitas we see later.

If this is a problem, why are women trying to enforce the likeability standard on men?

@@Chris-rg6nm ) where?

Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

I would absolutely love it if a writer was brave enough to write a male character that embodied the characteristics of "toxic femininity" and vice versa.

lol you're missing their entire point. stop nitpicking.

you're both right.

I like the idea of both.

You can’t tell people who to like or dislike male or female

@@houseofmatrix6174 ) no one else said that, only you.

I never fell for Joe or found him attractive at all, for me he was always evil and really unlikable.

walter white is framed as a badass throughout the whole show and he is well loved for doing the things he do. breaking bad fans never really discuss about how 'good' of a person he is but more about that hes a badass character that everytbody roots for. where is the likeability? why no one complains about his lack of growth or self-reflection? or hs selfish psychopathic tendencies?

@@lucasouza889 Everyone KNOWS that Walter is bad, that's why it's not discussed. He dies at the end, because he became a bad man.

@@Zeverinsen no they literaly talk about white as a hero who wants to protect his family and defend every action he makes.

@@lucasouza889 Well that's just like, your opinion man.

Lol exactly

Because they're not

I get your point, but Peter Quill being snarky and Dr Strange having an ego to match his head don't really make them copies of Ironman.

I find this hard to believe, because men love Harley Quinn.

@@Chris-rg6nm They love Margot Robbie playing her so they can ogle her.

I agree with most of what you said, however a flawed or anti-hero trope type of protagonist isn't meant to "charm" the audience, be likeable or be "right" in the story, quite the opposite in fact. The anti-hero is supposed to be a protagonist, that you watch as they spiral themselves in bad habits that also, in a good story, don't get justified by the fact that you see their point of view and the anti-hero doesn't get rewarded like the hero would in a story with a good aligned protagonist.

@@artorhen ) sadly, a lot of people ( even writters ) forget that.....

@@steamboatwill3.367 yes, well i know there are writers that tend to romanticise the idea of an anti-hero or try to justify too much about their character as if the character shouldn't learn anything in the story, and personally it feels unrealistic to me, but to each their own. There is an audience for these types of stories as well, however I think for a wider audience it works better if the mc doesn't get randomly rewarded unrealistically for behavior that wouldn't go in real life.

@@artorhen ) unfortunately that happens in a lot of "mainstream" films ( even comedies reward tprotagonists for being idiots )

@@steamboatwill3.367 :)) Yeah, i know about comedies especially. Somehow that sounds like a joke in it of itself, since realistically it doesn't really make sense beyond just being cute on screen.

But being liked literally means they are appealing

You cannot compare any of them to her because she simply has absolutely no redeeming qualities, isn't remotely inspiring, isn't at all relatable and most importantly doesn't act like a superhero. Tony Stark, Dr Strange and Captain America by contrast all have redeemable qualities, are inspiring, are relatable and act like superheros when they are supposed to. Don't even try make this a sexist thing because Carol Danvers for years until the last decade was a huge fan favourite as Ms Marvel and very easily if you ignore the X-Men the popular female superhero in all of Marvel up until Scarlett Johansen's Black Widow. Whether you like it or not she is real piece shite of a person both in the film and even more so in the comics over this past decade and as a result she has gone from been a beloved fan favourite that used to very inspiring, pretty relatable and acted like a superhero to the most hated and rightly so female hero in comics in the last 10 years.

@@taliamason7986 your opinion is your opinion. your experience is your experience. my experience has been as i have put it. i actually do relate to her movie version. i have been told plenty that i shouldn't or couldn't do something because i was female. if you had a different experience, good for you but i can compare her to literally anyone i want to. i actually love tony stark and his arc and defend him a lot because my boyfriend can't stand him. i love what i have seen of dr. strange and cap is pretty hit and miss with me. now the video was about seeing a female character as different even when she presented with characteristics that male characters had that people didn't have an issue with so that was what i was commenting on. i wasn't going into a comic book history lesson because there are bad versions of literally every character. i love Hawkeye even though he started as a villain. i don't like Jean gray but love storm and rogue. my personal tastes. matter of fact, just last night my boyfriend told me about a conversation that started with a guy saying "i don't like female leads because i can't relate to them" so there are guys out there that say and do sexist things. in the movie, she learned she was on the wrong side and worked to right her wrong and give refugees a safe place to stay. that is heroic. if you don't like her for specific reasons, fine, but the video wasn't talking about that. i was sharing my experience about the topic at hand.

@@pyra4eva I already pointed out in the film precisely why she is disliked compared to those 3 and it has absolutely nothing to do with sexism. Just because a female lead character that has similar character traits to their male counterparts and is disliked while they aren't, doesn't at all mean its sexist. That's seriously surface level thinking right there and one of the biggest problems of modern western society over the past few years. The absolute inability to have any nuance of our thinking and critisms. Furiosa in Mad Max Fury Road also has mostly masculine traits and yet is beloved and praised by many audiences and critics of both sexes just like Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. There is only a 4 year gap between both films.

@@taliamason7986 you actually didn't say anything specific. you just said she had zero heroic instances and i pointed out heroic instances and you don't counter them. i was talking about my specific instances where,yes, the individuals in question were in fact being sexist. so what is your real gripe? because i didn't have the "right" experiences in life? i also have people say similar things about nonwhite characters which i again point out. it is not up to me to continue to provide proof while constantly hearing an argument without reasoning. i get to come to a conclusion based at the evidence at hand. so you do you, booboo. also i will add, you are correct. not liking a character based on gender,sex,race, ect is surface level nonsense. hence my point and the video's point.

@@pyra4eva I said she wasn't at all relatable, isn't at all inspiring and doesn't at all act like a superhero compared to Iron Man, Captain America, Dr Strange and another example some others have for some reason brought up Starlord. Superheros specifically have to be likeable, relatable and inspiring because they generally tend to represent the best of human nature and superhero stories especially in DC and Marvel are just mostly straight up, very simple good vs evil. This is something even kids understand and that's why hardly any little girl or older girl pre and early teen years can possibly look up to Captain Marvel beyond her sheer power when they are several far more appealing, relatable, inspiring and fun female characters like Wonder Woman, Rey, Ashoka Tano, Elsa, Supergirl and Spider-Gwen. If you grew up in my generation we had Ms Marvel, Wasp from Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes who are just awesome and has the best costume, Hawkgirl from Justice League TAS and Justice League Unlimited, Artemis from Young Justice, heck even Gwen Tennyson from mostly Ben 10 Alien Force voiced by the now very recognable and incredibly talented Ashley Johnson who is the most mature and throught out between Ben and Kevin until Season 3.

Btw, whats your opinion on Jenny from Forrest Gump as a character ? She is also a flawed female character that get hated a lot for the way she treated Forrest, but Idc what anybody says, Jenny is my favorite character because i can empathize with her due to her upbringing, there is more to her than meets the eye, same goes for character like her, Bojack Horseman, you can find their actions intolerable and still empathize with them, abusive upbringing can damage a person's mind drastically.

It's non-stop use of the word "misogyny" that makes you unlikable 😁

@@RisingUnderdog QED

@@RisingUnderdog Maybe when misogyny is actually and completely erased from our society, then the word won’t be necessary 🤷🏻‍♂️

@@alexrosette596 and maybe when betas are no longer around we can drop that word too 😀

@@RisingUnderdog the fact that you think “beta” is a thing and can’t even bother to write the word right, is a joke.

You act like guys don’t go through this

True.

so true...people hate Carrie because they see themselves in her

@@vickywambui2477 That's a very good point. Ive been "Carrie'd" and I've been Carrie.

I agree with all your points; however, I never imagined anyone considering Mary Crawford "unlikeable." I did imagine though that Fanny Price would have been seen as somewhat boring, sanctimonious, and therefore unlikeable/unrelatable in the way that a "Mary Sue" type character would be.

Lorelai, Lyn, Luke, and Jess, to name those closest to her, (besides Logan the dick wad, who I partially blame for her spiral) have all struggled personally and financially through life by the time a Year in The Life takes place. They've all been exactly where she is. Rory is reckoning with the fact that the American Dream and the milestones of adulthood achieved in generations past are no longer possible for most people in her age group and the generations coming after. It's a real effing trip when your *entire* worldview is shattered and you gotta pick up the pieces. Could she have made better choices? Probably, but "characters who make good choices" isn't a very interesting story

I love Devi’s character too. She’s very realistic and flawed but we still want her to be happy

@@madelinevlogs5898 exactly. im always rooting for her and im glad she's learning and healing!!

Always that stupid excuse for characters acting like jerks

She's not she kind of acts more like Iron Man and Thor