Loki sucks

9:20 I wanna better explain why distance is so important, since I realize that I did a pretty bad job explaining that imo. Enemy pathing and enemy damage dealing are one in the same, an enemy cannot deal damage to you if it is unable to path to where you are. Equally, enemy aggro and enemy distance are one in the same because in order for an enemy to determine what it wants to shoot at, it needs to check for how valuable the thing it wants to shoot is, and also determine whether or not it makes sense to get to the target compared to another. Each target basically has a gigantic radius around it, where it's "pathing value" will slowly diminish over range. In the same vein, each aggro level will also have a "targeting value" with a similar radius, though the "targeting value" is actually slightly higher for non-melee units. The bigger your target's starting value is, the bigger it's number will be at larger ranges, and this is why decoy is so powerful, and also why targets will shoot at you whilst pathing to the defense objective. Basically, "aggro" is the combination of distance value + targeting value (where both values are stronger the closer you are) and decoy just has the biggest starting values for both of these things, making it the highest priority target so long as you are not so close that your aggro generation spikes too high. The closer the enemies can get to the decoy, the less likely they are to switch to targeting you, which is why they can basically be walked up on and will entirely ignore you until you're too close. Every target also has a completely different falloff formula as well, a warframe's maximum aggro generation actually falls off after 5m, where they sharply decrease to a "medium" aggro generation, and that value diminishes linearly as you would expect; a defense target's aggro generation will always stay the same at all ranges, and actually has the biggest range of any target, able to be seen by the enemies across an entire map. Loki's decoy has a value higher than every other target (with the exception of warframes within 5m) for targeting value specifically, but it's pathing value is actually the same as a defense target but with a different rage falloff (it can't be seen across the entire map), which is why sometimes the enemies will still path to a defense target despite wanting to target the decoy. (example 13:25) The reason disarming the enemies makes them switch priority to the decoy actually has to do with the fact that you have reset their target entirely when disarming them, they now check to see what the best target to attack is since they lost their old one, and when they check, they see that the decoy now has the same pathing value and a higher targeting value, so they go attack it instead of the defense obj. Fun fact going invis removes your target value part of the aggro generation and silencing weapons removes the pathing value part of the aggro. Thankfully, there are caveats to this, such as enemies detecting corpses of their friends, but there are honestly more things to talk about like enemy "memory" and we're getting too technical already. Pathing value also changes based on how "accessible" it is. If the enemies don't think that they can get to an area, then it's pathing value is automatically set to 0, and the enemies will ignore the target value of something that they cannot path to unless they can shoot at it, which is why the decoy on infested can sometimes feel like it's "not working" when placed on elevation. Pathing value is just telling the AI how much they want to be in a place, if they ultimately can't get to the place, then they stop wanting it entirely, and instead want to be in a new place where they can attack something. This is why disarming an enemy is honestly overpowered, changing their AI to melee makes it so that pathing and targeting value are now the same, and melee units will basically swap off of what they are attacking (unless it's a warframe within 5m) to instead focus on the decoy regardless of what it is. back to 9:20, what I was trying to say is that pathing to where you can get LOS is less valuable to the AI then pathing directly to the target, because the enemy only cares about the distance value of any position, and not the target value when it comes to pathing specifically. The enemy has a target with has a higher priority, but since it cannot shoot at the target it paths to where it is closer to the target, instead of pathing to where it can shoot the target. Hopefully this is a better explanation, honestly Nova Umbral did a bang up job with this one, you should send this video to triburos on twitter :) TL;DR: "Pathing value" and "targeting value" together are what make "aggro value." Enemies prioritize getting close to a target instead of getting to a place where they can shoot a target if they have a target with a higher "targeting value" and are trying to path to it at the same time because they can't see it. Enemies with melee combine pathing and targeting value into the same thing, so if an enemy cannot path directly to the target they will ignore it. Invisibility removes targeting value, silenced weapons remove pathing value, enemies have memory of what they are currently targeting but they can forgor if you do some things like disarm or go invis.

@@piplupxpp ur mom

decoy dosent count as ally i cant get that effect with decoy

Yeah i disagree. Lokis toolkit is nice when it works but it usually does not. After years of playing him i think hes one of the weakest warframes ever made. Entirely reliant on good weapons because he has no means of killing without them. His only use is for cloak. And even then his cloak is inferior to Ivara, slightly better than Ash. Ash and Ivara arent weak ass eunich frames like loki is.

You disappointed me by not going all the way you coward "loki overpowered"😂

What a missed opportunity. He has to change it to this when he sees it

CHANGE ITTTTTTTTTTTT

He removed the "is", I guess that works too

@@zengp218he put it back

How does this comment not have more likes? 😂

It's called a turret.

​@Uthael_Kileanea I'm sure your a blast to be around

based wall latch duration enjoyer

The funny thing is he even touches on some of these points in his Loki build guide. Trib was actually the reason I clicked on this video.

well funny meme man is actually a pretty competent loki player his loki build is still relevant to this day

@@evinickbruggen6407 tribs' old loki and limbo guides are some of the best guides out there, they highlight the fundamentals in a simplistic way that makes sense to the average player, whilst being nuanced and descript enough for people to get the deeper underlying mechanics. His guides are a large part of how I teach both limbo and loki, I don't think there are very many good guides on yt, but considering how far the game has come and how much has changed, those two guides still holding up to this day is a testament to how good they are, even if some things are outdated by now. Nova did a fantastic job explaining loki in the modern era, and we can only hope that trib would be proud, he's a legend in the community for a reason

he just posted a new vid and its the opposite of this video

It’s funny too, because trib even said that Loki is hyper-focused on a dead meta, that being CC, and was doomed to fail in the long run. Even Trib thinks Loki is going to die and these QOL changes won’t help at all.

And yet even he overlooks Gara lol

@@kinsan89I Haven't been playing Gara much lately and you can pretty much dismiss that tierlist back in 2023. I will have a new opinion on her in the future but for the time being my thoughts on her is TBD

@@NovaUmbral she's my #1 frame, I'm just being a crybaby lmao

Baruuk in F is actually insane

@@sennsa510 bro thinks every frame needs to have an armor strip I bet

I'm always confused by low-tier Ivara - they do know what she exists for right? The blap bow. Because archons that die in one hit are a thing of beauty. If it big, it ded.

I knowwww. Ivara's fun to play, and actually pretty good if done right, Gauss is AMAZING, and Limbo can match some of the best DPS out there with Rift Torrent and the right build.

@@severdislike4222 Also she's just an amazing stealth frame, just with a slightly slower play style

i want what he's smoking.

Loki is actually invincible. Without invis. So with the stealth multiplier for melee, yes. Baruuk vibes.

Vibes as in design and general play. He avoids damage, disarms enemies and turns their attention away.

@@provaricus627 he's designed to be invincible and punch/slash enemies to death. Before we did it with the 8x invis multiplier, now we do it with invincibility. This is how loki is generally played. He has a ton of utility, sure. But so does Baruuk. They still play the same.

There's a big difference between baruuk and loki though. Desert wind can do way more than any melee weapon loki could use

knightmare frame on his way to make a build that only consists of psf

Depends on how you want to play him. The duration is pretty short and it can get annoying safeguard switching every time, so yeah I'd personally use PSF 100%.

Gravity rush pfp out in the wild.

@@nebulastar3087 yup love that game

That would be one of the highest honours, I Have immense respect for Trib.

I recommend you check out MCGamerCZ, his content as of late has been focused on taking underused/old weapons and trying to make them SP viable

MrWarframe Guy as well, he's really good at making unconventional builds work.

What the other guys said plus aznvasionsplays, he's the best build creator imo if you just want pure information, and he does lots of stuff outside the meta as well. He had an inaros ability only build with like 100kpm iirc lol.

Shows how little you use yours.

yea but Limbo I think gets a lot of hate from people because they play with an annoying limbo player.

main issue is that enemy death > crowd control. Loki is exclusively a “play me for fun” frame since there is no content hard enough to warrant his kit. 🥲

​@@Jaesais and that's not because his kit actually sucks. It's that with the right setup he can make most content extremely trivial

Even the dps bros queen saryn can get G checked easily when levels reach a certain threshold but Loki can just make all content easy if you're not fucking stupid which a lot of these dps preachers are

And please note this is coming from a Mesa main. Loki is a frame that is extremely good but people say is bad purely because he's not flashy. He's effectiveness over sheer flash and damage

Still a shitframe

Not at all. If you get sniped, you still have shield gate and press 5 to go into operator. The enemies don't actually target you while in invis, they just run to your position in a straight line -> you can shoot them in the head while they do.

You checkmate your mother with that mouth?!

@@NovaUmbralwhat if he checkmates you’re mother with that mouth? ……………checkmate😂

Loki is trash checkmate

I watch his stream once he’s genuinely trash

frost is good tho

Frost with Icy Avalanche and Biting Frost makes SP a breeze - what do you mean?

Also limbo and lavos being c tier when played right they're a force of nature is absurd

@@kicsidudafrost is just Gara but infinitely worse

It's honestly amazing when you want to make plat. "Get this weapon it's amazing" suddenly rivens jump up by 300% "I use this mod to get more damage" now people are spamming in trade chat for it.

Reason why *this video* should also be taken with a grain of salt, as well. Loki could still use a buff to his power and quality of life, regardless of how much this video is putting him on a pedestal.

You good, dw

chief what?

What

"Was beating it" *what*

Get him OUTTA here!

You should have seen the full call between me and nova, I do so much yapping lmao, but distance is one of the most important factors for enemy pathing and it's one of those gameplay elements that most players just forget about. If a target has to choose between a low priority target that's 5m away or a high priority target that's 50m away, the low priority target will get shot at! This is fundamental, and when you start paying attention to it, you can start breaking the game, since it applies to everything. What makes loki's decoy so broken is that you can change the *distance* between a high priority target and the enemies, effectively giving you full control over the enemy pathing and thus making a mission easier for your team

@@nev546 unfortunately I did move from one squishy boy (Loki) to another squishy boy (limbo) but if I ever go back to my original golden sneaker this is stuff I'll try to remember

How about Lokis damage decoy

Forgot to mention this

​@@NovaUmbral definitely one of the most underrated and overlooked parts of Chaos that made Nyx one of my all-time favorites. I even have the statue they sold of her

Just saw the other clip, the one they used in the dev workshop didn't show it properly, definitely excited