Pinned post for Q&A :)

I'm just imagining a couple of British engineers drunk at a pub " Oi m8, what if we just mount a battleship gun on a submarine"

02:11 "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe. * sniff * Maybe. I have yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - The Heavy

It’s honestly terrifying that so many submarine’s stories end with the words “Something went wrong.”

Honestly the point blank heavy artillery idea has merit in a time where underwater detection is still in its infancy. Imagine being particularly daring and surfacing off the bow of a battleship and putting a 12 inch shell right into the bridge as a opening shot.

Fun fact. I served in the RN from 1972 until 1994 and my early days were as a sonar operator. M2 was frequently used as a sonar target for training when at Portland by all ships doing workup. Echo sounder runs would show the distinct outline of the vessel. M1 was also used but less frequently as she was nearer to Start Point and to the West of the Portland exercise areas.

In 1923 the 12" gun on M1 had its muzzle blown off during firing trials near Gibraltar, due to water leaking into the barrel while submerged. The muzzle remained attached to the rest of the gun by the wire winding, which unwound as the muzzle sank to the seabed, leaving the submarine anchored by its own gun.

Great video Drach. It's depressing how many of the early subs you cover where you say something along the lines of 'Unfortunately, something went wrong with something, and she was lost with all hands.' Those men had amazing courage.

Making the K class look sane by comparison RN submarine designers were on something big time during WW1

So uhhh, putting this out there in case anybody wants to know about it, but I love talking about one of my favourite wrecks! The M2 is probably one of the most famous shipwrecks on the English South Coast. Shes at a depth of about 30-35m to seabed, but shes not in her original resting place. This is due to the works of a man named Ernest Cox (of Cox and Danks). This man is both the greatest thing to ever happen to marine salvage (he raised roughly 30 of the High Seas fleet wrecks in Scapa Flow, pioneering methods that are now the forefront of modern salvage), and also the worst person to ever happen to recreational diving (see the previous statement.) After a week of searching for the wreck, the royal navy tried unsuccessfully to raise her, and then called in the technical expertise of Cox to bring the wreck back to the surface. He went about it in his typical style - first welding big holes shut (IE all hatch covers etc). Where he thought he would get problems, he instructed divers to place specially designed tampions - some of which are still semi intact if you know where to look. Then he pumped enough air to make her buoyant and she would shoot to the surface... the hatches would blow open and she would sink again. This happened twice. I assume he felt he was running into another Hindenburg situation (she had breached and sank numerous times, and eventually lead him to quit scapa flow ops), he reverted to his old option; tidal lifting. Using two salvage barges, cables were lowered underneath the wreck, and then pulled taught at low tide. As the tide came up, so did the wreck, and then they would be able to winch in (the suction of the seabed being broken). Things were going well, and after several days of slow winching, she was resting just 6m from the surface in her cradles. And then the local weather system that exists around Portland did its thing. A gale seemingly blew up from nowhere, and in the increasing swell, the decision was made to cut her loose, allowing her to sink for a 4th and final time. Settling into silt, she became effectively vacuumed into place, and on top of that Cox was running out of money - his divers had spent the best part of a year on site, with over 1500 dives onto the one wreck, and he needed to get other salvage operations underway to make some profit. And so she was left to rest quietly (other than visits from divers). Nowadays, as I said, she is one of the most famous diving attractions on the South Coast. She is one of the most intact submarines out there - she's completely together, and whilst the deck is finally starting to fall apart, the only thing that has gone from the wreck since the salvage efforts is the gibbet for lifting the Parnall Peto seaplane back onto the deck - this fell off in the mid 2010s). I've always said that she looks as if she is still in service - just waiting quietly for her prey. The conning tower is magnificent - still there in full regalia. most of the instruments are still there, covered by nearly over 80 years of rust and biological growth, but still there. Her clipped stalks of her periscopes still stand tall. You can still enter the hangar and see where the seaplane once would have been stored, and follow the hydraulic catapult along the foredeck, all the way past her forward dive planes, anchors and to the 6 rather imposing 18in torpedo tubes (I never realised how big an 18in torpedo was until I looked at the closed hatches for them!). Going back, you go past the retracted 3in deck cannon (admittedly it takes a twisted mind to work out how it would come together), all the way back to the rear dive planes, the propeller stalks (the props were removed during salvage efforts), and to the skeletal remains of the rudder. She is one of the prettiest wrecks on the south coast, and because of her story, one of the most haunting in my opinion. Conditions often make it quite a spooky wreck - I've never been on it on a nice sunny, well lit day, only ever dark days, and it really feels like you are surrounded by the unfortunate 58 men who take their rest upon her. If anyones interested, I can talk for days about this wreck, with pictures in the discord or something :) (Might as well put the nearly two hundred hours I have on that wreck to good use!) Sorry for the hijack, Drach!! Also thanks for the bit about the WNT - it grinds gears when people say the M2 and M3 were repurposed because of them!

I have dived on the M2, it is just deep enough to have not been smashed to bits by the sea and not too deep to give you a reasonable time on the wreck.

I see the M class as naval equivalents of the multi-turreted heavy tanks from the Twenties and Thirties. An intriguing idea that had to be tried out to expose why it was not a good idea.

“Making the K class longer and wider”. Sure, mate. I want my coffin to be larger to let my corpse breathe and stretch.

Am I the only one to have a "Crocodile Dundee" flash back ? "That's not a deck gun, THIS is a deck gun". LOL Think about the recoil LOL.

There was a British seaman who actually witnessed M2 sink, but initially thought nothing of it and only reported it after he had returned to port and casually told an acquaintance that he had seen a submarine dive stern-first.

According to a book about submarines that we (my brothers and I) had back in the mid-1970's, what happened to M2 was that as the crew gained experience operating M2 they became better at opening the hanger doors just as the sub surfaced. One sad day they were too efficient at this, and opened the doors before the sub was fully surfaced. As a result of this the sub swallowed water like a thirsty whale and sank with all hands.

Is it April 1st again? Then I realized...oh, another British submarine.

It's amazing how many crazy ideas need to be viewed retrospectively to see them for what they are.

Ah, the submarine equivalent of a sawed off shotgun

M1, m2 m3, m4. You sunk my battleship!

Surcouf: I was made to give Marine National more cruisers without breaking the naval treaty. You were made by an eccentric engineer on god knows what. We are not the same.

Can't wait to see these and the Surcouf in World of Warships lol

I had a friend build the M-1 in 1/144th scale it was 21 inches long. and had gun on that shot a 11/32 ball baring. It could submerge and raise. It use Ferron gas as it propellent. It was so cool. It was found it could be easily defeated by parking over the submarine. until the time allowed in the game.

This submarine may very well be the greatest thing I have ever seen

A "sub- optimal" idea; and a great video 👍🏻

The sheer imagination needed by the RN to find new ways to try and kill their sailors is truly astounding.

I am always amazed at the creativity? imagination ? madness ? tried for various ships. The Bat Cave subs that launched Regulus missiles (Halibut) were the modern version of this sub.

This video made me realize that, like in your conversations with VenomGeekMedia, you could draw a parallel between the design and tactics of the Birds-of-Prey and these monitor/cruiser type submarines.

Thanks for the vid Drachs, been looking forward for this one about the interesting m class.

I didn't know Percy Hobart did subs too 😉

Amazing pics in this one, love the shot of it next to the Aquatania.

It always seems that the powers that be will take a basically sound design,let’s say a SUBmarine,redesign it to do something differently and expect it to function correctly…and when it fails wonder why.Cheers,Roly🇬🇧

Thanks Drach, you never cease to amaze with what you can dig up out of obscurity and turn it into an amazing story!

The M-Class subs absolutely fascinated me as a kid, and I read every source I could find in my local library and then the Internet and I’ve always thought the class were very innovative, if slightly cursed as all three seemed to have suffered a lot of bad luck. I’d love a deep-dive Wednesday Video into them, especially M1 and M2.

Before WW2, Karl Doenitz had his submarine crews train to attack underwater from 600 meters. Once war began, there were many occasions when attacks were made on the surface at night at ranges under 2000 meters. Some sub skippers even surfaced within convoys and attacked from there, counting on the escorts being outside the convoy. This is point blank range for naval guns of the era. So there might have been an use case for a gun armed sub, attacking at night, with surprise. Torpedoes can be expected to do a lot more damage than shells, but you can carry a lot more shells if they aren't too big. There are several things that would likely kill the idea. One is the lack of a modern fire control system. Another is the difficulty of firing accurately from such a low platform in anything but a dead calm. Yet another is the long reload time. The last is the doubtless extreme stress placed on the boat by firing a large gun. Sub hulls of the era, though not armored, were generally enormously strong, in order to resist the pressure of the water at depth. They also used rounded surfaces in many places. These two factors made them difficult targets for surface gunnery. The strong structure used to handle water pressure might have helped the boat handle the stress of firing the gun - though I am dubious. If anything, I would expect firing the gun to reduce the probability that the sub would be able to successfully submerge to operating depth without water coming in as a result of something being weakened somewhere in the vessel - perhaps a rivet coming loose or a welded joint being weakened? I would think the presence of the gun would make the sub an easier target. Fire against subs was normally directed against the base of the conning tower, because that was the location where shells were least likely to skip off the rounded surfaces - and this sub has the equivalent of a larger 'conning tower' due to the presence of the gun. Other issues are the impact on diving time (hence increased vulnerability to ramming and close range shallow depth charges or to later technology such as hedgehogs) and the likelihood of increased noise and reduced speed when underwater.

I have to imagine a surface ship captain, seeing an M-class for the first time, would be in the "what fresh hell is this?" mode. And overall, it seems that the Brit designers did a great job on the whole "aim, surface, fire, submerge" cycle.

The expression “lost with all hands” gets used so often it’s a wonder any navy can find enough people willing to man submarines.

It seems such a terrible idea to us now, sure, but "escaped the washington naval treaty by a technicality that limited the size of guns on new submarines, not existing ones" implies at least one major naval power was concerned about people building more of these things.

those Admiralty fellows back then, sure were wild and crazy guys.

3:11 That picture with Aquitania is stunning! 😮

When I see stuff like this, I actually can understand how someone would, on paper, think this was a good idea. And then I wonder how the hell someone actually built it without realizing their absurdity.

Nice picture with Aquitania in the background.

I'm amazed it took this long to get an episode on the M-class. Goofy wild things.

M2 is still available to vsit at recreational depths off the coast near Portland.

Yet another thing I didn't know about - tyvm.

Thanks Drach.

Oh my God I have been waiting for this for years.....thank you

I feel like if they had used a smaller gun like a 6 or 8 inch but then equipped it with some kind of revolver or magazine style autoloader so it had the ability to rattle off a couple shots in a row, with the close range compensating for the smaller weapon, that could actually have been pretty effective. Given that it's not a turret and so it doesn't have to move that much, the complexity of the rammer and such would be significantly less than on a regular warship.

Developing dedicated aircraft carrier subs and battleship subs would have been awesome.

I saw a documentary about HMS M1, the Swedish ship hit the gun and dismounted it. The mounting wasnt sealed and water poured in throught the mounting pin... they showed the hole through the hull where the gun was mounted and was considered a good enough seal.

Excellent photo footage.

The idea of a submarine surfacing, cracking off a 12-inch shell and then disappearing beneath the waves in under 2 minutes is honestly a bit terrifying. Given the state of torpedoes at the time, it's easy to understand why it would be pursued. If it had even a small chance of working out, the program would be worth it

A battleship submarine is a badass idea.

I've been waiting 5 years for this 🎉

I love these they just look so derpy. Like someone tried to combine a WW2 tank destroyer with a submarine. Needing to surface to reload their gun was definitely a huge weakness though. Still, shame we never got to see them in combat.

I adore the TF2 reference in the middle of a history lesson 😂

I like the M1 and apparently she was quite handy underwater. Luck was just against her when SS Vidar hit her. M2 is more difficult to defend - big open space a few feet above water facing the bow??? Mmm. M3? Well the RN learnt a fair amount about mine laying through her. Whatever way you look at it however, they were better than the K class. M1 was bloody unlucky,M2 probably sank due to trying to launch the Parnell to fast. Likely crew error. Compare that to the K class which really were deeply flawed and had a record that is highly unlikely to be ever beaten.

This is like one of those weird animals that evolves on a remote island and keeps going as a species not necessarily because it's good, but because there's nothing around to kill it.

I never caught that "M" stood for "Monitor"!

Question -- wouldn't the muzzle blast and recoil create tremendous opportunities for things to crack? I now that's not important on submarines................

I keep waiting for this and the I400 sub/carrier to be implemented in World of Warships. They have thrown every other hybrid at the wall, so why not these?

“This gun cost 400 thousand dollars to fire for 12 seconds” heavy

Orkimedes would have been so proud.❤😮

Ok, I want this in WOWS as soon as possible, right after MN Surcouf

Thanks!

Imagine that, a submarine named M1 (British, in this case).

When you started the channel, the text to speech app was our interface. Now, we would cry shenanigans if we don't hear your actual voice.

Thank you, Drachinifel.

I have not watch a video in such a long time that the intro music changed.

Awesome and informative video thanks Drach

Geeeze, that flat front of the added structure to the mine laying version (@7:52) has to impart tremendous drag. You'd think they'd just put a simple conical deflector ramp in front to limit drag.

2:11 😂 I wasn’t expecting a TF2 reference from Drachinifel.

A 5 Minute in guide for Sub fans today.

I propose the WW2 Italian torpedo boats, perhaps the Spica class Lupo and Sagittario.

a perfect ship for world of warship and war thunder once they add submarines

The moment the word "committee" was uttered I knew just how this was going to go.

Time to get to work on the chore list. Drach drop. Yes !

Ah, Swedish merchantmen. Accidentally sinking military subs, while doing their regular business, "Did I step on ye? Sorry."

Artillery subs. Like something from a Command & Conquer game

In hindsight it seems stupid, but at the time they had no idea how warfare would evolve. I think it was worth exploring.

Perhaps I am missing something but I thought the whole point of a submarine was to hide in the seas and hit the enemy while submerged- if your torpedo is not good enough make a better one ( the Japanese Long Lance). The thought process explains so much about the absence of capable equipment when World War Two began.

Here's a conversation that was needed. Ideas guy: "We'll pop up and use a big gun to sink enemy shipping." Navy guy: "What if they have a guy in a big canoe sporting a 2" gun?" Ideas guy: "..."

Reminds me of the Surcouf.

"This is the war ship Rocinante!"

It's not a bad idea, as such. Just an impractical one.

So like did it work? Obviously no combat service but they must have had some idea how well it would have actually worked?

Now that's a Submarin.

Looking forward to watching this....always fascinated by this submarine and it's big gun. It seems like it would have been a great success. But I guess not.

Few people know of the bizarre circumstances that led to Count Dracula being commissioned into the Royal Navy 5:27

Thank you.

I think this might have worked if they managed to design it so that only the barrel and the periskope look out of the water and they could reload while submerged.

I guess it makes sense that they would want to apply the strongest weapons of the time (heavy artillery) to as many platforms as possible, but in this case the result is just comical! 😅

M must have stood for maddening since 2 out of three were sunk by accidents.

A handful of the never completed Type XI gun uboats probably would've been useful for going at oil infrastructure in the Caribbean and the like. Overall the idea seems to be of very limited use

Reloading on the surface is a bit lame. It'd been awesome if the whole sub could stay under water with only the barrel and some periscopes poking out.

The 12" gun M class looks like what a tier one Warship would be in an old RTS

Search, journey to the bottom of the sea m1, for a great video of this

Just as an alternate history would the Monitor design of submarine work elsewhere such as in the Pacific islands or US coast or are they shallow as well?

A WW2 spinal mount gun. Interesting.

So ... Is the Royal Navy the pioneer of building an underwater aircraft carrier?